Strongest monsters you know [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

Yora

2011-11-28, 12:32 PM

Epic Level handbook has a CR 50 beetle. That should not be too difficult to kill for a couple of 5th level wizards.

Or a great wyrm prismatic dragon at CR 66, which gets just rediculous and is not based on any sensible logic. I think that may well be the highest CR printed in an official D&D book, but there are no borders for homebrew.

Balor01

2011-11-28, 12:41 PM

strongest monsters you know - in regard to CR.

It may be CR 1 but very strong for its CR. That beetle is good example of just the opposite I am interested in.

brujon

2011-11-28, 12:42 PM

Beholders are insta-death at their CR if played properly, also Aboleths.

Eldan

2011-11-28, 12:45 PM

Black Ethergaunts cast as level 17wizards. That's hard to beat, really.

Derjuin

2011-11-28, 12:51 PM

Tendriculos (MM1) is pretty ridiculous for being CR 6. It's not nearly the monster That Damned Crab is, but it's still out there.

Jeraa

2011-11-28, 12:52 PM

When played properly, all dragons in the Monster Manual are strong for their CR - but that was by design. WotC did that on purpose. (For some reason, they assumed the party would know in advance they were facing a certain dragon type, and prepare accordingly. So preparing fire resistance and cold damaging spells when facing a red dragon, etc. Unlike all other monsters, WotC assumed that players would know about the dragon before the ever encountered it.)

DoctorGlock

2011-11-28, 12:55 PM

elemental weirds, CR 12, CL 18 sorcerer casting
solars, you know em, you love em, chances are you got fairly roughed up by them at some point, CR 23, full casting, played intelligently the qualify for epic casting. Say ouch.

CTrees

2011-11-28, 01:11 PM

Revived Fossil Baboon. CR1, I believe, and will absolutely murder a party multiple levels higher.

3.0's version of Githyanki were a base CR1, and had at-will telekinesis as a 16th level caster.

The Saint template is quite brutal, as can be some monster advanced using "unrelated levels."

Your average housecat, because holy crap, it could straight up kill your average lvl1 commoner, or even a first level wizard that was out of spells for the day! :smallamused:

Yora

2011-11-28, 01:16 PM

Balor01

2011-11-28, 01:47 PM

Doc Roc

2011-11-28, 02:00 PM

Seconding Elemental Weirds. They can see the future. All of it.

A number of the swarms here and there are really wacky, some of them really deadly.

Chronos

2011-11-28, 02:01 PM

Solars are pretty powerful, but at least they had the decency to assign them a higher CR than their casting. Planetars, though, cast as 17th-level clerics (plus a whole ton of other benefits), but are only CR 16.

And a 4th-level kobold adept is only CR 1, but is almost guaranteed to single-handedly TPK a 2nd-level party, and would probably have about an even chance vs. a 3rd-level party.

ShriekingDrake

2011-11-28, 02:23 PM

That Damn Crab (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fw/20040221a) (I know it's already been said, but here it is with the link.)
Allip (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/allip.htm)
Leech Swarm CR 1 (Stormwrack)
Meenlocks CR 3 (MMII)

Even Bullettes, Stirges, and Shocker Lizards (from MM 1) can be all be very difficult in the right circumstances.

docnessuno

2011-11-28, 02:57 PM

Any dragon with access to 6th level or higher spells.

TroubleBrewing

2011-11-28, 02:58 PM

Seconding Elemental Weirds. They can see the future. All of it.

At the same time. God bless free-action divinations.

A number of the swarms here and there are really wacky, some of them really deadly.

The crow swarm out of ToM is hilariously deadly. Supposedly CR2, but if you change crows to Doves as given in the sidebar, they become immune to weapon damage, but they retain their ability to peck your eyes out on a failed Ref save.

Tokuhara

2011-11-28, 03:04 PM

At the same time. God bless free-action divinations.

The crow swarm out of ToM is hilariously deadly. Supposedly CR2, but if you change crows to Doves as given in the sidebar, they become immune to weapon damage, but they retain their ability to peck your eyes out on a failed Ref save.

Hold on:

Whisper Gnome Were-Murder of Crows Swordsage/Shadow Sun Ninja = Short Pseudo-Itachi?

Eldan

2011-11-28, 03:05 PM

Surely you can't be a were-swarm, can you?

TroubleBrewing

2011-11-28, 03:07 PM

Mordokai

2011-11-28, 03:10 PM

DoctorGlock

2011-11-28, 03:12 PM

3.0's version of Githyanki were a base CR1, and had at-will telekinesis as a 16th level caster.

o.O

What?
Why?
I hope someone was fired for that royally FUBAR addition. What was the LA back then?

Ouroboros, Great-Great-Great Wyrm Cometary Dragon

Yes, I know it's not what you're looking for. I just felt the need to put my google-fu to test and, if successful, share the result so others can witness what stupid creatures are out there.

Yeah, but if we are using immortals handbook nonsense we have to mention the neutronium golem, weighing in at CR 9700, and then someone plugs a level 15 build that can kill it.

CTrees

2011-11-28, 03:12 PM

I've been thinking about aboleths - what is so great about them?

First, as with a human wizard, blasting is a fun hobby, but not a productive lifestyle. All those at-will illusion abilities (at CL 16, for a CR 7)? Control the environment and use it to kill the PCs. Second, that mucus cloud ability? "Loses the ability to breathe air" is not the important part - the important part is that it doesn't grant victims the ability to breathe water. The aboleth may die, but it has the same potential for lethality versus CR that orcs with the recommended falchions do.

TroubleBrewing

2011-11-28, 03:12 PM

Lol. I love the Immortals Handbook. Monkeys, typewriters, and all.

Jeraa

2011-11-28, 03:19 PM

"Loses the ability to breathe air" is not the important part - the important part is that it doesn't grant victims the ability to breathe water.

An affected creature suffocates in 2d6 minutes if removed from the water.

Seeing as how you suffocate if removed from the water, its at least implied you can breath underwater.

afroakuma

2011-11-28, 03:20 PM

I've been thinking about aboleths - what is so great about them?

With aboleths I always hav this visual image of a blaster standing next to the water and just spamming lightning bolts into the water ...

They're creepy, scheme-y fishbominations. Dispatching skum, using psionics to their optimal extent, and of course being HOLYBALLSCREEPY. (http://images4.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20110621051015/forgottenrealms/images/thumb/5/5e/Aboleth_hidden.jpg/500px-Aboleth_hidden.jpg)

Mordokai

2011-11-28, 03:22 PM

Savage Tide is awesome, yes :smallbiggrin:

TroubleBrewing

2011-11-28, 03:24 PM

Read LoM for details as to just how creepy they are, then go read a TON of Lovecraft.

That ought to make it a bit clearer. :smallamused:

CTrees

2011-11-28, 03:32 PM

Seeing as how you suffocate if removed from the water, its at least implied you can breath underwater.

Implied? Certainly. Pathfinder's version explicitly grants it. In fact, for a long time I thought aboleth *did* grant the ability to breath water in 3.5, but if you look... it doesn't, by RAW.

Rubik

2011-11-28, 03:33 PM

Seeing as how you suffocate if removed from the water, its at least implied you can breath underwater.You suffocate if you're removed from the water, but that doesn't mean you DON'T drown if you aren't.

TroubleBrewing

2011-11-28, 03:39 PM

You suffocate if you're removed from the water, but that doesn't mean you DON'T drown if you aren't.

... Doublethink much? :smallconfused:

CTrees

2011-11-28, 04:52 PM

o.O

What?
Why?
I hope someone was fired for that royally FUBAR addition. What was the LA back then?

At home now, so I can pull page references. 3.0 Manual of the Planes, p174-176, and 3.0 Psionics Handbook, p147-148. CR1, At Will clairaudience/clairvoyance, dimension door, telekinesis, and maybe mage hand (yes in MotP, no in PH), as a 16th level wizard/psion. No listed LA's in either of those sources.

My first ever "munchkin" character was a Githyanki I made after seeing the 3.0 Psionics Handbook for the first time. The whole thing was a Githyanki with a sack full of throwing daggers, dealing "enough" damage each round, due to telekinesis dealing damage based on the weapon base damage. Would've had difficulty with DR, but I wasn't thinking about that at that point. Probably would've switched to fullblades, heh.

Rubik

2011-11-28, 04:57 PM

My first ever "munchkin" character was a Githyanki Do you regularly cheat in D&D games? Or are you using a different form of 'munchkin' than we use?

JaronK

2011-11-28, 05:13 PM

Generally you can make obscene monsters just by stacking templates. There's a lot out there that do a heck of a lot for their CR. Also, making Skeletons out of strong melee opponents results in very low CR enemies that are quite tough.

JaronK

Rubik

2011-11-28, 05:20 PM

A properly optimized level 9 astral construct is only CR 10, and it can take out level 20 fighters without too much problem, so long as they can't see through invisibility.

Eldan

2011-11-28, 05:21 PM

I actually just had a look at Beholders. They are damn impressive for their CR, with a lot of abilities you don't really have a counter for at that level. And CL 14.

Coidzor

2011-11-28, 05:22 PM

It may be CR 1 but very strong for its CR. That beetle is good example of just the opposite I am interested in.

Revived Fossil(Libris Mortis?) Baboons(MM1) are supposed to be very, very strong for being either CR 1/2 or CR 1.

I'm sure there's a couple of other things that the template makes interesting as well...

CTrees

2011-11-28, 07:06 PM

Do you regularly cheat in D&D games? Or are you using a different form of 'munchkin' than we use?

I believe I was a freshman in high school, and the rest of my gaming group were also high schoolers. My system mastery was not exactly fantastic, and I don't even know what houserules we were using - certainly, I know we didn't understand LA very well (I believe I remember someone making a minotaur or ogre barbarian using its CR as the total level adjustment). Further, there's a reason I chose that term instead of "high-op" or what have you. Ultimately, the way I play now is very different from the way I played in junior high.

Runestar

2011-11-28, 07:30 PM

The psionic mindflayer is still cr8, but manifests as a 9th lv psion.

In fact, I think XPH gave quite a power boost to the yuanti as well.

Also, would incarnum powered housecats count? :smalltongue:

A housecat has the following ability score modifiers: -8 Strength, +4 Dexterity, +0 Constitution, -8 Intelligence, +2 Wisdom, -4 Charisma. We can give a housecat the nonelite array without increasing its CR, and we'll assign 11 Strength, 12 Dexterity, 13 Constitution, 10 Intelligence, 9 Wisdom, and 8 Charisma. Thus, a housecat with the nonelite array distribution as given above would have the following ability scores: 3 Strength, 16 Dexterity, 13 Constitution, 2 intelligence, 11 Wisdom, 4 Charisma.

>Using Unearthed Arcana's flaw system, we can give the housecat the Meager Fortitude and Weak-Willed flaws so that it gets two free bonus feats. With three feat slots to spend, we can make the housecat take Shape Soulmeld (Airstep Sandals), Shape Soulmeld (Dissolving Spittle), and Shape Soulmeld (Soulspark Familiar). This gives it a fly speed of 10 feet with good maneuverability, a spit attack which deals 1d6 acid damage upon a successful ranged touch attack with a range of 60 feet as a standard action at will, and a useful familiar which is also a formidable combatant when compared to the housecat.

>So yeah, it's a min-maxed flying housecat that can spit acid and has its own pseudo-familiar. And it's still technically a CR 1/4 housecat. Make of it what you will

molten_dragon

2011-11-28, 08:44 PM

Ephemeral Swarm (MM3). A CR 5 incorporeal swarm that deals automatic strength damage that kills you if your STR reaches 0? Yeah, I think this qualifies.

tyckspoon

2011-11-28, 09:04 PM

Revived Fossil(Libris Mortis?) Baboons(MM1) are supposed to be very, very strong for being either CR 1/2 or CR 1.

I'm sure there's a couple of other things that the template makes interesting as well...

Revived Fossil (anything low HD), really- the main points of interest are that the template grants a huge amount of Natural Armor, DR 10/Adamantine, usually increased claw damage (it uses a pretty generous damage-by-size chart) and doesn't have an actual CR adjustment; instead, it sets the creature's CR based on how many HD it started with. A 1/2 HD Cat becomes a CR 1/3 fossil; the 1 HD Baboon becomes a CR 1 fossil... which means it's theoretically a good match for a level 1 party, with it's 20+ AC and unbreakable DR, and you can use *3* of the cats! It's totally fair and by the book, honest, that wasn't supposed to TPK at all.

Wyntonian

2011-11-28, 09:08 PM

A housecat has the following ability score modifiers: -8 Strength, +4 Dexterity, +0 Constitution, -8 Intelligence, +2 Wisdom, -4 Charisma. We can give a housecat the nonelite array without increasing its CR, and we'll assign 11 Strength, 12 Dexterity, 13 Constitution, 10 Intelligence, 9 Wisdom, and 8 Charisma. Thus, a housecat with the nonelite array distribution as given above would have the following ability scores: 3 Strength, 16 Dexterity, 13 Constitution, 2 intelligence, 11 Wisdom, 4 Charisma.

>Using Unearthed Arcana's flaw system, we can give the housecat the Meager Fortitude and Weak-Willed flaws so that it gets two free bonus feats. With three feat slots to spend, we can make the housecat take Shape Soulmeld (Airstep Sandals), Shape Soulmeld (Dissolving Spittle), and Shape Soulmeld (Soulspark Familiar). This gives it a fly speed of 10 feet with good maneuverability, a spit attack which deals 1d6 acid damage upon a successful ranged touch attack with a range of 60 feet as a standard action at will, and a useful familiar which is also a formidable combatant when compared to the housecat.

>So yeah, it's a min-maxed flying housecat that can spit acid and has its own pseudo-familiar. And it's still technically a CR 1/4 housecat. Make of it what you will

Don't you need an intelligence of more than three to take feats? The kitteh in question has 2. Interesting, though.

Rubik

2011-11-28, 09:10 PM

Don't you need an intelligence of more than three to take feats? The kitteh in question has 2. Interesting, though.Nope. You have to have an Int of at least 1. No -- Int constructs, vermin, or undead!

Tokuhara

2011-11-28, 09:11 PM

The psionic mindflayer is still cr8, but manifests as a 9th lv psion.

In fact, I think XPH gave quite a power boost to the yuanti as well.

Also, would incarnum powered housecats count? :smalltongue:

You sick sick sick person... Incarnum Housecat...What will the crazy kids think of next? an Incarnate Construct Dragonborn Warforged Scout Were-Murder of Crows?

Qwertystop

2011-11-28, 09:16 PM

Teratomorph.

It's a Gargantuan Ooze. With an aura like an epic-ized Rod of Wonder. Including Plane Shifts.

Lateral

2011-11-28, 09:20 PM

Darktentacles can be pretty brutal- twelve arms that can all wield weapons? They can kick some major ass.

Incanur

2011-11-28, 09:54 PM

solars, you know em, you love em, chances are you got fairly roughed up by them at some point, CR 23, full casting, played intelligently the qualify for epic casting. Say ouch.

The party in one campaign I DMed for didn't have much trouble with the solars they fought. Was a group of epic casters, though, so that's no great surprise.

Upon reading Lost Empires of Faerun the other day, I noticed the foulwing. The massive beast seems rather strong for CR 5. Not overwhelmingly so, but it's got solid breath weapon, a crush/blood drain ability, and full attack likely to murder most fifth-level PCs.

For monster truly outside its rating of CR 5, see the Ibrandlin (http://www.realmshelps.net/cgi-bin/mainlistal.pl?name=Ibranlin&suba=I&subc=Dragon).

sonofzeal

2011-11-28, 10:06 PM

Hydras are massively deadly if the party is landbound and in reach. They're sort of a binary between "harmless" and "where's my spleen", depending on whether they get to attack at all. Super-charge with a large number of heads is not to be underestimated!

Delcor

2011-11-28, 10:13 PM

I believe that adamantine horrors are horribly under CRed, they are CR 9 and can do implosion/disintegrate at will.

Oops, I should have read the OP, you covered this :smallredface:

Rubik

2011-11-28, 10:19 PM

Zaq

2011-11-28, 10:27 PM

Cranium rat swarm. Just . . . cranium rat swarm. That thing is BAD NEWS.

Teratomorph.

It's a Gargantuan Ooze. With an aura like an epic-ized Rod of Wonder. Including Plane Shifts.

Man, screw teratomorphs. We ran into one once. It took us MONTHS to get back to the plot we started on.

MesiDoomstalker

2011-11-28, 10:32 PM

Man, screw teratomorphs. We ran into one once. It took us MONTHS to get back to the plot we started on.

Aboleths love Oozes. Except Tetramorphs. They consider complete evactuation and relocation of an entire city over dealing with one if one shows up.

Rubik

2011-11-28, 10:33 PM

Aboleths love Oozes. Except Tetramorphs. They consider complete evactuation and relocation of an entire city over dealing with one if one shows up.I'm pretty sure 'evacuation' is where oozes come from in the first place.

Madara

2011-11-28, 10:38 PM

Tuckers Kobolds... nuff said

Calanon

2011-11-28, 10:47 PM

Ouroboros, Great-Great-Great Wyrm Cometary Dragon (http://d20npcs.wikia.com/wiki/Ouroboros,_Great-Great-Great_Wyrm_Cometary_Dragon)

Yes, I know it's not what you're looking for. I just felt the need to put my google-fu to test and, if successful, share the result so others can witness what stupid creatures are out there.

I think you just gave me something that is more powerful then a god :smallconfused: ...Now the question is how do I use it to KILL a god? :smallamused:

Anarion

2011-11-28, 10:54 PM

Tuckers Kobolds... nuff said

Kobolds aren't hard for their CR though, Tucker's kobolds simply involves playing them extremely intelligently (and frankly, probably too intelligently for their listed stats).

If you want to be evil as a DM without breaking suspension of disbelief, I'd say any monster with an int score of 18 or higher. That represents genius levels of human intelligence, which means you're totally justified in setting diabolical traps for the party, using divination to perfectly counter their abilities, and having backup plans for your backup plans.

In terms of specific monsters, I think the top end demons, devils, and angels are really tough if you play them to their full strength. Look at the Balor: at-will greater teleport, insanity, and dominate monster all with really high save DCs. Granted, the players can obtain protection from most spells (certainly from mind-affecting stuff), but if the party is too tough, you can always have the balor teleport around the countryside dominating everything it comes across and then confront the PCs with an army.

Edit: If you're looking for highest CRs ever, Death (http://d20npcs.wikia.com/wiki/Death,_CR_373) is stronger than Ourobouros.

Rubik

2011-11-28, 10:59 PM

Kobolds aren't hard for their CR though, Tucker's kobolds simply involves playing them extremely intelligently (and frankly, probably too intelligently for their listed stats).

If you want to be evil as a DM without breaking suspension of disbelief, I'd say any monster with an int score of 18 or higher. That represents genius levels of human intelligence, which means you're totally justified in setting diabolical traps for the party, using divination to perfectly counter their abilities, and having backup plans for your backup plans.All it takes is one decently-Int'd kobold with several ranks in Craft: Trapmaking and lots of bonuses. It'd be easy enough for, say, a kobold shaper 5 to take 10 to get into the 40s if he specializes well enough, then have the other kobolds follow fairly simple instructions.

There was a post somewhere...

Ah, yes. this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=8664950#post8664950) and some later in the thread.

kardar233

2011-11-29, 12:03 AM

Edit: If you're looking for highest CRs ever, Death (http://d20npcs.wikia.com/wiki/Death,_CR_373) is stronger than Ourobouros.

Madder things have been made by man. (http://www.enworld.org/forum/2873260-post1.html)

Zaq

2011-11-29, 12:03 AM

Good hell. I just read through Monsters of Faerun, after Incanur mentioned the ibrandlin. Check out the malaugrym. What CR would you give a creature with Shapechange (CL 20) as an at-will ability? Got it? OK, now guess what the printed CR is. Go on, guess.

Four. CR 4. At-will CL 20 Shapechange. CR 4.

It has other abilities too, but really, after CL 20 at-will Shapechange, nothing else matters.

I'm going to say that this is worse than the Adamantine Horror.

Calanon

2011-11-29, 12:19 AM

Madder things have been made by man. (http://www.enworld.org/forum/2873260-post1.html)

WHAT IS THIS!? I DON'T EVEN! :eek:

sonofzeal

2011-11-29, 12:34 AM

Why has nobody posted Lavos (http://d20npcs.wikia.com/wiki/Brobdignagian_Teratoid_Tarrasque) yet?

Good hell. I just read through Monsters of Faerun, after Incanur mentioned the ibrandlin. Check out the malaugrym. What CR would you give a creature with Shapechange (CL 20) as an at-will ability? Got it? OK, now guess what the printed CR is. Go on, guess.

Four. CR 4. At-will CL 20 Shapechange. CR 4.

It has other abilities too, but really, after CL 20 at-will Shapechange, nothing else matters.

I'm going to say that this is worse than the Adamantine Horror.
Thank you for killing one more piece of my faith in humanity.

kardar233

2011-11-29, 12:36 AM

Why has nobody posted Lavos (http://d20npcs.wikia.com/wiki/Brobdignagian_Teratoid_Tarrasque) yet?

A'tuin beats that, and it doesn't even compare to a whole multiverse worth of pain.

sonofzeal

2011-11-29, 12:40 AM

A'tuin beats that, and it doesn't even compare to a whole multiverse worth of pain.
I realize there are creatures with greater power... but Lavos is just classy.

kardar233

2011-11-29, 12:44 AM

True.

Though a giant turtle is pretty classy too.

"It's turtles all the way down... except for the elephants."

DoctorGlock

2011-11-29, 02:48 AM

Upon reading Lost Empires of Faerun the other day, I noticed the foulwing. The massive beast seems rather strong for CR 5. Not overwhelmingly so, but it's got solid breath weapon, a crush/blood drain ability, and full attack likely to murder most fifth-level PCs.

For monster truly outside its rating of CR 5, see the Ibrandlin (http://www.realmshelps.net/cgi-bin/mainlistal.pl?name=Ibranlin&suba=I&subc=Dragon).

Meh, I used them once and found their lack of speed made the easy prey for archers to just kite down.

zanetheinsane

2011-11-29, 06:48 AM

Someone had mentioned in a brief list, but I think the Allip deserves another mention here. This creature will absolute wreck a level 3 party.

DC16 Will save AoE hypnotism. Throw in perfect 30 ft. fly speed and incorporeal for good measure. At 26hp it will easily survive two or three nukes. Now hopefully you have a magic weapon by level 3, but then you're still looking at a 50% miss chance.

That is of course assuming you even get to act. Improved Initiative and the fact that incorporeal creatures are completely silent means a probably surprise round. Oh, and that touch attack? Wisdom-DRAIN. That's right, at level 3 you're looking at permanent ability damage that can't be restored without a spell you get at level 7. Even if you win your melees might be in a coma (you can't outrun one of these things if you're a dwarf or in medium+ armor).

I've seen Allips on the random encounter tables for some pretty low-level adventures. I recommend rerolling or fudging unless your party is really up to the test.

Yora

2011-11-29, 07:07 AM

What makes an Allip worse than a Shadow?

Wisdom drain is worse than Strength damage on the long run, but when you fight them at 3rd level, they'll reduce you to 0 anyway and kill you. And in that case 1d6 Strength damage sounds worse than 1d4 Wisdom drain.

Why has nobody posted Lavos (http://d20npcs.wikia.com/wiki/Brobdignagian_Teratoid_Tarrasque) yet?
I don't know. A DC 4610 Fear aura, AC 2816, and 60d10+518 damage on a hit seems quite reasonable for a CR 1558 creature.

Isn't is supposed to be 1337?

zanetheinsane

2011-11-29, 07:40 AM

What makes an Allip worse than a Shadow?

Shadows are still bad news because they are faster than an allip and do more ability damage, but babble is what makes allips so dangerous.

With the shadow your party can at least save you but with allips there's a good chance they'll just be sitting there drooling on themselves while the allip saps one of your guys down. Unlike the actual spell hypnotism, babble has no HD restrictions, a huge range, and doesn't suffer the "+2 saves if used in combat".

Unless you're a class that has a decent wisdom score and good will saves, it's very likely you only have a +2 or +3 to will saves at level 3 (or worse). At DC16 there's a very statistically probable chance that at least half the party can't act for 2d4 rounds.

That basically means you're fighting a monster that was balanced for CR3 with only half of your party.

CTrees

2011-11-29, 08:07 AM

Volthawk

2011-11-29, 08:27 AM

.

Also, would incarnum powered housecats count? :smalltongue:

Ah yes, Incarnum. Giving creatures a big boost simply through intelligent feat selection. Really, just using the feats produced later on that actually give mini-class features can make a given creature a lot more dangerous.

Similar idea: Let's say our man is a simple LN Azurin warrior 1. He has one flaw (or two if you want to use a different Incarnum-boosting race). For his feats, he takes Shape Soulmeld (Incarnate Weapon), Bind Vestige and Improved Bind Vestige. He then binds Savnok, and invests his racial essentia point into Incarnate Weapon. He is now armed with a +1 longsword (law-aligned, in case that matters) and a suit of +1 Full Plate, both of which are free for him and can't be stolen from him, or looted off his dead body. That isn't the worst you can do with those feats, but I quite like this one.

Warforged at low levels with Admantine Body can be tough for their CR.

Also, this thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=212423) has a lot of stuff along those lines - using feats to beef up an NPC. Of course, that was just restricted to a Commoner 1, but the ideas could work with other creatures.

Eldan

2011-11-29, 09:34 AM

I... I don't actually know. Lycanthrope only specifies Animal-type, and swarm is a subtype, so... As far as I can tell, the game does not make an exception. :smalleek:

EDIT: It's weirdly specific in allowing scavengers as the base animal for a Lycanthrope, so Crow is totally valid here.

Actually, I read it again.
The text of Alternate Form specifically says you keep your own type and subtype, so you wouldn't get the swarm type. You also wouldn't get swarm traits, as you only gain the attacks of the new type. You would, however, gain Distraction, even though you aren't a swarm.

Mordokai

2011-11-29, 09:36 AM

Edit: If you're looking for highest CRs ever, Death (http://d20npcs.wikia.com/wiki/Death,_CR_373) is stronger than Ourobouros.

Meh, third party/homebrew things which are simply MOAR NUMBRS!!1! never impressed me. The later one in the thread with a [+infinity] and the neutronium golem especially. I just don't see the point.

However, I wanted to pick on Death especially, because just looking at it... 435,200 off 320HD? That's an average 1360HP/HD, on an ostensibly Undead creature with 151CHA and one instance of Unholy Toughness. Really? Also, things like "Reach: Infinite" and "AC: Cannot be hit," followed by AC numbers "just" in the hundreds? I mean, if you're making your creature completely ridiculous, at least be serious about it, rather than just tossing things around all willly-nilly.

Apart from what has already been said... that freaking thing makes no freaking sense!

It says something along the lines of Death being neutral and then taking portfolio of undeath and having a whole lot of undead servants. Ever since the world has been around, undead have feared Death and avoided it, not served it. Intelligent undead, at least, but that's all the difference it matters. Some of the abilities don't make sense. I can sooner see Death being served by Inevitables than undead.

If what CTrees says(I'm not a crunch expert, so I can't judge), this thing called Death, while vaguely flavorful, falls on all fronts. The only thing scary about it is the amount of inconsistency with which it was created.

DoctorGlock

2011-11-29, 09:36 AM

Meh, third party/homebrew things which are simply MOAR NUMBRS!!1! never impressed me. The later one in the thread with a [+infinity] and the neutronium golem especially. I just don't see the point.

However, I wanted to pick on Death especially, because just looking at it... 435,200 off 320HD? That's an average 1360HP/HD, on an ostensibly Undead creature with 151CHA and one instance of Unholy Toughness. Really?

Meh, it uses immortals handbook rules, a creature of its rank gets d1000 for HD, don't look too carefully, IH makes no sense.

Qwertystop

2011-11-29, 09:38 AM

Man, screw teratomorphs. We ran into one once. It took us MONTHS to get back to the plot we started on.

I say it's easier to beat them if you say it's so space-twisting that it appears on every plane at once, and its Plane Shift can't take you away from it. Then the Plane Shift isn't a Will Save-or-gone, it just adds terrain challenges. Just hope you don't get shifted to the Positive Energy plane, and do your best to fail the Will save if you do.

Tyndmyr

2011-11-29, 09:58 AM

Madder things have been made by man. (http://www.enworld.org/forum/2873260-post1.html)

I feel like this is an exercise in someone mashing the numberpad.

Addendum, no, Immortals Handbook does not consist of real rules.

Eldan

2011-11-29, 10:07 AM

Heh. Let me make a creature called the Ultimort.
"This creature has the same stats as the Mortiverse, but another 0 after every number."

Done. I'm such a great homebrewer.

Anarion

2011-11-29, 04:18 PM

Heh. Let me make a creature called the Ultimort.
"This creature has the same stats as the Mortiverse, but another 0 after every number."

Done. I'm such a great homebrewer.

Frankly, If it's stats don't require scientific notation in order to fit onto the screen, you're not trying hard enough.

Coidzor

2011-11-29, 11:13 PM

Frankly, If it's stats don't require scientific notation in order to fit onto the screen, you're not trying hard enough.

If the individual who made the darn thing had just gone with scientific notation it would've made looking at the darn thing a whole lot easier on the eyes.

Ceridan

2011-11-29, 11:18 PM

Rakshasa's back in 3.0 were just plain wrong at their CR of 10 or 11. Immune to spells of 8th level or lower and you needed a blessed crossbow bolt to actually kill them.

Kazyan

2011-11-29, 11:19 PM

Take a look at a few of those stats. Yeah, a few of them are in scientific notation. For the ones that are merely preposterous instead of insane, the string of zeroes packs a bigger realization punch.

It appears to have been made by abuse of template stacking with epic/immortal stuff, so it's only partially hombrew. Just goes to show how broken these sorts of things can get.