[Pathfinder] Break me a summoner!

[Elondor]

I'm contemplating creating either a standard summoner or a synthesist summoner. I wanted to see if the great people of these forums could optimize the summoner/synthesist to outrageous levels of brokeness. Ideas?

[deuxhero]

Start with the handbook here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=184592&highlight=handbook)

[Elondor]

The handbook, while handy, only advises what are the best options as far as feats, stats, and skills. It doesn't touch too much on eidolon abilities nor does it cover the synthesist. And besides, i'm not looking for good, I'm looking for broken :smallbiggrin:

[Blyte]

What level?

you don't get more broken than a summoner keeping magic jar up all the day long imho.

just use your eidolon as your gem+husk caddy.

use the monsters you posses as HP batteries for your eidolon (via life link) and keep possessing them...

if you posses something with insignificant fighting abilities and you are running low on spells then use the twin eidolon ability within the possessed creature.

however if you are upper level I would suggest going with master summoner, and let your eidolon just be a caddy while (stealthed+invised) and let your summons and possesed victims do your fighting.

[Novawurmson]

Two levels of Synthesist Summoner + Anything that uses Charisma (Anti/Paladin being the first thing that comes to mind). There was a Gundolon build floating around that used Mysterious Stranger Gunslinger+Synthesist Summoner.

[Blyte]

dominate monster + gate/MS9 + magic jar(with meta magics heightened, bouncing, and persistent) is as broken as it gets my friend.

don't just dip, embrace the one man gang class entirely.

[Bovine Colonel]

Two levels of Synthesist Summoner + Anything that uses Charisma (Anti/Paladin being the first thing that comes to mind). There was a Gundolon build floating around that used Mysterious Stranger Gunslinger+Synthesist Summoner.

Why two? :smallconfused:

[jaybird]

Why two? :smallconfused:

You get +2 to AC and +2 to all your saves while your Eidolon is up if you're a Synth. Add that to CHA to saves as a Paladin. You rapidly see where this is going.

[Stone Heart]

I was always under the impression that people liked keeping their levels to summoner because its the only way to improve your eidolon. I see the benefit of the paladin there though, especially with point buy you can drop your physical stats to nothing and just use the synthesist body for a paladin character.

[grarrrg]

Two levels of Synthesist Summoner + Anything that uses Charisma (Anti/Paladin being the first thing that comes to mind). There was a Gundolon build floating around that used Mysterious Stranger Gunslinger+Synthesist Summoner.

Current Gundolon (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=213035&page=5) build (4th post down). It no longer uses Mysterious Stranger, instead it uses Pistolero, and 2 levels of Ranger-Trophy Hunter to grab the Cha-to-Damage deed. It winds up doing Dex AND Cha to damage. :smallcool:


Why two? :smallconfused:

If you are a Caster than a couple is plenty, you get extra HP and a Save boost, and don't have to worry about Physical stats.
If you are a Beatstick, then you want at LEAST 5 levels (most gains/least investment).



You get +2 to AC and +2 to all your saves while your Eidolon is up if you're a Synth. Add that to CHA to saves as a Paladin. You rapidly see where this is going.

And a link to a recent thread on PF-CHA-Abuse (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=224023)

[Infernalbargain]

It depends on whether you want raw power or versatility. For versatility, go evolutionist all the way because the ability to completely respec your eidolon on a daily basis is big.

[Elondor]

Well assuming I aim to be either straight synthesist or straight vanilla summoner (maybe evolutionist) then what are optimal eidolon configurations and feat choices?

[Blyte]

again..... what level?

[grarrrg]

Well assuming I aim to be either straight synthesist or straight vanilla summoner (maybe evolutionist) then what are optimal eidolon configurations and feat choices?

Biped has better Starting Str, and gains natural Reach when large.

Quadruped has access to Pounce.

Aquatic/Serpentine aren't worth looking at (unless it's an underwater campaign, but that is unlikely).


For Config/Feats, depends if you want to go Natural Attacks, or Weapons.

[Elondor]

Starting at level one, level decently often, (once a week or so) 20 pb.

[Barstro]

It depends on whether you want raw power or versatility. For versatility, go evolutionist all the way because the ability to completely respec your eidolon on a daily basis is big.

That can be done with a 4th level spell anyway. Sure, it takes one hour instead of one minute, but it's still available.

Now, if the evolutionist could change base form every day instead of only when leveling, that would be a reason to be an evolutionist.

[Blyte]

too easy go with a quad eidolon for pounce and buy 1 set of claws, so you can take advantage of claw, claw, bite..

once you get 4+ attacks phase out your bite and just focus on the claws, feats like weapon focus claws, improved natural attack, rending claws, evolutions for rend, energy claws, etc.. etc..

if, on the other hand, you go with a master summoner (a better choice in the upper levels imo) go with a skilldolon... try and get your DM to let you make him your cohort and take rogue levels with him in addition to his outsider levels and make him a wand/scroll wielding trap monkey... and use your summons/magic jars to do your fighting.

[Infernalbargain]

That can be done with a 4th level spell anyway. Sure, it takes one hour instead of one minute, but it's still available.

Now, if the evolutionist could change base form every day instead of only when leveling, that would be a reason to be an evolutionist.

The spell has a 1k component attached. That's a hefty enough price tag to notice.

[Prospector]

I'm also creating a Synthesist and thought I might ask some build questions here if I may.

So my character is going Human Synthesist/Paladin (Probably in equal amounts) starting at level 5. I know I want to go Bipedal and use weapons (looks like a knight in Bronze Dragon themed full-plate). So my questions are: Does the Synthesists' Eidolon need to take the Weapon Training evolution to use martial weapons? What two-handed weapon should I use? And what feats (other than Power Attack) should I be taking now and later?

[Paul H]

Hi

First off, take Human Bipedal Synthesist.

Traits: There is a Human Racial Trait that allows you to learn extra spell each time you level. Spell must be below max lvl you can currently cast.
Also take Heirloom Wpn - any 2H martial wpn of your choice. You buy it as normal, but you'er proficient with this specific weapon until you have four evo points for proficiency in all simple & martial weapons.

Feats: Include SF Conjuration & Augmnent Summoning. (Plus Pwr Attack & Arcane Strike).
Spells; Take Summon Eidolon & Invis at 4th lvl.

Cast Invis, then cast Summon Eidolon as full round action. You get extra +4Str/Con in addition to your normal evolutions. :smalltongue:

Thanks
Paul H

[grarrrg]

So my character is going Human Synthesist/Paladin (Probably in equal amounts) starting at level 5. I know I want to go Bipedal and use weapons (looks like a knight in Bronze Dragon themed full-plate). So my questions are: Does the Synthesists' Eidolon need to take the Weapon Training evolution to use martial weapons? What two-handed weapon should I use? And what feats (other than Power Attack) should I be taking now and later?

I'd recommend taking Half-Elf instead of Human for a few reasons.
First off, Half-Elf can have 2 favored classes, so you can still get 20 "favored" points, instead of only 10-ish.
Secondly, Half-Elf can get extra Evolution Points from their Summoner favored levels.

You should be fine with Martial weapons from your levels of Paladin.

For feats, anything that works well for a standard 'fighting' build.
Keep in mind that you may (or may not) qualify for various "Monster" feats this way.

While even levels of Paladin/Sythesist may be your ultimate goal, I'd suggest getting 2 levels of Paladin, then taking Sythesist up to level 8 to get Large. From there proceed however you want.

You may also consider dipping Oracle for a level and getting Cha-to-AC. Double bonus if you also take the Large evolution, because then the Dex penalty won't even be noticeable.

[Prospector]

I maybe wrong, but I thought the human summoner option was either +1 Skill or +1 Hp Paul H. If it isn't, could you show where it is?

[grarrrg]

I maybe wrong, but I thought the human summoner option was either +1 Skill or +1 Hp Paul H. If it isn't, could you show where it is?

Paul is mistaken.
For most other casters Human's get to add 1 spell known. Not the case with Summoners.

And for a Synthesist, the point is moot, a Human would give themselves the bonuses everytime.

I still say go Half-Elf.

[Paul H]

Hi

OOps - my bad. It's Sorcerors that gain the extra spells. (Entry above Summoners in APG).

Half Elves gain 1 evo point every 4th level, nice, but is it worth a feat, plus the extra skill points humans get every level? Humans can take the Eclectic feat which grants you two favoured classes. (Yeah I know, uses up feat slot).

As for weapons - answered that.

Heirloom Wpn grants proficiency with one specific simple or martial weapon. Later you spend 4 evo points to grant Simple/Martial Wpn proficiency.

And don't underestimate Arcane Strike. It means that ALL your attacks count as magical (not just a specific type), and grant extra damage based on CL.

Thanks
Paul H

[Barstro]

The spell has a 1k component attached. That's a hefty enough price tag to notice.

Thank you for pointing that out. I somehow never noticed the cost. I don't really play the game; how much work is it to get 1,000gp at levels 10/15/20?

Too bad that's the only thing that Evolutionist is good for.

Other abilities;
1) Mutate; same as Transmogrify, but costs $200 PER LEVEL. Sure, you get it four levels sooner than the spell, but it costs from $200 to $800 more to cast, and it takes a full day. Also you lose Maker's Call (but that's not overly useful(

2) Evolve Base Form; change biped into quadruped. Useful, but can only be done when you level. Just choose the correct form the first time (or bribe the DM to magically make things right). This costs you Transposition, an interesting teleport spell that meshes with Maker's Call nicely.

3) Transmogrify ability. As mentioned, very nice. But, you lose Greater Shield Ally. I think I could convince my party to pay me the 1,000gp for the almost constant +2 shield bonus.

[stack]

Regarding weapon proficiencies, that is an unclear area, but I would assume that the summoners profs are used, as the synthesists eidolon has to feats or profs. Thus the paladin level gives you every martial weapon, no evolutions wasted.

[PrinceParrot]

Has anyone pointed out that the Sythesist2/PaladinX wouldn't work because you have to use the Eidolon's BAB?

[grarrrg]

Has anyone pointed out that the Sythesist2/PaladinX wouldn't work because you have to use the Eidolon's BAB?

First off, Thread Necromancy is frowned upon, so...

TURN UNTHREAD!


Secondly, the Eidolon Bab only replaces the Summoner's Bab
I'm not going to bother finding a better Link (http://paizo.com/paizo/messageboards/paizoPublishing/pathfinder/pathfinderRPG/rules/synthesistMulticlassBab).

[KutuluKultist]

The Master Summoner archetype can win many encounters by himself. Spamming summoned monsters gives you superior numbers, free placement gives you tactical superiority and you get to pick whatever is appropriate for the situation.
Your eidolon is reduced to a skill monkey, but hey...

[panaikhan]

For my Synthesist, I went quadruped.
At 11th level, he has a combined HP pool of 212, an AC of 30, and is Large.
Attacks: +16(bite)/+16(claw)/+16(claw)/+14(buffet)/+14(buffet)
if a claw hits a medium or smaller opponent, grapple for +16(rake)/+16(rake)
Bite: 1D8+8, claw: 1D8+8, rake: 1D6+8, buffet: 1D6+4
All attacks are considered [Magic] and [Evil] against DR
Can fly, and Evolution Surge can give it a breath weapon for 9D6[Energy]

[Pilo]

As an half-elf, you can replace the talent feat race-granted by one weapon proeficiency feat (martial or exotic).

[gomipile]

I thought the save boost from synthesist summoner was its level 4 ability?

[marcielle]

If a synthesist can use simple weapons in Eidolon form, does he still need to spend evo points to obtain simple weapon prof before getting martial prof, or can he skip right to martial?

[Wagadodo]

Being a Syntheist you use your own feats, and skills. So your character could either take it through evo points or through taking feat as your character. I would suggest going as a Half elf, get the extra evolution points, and take the subisition weapon martial weapon or exotic weapon feat instead of skill focus.