3.5 Monk Build Help

[timekart]

Hey everyone, it's my first time posting here and in the past I've seen you guys do some wonderful work with 3.5 builds. I've come here to ask for some help. A friend of mine is doing a "Thieves Guild" campaign where the main objective is to be stealthy and what not. I've been wanting to do a monk for a while and I could use some help.

First off I'd like to say that this is a casual game and I'm not looking for the best and most amazing build out there, I'd say try to limit it to 3-4 classes including prestige ones. I'd like the character to be more for role-playing than anything.

I have my hands on a good portion of the 3.5 books so we shouldn't have an issue there.

So in a summary I looking for help with:
-stealthy monk build
-non-twink (or whatever word is more appropriate for a more casual style character)

Hopefully you guys can help and thanks a bunch in advance.

edit: I also forgot to ask, Monk's unarmed attacks don't qualify for two-weapon fighting do they?

[Fax Celestis]

What's your starting level?

I will recommend right off the bat, regardless of that, something like Psychic Warrior or Psychic Rogue (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040723b) 1/Monk 2 as a start, take Monastic Training (ECS) at first, and the Tashalatora feat (Secrets of Sarlona) at 3rd. From there, you can keep in the psionic class and still get good mileage out of monk.

Alternatively, you can go something like Monk 4/[Soulknife or Psychic Warrior or Psychic Rogue] 2, and go into Fist of Dal'Quor (Secrets of Sarlona), using the same Monastic Training and Tashalatora feats, except this time using Monastic Training on Fist of Dal'Quor. Gets you some sudden strike, more mileage out of stunning fist, and some other goodies.

Probably better would be something like Monk 4/Soulknife 1/Atavist (Races of Eberron) 10. With Monastic Training/Tashalatora on Soulknife (again, lol), you can doublestack your atavist levels on Monk and Soulknife to get good unarmed strikes, good mind blades, and eventually mind blank, dismissal and the awesome Spiritual Union ability.

If I were to go with any of the above, I'd go Monk 4/Soulknife 1/Atavist 10/Fist of Dal'Quor 5, with two Monastic Trainings (on Soulknife and Fist of Dal'Quor) and Tashalatora, possibly with some TWF so I can beat on people with my mind blade and my fists at the same time. It's not amazing, but it's better than straight monk and retains most of the same concept.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Unarmed swordsage, psychic warrior tash, psionic fist PrC, Superior Unarmed Strike on a rogue, basically anything that advances unarmed strike and isn't monk.

[Provengreil]

I don't think they qualify, that's what flurry is for. it's basically unarmed twf as a class feature.

Anyway, the first, most obvious answer is swordsage as opposed to monk. If you were looking to actually have the monk base class though, there's a psionic feat called tashlatora or something like that which will allow you to pack on most of what's good in a monk into an entirely different class(movement, unarmed damage, flurry). I beleive the usual class here is psionic warrior, but I'm not sure as I don't use psionics myself.

Another class that comes to mind is the sacred fist from complete divine. you can take levels of monk and cleric, put up a few buffs, and get in there. Druid qualifies too, but you would have to be Lawful Neutral if you did that.

[Hiro Protagonest]

I don't think they qualify, that's what flurry is for. it's basically unarmed twf as a class feature.

They do, but you have a -4 penalty on attacks with medium BAB and harder to enhance weapons.

[Curmudgeon]

edit: I also forgot to ask, Monk's unarmed attacks don't qualify for two-weapon fighting do they?
No, they don't. The only way I know to get the Two-Weapon Fighting feats to apply to unarmed strikes is with the City Brawler Barbarian ACF (Dragon # 349 page 92), which specifically grants the Two-Weapon Fighting tree for weaponless attacks as alternative Barbarian class features (at levels 1, 6, 11). That's not going to help you (because of incompatible alignment requirements) unless you opt for Chaos Monk (Dragon # 335, page 89).

You haven't specified what level you're starting at/aiming for. That's fairly important to know if you're asking for build help.

[Telonius]

edit: I also forgot to ask, Monk's unarmed attacks don't qualify for two-weapon fighting do they?

This is a matter of some debate. RAW, it's not 100% clear. One side says that "Monk's Unarmed Strike" is a single attack, therefore can't TWF with itself, any more than a guy holding just one sword could TWF with just the sword. Another side says that's silly, a fist is a separate attack from a headbutt or the other hand or a kick or whatever. It's usually DM call.

If a Monk were holding a regular weapon in one hand, he could definitely TWF alternating between the weapon and an Unarmed Strike.

When you start getting into questions like "Can I use flurry of blows and TWF in the same round" is when it starts getting really silly.


EDIT: I should also say that even if it is possible, it's not usually a good idea for a Monk to TWF. TWF is only a good strategy if you have some sort of bonus damage, like Sneak Attack, Skirmish, or (to a much lesser extent) Favored Enemy.

[Keld Denar]

edit: I also forgot to ask, Monk's unarmed attacks don't qualify for two-weapon fighting do they?

This question is often debated around here. It basically boils down to 2 things. One, can a monk wield more than one UAS? Two, what happens if you do.

There is a little proof that a character only has one UAS, and that all parts of your body count as that one UAS. The proof is very indirect, though, relying on spell descriptions and other non-directly related rules to derive.

There isn't really any proof that states you can't wield your UAS as both your main hand and your offhand, except if you look at it like from above. If your UAS is your main hand, it can't be your offhand, because you only have one.

Then there is the whole debate on the "no offhand" clause, which is long and drawn out.

tl;dr RAW is kinda sketchy on this one. It really could swing either way. It's not unbalanced to do such. You simply get an extra attack, and the penalties stack. The extra attacks should probably only get half +str, depending on how you stand on the offhand thing.

I agree with the others above. Tashalatora is the way to go. Monk2/PsyRogue18 will give you a very fun, versatile, and useful character.

[Godskook]

First, as far as unarmed strikes benefiting from TWF, that's highly debatable in anything but the strictest RAW(where I'll yield to Curmudgeon), so your best bet is to ask your DM, not us.

As to builds, some basic concepts that are 'monkish':

1.The psionic fist:

Monk 2/Psion 18 -or- Monk 2/Ardent 18 -or- Monk 2/Psychic Warrior 18

The psychic warrior option is a solid 'tier 3' build, while the others are both tier 2, so for more play, pick the PW, but if you want a better ace in the hole, pick one of the others. Requires Eberron material from both Secrets of Sarlona and Eberron Campaign Setting, and as setting-specific material, you need to ask your DM if its available.

2.The arcane fist:

Monk 1/Wizard 4/Enlightened Fist 10/Abjurant Champion 5

This is a tier 1 build, but a weak one, and you can easily dial it to fit your group's power level. Ideally, you could grab Carmedine Monk from Champions of Valor, but that's Faerun, so see above.

3.The divine fist:

Monk 1/Cleric 4/Sacred Fist 10/Free 5

Very easy, very synergistic, and a very Assassin's creed type character. If it weren't for the fact that this is poster-boy CoDzilla, this would be the perfect option.

4.The swordsage:

Swordsage 20
Feats:
Shadow Blade
Weapon Finesse
ACFs:
Unarmed Swordsage(sacrificing armor proficiency for monk's ability to fight unarmed)

Among the most perfect ways to get what you're wanting, incredibly easy to build, and won't feel like power-gaming in the slightest(you're selecting one ACF to give you unarmed strikes, a feat made for swordsages and a feat from core).

5.Bardic Fist

Its an option, but its neither simple nor low-powered, so I'm not really going to push into it.

[Lateral]

Seconding Monk 2/ Psychic Warrior 18 or Unarmed Swordsage. If you don't have Secrets of Sarlona or Tome of Battle, go with a Sacred Fist build- all you need for that, really, is Complete Divine. Keep in mind, though, that the Sacred Fist's table is wrong- it gains casting at every level. It's hard to get in without losing a caster level from Monk, though, so it's not a problem. Also, the standard entry is Monk 1/Cleric 5- you need +4 BAB to enter, so you don't qualify as a Monk 1/ Cleric 4.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Seconding Monk 2/ Psychic Warrior 18 or Unarmed Swordsage. If you don't have Secrets of Sarlona or Tome of Battle, go with a Sacred Fist build- all you need for that, really, is Complete Divine. Keep in mind, though, that the Sacred Fist's table is wrong- it gains casting at every level. It's hard to get in without losing a caster level from Monk, though, so it's not a problem. Also, the standard entry is Monk 1/Cleric 5- you need +4 BAB to enter, so you don't qualify as a Monk 1/ Cleric 4.

An alternative to Sacred Fist is Psionic Fist, which is free on the SRD. Or Enlightened Fist, which I think is in CArc. Or Fist of the Forest, which is in... something.

[Fax Celestis]

Seconding Monk 2/ Psychic Warrior 18 or Unarmed Swordsage. If you don't have Secrets of Sarlona or Tome of Battle, go with a Sacred Fist build- all you need for that, really, is Complete Divine. Keep in mind, though, that the Sacred Fist's table is wrong- it gains casting at every level. It's hard to get in without losing a caster level from Monk, though, so it's not a problem. Also, the standard entry is Monk 1/Cleric 5- you need +4 BAB to enter, so you don't qualify as a Monk 1/ Cleric 4.

Monk 2/Cleric 4 also gets in, and gets to have evasion, +1 all saves, and a second bonus feat as well, for the price of 1 CL. YMMV on whether or not its worth it.

[Lateral]

An alternative to Sacred Fist is Psionic Fist, which is free on the SRD. Or Enlightened Fist, which I think is in CArc. Or Fist of the Forest, which is in... something.

Yeah, but Psionic Fist sucks. Enlightened Fist is okay, but it has less synergy. They're still options, and if all you have is core and the SRD then a Psionic Fist is probably your best bet for a functional Monk, but they just aren't great options.

@V: Straight Fighter is better than straight Monk. It's not really that hard to be better than a straight Monk.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Yeah, but Psionic Fist sucks. Enlightened Fist is okay, but it has less synergy.

It's better than straight monk.

[Rubik]

What if you take monk 10/kensai 10, rock out with as many monk ACFs as you can get away with (hooray wild shaping monk!), use kensai to enhance your unarmed strikes (but don't go above +1 for your enhancement bonus; grab +9 in abilities instead), and take a necklace of natural attacks (from Savage Species) to grab another +9 in abilities? Then grab the tooth of Leraje from Tome of magic for a nice fat +5 enhancement bonus to your attack and damage. That way you can flurry with a +23 unarmed strike (+5 from the tooth, +9 in bonuses from kensai, and another +9 from the necklace).

Go for ranged feats (and make sure you have Far Shot), as well as throwing (for ranged body slams), distance, seeking (so you never have to worry about miss chances due to concealment again), ghost touch (to go incorporeal at will), sizing (a Colossal+++ monk? Why not?), manyfanged (x4 damage), suppression (but find a way to get a high manifester level, for Dispelling at will), etc etc etc.

[Drelua]

I'm seeing a lot of powerful ideas that will work really well, probably better than any of my ideas, but here goes. I'm no system master, and this is something I just came up with now, so don't expect too much power, and if it sucks, someone tell me. Monk 2+/Rogue 3+/Swashbuckler 3+. Take the Invisible Fist ACF from Exemplars of Evil, and the Feats Daring Outlaw and Kung Fu Genius. I'm sure this is much weaker than most, if not all, of the ideas that have already been posted, but it sounds fun to me, and doesn't have casting so it's a different idea at least. If you can get your DM to drop the alignment and fluff from Assassin, that has good INT synergy, although that brings casting back into it, if only a little. Even if he isn't comfortable dropping the alignment requirement, show him this (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/prc/20070401a). That gives you a cool alternative to making a caster, and should be okay in a casual game. The at-will invisibility will be especially useful in a stealth-focused campaign. If someone else wants to fill in the details on this build, I'd appreciate it, 'cause now I really want to play it and I'm not sure where to take it from level 8.

[Greenish]

Or Fist of the Forest, which is in... something.Complete Champion. Of course, you might not want to enter as a monk, when, say, barbarian2/pugilist2 would be better. Not that stealthy, though.

Slapping a few levels of monk or unarmed swordsage on your rogue might be what the doctor ordered.

[The Underlord]

Personally, straight unarmed swordsage with snap kick and focusing on shadow hand maneuvers is what you are looking for. Snap kick is like flurry, but you can make it on standard action and strike maneuver(which are MUCH better than normal attacks). To add in more sneaky-nesss, dip rogue one or two levels, for 1. delay stance progression, 2 gain sneak attack. Take craven to add your CHARACTER level to sneak attack damage. You would be pretty MAD, strength for damage, dex for ac, wisdom for more ac, and con for hit points, but no more mad then an average monk.

Number one tip for playing monks: Dont go for more than 4-6 level, if you HAVE to, none is prefereable.

[Rubik]

Number one tip for playing monks: Dont go for more than 4-6 level, if you HAVE to, none is prefereable.ACFs can change this, but in general, yes.

[marcielle]

Less then optimized, but Dark Moon Disciple monks get total concealment whenever they are not in full daylight, meaning an umbrella gives you a whopping miss chance. Perfect for stealthy types. It's level 7 though, so it's a heavy investment.
Depends on how important sneaky is to you.

Don't forget, you can use SRD fighting style ACFs to tailor your bonus feats.

Martial monk from Dragon Mag trades a skill point a level for access to all bonus fighter feats, WITHOUT NEEDING PREREQS. Just be reasonable with your selection and DM might let it fly(if you are not, he'll just ban Dragon Mag).

Bump for Ardent Monk. Reasonable versatility while keeping hp and Bab up. PsyWar might have bonus feats, but look at the fighter...

[Lateral]

Bump for Ardent Monk. Reasonable versatility while keeping hp and Bab up. PsyWar might have bonus feats, but look at the fighter...

Honestly, I'd recommend Psychic Warrior over Ardent- Ardents are not tier 3s. Psychic Warriors are. Sure, Monk 2/Ardent 18 is more powerful than Monk 2/ Psychic Warrior 18, but Psychic Warrior has a great selection of buff powers without being as powerful as the full-manifesting Ardents.

[hex0]

Unarmed swordsage, psychic warrior tash, psionic fist PrC, Superior Unarmed Strike on a rogue, basically anything that advances unarmed strike and isn't monk.

Although Shou Disciple isn't too bad by the virtue being full BAB, 2 levels ahead on Unarmed Damage, and stacking with your flurry. And full BAB flurry is nice.

Human Monk 2/Fighter 1/Psychic Warrior 2/Shou Disciple 5/War Mind 10 would give you enough uses of Psionic Lion's Charge to full attack charge.

[Keld Denar]

Also, while Ardents get more PP and higher level powers, PsyWars get better power selection WRT melee combat without doing a ton of power swapping. You aren't gonna get Expansion or Compression with any mantle normally. Same with Psionic Lions Charge and a few other nice gishy powers.

[Rubik]

They don't get as many powers as an ardent gets, but I think psywars are superior in a number of ways.

Because ardents get a horrible power selection and the mantles suck. Certain ACFs make this a non-issue, but standard ardents are TERRIBLE.

And psywars get tons of psi/fighter feats, which are great, since psi is very VERY feat-intensive.

[Keld Denar]

One fewer power.

Ardent 1 gets 2 known. PsyWar 1 gets 1 known. The other 19 levels each get one power each for each level.

Plus, PsyWars get a bunch of bonus feats that can be spent on Expanded Knowledge.

[Rubik]

One fewer power.One fewer is still fewer. :smalltongue:


Plus, PsyWars get a bunch of bonus feats that can be spent on Expanded Knowledge.I do loves me some bonus feats.

The only problem is that psywars have lower level powers, so it takes longer to get things like Metamorphosis.

[Fax Celestis]

What, no one likes my monk/soulknife/atavist/fist of dal'quor? :smallfrown:

[Cespenar]

Monk/Wildshape Ranger/Master of Many Forms/Fist of the Forest is a nice non-tier 1 build, I guess. Any role you want, there's a shape for that.

[Lateral]

One fewer is still fewer. :smalltongue:

Yeah, but the one with fewer is the Psychic Warrior. You're supporting the wrong one. :smalltongue:

[Rubik]

Yeah, but the one with fewer is the Psychic Warrior. You're supporting the wrong one. :smalltongue:Check again. I actually said that psywars get fewer powers, but they were better anyway.

[Lateral]

Check again. I actually said that psywars get fewer powers, but they were better anyway.

I know, but saying 'one fewer is still fewer' when you're supporting the one with fewer kind of undermines your argument.

[Rubik]

I know, but saying 'one fewer is still fewer' when you're supporting the one with fewer kind of undermines your argument.I think it says something when psywar is better even with fewer powers known and is restricted to 6th level powers rather than 9th.

[Keld Denar]

I tried to build an ardent based Tash character once. It was super hard. There were so many powers I wanted that just didn't appear on mantles, or were on crappy mantles when I only wanted 1 power from the mantle. I was trying to build a Monk/Ardent/Totemist/SoulManifester, and the big powers I wanted were Inertial Armor (Force), Expansion (None), Grip of Iron (Law), Strength of my Enemy (None), Greater Concealing Amorphia (Light and Darkness?), and a few other big buffs.

Yea, having Anticipatory Strike is cool and all, but dang it, I wanted Expansion for the HUGE grapple bonus. Ardent just didn't make the cut.

[timekart]

There are some questions and problems arising I should have covered earlier.

First: I'm starting somewhere between 2 and 4, the DM is rolling a 1d4 for levels and you have one reroll. I only have a 6.25% chance to end up with 1 so it's safe to assume I'll be at least level 2. We also probably won't be making it much passed level 10 if we even reach 10.

Second: The most anyone in my group has deviated from the base classes are the warlock and swashbuckler classes, so I was hoping to try and keep it to the bases. So we've never had anyone truly consider a psionic.

Third: I'm looking fro a more stealth role-play monk instead of a combat powerhouse.

Fourth: Even though this is fits more in the Second, I wanted to make it Fourth; I am against the Swordsage. I think manuevers per encounter remind me too much of why I did not like 4e.

... I guess looking at the response it may be more intelligent to just do a rogue or ranger and possibly take thief-acrobat.

So I think I know the answer, but are the Tattooed Monk and Master of Mask underpowered? I love the idea of both of them but I'm afraid they may suck.

[Rubik]

Fourth: Even though this is fits more in the Second, I wanted to make it Fourth; I am against the Swordsage. I think manuevers per encounter remind me too much of why I did not like 4e.
They're refreshed each encounter, but you get so many of them (and can refresh them during a fight if you take a feat) that you'll always have access to something.

Would you prefer to go without for half the day? :smallconfused:

[Hirax]

I don't think I saw anyone else post it, but monk2/psywar9/slayer9 is a possibility. Add in a monk's belt and you've got a fully progressed flurry (2 extra attacks with no penalties), 16 BAB, 2 6th level powers known, and all of slayer's great immunities (namely, a form of mind blank that still allows you to benefit from spells such as heroism).

[Rubik]

I don't think I saw anyone else post it, but monk2/psywar9/slayer9 is a possibility. Add in a monk's belt and you've got a fully progressed flurry (2 extra attacks with no penalties), 16 BAB, 2 6th level powers known, and all of slayer's great immunities (namely, a form of mind blank that still allows you to benefit from spells such as heroism).It's hard to add Tashalatora to a PrC that adds to psywar because you have to take Monastic Training and Tashalatora twice to get the effects on both psywar and the PrC.

However, ignoring monk and taking the monk's belt and a nicely-enhanced spiked gauntlet is a decent option too. Saves on 4 feats and 2 levels, and just costs some wealth.

[Hirax]

I'm not advocating using slayer to progress any monk abilities. Advance it to 11 via monk2/psywar9, grab a monk's belt, and call it good. You're only missing out on one damage increment if you bail at that point.

[Rubik]

I'm not advocating using slayer to progress any monk abilities. Advance it to 11 via monk2/psywar9, grab a monk's belt, and call it good. You're only missing out on one damage increment if you bail at that point.
Ah. Well, is 9 levels worth spending 2 feats on?

[Hirax]

Well, monastic training can be taken as your first level monk bonus feat, assuming you're willing to give up improved crapple or stunning fail, so the cost is really only 1 feat. It only costs 2 feats if you take no monk levels. In my mind if you're going to do tashalatora at all, you should be getting 11 effective monk levels. Any fewer and you miss the extra attack from greater flurry, and you're gimping your unarmed damage, at which point it's not worth tashalatora in the first place. It's only worthwhile to go higher if you want to do it for 4 more levels to get 1 more unarmed damage upgrade. Given that the damage upgrade will cost you an iterative attack at your highest bonus because you presumably won't hit 16 BAB, I say bail once you greater flurry, whether to slayer or any other prestige class.

[Keld Denar]

I know you are hesitant about psionics, but they are pretty awesome. Not that much more complicated than a Warlock. You could benefit a TON from the powers. Chameleon would give you a big bonus to hide, as would compression. Psionic Dim Door or Dim Hop would allow you to bypass pesky things like walls and doors. Other things like Catfall or that one City Strider power in CPsi would boost your acrobatics.

You could have a lot of fun with it, and on a Monk/PsyRogue chassis, you won't really worry about being overpowered.

[timekart]

Oh wow the monk2/psychic rogue x combo seems like just what I want.

So thanks so much to everyone who took the time out to help out me.

I'll be back if I ever need any more help. :smallbiggrin:

[Gavinfoxx]

Make sure to get Tashalatora and Monastic Training! Also consider Alternate Class Features for your classes, there should be some ACF's that can help quite a bit.

[hex0]

Make sure to get Tashalatora and Monastic Training! Also consider Alternate Class Features for your classes, there should be some ACF's that can help quite a bit.

And Kung Fu Genius or Carmendine Monk!