Hiding your necromancy

[Adindra]

So in a current game im playing my dm is letting me play a dread necromancer/pale master if my current character dies (i like my current guy but after another player delayed the game for an hour when he died i want to be prepared). The only problem i may have is that one player is a NG druid who sees undead as abominations (the main bad is a "necromancer" or we think he is ic and my new guy will be his former minion turned good)


long story short i was wondering if there were any tips i could get for hiding my necromancy so i dont cause any party conflict with the player, other than disguise or bluff?

[Jheska]

There are two basic roads you could go down.

The first is to use things like gentle repose on zombies, full suits of armour on skeletons, and pretend you have a legion of humanoids and similar at your control. This may or may not be less objectionable depending on how you treat them.

The second road is to be entirely open about it, show regret towards these necessary methods, implore the druid to understand the need for this breach of his code. Revel in your mastery and cast the druid aside as small minded. Conflict in views between characters isn't always a bad thing and can lead to some pretty awesome roleplay.

[Shadowleaf]

Have the character introduced as he is using the undead to build an orphanage.

Question the Druid's beliefs, and tell him that Undead are tools.

I've had some great discussions on the nature of the Undead in-game, stimming from having a player like your Druid be opposed of them.

[Adindra]

i like the armor idea for the skeletons and the player in question is actually one who does really well with ic discussion and weve already had almost an hour of in party talk last session thanks to a binder joining the party and binding tenebrious (he was describing the binding to use and im currently playing an archivist know it all so i explained what it actually was)

im gonna try and mix and match some of what you guys said and hope fur the best! thanks for the advice :smallsmile:

[Telonius]

Silent Spell, high bluff check.

Druid: "Hey, why are all these zombies helping us?"
You: ::shrug:: "Beats me, as long as they're not trying to eat us I'm fine with it."

[Ravens_cry]

Ingratiate yourself to the party. Be the helpful guy, make them some cool magic items especially for them, show that your character is a good guy by been extra nice and polite to NPC and PC alike. Then, slowly introduce the necromantic elements. Start with some small curses, and/or use Speak with Dead to glean valuable information the party needs.
Perhaps go on make a flanking buddy for the rogue or a pack mule for loot.
Every rogue loves a flanking buddy.
Everyone loves being able to truck more stuff out of the dungeon.
If the druid starts pestering you, remind them you are simply making use of a resource, it's not like the dead care about being reanimated, you will return their bodies to the soil when the party is not in danger.
Do so.
Be polite, be efficient, have a gem to reanimate everyone you meet.

[Safety Sword]

Have the character introduced as he is using the undead to build an orphanage.

Question the Druid's beliefs, and tell him that Undead are tools.

I've had some great discussions on the nature of the Undead in-game, stimming from having a player like your Druid be opposed of them.

Or, just call the druid a tool. And have the discussion on good needing to use all available means to combat the *whatever whatever*.

Role playing opportunities abound!

[hamishspence]

To quote Xykon from Start of Darkness: "I thought you druids would like undead. My zombies are made from 100% post-consumer human."

[Rubik]

Negative energy and death are every bit as natural as positive energy and life. It's not inherently evil, it's just part of the cycle. So long as you don't go using self-spawning undead, and keep your animating at a "reasonable" level (whatever that is), it should be fine.

If the druid gets extremely upset about it, call him (or her) out on it, that s/he is favoring one one side of the scale, rather than the balance s/he is sworn to uphold as a druid.

[Safety Sword]

Negative energy and death are every bit as natural as positive energy and life. It's not inherently evil, it's just part of the cycle. So long as you don't go using self-spawning undead, and keep your animating at a "reasonable" level (whatever that is), it should be fine.

If the druid gets extremely upset about it, call him (or her) out on it, that s/he is favoring one one side of the scale, rather than the balance s/he is sworn to uphold as a druid.

Animate Dead is specifically Evil though (as posted in the SRD, see spoiler).
Animate Dead
Necromancy [Evil]
Level: Clr 3, Death 3, Sor/Wiz 4
Components: V, S, M
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Touch
Targets: One or more corpses touched
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: No

This spell turns the bones or bodies of dead creatures into undead skeletons or zombies that follow your spoken commands.

The undead can follow you, or they can remain in an area and attack any creature (or just a specific kind of creature) entering the place. They remain animated until they are destroyed. (A destroyed skeleton or zombie can’t be animated again.)

Regardless of the type of undead you create with this spell, you can’t create more HD of undead than twice your caster level with a single casting of animate dead. (The desecrate spell doubles this limit)

The undead you create remain under your control indefinitely. No matter how many times you use this spell, however, you can control only 4 HD worth of undead creatures per caster level. If you exceed this number, all the newly created creatures fall under your control, and any excess undead from previous castings become uncontrolled. (You choose which creatures are released.) If you are a cleric, any undead you might command by virtue of your power to command or rebuke undead do not count toward the limit.

Skeletons
A skeleton can be created only from a mostly intact corpse or skeleton. The corpse must have bones. If a skeleton is made from a corpse, the flesh falls off the bones.

Zombies
A zombie can be created only from a mostly intact corpse. The corpse must be that of a creature with a true anatomy.
Material Component

You must place a black onyx gem worth at least 25 gp per Hit Die of the undead into the mouth or eye socket of each corpse you intend to animate. The magic of the spell turns these gems into worthless, burned-out shells.

[Rubik]

Animate Dead is specifically Evil though (as posted in the SRD, see spoiler).
That's as may be, but there's nothing evil about it, or the undead it creates. It's just animating dead tissue with a morally-neutral energy, and the undead are neither made from evil, nor are they capable of moral thought.

If the DM decides it turns you evil, and you don't want to be, then just act like you normally would and ignore your alignment.

It's all in how you use them, after all. They're just tools. Just don't torment the living friends and family with them, don't commit other evil acts, and you should be alright.

[Autopsibiofeeder]

You will have to deal with it, though. No amount of armors and bluffs can, in the end, conceal your main trade. You will have to work it out in-character.

One option is to call the druid on the balance issue, as mentioned, but it is still very evil what you do. There's no way around that. You could ask him, though: 'What is more evil? Employing this lovely bear that has a right to a normal bear life as a tool to advance your goals, or just using those that already had that life, the normal bear life every living creature has an intrinsic right to? You might need a decent charisma for this, because you are of course lying because you couldn't care less :smallwink:.

[Ravens_cry]

You might need a decent charisma for this, because you are of course lying because you couldn't care less :smallwink:.

It doesn't have to be a lie . . .

[Rubik]

You might need a decent charisma for this, because you are of course lying because you couldn't care less :smallwink:.Not necessarily. After all, if you can summon demons and devils that are literally MADE from evil and still be good, why can't you be good if you use neutral energy to do good deeds?

[Autopsibiofeeder]

It doesn't have to be a lie . . .


Not necessarily. After all, if you can summon demons and devils that are literally MADE from evil and still be good, why can't you be good if you use neutral energy to do good deeds?

Well, please do notice the wink. But even then...he wants to play a dread necromancer / pale master. I just got the vibe that he would not care about the intrinsic right of bears on a happy bear life. Maybe that's just me, though :smallsmile:.

[Rubik]

Well, please do notice the wink. But even then...he wants to play a dread necromancer / pale master. I just got the vibe that he would not care about the intrinsic right of bears on a happy bear life. Maybe that's just me, though :smallsmile:.Well, as long as the bear was dead to begin with. Waste not, want not, and all that.

Don't go murdering things just to undeadify them, and you're better off. And let them rest eventually, so they nourish the earth.

[hamishspence]

That's as may be, but there's nothing evil about it, or the undead it creates. It's just animating dead tissue with a morally-neutral energy, and the undead are neither made from evil, nor are they capable of moral thought.

If the DM decides it turns you evil, and you don't want to be, then just act like you normally would and ignore your alignment.

It's unlikely to change a character's alignment right away- casting an [evil] spell is one of the least evil Corrupt acts.

As to why the spell has the [evil] tag- maybe there's more to it than just the negative energy?

[Rubik]

As to why the spell has the [evil] tag- maybe there's more to it than just the negative energy?I can definitely see creating intelligent evil undead as being evil. And spawning undead for wightocalypses and such.

I just have a really hard time seeing inherently neutral energy as being inherently evil just because.

[Autopsibiofeeder]

Well, as long as the bear was dead to begin with. Waste not, want not, and all that.

Don't go murdering things just to undeadify them, and you're better off. And let them rest eventually, so they nourish the earth.

But that was my point. The necromancer uses bears that are already dead, while the druid is risking healthy bear life. Now, who is evil? Ask the druid that question.

The charisma comes in because I think the dread necro / pale master is really not sincere here (when asking that question)....he'd backstab and raise a bear if it suits him just as well.

[marcielle]

False Theurgy + Spell Thematics: Clay
What zombies? Those are just ornately gothic golems...

Alternately, convince a necropolitan lawyer to pretend to sue him for his prejudice against the living-impaired.

[Coidzor]

make them some cool magic items especially for them

Dread Necromancers can craft useful things that don't scream I AM YE NECROMANCER? :smallconfused:

[Rubik]

The charisma comes in because I think the dread necro / pale master is really not sincere here (when asking that question)....he'd backstab and raise a bear if it suits him just as well.I'm pretty sure that's up to the character in question. It's not an automatic requirement for being a necromancer.

[Autopsibiofeeder]

You might need a decent charisma for this, because you are of course lying because you couldn't care less :smallwink:.


Well, please do notice the wink.<...>I just got the vibe that he would not care about the intrinsic right of bears on a happy bear life. Maybe that's just me, though :smallsmile:.


The charisma comes in because I think the dread necro / pale master is really not sincere here (when asking that question)....he'd backstab and raise a bear if it suits him just as well.

I never implied it was mandatory, Rubik. I implied every time that it was my interpretation. And in all honesty, it is not a very weird interpretation, is it? :smallsmile:

[Coidzor]

I'm pretty sure that's up to the character in question. It's not an automatic requirement for being a necromancer.

It's exactly that kind of unconsidered prejudice (http://dungeons.wikia.com/wiki/Tome_of_Necromancy_%283.5e_Sourcebook%29) that the designers were banking on, after all.

If you really want to mess with him, the Redeemer of Regrets (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9994058&postcount=14) takes advantage of the borked nature of Deathless to make a nice point.

[Madara]

Alternately, convince a necropolitan lawyer to pretend to sue him for his prejudice against the living-impaired.

This ^ deserves a cookie.

Also, I think it sounds like it'll be lots of fun RP. However, I once inquired of the Wizard's forum on how to carry undead. Bag o' Holding/ Portable Hole. Another suggestion is the summon undead spells, which are great for those who don't want an entire army shambling after them. (Plug: feel free to check out my necromancer's guide on this forum):smallbiggrin:

[Ravens_cry]

Autopsibiofeeder
Depends on how you fluff it, how your character perceives themselves. One idea I had for a character was an Oracle of Bones (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/oracle) who indeed took the utilitarian route with undead. Dead serve the Living, and all that, call himself a Corpse-smith instead of a necromancer. Was an affable, kindly fellow. His only weirdness really was a complete lack of hair on his body and a constant scent of myrrh and earth.
Did have an undead who was always with him called Jim.
Jim was always protected and never did anything more than carry loot and would often get first priority on patching up.
Jim was the body of the drunken mercenary who killed the corpsesmiths family.

[Adindra]

The evil part isnt such a big deal for me since my character is a former servent of the big bad anyway. I did buy and kill a heavy warhorse so i would have a mount so that may not come off too well but that is all premeet the party stuff i have done with the dm.

IC he worships Hel from the Asguardian pantheon (which is the one my dm chose) and i have the whole picked on as a child and she granted him the power to defend himself story so he mostly just uses his necromantic power to defend himself and to help pay the bills.

not so much a i want to take over the world necromancer as a i want to pay for my day to day expenses one.

(hope that wall of information helped at all :smalleek:)

[Laucorn]

You could talk to your DM about having a magic door knob that opens a door to your characters house where he keeps his undead until he needs them? Set up a cost for it and what not.

[Adindra]

You could talk to your DM about having a magic door knob that opens a door to your characters house where he keeps his undead until he needs them? Set up a cost for it and what not.

i actually bought a minion coffin ^.^ 18 corporeal undead in an easy to retrieve space and i can bring them all out easily i just have to keep it covered on my mount :smallsmile:

[Ravens_cry]

Dread Necromancers can craft useful things that don't scream I AM YE NECROMANCER? :smallconfused:
There has got to be a few spells on your list that can be used for magic items that are useful for uses beyond necromantic skulduggery.

[silver spectre]

...
long story short i was wondering if there were any tips i could get for hiding my necromancy so i dont cause any party conflict with the player, other than disguise or bluff?


As others have pointed out role play the discussion on the natural occurances of negative energy and undead.

Something that might help... animate only (or at least primarily) skeletons. That way you can say that you are using only what you need and still returning many of the body's nutrients to the soil/ecosystem. Not to mention you will have less of an odor issue to cope with.

If your DM allows outside homebrew I have a couple of utility spells I created specifically for necromancer type. I've had fun with them and I haven't found them to be over powered at all.
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=209989

[lorddrake]

I like to treat necromancy in my groups as a normal thing (as normal as stabing people with swords). Normally the evil guys employ the dead to do their biddings, but the good and neutral do it as well.

This comes from a famous RPG book and comic from my country that has a good dracolich. And a good necromancer. And a evil paladin. And lots of breaking the clichè.

And I specially like the idea of calling the druid on his dangerous ways towards the use of living bears! Living bears feel pain, the undead (as far as I know) do not! Free the bears!

(A Greenpeace necromancer would be a funny character! Picture lots of skelletons chained to a tree!)


Alternately, convince a necropolitan lawyer to pretend to sue him for his prejudice against the living-impaired.

And that is awesome. I'm your fan now. Can I sig that?

[Venger]

Animate Dead is specifically Evil though (as posted in the SRD, see spoiler).
Animate Dead
Necromancy [Evil]
Level: Clr 3, Death 3, Sor/Wiz 4
Components: V, S, M
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Touch
Targets: One or more corpses touched
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: No

This spell turns the bones or bodies of dead creatures into undead skeletons or zombies that follow your spoken commands.

The undead can follow you, or they can remain in an area and attack any creature (or just a specific kind of creature) entering the place. They remain animated until they are destroyed. (A destroyed skeleton or zombie can’t be animated again.)

Regardless of the type of undead you create with this spell, you can’t create more HD of undead than twice your caster level with a single casting of animate dead. (The desecrate spell doubles this limit)

The undead you create remain under your control indefinitely. No matter how many times you use this spell, however, you can control only 4 HD worth of undead creatures per caster level. If you exceed this number, all the newly created creatures fall under your control, and any excess undead from previous castings become uncontrolled. (You choose which creatures are released.) If you are a cleric, any undead you might command by virtue of your power to command or rebuke undead do not count toward the limit.

Skeletons
A skeleton can be created only from a mostly intact corpse or skeleton. The corpse must have bones. If a skeleton is made from a corpse, the flesh falls off the bones.

Zombies
A zombie can be created only from a mostly intact corpse. The corpse must be that of a creature with a true anatomy.
Material Component

You must place a black onyx gem worth at least 25 gp per Hit Die of the undead into the mouth or eye socket of each corpse you intend to animate. The magic of the spell turns these gems into worthless, burned-out shells.
so's deathwatch. derp.

DNs can't be good, but they don't have to be evil. go nuts pointing out the druid's fantastic racism and tell him to take it easy, and that it's rangers who have racism as a class feature, not druids. second the portable hole idea and if mechanically you are evil for whatever reason (vile feats, etc) remember that DNs have undetectable alignment in the event you need it, so you'll register as TN to all detect spells if he gets an NPC paladin to sniff around you.

[KoboldCleric]

I took disguise with my DM and passed myself off as a Druid and my skeletons off as golems which were made to look like skeletons for the fear effect. Worked out pretty well.

[Safety Sword]

so's deathwatch. derp.

DNs can't be good, but they don't have to be evil. go nuts pointing out the druid's fantastic racism and tell him to take it easy, and that it's rangers who have racism as a class feature, not druids. second the portable hole idea and if mechanically you are evil for whatever reason (vile feats, etc) remember that DNs have undetectable alignment in the event you need it, so you'll register as TN to all detect spells if he gets an NPC paladin to sniff around you.

I'm not saying it's the way it should be, just that it's the rules.

If you willingly commit evil acts, such as casting spells with the evil descriptor then your good party members (with appropriate Spellcraft checks, probably) have the right to cast sideways glances and do something about the evil in their midst.

At the least they can ask you to stop, at most they can stop you, permanently.

[Greyfeld85]

For those who are trying to argue the neutrality of negative energy, you're overlooking the nature of the energy altogether. You can say death (and negative energy, by extension) are just a part of the natural cycle of things, but the problem isn't death in and of itself. It's the corruption of life that negative energy brings to the table.

Negative energy is used to steal life, create fear and chaos, and twist death into something that isn't natural. A corpse left alone will decay and become part of the earth. Bringing it back to life unbalances the natural order of things.

Don't forget that Clerics deal with this sort of thing as well, where their alignment is directly related to the type of energy they can spontaneously channel.

And honestly, you're not going to just tell a druid "hey, maybe undead aren't all that bad!!" and have him suddenly turn around a lifetime worth of teachings and beliefs.

[Rubik]

For those who are trying to argue the neutrality of negative energy, you're overlooking the nature of the energy altogether. You can say death (and negative energy, by extension) are just a part of the natural cycle of things, but the problem isn't death in and of itself. It's the corruption of life that negative energy brings to the table.

Negative energy is used to steal life, create fear and chaos, and twist death into something that isn't natural. A corpse left alone will decay and become part of the earth. Bringing it back to life unbalances the natural order of things.That's resurrection magic, not negative energy. Seems to me it's actually worse, assuming you're not bringing sentient evil undead or self-spawning undead into the equation.

And even druids bring people back to life.


Don't forget that Clerics deal with this sort of thing as well, where their alignment is directly related to the type of energy they can spontaneously channel.And we all know that alignment makes 100% sense, all the time. :smallconfused:


And honestly, you're not going to just tell a druid "hey, maybe undead aren't all that bad!!" and have him suddenly turn around a lifetime worth of teachings and beliefs.Hey, he's putting living animals in danger. It's less evil to put dead ones in the same spot. If he doesn't like it, tough.

[Greyfeld85]

That's resurrection magic, not negative energy. Seems to me it's actually worse, assuming you're not bringing sentient evil undead or self-spawning undead into the equation.

And even druids bring people back to life.

Who said anything about resurrection? Animate Dead is not the same thing as Resurrection (or any of its numerous cousin spells).

But if you really want to compare them, Resurrection anchors the soul back to the body and heals the wound created at the point of death. Animate Dead takes forceful control over a body that's already dead and gone and forces it into servitude, outside the will of its original owner.


And we all know that alignment makes 100% sense, all the time. :smallconfused:

Alignment does make sense, when you stop trying to inject RL morality into D&D.


Hey, he's putting living animals in danger. It's less evil to put dead ones in the same spot. If he doesn't like it, tough.

This isn't about your personal conquest to make everybody play the same way you do. This is about giving tips to a player who is trying to avoid IC confrontation with a character who has a bias and hatred toward undead. How you personally feel about the situation is irrelevant, even if your opinion was correct. (Which it isn't. That's why it's an opinion and not a fact.)

[Coidzor]

so's deathwatch. derp.

DNs can't be good, but they don't have to be evil. go nuts pointing out the druid's fantastic racism and tell him to take it easy, and that it's rangers who have racism as a class feature, not druids. second the portable hole idea and if mechanically you are evil for whatever reason (vile feats, etc) remember that DNs have undetectable alignment in the event you need it, so you'll register as TN to all detect spells if he gets an NPC paladin to sniff around you.

They can't start play as good. They have no actual provision against becoming Good and don't lose their powers if they do so.


I'm not saying it's the way it should be, just that it's the rules.

If you willingly commit evil acts, such as casting spells with the evil descriptor then your good party members (with appropriate Spellcraft checks, probably) have the right to cast sideways glances and do something about the evil in their midst.

At the least they can ask you to stop, at most they can stop you, permanently.

Oh, sure, the Paladin's allowed to dictate what everyone else can play, up to and including just outright killing a PC that's playing nice with the party just because he pings as evil on the Smite-dar, but heaven forbid a player have a necromancer who is heroic. :smallyuk:

If that's the kind of people you play with you're better off without them.


For those who are trying to argue the neutrality of negative energy, you're overlooking the nature of the energy altogether. You can say death (and negative energy, by extension) are just a part of the natural cycle of things, but the problem isn't death in and of itself. It's the corruption of life that negative energy brings to the table.

Negative energy is used to steal life, create fear and chaos, and twist death into something that isn't natural. A corpse left alone will decay and become part of the earth. Bringing it back to life unbalances the natural order of things.

Except bringing it back to life is not what animating necromancy does. That's conjuration [healing] (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/resurrection.htm)

The fact that it's perfectly natural for some combination of factors to link a soul or a body to the plane of negative energy alone shows that it is not against the natural order of things in the multiverse that D&D operates in.

Negative Energy is destruction and entropy. It's no more or less evil than using a sword to increase the entropy of a system by decapitating a kobold and allowing the body to begin decomposing.

It's as necessary for living beings to die as it is for them to need to have fuel.


And honestly, you're not going to just tell a druid "hey, maybe undead aren't all that bad!!" and have him suddenly turn around a lifetime worth of teachings and beliefs.

No, but challenging his beliefs peacefully means that he's a **** (and probably his player too) and running the risk of falling if he goes psychotic and tries to get his murder on.


Who said anything about resurrection? Animate Dead is not the same thing as Resurrection (or any of its numerous cousin spells).

You did when you went on about bringing something back to life using necromancy.


But if you really want to compare them, Resurrection anchors the soul back to the body and heals the wound created at the point of death. Animate Dead takes forceful control over a body that's already dead and gone and forces it into servitude, outside the will of its original owner.

Detritivores take forceful control over a body that's already dead and gone and forces it into servitude, outside the will of its original owner by turning it into food.


Alignment does make sense, when you stop trying to inject RL morality into D&D.

Deathwatch is evil. It is listed on several Good Only PrC's spell lists. Your argument is thusly rendered invalid by virtue of designer incompetence and/or negligence.


This isn't about your personal conquest to make everybody play the same way you do. This is about giving tips to a player who is trying to avoid IC confrontation with a character who has a bias and hatred toward undead. How you personally feel about the situation is irrelevant, even if your opinion was correct. (Which it isn't. That's why it's an opinion and not a fact.)

Being the bigger man is a perfectly valid tactic. It just requires the DM and other player to not show themselves as unreasonable. And if they do, well, the DM's revealed that he's kind of a hypocrite who allows a concept that he's going to just let out to dry once it sees play and the other player violated the contract between players first, so he's kinda forfeited his right to complain if his character is killed and he has to make a new one. Sure, he's liable to just try to be a griefer, but if the DM is any good that'll get nipped in the bud right quick. And if not, well, learned a valuable lesson about not playing with them anymore.

[Diefje]

Druids love a good balance. You're just trying to do your part because of all those pesky paladins lately.

But honestly, you're just trying to help out the party. It's not like he's bitching about everyone using metal weapons. Or worshipping gods. Or making sweet lurvin in the bedroom instead of under the fullmoon with a whole group chanting around you. Just don't go around killing stuff just so you can raise it. Wait till it dies of natural causes (like selfdefence).

[Greyfeld85]

-snip-

I was actually going to respond to your post, but as I read through your comments, I realized that you were just being contrary and technical, and had no actual point rooted in reality.

[Ravens_cry]

I liked how in 3.0 the spells that raised the dead were Necromancy spells.
It feels right to me personally.

[Rubik]

I liked how in 3.0 the spells that raised the dead were Necromancy spells.
It feels right to me personally.Well, by their definition, necromancy is any magic that deals with positive and negative energy, and life and death.

So resurrection magic, healing magic, and undead magic are ALL necromancy, even if they decided to lump healing into conjuration for whatever insane reason.

[Sception]

undeath may be magical evil, but that doesn't make it unnatural. the D&D world is a magical world, and undead are a naturally arising aspect of it, a manifestation of underlying forces. Abberations are unnatural, a blight on reality imposed from without. Good druids won't like undead, and any character might be biased against them. Playing a necromancer can be disruptive, so you'll want to clear it with others before you play it (much as it's rude to show up with a paladin without any sort of heads up, and then make the game a hassle for rogues & other chaotic archetypes).

That said, there's nothing that would inherently make druids oppose the undead - there are various cannon druid groups in assorted settings that specifically work with the undead, seeing them as a manifestation of the natural forces of death - much as a fire elemental is a magical manifestation of the natural force of flame.

[Safety Sword]

Oh, sure, the Paladin's allowed to dictate what everyone else can play, up to and including just outright killing a PC that's playing nice with the party just because he pings as evil on the Smite-dar, but heaven forbid a player have a necromancer who is heroic. :smallyuk:

If that's the kind of people you play with you're better off without them

If I was blatantly casting evil spells in front of the paladin I'd actually consider it offensive if he DIDN'T smite me :smalltongue:

The paladin is entitled to behave as a paladin would, regardless of whether your necromancer is trying to be heroic or not.

Plus it's much more fun to be evil under that paladin's nose and hide it well than it is to just yell "You're ruining my role playing experience because you're a paladin" :smallbiggrin:

[Coidzor]

Plus it's much more fun to be evil under that paladin's nose and hide it well than it is to just yell "You're ruining my role playing experience because you're a paladin" :smallbiggrin:

Nah, it's more fun to ban paladins and other classes that make people feel like they have the right to determine without question or compromise how the rest of the group is going to play. Not even the DM has that right and yet people continue to surrender it the moment someone says they want to be a Paladin. :smallyuk:

Y'know, if you're not fixing them by cutting that part out of 'em.


I was actually going to respond to your post, but as I read through your comments, I realized that you were just being contrary and technical, and had no actual point rooted in reality.

This entire conversation is about technicalities. :smallwink: Skeletons and Zombies are technically evil despite having no more moral agency than a plow or sword.

Deathwatch is technically evil despite being of most use to someone interested in determining, within the RAW of the universe, who was in desperate need of healing amongst the dead and dying and who was just dead or stable enough for others to get attended to first. And technically evil despite the fact that it wasn't in 3.0 and was included in the BoED during the transition to 3.5 as well as the good-only Healer which is fairly well into 3.5 to my recollection.

There are many things about alignment which are inconsistent, no need for the technicalities you so despise. Just look at the books that go into detail on the alignments, the Book of Exalted Deeds and the Book of Vile Darkness. For supplementary reading, check out the Fiendish Codices. For really fun reading, hunt down some of the original essays on the subject of alignment by Gygax and shudder in horror.

[Ravens_cry]

Well, by their definition, necromancy is any magic that deals with positive and negative energy, and life and death.

So resurrection magic, healing magic, and undead magic are ALL necromancy, even if they decided to lump healing into conjuration for whatever insane reason.
And if you go etymologically, there is precisely one necromancy spell in the game. Rather a small school of magic then.
Reanimating a body is just like resurrection, except negative energy is used as the renewing élan vital, the vital force, and the soul isn't put the back in.

[Venger]

I'm not saying it's the way it should be, just that it's the rules.

If you willingly commit evil acts, such as casting spells with the evil descriptor then your good party members (with appropriate Spellcraft checks, probably) have the right to cast sideways glances and do something about the evil in their midst.

At the least they can ask you to stop, at most they can stop you, permanently.

oh, no, I agree with you, it's not how it should be, it's just RAW. I was just agreeing with you that it's sort of silly.

yes, but casting spells with the evil descriptor requires rather a lot of work to rack up many evil points (in the unlikely event your DM uses those rules) and if you do a good deed every once in a while you can hover around net 0


I was actually going to respond to your post, but as I read through your comments, I realized that you were just being contrary and technical, and had no actual point rooted in reality.

regardless of how you feel about the rest of his post, this part is factually true:


Deathwatch is evil. It is listed on several Good Only PrC's spell lists. Your argument is thusly rendered invalid by virtue of designer incompetence and/or negligence.

and by that I mean by using (good) and (evil) as game terms (spell descriptors) and not as IRL terms. deathwatch has the evil descriptors but is on the healer and slayer of domiel prcs, which are both good-only. it's a little weird since unlike healer's vision, deathwatch doesn't have as many immediately villainous applications. I really only see using it to sweep disaster areas for survivors, it wouldn't be much use in combat since you can see which enemy's bleeding most or whatever and for patching up party members, you can just look up from your sheet and ask who's lowest on HP (one acceptable break from reality I've never seen a DM disallow)

but yeah, mindless undead are like guns, they're just tools, nothing inherently good or bad about them, it's all the person who uses them.

links to gygax pontificating on alignment pls. I do love reading people arguing about alignment (http://www.llbbl.com/data/RPG-motivational/target176.html) but it's never a good idea to start one about it. alignment is sex, politics, religion and more all amalgamated. calling someone's favourite hero evil or least favourite bad guy good is a quick way to lure some trolls for a random encounter, but it's not good for much else. we do seem to agree that the (good) and (evil) descriptors are arbitrary at best, so can we agree to leave it at that? this thread seems pretty cool and I'd hate to see it get shut down

about alignment for your char: I know DNs don't suffer penalties for changing to good alignments, I just didn't know what alignment he was or what lvl (besides, there are few reasons to be good as a DN) and he doesn't seem to want to go rainbow necromancer (nongood, nonevil, nonchaotic. TN or LN it is) but there's no section about "ex rainbow servants" either, so technically you can ignore that too after entry. it all depends on how much your DM cares about those two pointless little letters on your character sheet as opposed to all the hundreds of letters of content around it and the roleplay off it.

[Lord Vukodlak]

Armor isn't a very good solution to hiding your undead. The reason being skeletons and zombies retain weapon proficiencies not armor proficiencies. So unless you awaken them you'll need some other option.


Plus it's much more fun to be evil under that paladin's nose and hide it well than it is to just yell "You're ruining my role playing experience because you're a paladin"

I agree being evil is more fun when there is someone in the party to be disguisted by your behavior.


I can definitely see creating intelligent evil undead as being evil. And spawning undead for wightocalypses and such.

I just have a really hard time seeing inherently neutral energy as being inherently evil just because.

Your assuming that negative energy is the end of the story for the simple undead but its not. Librius Mortis when describing the difference between a zombie and a flesh golem says that a golem is animated by an elemental spirit, the undead on the other hand is animated by an evil spirit and powered by negative energy. There may also be a difference between how you use the energy. Negative energy is death so using it to inflict harm to life is the natural use for that energy. However using that energy to create unlife could be a perversion of that energy and thus considered evil.


mindless undead are like guns, they're just tools, nothing inherently good or bad about them, it's all the person who uses them.
Skeletons and zombies are tools in the same fashion that Lemures are tools.
They can be used for whatever purpose the master wishes but the mindless creature themselves are born of evil.
An unholy sword is a mindless tool but is also evil. So saying something is a tool really means nothing in regards to good or evil.


Deathwatch is evil. It is listed on several Good Only PrC's spell lists. Your argument is thusly rendered invalid by virtue of designer incompetence and/or negligence.
Deathwatch can easily be seen as a simple mistake that was never fixed.
The spell means absolutely nothing inregards to the good or evil that other necromancy spells may possess.

[Coidzor]

Deathwatch can easily be seen as a simple mistake that was never fixed.
The spell means absolutely nothing inregards to the good or evil that other necromancy spells may possess.

The point, however, was brought up in response to an assertion that alignment always made sense in context of the game. To which I responded, no, because the designers even went so far as to make errors in assigning what actions had alignment in the context of the game.

[Rubik]

Your assuming that negative energy is the end of the story for the simple undead but its not. Librius Mortis when describing the difference between a zombie and a flesh golem says that a golem is animated by an elemental spirit, the undead on the other hand is animated by an evil spirit and powered by negative energy. There may also be a difference between how you use the energy. Negative energy is death so using it to inflict harm to life is the natural use for that energy. However using that energy to create unlife could be a perversion of that energy and thus considered evil.Flesh golems are made from dozens of dead bodies, whereas a skeleton or zombie is only one. And the elemental spirit is relatively blameless (Neutral) and in tortured agony, but whatever evil spirit resides in a mindless undead is EVIL. Tormenting evil is a lesser evil than tormenting something that isn't evil, I'd say.

So desecrating dozens of corpses and torturing a relatively blameless spirit is better than desecrating a single corpse and (possibly) tormenting an evil spirit?

I don't see it.


Skeletons and zombies are tools in the same fashion that Lemures are tools.
They can be used for whatever purpose the master wishes but the mindless creature themselves are born of evil.
An unholy sword is a mindless tool but is also evil. So saying something is a tool really means nothing in regards to good or evil.Lemures and evil swords are literally made from the essence of evil.

Undead are made using negative energy which is neutral.

Not seeing a valid point so far.


Deathwatch can easily be seen as a simple mistake that was never fixed.Possibly yes, possibly no. Gygaxian morality is moronic, after all.


The spell means absolutely nothing inregards to the good or evil that other necromancy spells may possess.This is true, although it points at more stupidity on WotC's part if they DID mean for it to be evil, but since it was never errata'd, we'll never know.

[Lord Vukodlak]

Flesh golems are made from dozens of dead bodies, whereas a skeleton or zombie is only one. And the elemental spirit is relatively blameless (Neutral) and in tortured agony, but whatever evil spirit resides in a mindless undead is EVIL. Tormenting evil is a lesser evil than tormenting something that isn't evil, I'd say.

So desecrating dozens of corpses and torturing a relatively blameless spirit is better than desecrating a single corpse and (possibly) tormenting an evil spirit?

I don't see it.
The golem is neutral because the animating spirit is neutral. The zombie is evil because its animating spirit is evil. Negative energy is simply a component in creating a mockery of life.
You can easily argue that creating the golem is evil as your imprisoning an elemental spirit, but that doesn't make the golem evil. "This thing... man... whatever it is... evil may have created it, left its mark on it... but evil does not rule it."
Though in the case of that quote the golem wasn't mindless.

However summoning evil is an evil act even if you intend to use that evil for good. So when you infuse a corpse with negative energy and imprison an evil spirit in its husk for your new servant. You are using evil.



Lemures and evil swords are literally made from the essence of evil.

Undead are made using negative energy which is neutral.
Your assuming thats the end of the story its not. I'll once again point out there can be the natural use for negative energy and a perverse use of negative energy. And if there is an evil spirit inside a mindless undead then its also made with the essence of evil.
Magic as an energy is netural but certain uses are considered evil. Such as summoning an evil creature or using spells that torture the subject such as wrack or symbol of pain.

[123456789blaaa]

If I may put my two cents in, good and evil in vanilla dnd are cosmic forces not philosophical ones. When you summon a lemure you are summoning a creature made from the cosmic force evil. This force may be extremely inclined to do acts which are philosophically considered evil, but the two are different. When discussing alignment it is important to distinguish the two. That’s why you can say that animating a mindless undead creature is evil. It’s not evil in the philosophical sense but the act is associated with the cosmic force evil for whatever reason. If you imprison an elemental spirit in a golem you could make a case for such an act being evil in the philosophical sense but by the laws of the dnd universe this is not associated with the cosmic force good or the cosmic force evil.

Sorry if I over repeated myself.

[Ravens_cry]

The trouble is the source of the spells is not cosmically evil. While a strongly negatively aligned plane is very deadly to the living, so is a strongly positively aligned plane, and neither are Evil or evil nor are negative and positive energy spells.

[Greyfeld85]

{{scrubbed}}

[hamishspence]

And technically evil despite the fact that it wasn't in 3.0 and was included in the BoED during the transition to 3.5 as well as the good-only Healer which is fairly well into 3.5 to my recollection.

Not that far into 3.5. It was in Miniatures Handbook which was published in October 2003, same month as BoED. 3.5 ed came out July 2003.

BoVD has recommendations that some spells should be changed and given the [evil] tag- including Deathwatch. Maybe the 3.5 ed team saw that, and agreed, but the writers of MH and BoED didn't know about the change?

[Coidzor]

Not that far into 3.5. It was in Miniatures Handbook which was published in October 2003, same month as BoED. 3.5 ed came out July 2003.

BoVD has recommendations that some spells should be changed and given the [evil] tag- including Deathwatch. Maybe the 3.5 ed team saw that, and agreed, but the writers of MH and BoED didn't know about the change?

Far enough for them to have read the rules if they were going to. So, incompetence and negligence still covers this case.

[Pokonic]

On how necromany can be made more gray in the PC's eyes:

I once had a wonderful game in which the party found a old man traped in a magical contraption. After freeing him, he promesed to help them one day. The party thought nothing of it.

A year later, we where fighting a literal army of orcish slaves led by mind-flayers, and they where attacking the last major city on the contanent. The gates where barred, the army was armed, and they where outnumbered twenty to one, and without spellcastes.

Then the vauge rumbling from the graveyards and great crypts erupted with the dead from five generations of fighting with eachother. Five generations of the local viking equivulent, some of the best fighters on the plane. The orcs where not entirely overwhelmed, but the party did manage to kill the one with the magical effects that controled them in the first place.

Turns out that the PC's gained a new respect on how long the DM can hold on to a plot point.

[Kane0]

Be polite, be efficient, have a gem to reanimate everyone you meet.


This. The better you are at interaction and your job the more likely he will have to admit your useful to have around, regardless of how violently he disagrees with your outlook. Also be prepared to fight/kill the druid if he still doesn't like you or what your doing. Tough luck. He chose one path, you chose another. If you can accept him but he cant accept you then roleplay away!

[marcielle]

Thinking more about it, Necropolitans are probably your best bet at convincing him. They are undead who more or less just want to lead peaceful lives and fade into eternity. They just don't trust the gods with their afterlife.

Another think that might help you convince him might be a slaymate. They are tragic stories of betrayed children and having one willingly follow you around cos you helped it expose it's evil parent/guardian might overwhelm him with d'awww.

Also, if the showdown with the cleric looks like it's gonna happen early, try to look for some Quell. They can turn divine spellcasters, shutting of their magic for an hour. You can even release them once the fight starts cos they hate divines so much they don't give a hoot about you till the druid is dead.

[Rubik]

Also, if the showdown with the cleric looks like it's gonna happen early, try to look for some Quell. They can turn divine spellcasters, shutting of their magic for an hour.Druids are divine spellcasters, too.

Also, find a way to sovereign glue a metal shield to the druid's arm if it looks like he's going to bearstomp you.

[Adindra]

Thinking more about it, Necropolitans are probably your best bet at convincing him. They are undead who more or less just want to lead peaceful lives and fade into eternity. They just don't trust the gods with their afterlife.

Another think that might help you convince him might be a slaymate. They are tragic stories of betrayed children and having one willingly follow you around cos you helped it expose it's evil parent/guardian might overwhelm him with d'awww.


actually my dm ok'ed the necropoliton and is letting me get a slaymate when i get the character into the game

[Lonely Tylenol]

Introduce necromancy to your druid the same way you'd introduce porn to your girlfriend:

Slowly, if at all.

[Sception]

Don't think of the slaymate as a hideous and tragic undead child. Think of it as a silent assistant, dressed in the same armor and robes you are, maybe jawa like. A slaymate is a special friend, and it's well worth investing in protective gear and a cloak of turn resistance for it. If it dies, you can keep the gear, and give them to your next slaymate (which should, ideally, be waiting in your bag of holding already).

Once you've dressed it in armor, given it a mask and shrouding robes, maybe doused it in some incense, there's no reason to admit its undead in the first place. Hit that thing up with an undetectable alignment each morning, maybe a gentle repose to keep it fresh if your DM is one of the many who house rules that as working. Maybe pick up a hat of disguise for it to finish it off. My slaymate wears mithril armor (just like mine), a cloak of turn resistance (just like mine), a ceremonial deathmask (just like mine), and stands next to me parroting my spellcasting gestures during combat. It's basically 'mini me'. If it creeps your allies out enough that they leave it alone or avoid thinking about it, all the better.