The toughest nut

[Anthrowhale]

This is a puzzle.

In playing around with Initiate of Mystra, I think I've come across an extraordinarily difficult build to crack, so I'd appreciate your thoughts.

The build is:
NG F from Rashemen
Cloistered Cleric 5/Dweomer Keeper 2/Hathran 5/Dweomer Keeper 8

Initial stats are: 3/13/13/14/18/13

The domains are Knowledge, Rune, Divine Magician. DM isn't really necessary here. We can still qualify for DK by using the "Substitute Domain" spell in Complete Champion.

The feats are:
1. Ethran
1. (human) Ocular Spell
1. (Rune) Scribe Scroll
1. (flaw) Extend Spell
1. (flaw) Persistent Spell
3 Initiate of Mystra
6. Leadership
9. Node Spell
12. Metanode Spell
15. Chain Spell
18. Arcane Mastery

Note that I'm minimizing cheese here---no reshuffling of feats, no early entry to classes, and no body switching. I will be using the spells, but only a reasonable number on noncleric spells.

This build starts very strong, because at L1 it can persist spells when at a Mystra holy site. At L5, Initiate of Mystra grants access to Anyspell, which allows us to cast arcane spells for entrance into DK. At L6, leadership is another significant power boost. At L12 we get circle magic, which is generally phenomenal and we start a church on top of a level 6 earth node. By L15, we can freely add all metamagic to every spell cast at our church---Ocular+Chain+Extended+Invisible+Metanode = 0, and Persistent can be handled by the holy site.

The cool trick with Initiate of Mystra is AM-field casting. The general idea is to cast AM-field and then persist-buff your stats inside the field. There are several ways to get around an AM-field.

We'll nerf most Disjunction spellcasters by casting AM-field as a supernatural spell. A supernatural AM-field is no longer a valid target for Disjunction which works on "spells and spell-like effects" but not undispellable supernatural effects, which our AM-field is.

We'll nerf an Incantatrix using Metamagic effect Sculpt Spell the same way: it's no longer a spell effect and hence no longer a valid target for Metamagic effect.

We'll nerf a simple Initiate of Mystra by casting an AM field at caster level 42. This requires a DC 53 caster level check which is easy for us with Arcane Mastery, but otherwise quite tough.

Just to be sure, we'll have two AM-fields up at all times.

Everyone else has a very tough time doing anything.

We'll nerf all weapon attacks using Incorporeality in the AM-field.

We'll nerf Orb casters with an unbeatable Invisibility + Hide. Even if they somehow get around this, Conj(creation) spells are nonmagical when they impact our incorporeal form and hence cause no damage.

We'll nerf monsters that strike as magic weapons by having (effectively) a very high number of hp + high touch AC.

How do you break in? The only mechanic I know of is via Epic spells or a similar Initiate of Mystra+circle magic build.

For this build, I can get:

Init 25 [11+5(Primal Hunter)+5(Nerve Skitter)+4(Heroism: Improved Init)]
Senses:
x4 lowlight, x2 normal
Darkvision 480'
Blindsense 240' [Dragonsight]
Truesight 120
Spot 44 [11 + 13 + 10(extract gift)+8(eyes of avoral)]

Defenses:
AC(touch) 74 [10+11(dex)+8(luminous armor)+3(Recitation)+18(Algid enhancement)+7(Shield+Shield Specialization+magic vestment+ghost armor)+6(holy star)+5(Shield of Warding)+5(Haste, Visions of Future, Aerial Alacrity)+1(size)]
(evil in 10' -2 [Holy Transformation], melee -4 to attack [Greater Luminous Armor])

HP: 286 + 26 Temp [Algid Enhancement]
<= 143 hp gives 260 temp hp [Renewal Pact]
< 0 hp gives +150 [Stalwart Pact]
1/2 damage from all melee & ranged attacks [Sublime Revelry]
Fast Heal 4 [Greater Vigor]
50% miss [Greater Invisiblity and/or Permeable Form]
[effectively, (286+26+260+150)*2*2=2888 hp]

Immune: (the biggies)
Nonmagical damage[Permeable Form]
Supernatural, Spell, & Spell-like [AM-Field]
Spot [Greater Invisibility]
Listen, Scent & strange senses [Permeable Form]

(others, just in case)
Flat-Footed [Foresight]
Surprise[Foresight]
Elemental [Energy Immunity]
Restraints [Freedom of Movement]
Ability damage & drain [Sheltered Vitality]
Blindness, Deafness, Crits, Physiology attacks, Stunning,Disease,Poison[Stone Body]
Nonmagical damage[Permeable Form]
Mind-Affect spells&Effects[Sublime Revelry]
Fear[Ruin Delver's Fortune]
Dazzled[Vision of the Omniscient Eye]
Possession[Protection from Evil]
Ranged Touch[Ray Deflection]
Death Spells, Energy Drain, Negative Energy Damage[Death Watch]

Resist
DR 10/Adamantine [Stone Body] & Magic[Greater visage of the Deity]
SR 64 [Spell Resistance]
Fort 53
Refl 49 Evasion
Will 54 reroll 1/round

[kardar233]

I looked through Incarnum and it talked about Dead Magic Zones and Incarnum, but IIRC that's a specific term that deals with (zones of dead magic) and not Anti-Magic Fields. If so, a Mind Blanked (depending on the Mind Blank/Foresight ruling) extreme speed (possibly through Cheetah's dash) Ubercharger using a Crown-Bound Crystal Helm might pull it off.

[Anthrowhale]

I looked through Incarnum and it talked about Dead Magic Zones and Incarnum, but IIRC that's a specific term that deals with (zones of dead magic) and not Anti-Magic Fields. If so, a Mind Blanked (depending on the Mind Blank/Foresight ruling) extreme speed (possibly through Cheetah's dash) Ubercharger using a Crown-Bound Crystal Helm might pull it off.

It's an interesting idea, but maybe you can spell it out more? I don't see how it works.

Soulmeld-magic transparency (Incarnum page 52) says that soulmelds count as spells or spell-like abilities, and hence are suppressed in an AM-field. You'll also have difficulties with the mindblank shutting off as you enter the AM-field. And, in any case, AC 74-11(dex)-5(dodge) = 58 is still pretty rough.

[Anthrowhale]

I'm going to post a full build, for the record. Relative to the above, I've minimized cheese even further, using no character options from Unearthed Arcana, and doing nothing funny with Domains. The AC is a bit higher, and the caster level of the AMfield drops to 32 since we lose Arcane Mastery. The implied DC 43 caster level check remains formidable for other initiates of Mystra. I'll also try to make the build as unconstrained as possible.

Invlunerable of Mystra
{NG,LG,LN} female Human from Rashemen or Outsider[Cold] when buffed
Cleric(Mystra) 5/Dweomer Keeper 2/Hathran 5/Dweomer Keeper 8
(The last 2 levels of DK could be something else, but the extra Supernatural Spell is pretty nice.)

Domains: Rune & Magic

Str 3
Dex 13
Con 13
Int 14
Wis 18
Chr 13

All stat advancement goes to Wisdom. Use persistent Divine Agility, Bite of the Wereboar, Chasing Perfection, Inner Beauty, Holy Transformation, Stone Body, Greater Visage of the Deity + 5 wishes to {Wis, Chr, Dex, Con}, 4 wishes to Int and 1 wish to Str to get:

Str 14
Dex 32
Con 32
Int 24
Wis 36
Chr 30

Feats:
1. Extend Spell
1. (human) Ethran
1. (Rune) Scribe Scroll
3. Initiate of Mystra
6. Leadership
9. Persistent Spell
12. Ocular Spell
15. Node Spellcasting
18. Metanode Spell

We only need an L3 earth node to use all metamagic now with the free metamagic as a cleric of mystra.

Skill ranks:
Always maximize K(Religion), Spellcraft, Concentration and Spot. Get 8 ranks of K(Arcana) as a cleric, get 4 ranks of K(Rashemen) as a Dweomer Keeper, and 4 ranks of K(Dungeoneering) as a Hathran. Take Swift Concentration (from complete scoundrel) as a skill trick. 9 skill points are left over.

Every day, we use 45 levels of circle magic to maximize caster level & caster level checks and MaxEmp algid enhancement. With good circle participants, this requires just an hour, but otherwise 2. We'll also use Anyspell, which has a significant casting time, so we'll reserve 3 hours for casting. Since we are a divine caster, we can freely skimp on sleep using "Remove Fatigue" from Exalted Deeds. The total prep time/day is then just 5 hours implying an uptime of 19 hours/day. Since the daily buff costs nothing, this can go on indefinitely.

Initiative: 25 = [11(dex)+5(Primal Instinct)+5(Nerve Skitter)+4(Heroics:Improved Initiative)]

Senses:
x2 Normal, x4 Low light, Darkvision 480', Blindsense 240' (Dragonsight)
Truesight 120'
Spot 44 =[11(ranks)+13(Wis)+2(Share Talents)+10(Wieldskill)+8(Eyes of Avoral)]
Arcane Sight
Battlemagic Perception

Touch AC: 76 [effectively 80 or 82]
Flat-footed Touch AC: 60 [effectively 64 or 66]
Evil in 10' -2 to hit, melee attackers -4 to hit

= [10 + 11(dex)+8(Greater Luminous Armor)
+3(Recitation)
+18(Algid Enhancement)
+9(Heroics:Exotic Shield Proficiency:Extreme Shield + Heoroics:Shield Specialization:Extreme Shield + Magic Vestment + Ghost Touch Armor)
+6(Holy Star)
+5(Shield of Warding)
+5(Haste, Visions of the Future, Heroics:Dodge, Aerial Alacrity)
+1(size)]

HP: 286 (with Improved Toughness)
Temp HP: 27 (from Algid Enhancement)
< 1/2 hp provides +260 Temp hp (Stalwart Pact)
<= -10 hp provides +150 hp (Fortunate Fate)
+Delay Death +Beastland Ferocity
DR 10/Adamantine
1/2 damage from melee attacks (Sublime Revelry)
Fast Heal 4 (Greater Vigor)
Invisible (Greater Invisibility) + Incorporeal (Permeable Form) = 50% miss chance for DR/magic monsters

Immune:
Nonmagical attacks (Permeable Form)
Supernatural, Spell-like, and Spell attacks (AntiMagic-Field)
Disjunction (Supernatural AM-Field)
Ranged Attacks (Permeable Form + AM Field)
All but Corporeal Undead, elemental, outsider, construct (Supernatural Antilife Shell)
Divination (AM-field)
Restraints (Freedom of Movement)
Mind Affecting Spells & Effects (Sublime Revelry)
Blindness, Deafness, Critical Hits(=>Sneak attacks),Disease,Poison,Stunning,Drowning,Physiolo gy attacks (Stone Body)
Dazzled(Vision of the Omniscient Eye)
Planar Effects (Planar Bubble)

Renewal pact does auto-Panacea if we have an adverse condition effect us.

Fort 52 = [11(levels)+11(Con)+6(Resist)+12(Ruin Delver's Fortune+Benediction)+4(Holy Transformation)+5(Conviction)+3(True Prayer)]
Refl 49 = [5(levels)+11(Dex)+6(Resist)+12(Ruin Delver's Fortune+Benediction)+5(Shield of Warding)+2(Haste+Aerial Alacrity)+5(Conviction)+3(True Prayer) + Evasion (Ruin Delver's Fortune)]
Will 58 = [15(levels)+13(Wis)+6(Resist)+12(Ruin Delver's Fortune+Benediction)+4(Holy Transformation)+5(Conviction)+3(True Prayer)]

Speed 30' (Haste + stone body)
Fly 160' (Flight of the Dragon + Haste + Aerial Alacrity) Perfect(Wings of Air+Aerial Alacrity)
Swim: as Fly

Space 5' Reach 5'

Possessions:
Mithril Extreme Shield

At all times, we keep the following spells in effect:
Permanent and Instantaneous:
PH Arcane Sight See magic
PH Tongues Talk to Anyone
SC Stalwart Pact 1/2 hp -> +270 temp hp
FB Mantle of the Icy Soul Gain cold subtype
SC Resistance, Superior Save+6(Resist)
CD Renewal Pact Autopanacea if adverse condition
PH Reduce Person Small Size

Persistent or Long duration:
L1:
SC Conviction, OPE save+5(Morale)
ED Eyes of Avoral, OPE Spot+8(racial)
MoF Wieldskill, OPE Spot+10(competence)

L2:
SC Ghost Touch Armor, OPE Armor vs incorporeal
CC Benediction, OPE save+2(luck)
PHII Share Talents, E Skills+2

L3:
ToM True Prayer of the Chosen, PE Saves+3(insight)
SC Shield of Warding, OPE AC+5(Sacred), Refl+5(Sacred)
SC Recitation, PE AC+3(Luck)
PH Magic Vestment, E AC+5(Shield enhance)
HoB Battlemagic Perception, PE Detect all spellcasting in 100' range
DM Vision of the Omniscient Eye, PE Spot+10(insight), immune Dazzle
SC Anyspell -> Heroics, OPE, Improved Toughness, Dodge, Exotic Shield Proficiency, Shield Spec, Combat Expertise, Improved Combat Expertise, Improved Init Many Bonuses
SC Anyspell -> Battlehymn, PE Reroll 1 will/round
SC Anyspell -> Lightfoot, PE No AOO for moving
SC Anyspell -> Beastland Ferocity, OPE Stay up at negative HP
SC Anyspell -> Wings of Air, OPE Movement Category+1
SC Anyspell -> Nerveskitter (triaded) Init+5

L4:
ED Luminous Armor, Greater, E AC+8(force armor)
PH Freedom of Movement, OPE Immune restraints
SC Delay Death, OPE Can't die from HP damage
ED Remove Fatigue No need to sleep

L5:
PH Trueseeing, PE, Supernatural See invisible, in darkness, through illusions, true form
SC Greater Vigor, OPE Fast Heal 4
SC Divine Agility, OPE Dex+10(enhance)

L6:
SC Stone Body, PE DR 10/Adamantine, Immune blindness, critical hits, deafness, disease, Dex-4, speed/2
PH Alife Shell, PE, Supernatural Only undead, elemental, outsider, construct can approach
PHII Chasing Perfection, PE (supernatural) All stats+4(enhance)
PH 2*AM Field, PE, Supernatural No magic but your own affects you [Caster level 32]
FB Algid enhancement, MaxEmp, E (supernatural) 26temp hp + 18(enhance) to attack +19 deflect
SC Anticipate Teleportation, Greater, E 3 round delay for all teleporting in within 435'

SC Anyspell, Greater -> Bite of the Wereboar, PE Con+6(Enhance), Bite, NA+8(enhance)
SC Greater Anyspell -> Dragonsight, E X4 lowlight, x2 normal, 480' darkvision, 240' blindsense, 1/2 normal range penalty to spot
Hordes Greater Anyspell -> Inner Beauty, OPE Dex,Chr+4, Sacred + Stay up at Negative hp
PH Anyspell, Greater -> Invisibility, Greater, PE Invisible
LoM Anyspell, Greater -> Permeable Form, PE Incorporeal + Animated Shield
SC Anyspel, Greater ->Ruin Delver's Fortuner, PE Saves+chr(luck), Immune poison, Evasion, Fear
RoW Anyspell, Greater -> Aerial Alacrity, PE Better movement, AC/Refl+1 (Dodge)
PH Anyspell, Greater -> Haste, OPE A+1, AC+2(dodge), extra attack
SC Anyspell, Greater -> Hymn of Praise, PE caster level+2
DM Anyspell, Greater -> Primal Instinct, E Init/Survival+5(competence)
SC Anyspell, Greater -> Flight of the Dragon, PE Fly 100'

L7:
SC Holy Transformation, PE Str/Con/saves+4(Sacred), Evil -2 to attack you
SC Holy Star, PE AC+6(Circumstance)
SC Planar Bubble, OPE Native environment surrounds
SC Fortunate Fate, OPE Heal if -10 or less hp

L8:
PHII Visions of Future, E Sacred+2 save, AC+2 dodge

L9:
SC Greater Visage of the deity, PE Many bonuses
ED Sublime Revelry, OPE 1/2 damage from melee&ranged, immune mind-affecting

Extras:
SC Triadspell: Heroics + Anyspell+Nerveskitter Triply cast L3- spell

Just before Algid Enhancement:
MoI Adept Spirit Caster level+1(insight)
SC Anyspell, Greater-> Spell Enhancer Caster level+2

Spells Left: 4/7+1/5+1/2+1/5+1/3+1/0/0+1/5+1/5+1

I've left as many slots free as possible, which can be used in many ways. Some interesting choices are:
Disjunction
Supernatural Ocular MaxEmp Greater Harm dealing an SR:No 610 Will/2 damage with a 60' range.
Greater Plane Shift *2
Persistent buffing of melee & ranged attacks
Greater Anyspell -> Supernatural MaxEmp Ocular Shivering Touch an SR:no 46 dex damage with a 60' range
MaxEmp Boreal Wind
MaxEmp Freezing Armor

[FearlessGnome]

We'll nerf most Disjunction spellcasters by casting AM-field as a supernatural spell. A supernatural AM-field is no longer a valid target for Disjunction which works on "spells and spell-like effects" but not undispellable supernatural effects, which our AM-field is.Disjunction works just fine against supernatural effects. They are still magical. Still suppressed normally in an AMF. Still eligible for Disjunction.

[Anthrowhale]

Disjunction works just fine against supernatural effects. They are still magical. Still suppressed normally in an AMF. Still eligible for Disjunction.

I don't see that interpretation.

You have to parse very carefully. On the one hand it says "All magical effects ... are disjoined." And also, "... spells and spell-like effects are separated into their individual components (ending the effect as a dispel magic spell does)..." No explicit mention is made of supernatural effects but because a supernatural ability does not have components, disjoining should do nothing.

[Godskook]

nerf

You keep using this word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

-----------------------------

More to your question, greater consumptive field + AMF means that you're not entirely immune. Put that on a chasis thats stronger than yours, and voila.

Additionally, both omnifiscer and pun-pun can do it. I'm not sure how the omnificer is going to do it, but he does, cause he's the goddamn batmanomnificer.

[FearlessGnome]

I don't see that interpretation.

You have to parse very carefully. On the one hand it says "All magical effects ... are disjoined." And also, "... spells and spell-like effects are separated into their individual components (ending the effect as a dispel magic spell does)..." No explicit mention is made of supernatural effects but because a supernatural ability does not have components, disjoining should do nothing.Spell-likes do not have components unless otherwise noted. (It just so happens a lot of the spell-likes PCs can get explicitly keep the component costs.)

Disjunction takes on all magical effects. AMF and Disjunction interact in a special way. Making AMF supernatural does not stop that. "All magical effects..." is kind of clear, even if it gets a little confused later in the desciption.

[Anthrowhale]

You keep using this word. I do not think it means what you think it means.


To nerf (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nerf_%28computer_gaming%29)



More to your question, greater consumptive field + AMF means that you're not entirely immune. Put that on a chasis thats stronger than yours, and voila.

Additionally, both omnifiscer and pun-pun can do it. I'm not sure how the omnificer is going to do it, but he does, cause he's the goddamn batmanomnificer.

There are plenty of more cheesy approaches to get more power---I've made some. But is there a similar or less cheesy approach?

[Anthrowhale]

Spell-likes do not have components unless otherwise noted. (It just so happens a lot of the spell-likes PCs can get explicitly keep the component costs.)

Disjunction takes on all magical effects. AMF and Disjunction interact in a special way. Making AMF supernatural does not stop that. "All magical effects..." is kind of clear, even if it gets a little confused later in the desciption.

I can see the temptation for this interpretation, but there are many caveats to "All magical effects...are disjoined" listed so it's clear you can't just apply it uniformly.

[Godskook]

To nerf (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nerf_%28computer_gaming%29)

Ah, ty, now I don't have to quote the article. See, as the article you quoted describes, nerfs are "change(s) to a game", not 'changes to a character build'. If you wanted to nerf something, you do it via re-writing the underlying 'code' of the game in some way. In your OP, you're using the 'UI' and changing nothing about the 'code' of D&D. The more appropriate word would be 'counter'.


There are plenty of more cheesy approaches to get more power---I've made some. But is there a similar or less cheesy approach?

Consumptive field + AMF is definitely less cheesy than IoMystra. Its a smaller combo utilizing the same basic tricks you are, but just happens to win the caster level war.

Also, choosing one of the worst forms of cheese in the game, and then challenging people to beat it with 'less' cheese is bad form, to say the least.

[Ditto]

We should begin with a bag of flour... then, we punch you. :smallamused:


And yeah... AMF is subject to disjunction, just like any other (Su). In the specific % per CL way, still, but no reason it's exempted...

[Anthrowhale]

Ah, ty, now I don't have to quote the article. See, as the article you quoted describes, nerfs are "change(s) to a game", not 'changes to a character build'. If you wanted to nerf something, you do it via re-writing the underlying 'code' of the game in some way. In your OP, you're using the 'UI' and changing nothing about the 'code' of D&D. The more appropriate word would be 'counter'.


Ok.



Consumptive field + AMF is definitely less cheesy than IoMystra. Its a smaller combo utilizing the same basic tricks you are, but just happens to win the caster level war.


Perhaps I don't understand how to use Consumptive Field + AMF? Educate me.



Also, choosing one of the worst forms of cheese in the game, and then challenging people to beat it with 'less' cheese is bad form, to say the least.

IoMystra is clearly very powerful, but I believe it is used as intended here.

[Godskook]

Perhaps I don't understand how to use Consumptive Field + AMF? Educate me.

Oops, I was mis-remembering how AMFs work with each other. I thought it was a contest of CL between the two, but apparently:


Two or more antimagic fields sharing any of the same space have no effect on each other.

Which means that any schmuck that can UMD a scroll can outplay you, once
he got in range.

As far as Consumptive Field goes, that still works with Disjunction, getting a high enough CL to shred your AMF and buffs in a single go.


IoMystra is clearly very powerful, but I believe it is used as intended here.

1.You think the authors intended to make a feat that single-handedly created an entire tier of power within D&D optimization?

2.Just cause its working 'as intended' does not stop something from being cheesy.

[FearlessGnome]

IoMystra is clearly very powerful, but I believe it is used as intended here.Thought bottles are also very easy to use as intended. Some intentions are bad.

[Anthrowhale]

Which means that any schmuck that can UMD a scroll can outplay you, once he got in range.


Eh? IoMystra > UMD(AMF) in general.



As far as Consumptive Field goes, that still works with Disjunction, getting a high enough CL to shred your AMF and buffs in a single go.


You need caster level 71 to beat both AMFs with probability 0.5. That means you need caster level 48 before you Consumptive Field. How do you plan to get there?



1.You think the authors intended to make a feat that single-handedly created an entire tier of power within D&D optimization?


Yes? If it happened once, I might think "no", but lots of things seem intentionally very dangerously powerful in Faerun. Circle Magic, Node magic, IoMystra, Spell Dancers, Incantatrix, Beholder Mages, etc...



2.Just cause its working 'as intended' does not stop something from being cheesy.


This seems subjective. The important point is that this build can be made radically more powerful using the same tricks you are thinking about using to break this one. If we wanted to use those tricks, then this build would become even more powerful, and this should be taken into account when considering things.

[Anthrowhale]

And yeah... AMF is subject to disjunction, just like any other (Su). In the specific % per CL way, still, but no reason it's exempted...

Ok, I'm outvoted here. Incantatrix Metamagic Effect should still be countered.

[Godskook]

First, what book are you pulling IoM from, just to make sure we're both looking at the same book.


You need caster level 71 to beat both AMFs with probability 0.5. That means you need caster level 48 before you Consumptive Field. How do you plan to get there?

1.Get 300 standard goblins(oddly enough, catgirls work for this too).
2.Cast persistent greater consumptive field.
3.Walk among them.
4.???????
5.Profit


This seems subjective. The important point is that this build can be made radically more powerful using the same tricks you are thinking about using to break this one. If we wanted to use those tricks, then this build would become even more powerful, and this should be taken into account when considering things.

1.Not sure if responding to quoted text, or just adding random point.

2.There's really no point to trying to do Schroedinger's IoM build again. It happened already, and we get it, IoM is a powerful feat, and Schroedinger is a powerful way to ensure you're never 'technically' wrong. Or, you can just accept that you've posted a build, and the build posted isn't as strong as you apparently wanted it to be.

[Anthrowhale]

First, what book are you pulling IoM from, just to make sure we're both looking at the same book.


Player's guide to Faerun.



1.Get 300 standard goblins(oddly enough, catgirls work for this too).
2.Cast persistent greater consumptive field.
3.Walk among them.
4.???????
5.Profit


You are using an infinite loop here.

Can you think of a decent solution which isn't a similar build that:
(a) Doesn't use infinite loops.
(b) Doesn't use some variety of mindswitch to replace stats.
(c) Uses the same number of feats.
(d) Uses the same number of levels.
(e) Doesn't use ACFs.
(f) Doesn't violate wealth by level.
(g) Doesn't use cross-setting options.
(h) Doesn't use Dungeon Magazine.

So far, you have proposed a bunch of infinite loops. It doesn't interest me, as there are several infinite loops known, all of which result in infinite power of one sort or another. It's clear that any noninfinite-loop character is weaker than an infinite loop character, but I'm still interested in what can be done without an infinite loop.



2.There's really no point to trying to do Schroedinger's IoM build again. It happened already, and we get it, IoM is a powerful feat,...

I think you're misunderstanding the puzzle. You think the puzzle is "break this build with anything" from someone who is not aware of infinite loops. But, that's not the case---I understand infinite loops and they just don't interest me. I see I didn't state this explicitly in the initial post (my bad---I was thinking this as a continuation of the Beholder Mage of Mystra (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=223659) where I was explicit), but that is the intention. Given this, none of your proposals (all of which are standard infinite loops) are interesting.



... and Schroedinger is a powerful way to ensure you're never 'technically' wrong. Or, you can just accept that you've posted a build, and the build posted isn't as strong as you apparently wanted it to be.


That paint doesn't stick. I have already acknowledged that most think Disjunction works on a supernatural effect.

BTW, I found one flaw in the master plan: Supernatural Spell is a Supernatural ability, which doesn't work in the AMF. Consequently, we'll have to be very careful, casting Trueseeing, Algid Enhancement, Alife-shell, then AMF in a brief window without AMF, then following up with a level 8 (nonsupernatural)AMF for a little extra durability against Disjunctioners. We'll have to eat the 5gp/day casting cost of Chasing Perfection. Also, sadly, none of the supernatural spell attacks work without dismissing the AMF.

My understanding is:

(a) Disjunction spellcasters have a chance, but it's not significant unless they use circle magic + other enhancers to reach a very high caster level.

(b) Incantatrix can't do it.

(c) A standard Initiate of Mystra has only a small chance of casting in the AMF. (Besides, IoM on IoM action should be rare.)

(d) All weapon attacks don't work.

(e) All Orb spells don't work.

(f) Very few can physically attack. They must satisfy: {Construct, Corporeal Undead, Elemental, Outsider} with DR/magic. I just did a quick lookup---In the Monster Manual, it's just Solar, Nightcrawler, Salamander, Nightwalker, Nightwing, Barghest, Night Hag, Lich, Mephit, Magmin, and Vampire. None of these have a decent chance of hitting--and a maximally advanced Solar is the only one which makes us even use combat expertise.

Reducing a L16- Lich to "your best attack is a punch" is kind of funny.

[Glimbur]

Serren wood from BoED gives ranged attacks (bows and crossbows) Ghost Touch as a non-magical property. This leaves gaining a sufficient Spot check to get the proper square despite invisibility (DC 20 40, since you're moving), beating the miss chance from Invisibility (Pierce Magical Concealment would work), hitting your AC, and doing sufficient damage to drop you before you can respond. As this is a ranged attack, it's feasible to simply attack from concealment with sufficient Hide to be undetectable by anything short of Mindsight, Helping Hand (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/helpingHand.htm), or other specialized abilities.

Also, some of your numbers for AC are wrong. You can't stack the bonus from Greater Luminous Armor with Magic Vestment on clothing, as both are Armor bonuses.

[Anthrowhale]

Serren wood from BoED gives ranged attacks (bows and crossbows) Ghost Touch as a non-magical property. This leaves gaining a sufficient Spot check to get the proper square despite invisibility (DC 20 40, since you're moving), beating the miss chance from Invisibility (Pierce Magical Concealment would work), hitting your AC, and doing sufficient damage to drop you before you can respond. As this is a ranged attack, it's feasible to simply attack from concealment with sufficient Hide to be undetectable by anything short of Mindsight, Helping Hand (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/helpingHand.htm), or other specialized abilities.


That's a nice combination, with several things I hadn't understood or seen before. The Serren Wood + Pierce Magical Concealment + Hide drops AC to 60 and removes the miss chance. But Delay Death + Beastland Ferocity implies that no amount of arrow damage is adequate, right? And, even if we ignore that (which is an old trick), how would you deal 1446 damage @AC60 from nonmagical arrows?



Also, some of your numbers for AC are wrong. You can't stack the bonus from Greater Luminous Armor with Magic Vestment on clothing, as both are Armor bonuses.

I'm only using it on the shield.

[Hirax]

I've minimized cheese even further, using no character options from Unearthed Arcana, and doing nothing funny with Domains.

You're using Initiate of Mystra, commonly referred to as Cheater of Mystra (Google that and you'll see what I mean). You're not minimizing cheese at all, what you're doing is ornamenting a solid cheese core with fewer decorative cheese baubles. The fact that it's being used as intended doesn't change that, because it's something that's inherently cheesy (edit2: dweomerkeeper is another huge chunk of cheese). You can call that opinion if you want, but good luck finding many people that disagree. IoM is right up there with incantatrix as far as being stupidly broken.

Not to say that what you've posted isn't cool, because it is. But let's call a spade a spade. Also, you'll want to persist freedom of movement, or otherwise get grapple immunity, to prevent your brains from being eaten by mind flayers (an ex ability). Oops, it's on there, missed it.

[Anthrowhale]

You're using Initiate of Mystra, commonly referred to as Cheater of Mystra (Google that and you'll see what I mean). You're not minimizing cheese at all, what you're doing is ornamenting a solid cheese core with fewer decorative cheese baubles. The fact that it's being used as intended doesn't change that, because it's something that's inherently cheesy (edit2: dweomerkeeper is another huge chunk of cheese). You can call that opinion if you want, but good luck finding many people that disagree. IoM is right up there with incantatrix as far as being stupidly broken.


I found this one (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19872770/new_build:_The_Cheater_of_Mystra?pg=1). It's kind of tame in comparison. The Twice Betrayer of Shar is also a relevant antecedent. Both of these seem subsumed in this build.

Cheese seems pretty subjective. I've tried to outline what I mean in (a)-(h). I'm willing to relax (b)-(h) if that helps, but infinite loops seem entirely out of scope.

Also, you describe this as one core thing (IoM) ornamented, but I think of it as several things which synthesize into something greater than it's parts. Supernatural Spell, Circle magic, Persistomancy, and IoM all work together very nicely. If you take out any one of them, there is a significant drop in power.

It's even a quite plausible build, according to fluff: Mystra is one of 3 commonly worshiped deities in Rashemen where clerics are reasonably common. Initiate of Mystra is a very natural feat for a cleric of Mystra. Dweomer Keeper is a very natural prestige class for a cleric of Mystra. Hathran is also very natural, almost required, for an advanced cleric in Rashemen. We only use two prestige classes and have no short dips. The Frostburn spells are also very natural for Rashemen.



But let's call a spade a spade.

Sure, but I still distinguish infinite loops as significantly more cheesy.

[Godskook]

You are using an infinite loop here.

1.No, no I didn't. I didn't even loop.

2.The spell was used "as intended" as much as IoM is being used as such in this thread.

[Anthrowhale]

1.No, no I didn't. I didn't even loop.


Err?

We are reading the same Consumptive Field in the Spell Compendium, right? The one which limits caster level increase to half caster level?

I asked how you intended to reach caster level 48 so you could use Consumptive Field to reach caster level 71, so you could have an even chance of taking out the AMFs with a Disjunction. Your reply used Consumptive Field. That's the standard Consumptive Field infinite loop hack which allows one to reach infinite caster level. It's not even valid, as spells are expressly forbidden to be autocumulative.

[Godskook]

Err?

We are reading the same Consumptive Field in the Spell Compendium, right? The one which limits caster level increase to half caster level?

I asked how you intended to reach caster level 48 so you could use Consumptive Field to reach caster level 71, so you could have an even chance of taking out the AMFs with a Disjunction. Your reply used Consumptive Field. That's the standard Consumptive Field infinite loop hack which allows one to reach infinite caster level. It's not even valid, as spells are expressly forbidden to be autocumulative.

1.Derp on my part, at least about the looping. Still not infinite.

2.While the spells don't self-stack for increasing caster level, they do stack with each other, and that's all that's needed to get to CL 71.

[Anthrowhale]

1.Derp on my part, at least about the looping. Still not infinite.


All truncated infinite loops appear finite.



2.While the spells don't self-stack for increasing caster level, they do stack with each other, and that's all that's needed to get to CL 71.

Even if we let you use the enhanced caster level to define the half point (which is suspect), the most I see you reaching is caster level 39.

Day 1: 20+10
Day 2: 20+15
Day 3: 20+17
Day 4: 20+18
Day 5+: 20+19

Again, how do you reach caster level 71?

[Hirax]

Supernatural Spell, Circle magic, Persistomancy, and IoM all work together very nicely. If you take out any one of them, there is a significant drop in power.

Sure, but I still distinguish infinite loops as significantly more cheesy.

All of the bolded on their own are very cheesy, far more cheesy than flaws or ACFs. You're even using ocular spell and unlimited metamagic reducers to make persistomancy more broken than it already is, not to mention that not everyone accepts ocular spell as something that makes otherwise invalid spells persistable (I think it's fine, fwiw). I think IoM is appropriately labeled as the core, but it really doesn't matter. When put together they are unambiguously cheesy, a level of cheesy that few things can match. Again, write whatever you want off as opinion, but in all seriousness, good luck finding anyone that disagrees. Sure, infinite loops are more cheesy, but you're so far into the realm of cheese that it's quite strange for you to be protesting the use of that label. Take the fact that nobody has disagreed with the cheese label as a hint.

Also, persist friendly fire from Exemplars of Evil, it's superior to ray deflection, because it stops all ranged attacks. I believe at that point you will only be vulnerable to disjunction, melee, and area effects. Melee weapons aren't something I'd worry about, but arcane reach or project image could affect you with touch spells if they disable your AMF. Divine power, shapechanging into anything with high strength, algid enhancement, and true strike are an easy way to trivialize your AC, and we're not even scratching the surface. If you can get a high natural armor bonus, scintillating scales is an excellent way to skyrocket your deflection bonus. Creatures with natural armor bonuses in the 20s are plentiful, if you can polymorph into one (improved HP from higher con would be another benefit), then with bite of the wereboar you can easily bump your deflection bonus up to 30 or higher. You would need to do this before casting permeable form, of course. Persisted wraithstrike means your non-touch AC is meaningless, so don't worry about losing your natural armor bonus.

As far as area effects that don't allow SR, persisted dragon breath (SpC) with searing spell and other metamagic applied is one possible concern, due to it having unlimited uses, mitigated by the 1d4 cooldown time. If they're persisting admixtures for it the damage can cause problems even with a single hit. You'll want immunity to all energy types so that only the fire damage affects you, and only for half damage. Otherwise on a failed save you'll be taking hundreds of damage without improved evasion (in the neighborhood of 200-600 depending on the number of persisted admixtures). The fire portion would be 160+10d8 (maxed and empowered for 80+5d8, a mastery of elements or energy subbed admixture to double it), so half of that isn't too much of a threat, unless you're very good at rolling 1s.

You're only vulnerable on natural 1s, but they also get unlimited uses of the breath weapon. If they applied transdimensional spell to the persisted breath weapon, then repeatedly cast maze on you, you will still have to worry, though. Unless you can get your SR in the 90s to avoid the maze. A higher int would also give you better odds of getting out on your first try.

Again, this all assumes they disjoin your AMFs, and because you don't have foresight and your initiative isn't good (moment of prescience alone matches your initiative modifier), you're gambling that their first attempts will fail, and also that you'll be able to stop subsequent attempts. If they can get a surprise round then an initiative victory, that's 2 attempts before you can act. As a data point, a wizard I'm currently tinkering with has +52-56 to initiative, though unless you can get foresight, it's questionable whether it's worth optimizing initiative. If you can ensure you've got a better chance of winning initiative, I'd put in some work to counterspell disjunctions, rather than only relying their check to destroy AMFs failing. Using the exact same circle magic shenanigans and then other CL boosters after the circle magic, CL 50+ is no problem. Persisted greater consumptive field would provide a knockout blow, getting to at least CL75-80, depending on how many CL boosters you used post-circle magic to get a higher cap. Arcane casters can get consumptive field via arcane disciple (luck)+miracle+metamagic effect to allow for 2 divine spells to be cast on alternating days and have 48 hour durations. A level of archmage could then SLA miracle, allowing for 4 active cleric buffs 24/7.

Consider fitting in the destiny domain from Races of Destiny somehow. Then persist choose destiny, and keep warp destiny prepared. At that point you're immune to failing saves for most intents and purposes. Unless you can manage to roll 4 natural 1s in a row. If that happens, go buy a lottery ticket. :smallbiggrin:

How are you casting adept spirit? You need the incarnum spellcasting feat to cast [incarnum] spells. Also, have you combed this list (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19872350/Raising_Caster_Level)? There are plenty more ways for you to up your caster level. UMDing a talisman of 12 moons is a cheap and easy +2. Terran brandy is nice too, and at level 20 is a trivial recurring expense for another +2. I also don't see a bead of karma, which is usually the go to +4CL item. An ankh of ascension (+4) and band of spell enhancement (+2) are great for spells such as algid enhancement or spell resistance.

If it matters, a wizard5/incantatrix3/red wizard5/archmage5/something2 could do everything I mentioned in this post. Mage of the arcane order7 might be better for the last 7 levels, to eliminate the problems of specializing. These are just thumbsketch examples though, take them with a grain of salt. edit: and of course a cleric build that mirrors your own can accomplish most or all of these tricks.

[Godskook]

All truncated infinite loops appear finite.

But I'm not truncating one, so there's no worries.


Even if we let you use the enhanced caster level to define the half point (which is suspect), the most I see you reaching is caster level 39.

Day 1: 20+10
Day 2: 20+15
Day 3: 20+17
Day 4: 20+18
Day 5+: 20+19

Again, how do you reach caster level 71?

1.Cast Consumptive field(CL 20)
2.Get 10 failed saves(+10 CL)
3.Cast Greater consumptive field(CL 30)
4.Get 15 failed saves(+15 CL)
5.Cast Consumptive field(CL 45)
6.Get 22 failed saves(+22 CL, but we lost the +10 from step #2 right now)
7.Cast Greater consumptive field(CL 57)
8.Get 28 failed saves(+28 CL, but we lost the +15 from step #4 right now)
9.That's CL 70. An Ioun stone covers the last +1 CL, or any number of other CL increasers, cause the example hasn't used any yet, and we need 75 minions to pull it off. That's also 4 castings and less than a few minutes worth of effort.

[Hirax]

If you're going to leapfrog consumptive fields, just use circle magic and CL boosters to start at CL 50 (trivially easy), then do your first consumptive field to get to 75 CL, and subsequent ones to get to 96, then use a bead of karma for +4 to make 100, for a guaranteed disjunction. An added bonus of the 100% chance to disjoin the AMFs is that you'll then also nuke all buffs in the same shot.

[candycorn]

There's also using DMM Persist Power Leech (BoVD) for strength and Dexterity, using an Energy Transformation field and a simulacrum dragon to repeat cast a miracle for Greater Restoration. The commoner that you power leech will get stats restored over and over, your strength and dex keep going up.

Use a Serren wood bone bow (unusual, but legal), and your str bonus applies to arrow shots. You'll have roughly 14410 strength and dex (assuming starting stats of 10), for a +7200 to hit and damage. Use rapid shot and darkstalker, and you fire 2 shots, either of which hits on a 2+ and deals 1d8+7201 damage.

Divine Power will further boost this.

The only repeating loop is for Restoration of stats, and it's using Energy transformation field exactly as intended.

An Ur priest could get this fairly easily, and, if Power Leech is used for other stats, you could, with far shot, and the distance enchantment, easily spot and hit targets 2400 feet away.

Alternately, you could put a Disjunction in a staff, and UMD it to emulate caster level. With a +7200 to the roll, it's trivial to emulate caster level of 7000 for purposes of using the staff... and since staves use your caster level, that's also the automatic disjunction of AMF, as well as trivially bypassing damage reduction.

Not to mention, after a day or so of this, you'll have roughly 1700 bonus level 9 spells, as well as over 7000 turn attempts, so persisting everything isn't that difficult.

Really, the only thing you're limited on is the actions you have. Add in 2 levels of Ardent, Practiced Manifester, a bit of psychic theurge, and you could easily have 7th level powers, and about 50,000 bonus power points, so there's as many actions as you want.

Add on (at level 15) - about 108000 hp, assuming you roll a 1 on every hit die, +7200 ability bonus to every save (except will, which will be somewhat higher, maybe +7205). Initiative will be at over +7000, and you'll pretty much crush most knowledge checks. DC 7200 is virtually omnificer. If a skill has an epic usage, you'll crush it (balancing on a cloud while running through a wall of force? Child's play).

[Anthrowhale]

All of the bolded on their own are very cheesy, far more cheesy than flaws or ACFs.


Arguing about what is cheesy and what not doesn't seem very fun, because there is no definition and hence no agreement. Some people think cheesy = powerful, and other cheesy = bending the rules in unintended ways.



Also, persist friendly fire from Exemplars of Evil, it's superior to ray deflection, because it stops all ranged attacks. I believe at that


Wow, I hadn't seen that one before. I agree, it's superior.



point you will only be vulnerable to disjunction, melee, and area effects.


Area effects are gone unless we lose AMF, so I think it's just Disjunction and limited melee. If a Disjunction comes though, we lose everything, so having extra spells up for when we don't have AMF seems like a waste.



Melee weapons aren't something I'd worry about, but arcane reach or project image could affect you with touch spells if they disable your AMF. Divine power, shapechanging into anything with high strength, algid enhancement, and true strike are an easy way to trivialize your AC, and we're not even scratching the surface.


I'm not sure if this is for the Invulnerable or against. For, acquiring Shapechange as a cleric is nontrivial and it's kind of a drag to lose the instantaneous bonuses to physical stats.

Against, it must go through the AMF which wipes out all the magic (and again, a disjunction bringing down the AMF wipes out the high AC anyways).



If you can get a high natural armor bonus, scintillating scales is an excellent way to skyrocket your deflection bonus. Creatures with natural armor bonuses in the 20s are plentiful, if you can polymorph into one (improved HP from higher con would be another benefit), then with bite of the wereboar you can easily bump your deflection bonus up to 30 or higher. You would need to do this before casting permeable form, of course.


I thought about this, but usually high NA bonus implies size, and size is often a disadvantage. At touch AC 76 or 80 or 82, I'm not convinced there are threats capable of inflicting significant damage in melee while the AMF is up.



Persisted wraithstrike means your non-touch AC is meaningless, so don't worry about losing your natural armor bonus.


Also, permeable wipes it out anyways.



As far as area effects that don't allow SR, persisted dragon breath (SpC) with searing spell and other metamagic applied is one possible concern, due to it having unlimited uses, mitigated by the 1d4 cooldown time. If they're persisting admixtures for it the damage can cause problems even with a single hit. You'll want immunity to all energy types so that only the fire damage affects you, and only for half damage.


I believe, all area effect spells are dead with AMF+Permeable form. They are either suppressed by AMF if magical or suppressed by Permeable form if nonmagical. Actual dragon breaths are supernatural, and hence suppressed by AMF.

The only way I believe that spells can deal damage is via IoM (difficult given advanced caster level) or Epic (out of scope).

If you want to worry about what happens post disjunction, I think it's much better to have an item of get-me-outta-here.



Again, this all assumes they disjoin your AMFs, and because you don't have foresight and your initiative isn't good (moment of prescience alone matches your initiative modifier), you're gambling that their first attempts will fail, and also that you'll be able to stop subsequent attempts. If they can get a surprise round then an initiative victory, that's 2 attempts before you can act. As a data point, a wizard I'm currently tinkering with has +52-56 to initiative, though unless you can get foresight, it's questionable whether it's worth optimizing initiative. If you can ensure you've got a better chance of winning initiative, I'd put in some work to counterspell disjunctions, rather than only relying their check to destroy AMFs failing.


The lack of foresight is painful. We do at least have battlemagic perception + disjunction memorized in the 9th level domain slot, allowing us to counterspell one disjunction attempt.



Using the exact same circle magic shenanigans and then other CL boosters after the circle magic, CL 50+ is no problem. Persisted greater consumptive field would provide a knockout blow, getting to at least CL75-80, depending on how many CL boosters you used post-circle magic to get a higher cap. Arcane casters can get consumptive field via arcane disciple (luck)+miracle+metamagic effect to allow for 2 divine spells to be cast on alternating days and have 48 hour durations. A level of archmage could then SLA miracle, allowing for 4 active cleric buffs 24/7.


So, some red wizard type. But, free miracles every day is pushing out of my comfort zone of optimization. If you are just doing this for consumptive field, Dweomer Keeper + Wish seems a more direct route. Then at least, you aren't relying on a god to back you up.



Consider fitting in the destiny domain from Races of Destiny somehow. Then persist choose destiny, and keep warp destiny prepared. At that point you're immune to failing saves for most intents and purposes. Unless you can manage to roll 4 natural 1s in a row. If that happens, go buy a lottery ticket. :smallbiggrin:


I thought about this. It doesn't easily fit into this build, but there is an alternate more optimized approach:

Archivist 3/Church Inquisitor 2/Dweomer Keeper 2/Hathran 5/Dweomer Keeper 8 optimizing Int with the same feats. This nets you more skill points (hide + diplomacy appeal), and much greater spell access (choose destiny and foresight), at the cost of relying on the DM for leniency w.r.t. Archivist spells and Church Inquisitor access, and Substitute Domain as a valid entry for DK.



How are you casting adept spirit? You need the incarnum spellcasting feat to cast [incarnum] spells.


Good point, I missed that. Swapping for Mystic Surge from an ally is probably an adequate alternative.



Also, have you combed this list (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19872350/Raising_Caster_Level)? There are plenty more ways for you to up your caster level. UMDing a talisman of 12 moons is a cheap and easy +2. Terran brandy is nice too, and at level 20 is a trivial recurring expense for another +2. I also don't see a bead of karma, which is usually the go to +4CL item. An ankh of ascension (+4) and band of spell enhancement (+2) are great for spells such as algid enhancement or spell resistance.


At the time, I was thinking of always on AMF, free, and alignment as constraints. Given that we must have AMF for 4 rounds every 2 days, this needs to be revisited.



If it matters, a wizard5/incantatrix3/red wizard5/archmage5/something2 could do everything I mentioned in this post. Mage of the arcane order7 might be better for the last 7 levels, to eliminate the problems of specializing.


I hadn't seen the consumptive field red wizard before. That does generate a very dangerous caster level.

[Anthrowhale]

But I'm not truncating one, so there's no worries.
1.Cast Consumptive field(CL 20)
2.Get 10 failed saves(+10 CL)
3.Cast Greater consumptive field(CL 30)
4.Get 15 failed saves(+15 CL)
5.Cast Consumptive field(CL 45)
6.Get 22 failed saves(+22 CL, but we lost the +10 from step #2 right now)
7.Cast Greater consumptive field(CL 57)
8.Get 28 failed saves(+28 CL, but we lost the +15 from step #4 right now)


This is another infinite loop, which you can check by noticing that no caster level is unachievable by repeatedly using the CF+GCF loop. Unlike the last one, you could argue it's legal, but it's still an infinite loop, and hence not very interesting to me.

[Godskook]

This is another infinite loop, which you can check by noticing that no caster level is unachievable by repeatedly using the CF+GCF loop. Unlike the last one, you could argue it's legal, but it's still an infinite loop, and hence not very interesting to me.

You can call it an infinite loop, but that still doesn't make it one. I looped once, and it cost me resources to do so(minions and spell slots). Even in MtG terms, this isn't truly infinite, cause I lack the resources(life-span, minions, and slots) to make it so.

[Anthrowhale]

There's also using DMM Persist Power Leech (BoVD) for strength and Dexterity, using an Energy Transformation field and a simulacrum dragon to repeat cast a miracle for Greater Restoration. The commoner that you power leech will get stats restored over and over, your strength and dex keep going up.


Sorry, infinite loop. This does seem like a valid one, but it's still an infinite loop.



Alternately, you could put a Disjunction in a staff, and UMD it to emulate caster level.


That's potentially interesting, but you need to separate it's use from the infinite loop. How do you get a high enough UMD without the infinite loop?

[Hirax]

So, some red wizard type. But, free miracles every day is pushing out of my comfort zone of optimization. If you are just doing this for consumptive field, Dweomer Keeper + Wish seems a more direct route. Then at least, you aren't relying on a god to back you up.


To be clear, the miracles aren't free, they require the use of spell slots just like all your buffs. I don't understand why that's out of your realm of optimization when you're already doing what you're doing, but meh.

Also, I reread the proposed use of consumptive field, and some of the discussion is confusing me, because it isn't an infinite loop. It doesn't stack with itself, it overlaps. If it stacked with itself, then so would spells like haste, which provides an unnamed bonus to attack rolls and dodge bonuses to reflex and AC. Which would be awesome for persistomancers, but it's not how it works, unnamed bonuses don't stack if they come from the same source, and a different casting of the same spell doesn't qualify as a different source. Supposing you cast it with a CL of 50 to get to 75, or a bonus of +25, then cast cast it again at CL 75, it overlaps with the old one, and does not stack. But you still cast it at CL 75, thus the second one could get you +37 (+12 from the last), replacing the +25, the third would only get you an additional +6, and the 4th would only get you +3. A 5th and 6th casting would get you to 98 and 99, at which point it would stall without additional CL assistance, hence why I proposed using the bead of karma once you hit CL 96. The diminishing returns make me think there's a use I'm missing somewhere that could get infinite CL.

Also, for good shapechange forms if you're able, look no further than the chronotyryn. 22 natural armor (30 with wereboar), sonic immunity, pretty good physical stats (remember inherent bonuses and enhancement bonuses improve shapechange stats further), natural 70' flight, and the ability to take twice as many actions per turn (2 swift, 2 standard, 2 move). Use lord of the sky (Dragon Magic) to get your maneuverability to good, then aerial alacrity to get it to perfect. Large size, but that's a small price to pay for double actions.

[Anthrowhale]

You can call it an infinite loop, but that still doesn't make it one. I looped once, and it cost me resources to do so(minions and spell slots). Even in MtG terms, this isn't truly infinite, cause I lack the resources(life-span, minions, and slots) to make it so.

You're not understanding the game. Imagine there is a sane DM, one who doesn't allow infinite loops. What is the sane DM going to do when you introduce a loop that is indistinguishable from infinite? The DM is going to treat it just like an infinite loop, and break it at the first step. As a DM, I'd probably not even allow GCF to accumulate with CF or Death Knell, because there is no reason in principle why you couldn't research different spells with similar effects creating an infinite loop.

[Anthrowhale]

To be clear, the miracles aren't free, they require the use of spell slots just like all your buffs. I don't understand why that's out of your realm of optimization when you're already doing what you're doing, but meh.


It's because you are relying upon explicit deific attention every time you cast miracle. Maybe that works out, but it's easy to imagine valid in-game reasons why it would not.



Also, I reread the proposed use of consumptive field, and some of the discussion is confusing me, because it isn't an infinite loop. It doesn't stack with itself, it overlaps. If it stacked with itself, then so would spells like haste, which provides an unnamed bonus to attack rolls and dodge bonuses to reflex and AC. Which would be awesome for persistomancers, but it's not how it works, unnamed bonuses don't stack if they come from the same source, and a different casting of the same spell doesn't qualify as a different source. Supposing you cast it with a CL of 50 to get to 75, or a bonus of +25, then cast cast it again at CL 75, it overlaps with the old one, and does not stack. But you still cast it at CL 75, thus the second one could get you +37 (+12 from the last), replacing the +25, the third would only get you an additional +6, and the 4th would only get you +3. A 5th and 6th casting would get you to 98 and 99, at which point it would stall without additional CL assistance, hence why I proposed using the bead of karma once you hit CL 96. The diminishing returns make me think there's a use I'm missing somewhere that could get infinite CL.


The proposal was alternating CF and GCF, which in theory would allow infinite caster level, even when taking into account overlap.



Also, for good shapechange forms if you're able, look no further than the chronotyryn. 22 natural armor (30 with wereboar), sonic immunity, pretty good physical stats (remember inherent bonuses and enhancement bonuses improve shapechange stats further), natural 70' flight, and the ability to take twice as many actions per turn (2 swift, 2 standard, 2 move). Use lord of the sky (Dragon Magic) to get your maneuverability to good, then aerial alacrity to get it to perfect. Large size, but that's a small price to pay for double actions.

Chronotyryn is not so impressive for us, because the dual actions are Su---AMF is a harsh mistress in many ways. The flight is also superceded by dragonflight. The Dex, Con, and NA are decent.

Why do inherent bonuses improve shapechange stats? I was assuming they are lost while your physical stats are overwritten due to order of effect.

[Hirax]

You've got no shortage of questionable features in your build. One that hasn't been touched on yet is the availability of and unlimited access to a level 6 node, something that would be one of the most sought after and treasured features of the entire plane, and that's if one even exists. This on top of everything else that's been mentioned. But you protest that there might be in game reasons miracle isn't available? Clerics get specific attention from deities every single day for their spells. To protest the use of miracle by a 20th level character, who by now could very well be known and favored by their deity, for something that's unambiguously within the spell description, is nothing short of insane, in particular when you've used the tools that you have. I'm done here, this is getting far too strange, and you're being far more critical of the things others are posting than you are your own build.

[Anthrowhale]

You've got no shortage of questionable features in your build. One that hasn't been touched on yet is the availability of and unlimited access to a level 6 node, something that would be one of the most sought after and treasured features of the entire plane, and that's if one even exists.


The revised complete build, which we have otherwise been discussing since (for example) it's the one missing foresight only requires an L3 earth node. This seems reasonable to me, as you could commission it by node genesis and wait 5 years for it to ripen. This is within budget.



This on top of everything else that's been mentioned. But you protest that there might be in game reasons miracle isn't available? Clerics get specific attention from deities every single day for their spells. To protest the use of miracle by a 20th level character, who by now could very well be known and favored by their deity, for something that's unambiguously within the spell description, is nothing short of insane, in particular when you've used the tools that you have. I'm done here, this is getting far too strange, and you're being far more critical of the things others are posting than you are your own build.


Well, let me say thanks for your suggestions, I'm considering them.

But if your not gone, I'm curious what you find unnatural.

According to the text, Clerics are 1 of the 2 most common spellcasters in Rashemen, which is particularly noted for having powerful spellcasters. Mystra is 1 of the 3 most commonly worshipped deities. Alignment is NG, exactly as Mystra, and never varies. IoM is an extremely natural feat for a cleric of Mystra and Dweomer Keeper seems like the most natural of all prestige classes for a cleric of Mystra. A background in Rashemen implies levels in Hathran are almost required for an advanced spellcaster. This takes care of IoM, Circle Magic, and Supernatural Spells. The last trick is Persistomancy, which requires substantial metamagic + node magic. These seem plausible choices for a cleric of Mystra. The set of spells that need to be found is much smaller than most wizards acquire over a lifetime.

The only other thing I recall discussion of was Ocular to expand the scope of Persistent. Here, I don't understand any argument that Ocular doesn't create spells with a fixed range, as required for Persistent.

[candycorn]

Sorry, infinite loop. This does seem like a valid one, but it's still an infinite loop.Spell Clock, Resetting trap, there are a number of ways to do it. Could even do it with leadership, and layering effects on each follower. Would take many more castings, but with the benefits granting you around 7000 total bonus slots of level 6+... it's doable.


That's potentially interesting, but you need to separate it's use from the infinite loop. How do you get a high enough UMD without the infinite loop?
Getting +100 UMD isn't that hard. There are spells that grant +20 on a check, spells that give you a nat 20, over 20 ranks, getting a +10 charisma's doable, easily (+13 is attainable, actually), and you've got a 70-80 right there, without even thinking hard about it.

Alternately, there are ways to substitute one skill for another (see: Jumplomancer)... just jumplomance UMD. Jump is insanely easy to boost.

EDIT: Moment of Prescience (+25), Ranks +23, Item Familiar: +23, Ability: +13, Improvisation: +12, Heroism: +2, Skill Focus: +3, and the spell that lets you expend it to automatically treat a 20 roll as a 20. That there will yield a check of 121, which is enough to activate a staff as if you had Caster Level 101. Now, assume the next roll, for ability modifier, rolls a 1. Roll result (76), for an effective casting stat of 61, for purposes of using the staff. That yields a save DC, for disjunction, of 44. Roll of 10? DC 49. Rolled a 20? DC 54. Not insurmountable, but it'll take away a good portion of the save resistances, all the persist and permanent spells, and the second casting will likely demolish all the items, without the spells and AMF boosting saves.

[Anthrowhale]

Spell Clock, Resetting trap, there are a number of ways to do it.


Right, there are many infinite loops.



Could even do it with leadership, and layering effects on each follower. Would take many more castings, but with the benefits granting you around 7000 total bonus slots of level 6+... it's doable.

I don't follow this. Multiple castings of power leech are not cumulative: they would overlap.



Getting +100 UMD isn't that hard.


I think you want UMD 120 in the ideal case to get caster level 100 via Emulate Class Feature.



Alternately, there are ways to substitute one skill for another (see: Jumplomancer)... just jumplomance UMD. Jump is insanely easy to boost.


I don't know a viable substitution path leading to UMD.



EDIT: Moment of Prescience (+25), Ranks +23, Item Familiar: +23, Ability: +13, Improvisation: +12, Heroism: +2, Skill Focus: +3, and the spell that lets you expend it to automatically treat a 20 roll as a 20. That there will yield a check of 121, which is enough to activate a staff as if you had Caster Level 101. Now, assume the next roll, for ability modifier, rolls a 1. Roll result (76), for an effective casting stat of 61, for purposes of using the staff. That yields a save DC, for disjunction, of 44. Roll of 10? DC 49. Rolled a 20? DC 54. Not insurmountable, but it'll take away a good portion of the save resistances, all the persist and permanent spells, and the second casting will likely demolish all the items, without the spells and AMF boosting saves.

If I understand correctly, the maximum bonus from Item Familiar is +7 (=21/3) since you can't invest more skill ranks there than normal. But a Bard/Sublime Chord could also cast Moment of Prescience and get another +25 and Greater Heroism gives +2 more. This is a viable attack, if a little bit tricky, because some of the spells are short duration.

[candycorn]

If I understand correctly, the maximum bonus from Item Familiar is +7 (=21/3) since you can't invest more skill ranks there than normal. But a Bard/Sublime Chord could also cast Moment of Prescience and get another +25 and Greater Heroism gives +2 more. This is a viable attack, if a little bit tricky, because some of the spells are short duration.

Item familiar rules are thus:


Whenever a character with an item familiar gains skill points, he may choose to put some or all of those skill points into his item familiar. He assigns the skill points normally, but notes that they now reside in the item familiar. For every 3 ranks he assigns to the item familiar, he gains a +1 bonus that he can apply to any single skill. This bonus can be applied to a skill in which he already has maximum ranks. He can apply multiple bonuses to the same skill, but he may not have more points of bonus in a skill than he has ranks.Bolded for emphasis.

So, if, at level 20, I have 69 total skill points invested in the familiar (say, all my UMD, all my Spellcraft, and all my Concentration), I have 23 +1 bonuses that I can apply to any skill, with the limit of no more bonuses than I have ranks in that skill.

Since I have 23 ranks in UMD, I can place all 23 of those bonuses in UMD, gaining an additional +23 to the check.

If I had an intelligence of 16, and had a 2+ int class, over 15 levels, I would gain a total of 75 skill points that could be invested to the item familiar. In this case, I would have 25 +1 bonuses. In this case, I would still be limited to assigning 23 of them to my UMD (as I only have 23 ranks in that skill).

In other words, you don't have to assign the bonus to the same skill you invest in the familiar, and you don't have any limit to the number of ranks you can invest.

In fact, if you were a factotum 20, this would work even better. Even though you may only have a +3 to your charisma, you could use inspiration to add your factotum level as well. It would be expensive, getting all the SLA's to pull this off... But you could get positively prohibitive bonuses, especially if you had Improvisation in a staff. Get a CL 100 for the staff, and you get 200 bonus points for skill checks, with up to 50 on any one skill.

So, this means: Moment of Prescience (+25), Ranks +23, Item Familiar: +23, Ability: +2, Heroism: +2, Skill Focus: +3, Factotum +20 and the spell that lets you expend it to automatically treat a 20 roll as a 20, to activate Improvisation.

That makes your roll 118, for a caster level of 98. Now activate it again, without moment of prescience, and assuming you roll a 10.

Ranks +23, Item Familiar: +23, Ability: +2, Heroism: +2, Skill Focus: +3, Improvisation: +49, Roll: 10.

Result 112, to emulate the attribute on the next casting. That's an ability score of 97, which is a modifier of 43, for a Disjunction save DC of 62. Activate a second MoP, and you get a minimum result of 128, which exceeds the caster level needed to disjoin an AMF with 100% chance. The resulting saves for disjoining items would be... Most difficult.

Since Improvisation has a cap that is only limited by your Caster level, it works wonderfully with this.

[Anthrowhale]

Item familiar rules are thus:

Bolded for emphasis.


Good thanks, I hadn't fully understood. Item familiars seem very powerful.

So the threats we have are:

(1) Caster maxing Circle Consumptive Field Disjunction
(2) maxUMD Staff Disjunction
(3) Circle IoM (i.e. similar build)
(4) Epic Spells

I don't yet see how to make the Serren Wood approach viable. The Friendly Fire spell would wipe out the approach, but it's still academically interesting to know if it's exploitable.

[Glimbur]

Serren Wood can only be used on bows and arrows and bolts; luckily there is the Elvencraft Bow in Races of the Wild which is clearly a bow but can also be used as a melee weapon. But it's suicide to hang out in an AMF, so I suggest getting sufficient reach to hit the foe from outside of the field. It's only a 10' radius emanation, so Enlarge Person + Aberrant Reach (feat chain, Lords of Madness) is sufficient. Put in Stand Still (feat, SRD) to reduce the risk of the AMF being moved on to you. I don't see any protection against death by massive damage, so if you can get 20 hits of 50+ damage onto the target then he should die. This bypasses Stalwart Pact, Delay Death, Beastland Ferocity (which you can't have anyway because it is [mind affecting] and Sublime Revelry makes you immune to [mind affecting].

Summary: Attack via elf-craft serrern wood bow, kill via massive damage.

Complications: Locating target, winning initiative, Hitting AC, doing sufficient damage/swing.

I'm too lazy to make an actual build for this, but it seems feasible.

[Anthrowhale]

Serren Wood can only be used on bows and arrows and bolts; luckily there is the Elvencraft Bow in Races of the Wild which is clearly a bow but can also be used as a melee weapon.


Cool.



But it's suicide to hang out in an AMF, so I suggest getting sufficient reach to hit the foe from outside of the field. It's only a 10' radius emanation, so Enlarge Person + Aberrant Reach (feat chain, Lords of Madness) is sufficient.


None of the elvencraft bows are reach weapons, so your 15' reach plausibly includes more than 5' of arm reach when using either a shortbow-club or longbow-quarterstaff in the standard manner. The large longbow-quarterstaff is plausibly 12', so it's reasonable to allow wielding in a nonstandard fashion from in exchange for a nonproficiency penalty.

A larger size (and longer reach) would help. Ring of spell storing (giant size) gives you huge. UMD Staff (Giant Size) can give you colossal with a significant strength bonus. Size is not helpful in surprise, of course. It would require a truly impressive Serren wood tree branch.



Put in Stand Still (feat, SRD) to reduce the risk of the AMF being moved on to you.


This doesn't appear to work with the Lightfoot spell because no AOO is ever granted. Better kill in the first round.



I don't see any protection against death by massive damage, so if you can get 20 hits of 50+ damage onto the target then he should die. This bypasses Stalwart Pact, Delay Death, ...


You need 20 hits of 120+ damage, right? Due to Sublime Revelry (1/2 damage) + DR/Adamantine 10. That's not much of a shortcut, but it would at least allow you to get around the Delay Death.



Beastland Ferocity (which you can't have anyway because it is [mind affecting] and Sublime Revelry makes you immune to [mind affecting].


Oops, I thought I nuked all of those. Consider it gone.



Summary: Attack via elf-craft serrern wood bow, kill via massive damage.

Complications: Locating target, winning initiative, Hitting AC, doing sufficient damage/swing.

I'm too lazy to make an actual build for this, but it seems feasible.

Does it still seem feasible to do 120 damage/hit @AC 64? You get 10.5 from the colossal quarterstaff. Wielded as an improvised weapon, you could get 40 from Power Attack + Shock trooper. Adding in Leap Attack gives another 40 (didn't know about the errata until just now). Your strength might be 25+5(instantaneous)+32(enhance)+4(morale)+4(sacred ) providing a +45 damage modifier. That's 135.5 @ +54 = +20(BAB)+30(Str)+2(charge)+2(WF+GWF)+4 Greater Heroism-4(improvised) to hit. This is decent, but the to-hit is too low. How do you get it up enough?

[enderlord99]

You're trying to make an invincible character (http://lmgtfy.com/?q=%22twice+betrayer+of+shar%22)?

[candycorn]

You're trying to make an invincible character (http://lmgtfy.com/?q=%22twice+betrayer+of+shar%22)?

A CL 100 Disjunction will still wipe out all the Twice Betrayer's buffs, along with the AMFs, and 95% of his items, and his contingencies/contingent spells.

In other words, super disjoining via UMD staff use will drop the betrayer as easily as the other build.

If you precede it with sufficient damage to put the Twice Betrayer into negative HP (as he's not immune to damage, merely death by damage), then the dispelling of the Delay Death will insta-gib it.

[Anthrowhale]

You're trying to make an invincible character (http://lmgtfy.com/?q=%22twice+betrayer+of+shar%22)?

That's one starting point. We've managed to lose vulnerability to IoM and Metamagic Effect, and make it not easy to interrupt.

[Anthrowhale]

How do you get it up enough?

The easy way to penetrate the AC is apparently via the 'Pierce Magical Protection' feat.

[Anthrowhale]

The Rules Compendium revision of antimagic makes the effects of Permeable Form unpredictable in an AM field. See the discussion here (http://http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=225533&page=3).