General Illusionist Tactics

[Heliomance]

Illusion has the potential to be one of, if not the, most powerful schools of magic. Its power is limited only by your imagination. The power to make your enemies see only what you want them to is an amazing one.

This thread is not about specific builds, nor about making your illusions real and hurting people with them. It's about ideas, about imaginative ways to use your illusions, the most open ended spells in the game.

Discussion of specific spells is not outside the scope of this thread, but mostly I'm thinking of the pure figment and phantasm spells, the ones that create images of things that aren't there. So if you have a fun way to mess with your enemy's head, post it here!

-When running down a corridor with a bend in it, stop to place an illusion making it seem like the bend is five feet further on than it really is. Watch the people chasing you slam into the wall.

-When on a cliff top, extend the ground out into empty space, and lure your enemy into plummeting to their doom. Bonus points if you use some method of flight to "stand" on the non-existant ground.

-"Summon" something big and nasty to intimidate your foes.

-Put an illusion of more wall across a door to hide it.

I'm sure you all can come up with more ideas. Go!

[Gwendol]

A player of mine used silent image to create an illusion of being shrouded in flames when fighting trolls.

[killem2]

Taunting a bunch of orcs with a thorn voice from ventriloquism, then getting close enough after they fell for it with a surprise attack!

[MesiDoomstalker]

Illusion of a big hole. So versatile. Have persuers? Throw a big hole in their path. Unless they try to jump it and fail (and the hole should be big enough that non-flyers shouldn't be able to clear it) they never realize its fake, because they don't interact with it.

Can also work with things like cave-ins or collapsed ceilings but that has greater risk of being interacted with.

Bonus points if the persuers know you use illusions and create an illusion of a (smaller) hole over a real hole. They'll fall into the real one when they try to walk over the fake one.

A bit high level, but using Transmute Rock to Lava then laying down an illusion of normal floor (whatever that may be) and watch and laugh as your perseurs try to run through fresh lava.

[Yora]

Illusion of a big hole. So versatile. Have persuers? Throw a big hole in their path. Unless they try to jump it and fail (and the hole should be big enough that non-flyers shouldn't be able to clear it) they never realize its fake, because they don't interact with it.
Also the inverse. Illusory wall can also create illusory floors.

[Gwendol]

At one time we infiltrated a castle by posing as an entertainment troupe; making a big show about building a stage and practicing, then campered off in search of treasure, while illusions of ourselves entertained the lord and his guards.

[GodGoblin]

I personally love the fake bridge over a river, or even a huge ravine for that matter! Its a classic but ah its fun :smallsmile:

[navar100]

The party needed to get into a mountain fortress. There were skeleton guards we didn't want to fight because it would alert those inside the fortress. From a distance away, I cast Silent Image on the path we are walking near the skeletons of that same path but empty to hide our approach. The skeletons don't notice us, but now we have time to assess the situation better.

There's a land bridge we need to cross but we have to walk close by the skeletons. We will be making noise. I ask the DM what sounds do I hear. He tells me it's mostly quiet, but there is a brook nearby with the occasional splashing of water. I cast Ghost Sound to mimic the water near the skeletons where we have to pass to hide our walking noise. I need to recast Silent Image (as a Sorcerer it's easy to do) with an area large enough to cover part of the land bridge and the skeleton patrol. The image is of the exact same area. With Ghost Sound muffling our walking, we walk by the skeletons unnoticed.

When we get to the landbridge two humans come out of the fortress. We stop. I maintain the illusion of an empty landbridge. The two humans talk a bit, and we hear useful information. With the human seeing the situation outside as normal, they go back into the fortress. We follow.

Inside the gated area but outside the main doors, we quickly hide inside stables. The area around the main doors is crowded. We need a distractions. We set fire to the stables. With everyone concerned about the fire, they won't notice us going through the main doors. As an added circumstance, I cast Prestidigitation of smoke, both to make the fire appear worse than it is and cover our leaving the stables. The plan worked. No one saw us leave the stables nor enter the fortress. The bad guys never knew we were there until it was time to strike.

That was AWESOME!

[Fax Celestis]

These variants (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/specialistWizardVariants.htm#illusionistVariants) are actually worth their weight, in my opinion, particularly the third one.


Chains of Disbelief (Ex)
Even if a viewer disbelieves an illusion created by an illusionist using this variant and communicates the details of the illusion to other creatures, those other creatures do not receive the normal +4 bonus on their saying throws to disbelieve the illusion. Furthermore, even when presented with incontrovertible proof that the illusion isn't real, creatures must still succeed on a Will saving throw to see objects or creatures that the illusion obscures, although they get a +10 bonus on the saving throw.

An illusionist using this variant permanently gives up the ability to obtain a familiar.

Shadow Shaper
An illusionist using this variant has a special bond with the Plane of Shadow, and gains several special abilities as he advances in level.

At 1st level, Hide is treated as a class skill for the illusionist.

At 5th level, the illusionist may add his Intelligence modifier (in addition to his Dexterity modifier) to his Hide skill checks.

At 10th level the illusionist's illusions become infused with shadow stuff from the Plane of shadow, making them more realistic and more likely to fool the senses. The save DCs of the illusionist's illusion spells increase by +1. This benefit stacks with similar bonuses, such as from Spell Focus.

At 15th level, the illusionist can hide in plain sight (as the ranger ability, except that the illusionist need not be in natural terrain).

At 20th level, the illusionist gains the ability to blend into shadows. In any condition of illumination that would normally grant the illusionist concealment, he instead gains total concealment (as if he were invisible).

An illusionist using this variant does not gain bonus feats for advancing as a wizard.

Illusion Mastery (Ex)
An illusionist using this variant automatically adds two illusion spells to his spellbook every time he gains a level that grants access to a new spell level. Furthermore, any time the illusionist learns a new illusion spell, he treats that spell as if be had mastered it with the Spell Mastery feat.

An illusionist using this variant does not gain additional spells per day for being a specialist wizard.

Illusion Mastery allows you to do some interesting things with Signature Spell (PGtF):

Prerequisite: Spell Mastery.
Benefit: Choose one spell that you have mastered with the Spell Mastery feat as your signature spell. You may now convert prepared arcane spells of that spell's level or higher into your signature spell, just as a good cleric can spontaneously cast prepared spells as cure spells.
Special: You can gain Signature Spell multiple times. Each time you take the feat, it applies to a different mastered spell.

And, it synergizes very well with the Master Specialist's Focused Spellbook ability:

Expanded Spellbook: When you reach 2nd level, you can add one spell of your chosen school to your spellbook. The spell can be of any level that you can cast, and it is in addition to the normal spells gained when increasing your level. You can add another spell of your chosen school to your spellbook at 5th and at 8th level.

I'm slowly hammering out a build. The tenth level Master Specialist esoterica for illusion (free still/silent/eschew) is tempting, but it almost seems worthwhile to just stop at 7th for the moderate esoterica (concealment).

[Shadowleaf]

The party needed to get into a mountain fortress. There were skeleton guards we didn't want to fight because it would alert those inside the fortress. From a distance away, I cast Silent Image on the path we are walking near the skeletons of that same path but empty to hide our approach. The skeletons don't notice us, but now we have time to assess the situation better.

There's a land bridge we need to cross but we have to walk close by the skeletons. We will be making noise. I ask the DM what sounds do I hear. He tells me it's mostly quiet, but there is a brook nearby with the occasional splashing of water. I cast Ghost Sound to mimic the water near the skeletons where we have to pass to hide our walking noise. I need to recast Silent Image (as a Sorcerer it's easy to do) with an area large enough to cover part of the land bridge and the skeleton patrol. The image is of the exact same area. With Ghost Sound muffling our walking, we walk by the skeletons unnoticed.

When we get to the landbridge two humans come out of the fortress. We stop. I maintain the illusion of an empty landbridge. The two humans talk a bit, and we hear useful information. With the human seeing the situation outside as normal, they go back into the fortress. We follow.

Inside the gated area but outside the main doors, we quickly hide inside stables. The area around the main doors is crowded. We need a distractions. We set fire to the stables. With everyone concerned about the fire, they won't notice us going through the main doors. As an added circumstance, I cast Prestidigitation of smoke, both to make the fire appear worse than it is and cover our leaving the stables. The plan worked. No one saw us leave the stables nor enter the fortress. The bad guys never knew we were there until it was time to strike.

That was AWESOME!That seems to me like abusing Illusion spells. Using (assumingly) an Image spell to duplicate the effects of a Mass Invisibility? The Ghost Sound water effects seems solid enough, but if I was your DM, I'd never ever allow you to use an Image spell as Invisibility+.

[supermonkeyjoe]

Arrange with your party beforehand and tell him what you're going to do (this should either get them a will save immediately or an auto-success depending on your DM)

During battle cast an illusionary wall of iron/stone/other opaque material in between your foe and your ally. Until the enemies pass their will save your allies have total concealment (50% miss chance) against enemies and can't be targeted and are immune to AoOs while concealed, if your allies make their save then they can attack the enemies with no penalty.

Assuming the enemies don't make their save immediately then you can make a hide check and sneak attack if you're a rogue.

Not bad for a 1st level spell

[Slipperychicken]

I cast Silent Image on the path we are walking near the skeletons of that same path but empty to hide our approach.



Silent Image
This spell creates the visual illusion of an object, creature, or force, as visualized by you. The illusion does not create sound, smell, texture, or temperature. You can move the image within the limits of the size of the effect.

Can't make terrain with Silent Image. Which seems fair to me, it's a level 1 spell after all.

[Snowbluff]

I personally love the fake bridge over a river, or even a huge ravine for that matter! Its a classic but ah its fun :smallsmile:

When people start to suspect your birdges through trial and error, move the edge of the chasm/ravine/canyon over a little so when they try to interact with the bridge to test its reality they fall.

[GodGoblin]

When people start to suspect your birdges through trial and error, move the edge of the chasm/ravine/canyon over a little so when they try to interact with the bridge to test its reality they fall.

Thats... Beautiful!

[MesiDoomstalker]

Thats... Beautiful!

The greatest plans are the simplest. Minor alterations to a prexisting plan that worked in the past but the enemies have caught on to is perfect. If your opponents expect you to do something one way, do it but alter it in the slightest way that no one sees it coming.

As a great Half-Orc once said:

:thog: Thog elegant in Thog's simplicity.

[Snowbluff]

Thats... Beautiful!

Thanks! Can I sig this?


The greatest plans are the simplest. Minor alterations to a prexisting plan that worked in the past but the enemies have caught on to is perfect. If your opponents expect you to do something one way, do it but alter it in the slightest way that no one sees it coming.

As a great Half-Orc once said:

:thog: Thog elegant in Thog's simplicity.

Exactly! :smallbiggrin:

[navar100]

That seems to me like abusing Illusion spells. Using (assumingly) an Image spell to duplicate the effects of a Mass Invisibility? The Ghost Sound water effects seems solid enough, but if I was your DM, I'd never ever allow you to use an Image spell as Invisibility+.

Would you allow an illusory wall of stone? How about a wall of stone where the stone is colored blue? How about a wall of stone that is colored blue and white? How about a wall of stone colored green and brown? How about a wall of stone colored green, brown, and black that coincidentally mimics the scenery of a forest at night? How about a wall of stone colored green, brown, and black that coincidentally mimics the scenery of a forest at night that happens to be an actual place you are currently in?

Yeah, I'm glad you're not my DM either to squash player ingenuity.

[MesiDoomstalker]

Would you allow an illusory wall of stone? How about a wall of stone where the stone is colored blue? How about a wall of stone that is colored blue and white? How about a wall of stone colored green and brown? How about a wall of stone colored green, brown, and black that coincidentally mimics the scenery of a forest at night? How about a wall of stone colored green, brown, and black that coincidentally mimics the scenery of a forest at night that happens to be an actual place you are currently in?

Yeah, I'm glad you're not my DM either to squash player ingenuity.

I'd say that you'd need a craft or proffesion check to get that kind of detail out of the illusion. Though that is not RAW. But Shadowleaf is right, the example you used was beyond the power of the spell you used. In fact it is already a spell, Mass Invisibilty.

[killem2]

These variants (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/specialistWizardVariants.htm#illusionistVariants) are actually worth their weight, in my opinion, particularly the third one.



Illusion Mastery allows you to do some interesting things with Signature Spell (PGtF):


And, it synergizes very well with the Master Specialist's Focused Spellbook ability:


I'm slowly hammering out a build. The tenth level Master Specialist esoterica for illusion (free still/silent/eschew) is tempting, but it almost seems worthwhile to just stop at 7th for the moderate esoterica (concealment).

Is that illusion mastery from complete mage?



Yeah, I'm glad you're not my DM either to squash player ingenuity.

But that's not ingenuity, you are duplicating the same effect of a spell that isn't.

Tomato/Tamato here.

So you guys are on a bridge, and its an illusion make it seem like you are not. I suppose it can be done, but I would hope the dm, didn't use the save throwings vs an invisible target vs an illusion. I don't even know what spell you used those, you just said that's what happened.

[Greyfeld85]

That seems to me like abusing Illusion spells. Using (assumingly) an Image spell to duplicate the effects of a Mass Invisibility? The Ghost Sound water effects seems solid enough, but if I was your DM, I'd never ever allow you to use an Image spell as Invisibility+.

It has nothing to do with replicating higher level spells. The real problem is that he used a figment to produce a glamer.

I've used Silent Image to more or less produce the effects of Fog Cloud. Everybody that knows it's an illusion gets a +4 to their saving throw to disbelieve it (disbelieving an illusion makes it transparent, with an outline), and everybody that fails their save can't see more than five feet in front of their face.

The only real drawback to it is that without the Swift Concentration skill trick, you have to spend a standard action every round to keep it running.

[Fax Celestis]

Is that illusion mastery from complete mage?

Unearthed Arcana variant.

[killem2]

I wanted to be a bit more clear, in why i don't think the invisible bridge would work.

Really, the only illusion there is the air in front of the players. Air, by default is clear, and can be seen through. A wall, would make a screen. If you were just trying to make an illusion of an empty bridge, then, you'd have a bridge, that's empty, with three humanoid figures standing in the middle of the illusion.

I'm still new to the illusion business and dm business, but if you were to walk into your own illusion, it would alter it, would it not?



It has nothing to do with replicating higher level spells. The real problem is that he used a figment to produce a glamer.


Ahh, I see, is there a list of which spells fall under what?

[Greyfeld85]

Ahh, I see, is there a list of which spells fall under what?

Every spell will say what type of illusion it is in the spell description. But to get a rundown of exactly what each type of illusion does, you should check out the Illusion section on this page of the SRD. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm)

[killem2]

Every spell will say what type of illusion it is in the spell description. But to get a rundown of exactly what each type of illusion does, you should check out the Illusion section on this page of the SRD. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm)

Freaking awesome, thank you!

[Yttrium]

I'll alternate rounds in combat to summon creatures and illusionary images of creatures - give them lots of mobility traits (like a bird or something small) and then the baddies run the risk of losing track of which is real and which isn't.

Use illusions to create diagrams/training/planning tools - this can be useful if the DM suggests that you don't have proper materials for coordinating.

(Combine with other door/wall/hole illusions): If you can find yourself in a situation with preparation, create the illusions of the doors/walls in different places. Once combat starts, or whatever, stop concentrating and have the reality "change" in front of your foes. A convincing concentration act may do the double-trick of suspecting the original (illusionary) door/wall/hole was real, but is now covered up...

The idea, of course, being to swap up the expectation of pre- and post-illusion spell casting.

[Gamer Girl]

1.One I use a lot as a DM is the dramatic illusions. Things like glowing eyes, smoke coming out of the ears, sparkles around the person, and so on. Anything to make a person, place or object more interesting.

2.False Traps. Make anything glow, shimmer or shine and most folks will think it has some sort of magic trap on it. And they can waste a lot of time going around it or figuring out it's an illusion. Works even better when you mix real traps in too.

3.Fake Loot. Great for intelligent, greedy foes. Just make a bag of gold coins or some gems. You can delay them at least a round or two as they stop to try and grab the illusion. This also works to get foes to head down the wrong hallway. And works great to get foes to stand on an 'x' spot.

4.Sounds. A very over looked use of illusions. But making a nice 'sound of a stick breaking' can get a guard to be distracted. Animal sounds are great, such as making a dog barking to make a foe think your in that direction.

5.Smells. Another over looked use. You can make nice smells, like flowers or bad ones like rotten meat. An illusion of 'stale air' can make a place seem like it has been untouched for a while. The smell of burning wood, or cooking food and mislead a foe.

[Greyfeld85]

4.Sounds. A very over looked use of illusions. But making a nice 'sound of a stick breaking' can get a guard to be distracted. Animal sounds are great, such as making a dog barking to make a foe think your in that direction.

A while back, two party members and I stumbled into a room with a large carnivorous plant-like thing. We tried getting by it by sneaking quietly along the wall outside of its range, but the NPC that was with us botched its move silently check (it was a dwarf, go figure lol), and the creature turned on us.

Considering it didn't attack us when we entered the room, I figured it might only react to sound and not have an actual sight sense. So, I had my comrades run on ahead, and I turned back just for a second to throw a Ghost Sound spell down the hallway we'd just come from. Being level 7, the spell was pretty much maxed out, so I had it make the sound of a squad of armored men tromping down the hallway.

It distracted the creature long enough for us to get away without having to fight the thing.

[Heliomance]

Would you allow an illusory wall of stone? How about a wall of stone where the stone is colored blue? How about a wall of stone that is colored blue and white? How about a wall of stone colored green and brown? How about a wall of stone colored green, brown, and black that coincidentally mimics the scenery of a forest at night? How about a wall of stone colored green, brown, and black that coincidentally mimics the scenery of a forest at night that happens to be an actual place you are currently in?


I absolutely would allow you to do that. I'd then allow the guards a very easy spot check to realise that they're looking at a two dimensional painting, not a three dimensional landscape.

[Greyfeld85]

I absolutely would allow you to do that. I'd then allow the guards a very easy spot check to realise that they're looking at a two dimensional painting, not a three dimensional landscape.

As a 1st level spell, Silent Image already has a lower DC than Illusory Wall, which is a 4th level spell. In addition, Illusory Wall is permanent, while Silent Image only lasts as long as you concentrate on the spell. Creating a fake wall is clearly within the limits of the Silent Image spell, even if it essentially replicates the effect of another spell. The drawback of using Silent Image is already built directly into the game without trying to invent new ways to screw over the player for being imaginative.

[Heliomance]

As a 1st level spell, Silent Image already has a lower DC than Illusory Wall, which is a 4th level spell. In addition, Illusory Wall is permanent, while Silent Image only lasts as long as you concentrate on the spell. Creating a fake wall is clearly within the limits of the Silent Image spell, even if it essentially replicates the effect of another spell. The drawback of using Silent Image is already built directly into the game without trying to invent new ways to screw over the player for being imaginative.

You're right, creating a fake wall is clearly within the limits of Silent Image. Making that wall flawlessly appear to be a three dimensional landscape, however, is not. You can make a wall with it, you can put whatever pretty colours on it you like, but it will still be a wall, and not a landscape.

[Greyfeld85]

You're right, creating a fake wall is clearly within the limits of Silent Image. Making that wall flawlessly appear to be a three dimensional landscape, however, is not. You can make a wall with it, you can put whatever pretty colours on it you like, but it will still be a wall, and not a landscape.

lol I suppose it would help if I read the entire post :P Yeah, that would probably be something like a DC 10 spot check to realize that the image "doesn't look right." Or maybe a Profession: Painter check to set the DC.

[GodGoblin]

Thanks! Can I sig this?

Sure! After reading all this I really want to try an illusionist now... May throw some NPCs/Ememies into the game im DMing to test it out :smalltongue:

[some guy]

I once made a dungeon room sequence like this:

Room 1: bridge over pit with water
Room 2: pit with water
Room 3: invisible bridge over lava pit
Room 4: Lava pit
Room 5: lava pit, illusion to make it look like water (temperature stays the same)
Room 6: water pit, with a illusion over it to make it look like lava
Room 7: water pit, with a redundant water illusion over it
Room 8: acid pit, with a water illusion over it

[Lonely Tylenol]

The most devious illusion (or series of illusions, rather) that I ever crafted was a small room with a switch or button in the middle. The room was programmed such that when the party entered the room, the stone doors shut behind them, and a Magic Mouth began counting down from 30 [seconds] in a loud, booming voice. From there, the room began to undergo a series of changes from Programmed Images responding to the countdown such that they begin when the countdown begins and end when the countdown reaches zero (but run indefinitely until this span of time is reached), with increasing severity, beginning with things like smoke filling the room and swarms of bugs crawling out of the cracks, and building up to flaming tar searing and melting their flesh while greater devils tear at them with barbed whips and the aforementioned bugs (which may or may not be on fire) attempt to crawl into their mouths, nostrils and open wounds to escape the burning room, and beyond.

The switch was affected by a Sympathy spell (or some similar spell from some splatbook... I can't exactly recall), and pressing it reset the countdown, which meant that the increasingly torturous Programmed Images played for longer.

I built it as an Illusion-themed room, so I may very well have left the compulsion off the switch, but something like Sympathy just makes it that much more devious.

My only full caster eschewed Illusion magic, but a favorite tactic (particularly in the lower levels) was to cast Ventriloquism on dumber NPCs and enemies. Once, while being "escorted" by DeM by two big, dumb thugs who were holding my arms in place (thus making casting spells with somatic components difficult), I cast Ventriloquism on Big, Dumb Thug #1, mimicking his voice to insult Big, Dumb Thug #2, saying that he was ugly, putrid-smelling, gaseous, and slow, all qualities that made him oddly reminiscent of his mother (though not in such a verbose manner). Big, Dumb Thug #2, who it turns out was Big, Dumb Thug #1's brother, let go of me and began beating the crap out of Big, Dumb Thug #1, who was also forced to let go of me. I escaped in the chaos, but not before Greasing my exit route behind me.

[jpreem]

Not my original idea read it somewhere in these fora.
You create illusions of summoning ethereal/immaterial monsters. Then you also summon ethereal/immaterial etc. monsters.
Guys fighting your illusions don't get a will save - if you make them react accordingly. (And for a ghost/shade etc. it is going to be easy to just let their hits whiff through them).
So your opponents really don't are they fighting illusions or real monsters.

[navar100]

Interesting how if an NPC casts an illusion, it works perfectly. When a player wants to disbelieve, the DM is offended and demands the player give a reason why he wants to disbelieve or else tough noogies. When a PC casts an illusion, NPCs immediately suspect and get a chance to disbelieve or otherwise see through the illusion.

I don't accept such a philosophy. If it bothers you so much that I was able to use two Silent Images, Ghost Sound, and Prestidigitation to get the party into a mountain fortress undetected, tough noogies to you.

[killem2]

Interesting how if an NPC casts an illusion, it works perfectly. When a player wants to disbelieve, the DM is offended and demands the player give a reason why he wants to disbelieve or else tough noogies. When a PC casts an illusion, NPCs immediately suspect and get a chance to disbelieve or otherwise see through the illusion.

I don't accept such a philosophy. If it bothers you so much that I was able to use two Silent Images, Ghost Sound, and Prestidigitation to get the party into a mountain fortress undetected, tough noogies to you.

I believe it was explained quite well, why silent image wouldn't work.

If you want to use the appropriate illusion spell, then you could. I think you might be the one with the tough noogies.

I'll admit I was reading it all wrong, it was the type of illusion that is the problem, not that your idea was wrong. Basically you made silent image make and illusion that IT CAN'T make.

[Heliomance]

Interesting how if an NPC casts an illusion, it works perfectly. When a player wants to disbelieve, the DM is offended and demands the player give a reason why he wants to disbelieve or else tough noogies. When a PC casts an illusion, NPCs immediately suspect and get a chance to disbelieve or otherwise see through the illusion.

Actually, deciding you disbelieve an illusion doesn't work. You only get to make a save against it if you interact with it, you receive incontrovertible proof that it's not real (like someone walking straight through it, or perspective screwups) or (I think) someone that's already saved against it points it out to you. You can't just declare that you disbelieve it, and that goes for NPCs as well.

That aside, Silent Image can't do that. It's not within the purview of the spell to hide things unless it's hiding them behind opaque objects. So either you put a wall in front of you coloured to look like the background - which is very easy to notice that something's wrong, as the perspective won't change as you move about - or you cast an illusion of the landscape over the landscape and you're still perfectly visible walking across the illusion because there's nothing in the way.

[Greyfeld85]

Actually, deciding you disbelieve an illusion doesn't work. You only get to make a save against it if you interact with it, you receive incontrovertible proof that it's not real (like someone walking straight through it, or perspective screwups) or (I think) someone that's already saved against it points it out to you. You can't just declare that you disbelieve it, and that goes for NPCs as well.

That aside, Silent Image can't do that. It's not within the purview of the spell to hide things unless it's hiding them behind opaque objects. So either you put a wall in front of you coloured to look like the background - which is very easy to notice that something's wrong, as the perspective won't change as you move about - or you cast an illusion of the landscape over the landscape and you're still perfectly visible walking across the illusion because there's nothing in the way.

If somebody tells you it's an illusion, but you haven't seen proof of it yet, you get a +4 to your save to disbelieve the illusion.

[Greyfeld85]

Interesting how if an NPC casts an illusion, it works perfectly. When a player wants to disbelieve, the DM is offended and demands the player give a reason why he wants to disbelieve or else tough noogies. When a PC casts an illusion, NPCs immediately suspect and get a chance to disbelieve or otherwise see through the illusion.

I don't accept such a philosophy. If it bothers you so much that I was able to use two Silent Images, Ghost Sound, and Prestidigitation to get the party into a mountain fortress undetected, tough noogies to you.

If your DM is screwing you on saving throws, that's a problem you need to discuss with your DM. However, that doesn't change the fact that you used a Figment to produce a Glamer, which violates the rules.

[Slipperychicken]

If it bothers you so much that I was able to use two Silent Images, Ghost Sound, and Prestidigitation break the rules without my DM noticing/caring to get the party into a mountain fortress undetected, tough noogies to you.

The issue is not envy, but that the combo doesn't work by RAW. Personally, I bother my DM when he makes on-the-spot houserules that don't make sense, especially when he knows the actual rules (Like Combat Reflexes giving DEX+1 attacks every time an enemy provokes AoO, and enemies "cutting through" a Web to get out in less than a round).

[bloodtide]

I believe it was explained quite well, why silent image wouldn't work.

If you want to use the appropriate illusion spell, then you could. I think you might be the one with the tough noogies.

I'll admit I was reading it all wrong, it was the type of illusion that is the problem, not that your idea was wrong. Basically you made silent image make and illusion that IT CAN'T make.

The weird thing about illusions is that so many people take the effects so far. D&D is a nice simple scaled game, the higher the level, the more powerful on effect is. And every thing of the same level should be roughly the same power.

Yet, time and time again, you see people doing the crazy stuff with just silent image or other low level illusion spells. And not clever stuff, just crazy rule breaking stuff.

These players would have loved 2E. In the good old days you could kill anything with silent image. It was an illusionists dream. You could make an illusion of a mile deep pit and make them think they fell in it, and if they failed there save....they died. You could make them choke to death on illusionary smoke, burn them with illusionary fire and so on...and it was all real damage(in there mind, but they would still die for real).

[Heliomance]

If somebody tells you it's an illusion, but you haven't seen proof of it yet, you get a +4 to your save to disbelieve the illusion.

I know you get +4 to the save, but is someone telling you it's an illusion enough to give you a save in the first place if you haven't interacted with it? When you get to make the save, you get +4 if you've been told, but I'm not certain it automatically qualifies you to make the save by itself.

[Krotchrot]

I know you get +4 to the save, but is someone telling you it's an illusion enough to give you a save in the first place if you haven't interacted with it? When you get to make the save, you get +4 if you've been told, but I'm not certain it automatically qualifies you to make the save by itself.

True, I tend to take the route, that if someone told me, I still make certain to interact with it just to make sure. Also if pointed out, and said creature or item doesn't take damage from my Adamantine Hammer, then I know its not real, there's a reason I play a stubborn dwarf.

[Randomguy]

A fun tactic for a mischevious character is to insult the big bad when the battle starts. He says something like "Just for that, you die first." You cast Veil on everyone in the room to make them look exactly like you, and and then start casting more illusions of yourself or teleportation spells to make people switch places. Bonus points if you cast that spell that lets you swap places with someone else while putting up an illusion to make you look like each other first, so you don't even look like a target anymore.

[The Underlord]

Once, in a low level pbp, to get rid of the orcs attacking, my gnome illusionist conjured up an image of gruumush, the orc god,(silent image) and next round used ghost sound to tell them to go awa(it did freak everybody out though, and my ally tried to attack it). A first and 0th level spell solved a fifth level encounter easily so Illusions can be pretty powerful.

[Chronos]

Another use for Silent Image: Put opaque black orbs around the heads of all your enemies, effectively blinding them. It falls short of Cause Blindness, since the save's easier and it only lasts as long as you keep concentrating, but it's still a pretty nice trick for a 1st-level spell.

And of course, you can always go for style at the same time. Picture it:

The wizard mumbles a few incomprehensible words and makes an arcane gesture, and a rift opens above you. Through it, you can see a panoply of eldritch shapes. Some of them, looking vaguely like octopuses and vaguely like frogs, come through, eerily silently. One by one, the unspeakable creatures engulf the heads of your friends, and then you. All is blackness.

Yeah, still just Silent Image, still producing the blinding effect, but a lot more... interesting... than just black globes.

[Pigkappa]

A nasty DM dealing with unexperienced players can make whatever he wants with illusions. The poor party I'm DMing for now is convinced that the local Sorcerer, who is just 1 level above them (and Venerable; he's got like 6 Con and no desire to be in danger), is extremely powerful because of the mysterious black sphere (which he casts as a defensive spell) they couldn't find in the book, which is no more than Silent Image. I'm not allowing them to roll a Will save before they try to touch it or at least study it closely, of course.

[bloodtide]

Another use for Silent Image: Put opaque black orbs around the heads of all your enemies, effectively blinding them. It falls short of Cause Blindness, since the save's easier and it only lasts as long as you keep concentrating, but it's still a pretty nice trick for a 1st-level spell.


Guess this proves my above point. Does anyone really think that Silent Image can be used as a Mass Blindness effect? Or even a blindness effect? And if you do say it can blind foes, how many can to effect...everyone within the area of effect? That sounds right...a first level spell that can blind a whole army.

[Demons_eye]

Guess this proves my above point. Does anyone really think that Silent Image can be used as a Mass Blindness effect? Or even a blindness effect? And if you do say it can blind foes, how many can to effect...everyone within the area of effect? That sounds right...a first level spell that can blind a whole army.

It wouldn't work because when presented with incontrovertible proof that the illusion isn't real its vanish. This would include reaching for your head right through the orb to feel whats blocking your vision.

[Menteith]

It wouldn't work because when presented with incontrovertible proof that the illusion isn't real its vanish. This would include reaching for your head right through the orb to feel whats blocking your vision.

Unless you've taken the Chains of Disbelief AcF.

[Demons_eye]

Unless you've taken the Chains of Disbelief AcF.

In which they get a +10 bonus to will save. Assuming that you pump DC

10 + 1 (Level of spell) + 5 (Int score bonus) + 2 (Greater Spell Focus) = 18 for a Grey Elf with Flaws at level 1.

Vs a save of +10 on anyone, +12 for Good will save class, + 15 for wisdom based class with good will save.

Edit: Six out of the 11 core class have good will saves and three of those need wisdom (Cleric, Druid, Monk)

Edit:Edit: Looking into races Dwarfs get +2 to saving throws on spells, Gnomes +2 vs illusions, and Halflings get +1.

Maxing Will save: Dwarf Cleric with protection and luck domain. +2 (Base) + 2 (Dwarf) + 4 (Wis) + 2 (Iron Will) + 1 (Resistance Protection Domain). Reroll if its a one. +10 basic meaning (+11 for one saving throw) +20 (+21) if shown incontrovertible proof such as passing your hand through an orb.

[Randomguy]

What if you make the illusion look like a spell effect rather than a black orb that's supposed to be solid? Also, if the orb isn't hollow, then they wouldn't be able to see their own hands passing through it, and wouldn't have any real reason to think it's an illusion rather than a darkness spell or similar. Would that work?

[Taelas]

Guess this proves my above point. Does anyone really think that Silent Image can be used as a Mass Blindness effect? Or even a blindness effect? And if you do say it can blind foes, how many can to effect...everyone within the area of effect? That sounds right...a first level spell that can blind a whole army.

Yes, it works. It fits all the parameters of a figment, and as long as the total area covered isn't exceeding the limits of the spell, you can blind an army.

Keep in mind that the area it affects is relatively small: 4 10-foot cubes + 1 10-foot cube per level. If they are marching within 5 feet of each other, that's a maximum of 20 soldiers at 1st level. If you spread the illusion as far as you could, you could create 5 different 10-foot cubes within a 440-yard radius, but not more. (For instance, if you had a line of 20 people (covering 20 squares), you would only be able to affect 10 of them (and half your illusion would affect the area next to those 10 people), despite the fact that the total area of your spell covers the necessary total number of squares.

If the people involved are not aware of the existence of darkness spells, they would count as "interacting" with the illusion as soon as they touched it and get a chance to disbelieve. If they are aware of such magic, they would be entitled to make a Spellcraft check to determine that the silent image isn't that particular spell, as you cannot duplicate it with silent image.

This was asked earlier, but anyone who has been informed that something is an illusion automatically gets a saving throw with a +4 bonus.

[Fax Celestis]

It wouldn't work because when presented with incontrovertible proof that the illusion isn't real its vanish. This would include reaching for your head right through the orb to feel whats blocking your vision.


Unless you've taken the Chains of Disbelief AcF.


In which they get a +10 bonus to will save.

No, they get a +4, not a +10.


Saving Throws and Illusions (Disbelief)

Creatures encountering an illusion usually do not receive saving throws to recognize it as illusory until they study it carefully or interact with it in some fashion.

A successful saving throw against an illusion reveals it to be false, but a figment or phantasm remains as a translucent outline.

A failed saving throw indicates that a character fails to notice something is amiss. A character faced with proof that an illusion isn’t real needs no saving throw. If any viewer successfully disbelieves an illusion and communicates this fact to others, each such viewer gains a saving throw with a +4 bonus.

And if you take Chains of Disbelief...


Chains of Disbelief (Ex)

Even if a viewer disbelieves an illusion created by an illusionist using this variant and communicates the details of the illusion to other creatures, those other creatures do not receive the normal +4 bonus on their saying throws to disbelieve the illusion. Furthermore, even when presented with incontrovertible proof that the illusion isn't real, creatures must still succeed on a Will saving throw to see objects or creatures that the illusion obscures, although they get a +10 bonus on the saving throw.

An illusionist using this variant permanently gives up the ability to obtain a familiar.

In a world where you can be blinded by a single word (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/powerWordBlind.htm), suddenly losing your sight is not "incontrovertible proof" that there's an illusion affecting you.

[jpreem]

It wouldn't work because when presented with incontrovertible proof that the illusion isn't real its vanish. This would include reaching for your head right through the orb to feel whats blocking your vision.

I'd prefer that the rift opens and several spheres of dense mist float out of there. When they engulf you you cant see more than a few inches of swirling mist. If you put your hand through the mist - well it is something you can do to dense mist anyway. No bonuses to will save there.

[Demons_eye]

What if you make the illusion look like a spell effect rather than a black orb that's supposed to be solid? Also, if the orb isn't hollow, then they wouldn't be able to see their own hands passing through it, and wouldn't have any real reason to think it's an illusion rather than a darkness spell or similar. Would that work?

They would have to know what a darkness spell is before hand and those that do might have spellcraft and notice its an illusion.



No, they get a +4, not a +10.



And if you take Chains of Disbelief...



In a world where you can be blinded by a single word (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/powerWordBlind.htm), suddenly losing your sight is not "incontrovertible proof" that there's an illusion affecting you.

Losing your sight and an orb, or other things suddenly engulfing your head are two different things. Passing your hand through an orb or creature that engulfing your head is really good proof that its not there. If you make it mist why does it not feel wet? Silent Image just doesn't convey enough senses to make it believable.

Also if you go down the road that magic does it so they don't get the bonus I say bull. Normal people, non magical trained, will not know of the spell's you talk about and those trained might have spell craft and notice its an illusion spell.

Last but not least you have to move it if the character moves. Hell If they wanted to drop prone or even crouch I would say they get out of the orb.


I'd prefer that the rift opens and several spheres of dense mist float out of there. When they engulf you you cant see more than a few inches of swirling mist. If you put your hand through the mist - well it is something you can do to dense mist anyway. No bonuses to will save there.

Unless you pass through dense mist and feel no wetness or cold. We get a lot of that here and it fun to play in but running through leaves you soaked. If you say the mist isn't dense how it is blocking vision? Again silent image doesn't convey enough senses to be believable.

[Chronos]

Normal people might not know the details of spells, but surely everyone would know that wizards can make darkness or thick fog. I mean, magic doesn't even exist in our world, and most people in our world would still expect a wizard to be able to do those things.

[Menteith]

If you create any opaque, insubstantial object that doesn't allow for sensory input, it should block all vision without a chance to save. Silent Image doesn't create sound, smell, texture, or temperature - but if the object your replicating wouldn't normally make noise/smells and can't be touched, then there's no way to tell its an illusion.

[Talionis]

I think the best way to handle low level spells duplicating effects from high level spells, if the DM wants to reward ingenuity and allow it, is to greatly diminish the effect and make it easier to overcome the lower level spell than the higher level spell.

Things like Illusionary Darkness, they think it is that's blinding them. They are really interacting with it since it is touching them. So they immediately get the save. After a couple of them get out and say its only an illusion they get another save with a bonus.

If you are using illusions to fake invisibility, I think most things might notice something is off if leaves don't blow in the wind for example. I wouldn't say you couldn't try it. But I would allow rolls to see if any of the creatures notice.

There is a middle ground that can make those kinds of uses risky, but still reward ingenuity or give you some chance if you really desperate.

[killem2]

What would happen if you cast a real Pristmatic Wall, then used major or silent image to create an illusionary Pristmatic Wall in front of it?

[MesiDoomstalker]

What would happen if you cast a real Pristmatic Wall, then used major or silent image to create an illusionary Pristmatic Wall in front of it?

Nothing? Besides making opponents think they had to go through 2 walls to get to you, nothing at all.

[killem2]

But, one could, create three walls before the prismatic one, and possibly fool the enemy into thinking, ok enough of this crap, I'm going in?

I guess I wonder at what point does an enemy (with in the rules of the game) just decide, ok this is stupid, I KNOW these are just going to keep being fake, and then BAM real one.

[MesiDoomstalker]

But, one could, create three walls before the prismatic one, and possibly fool the enemy into thinking, ok enough of this crap, I'm going in?

I guess I wonder at what point does an enemy (with in the rules of the game) just decide, ok this is stupid, I KNOW these are just going to keep being fake, and then BAM real one.

Nothing in the rules will say if or when they will say "screw it". That be up to the DM or the player in question.

EDIT to avoid double post: With the image line of spells where you must maintain concentration, can you change the illusion every turn? Can you make an illusion of a tree (and stand inside said illusion hopefully disbelieving it) and then later change the illusion to a burning tree? What abou a rock? Into a halfling? I guess what, if any, restrictions on altering an illusion without casting a new spell? This doesn't apply for spells that don't have concentration obviously.

[Chronos]

Silent Image does certainly allow the thing you're illusing appear to move around, and I have a hard time coming up with an argument that things can move but not change otherwise.

On the other hand, a tree whose leaves blow in the wind will make an illusion more convincing, but a tree that suddenly turns into a rock will at least alert anyone watching that something magical is going on. So it might be counterproductive.

And even if your wall-with-a-landscape painted on it moves around, it's still not going to look like the actual terrain. At least, unless you're a coyote chasing a roadrunner through the desert.

[MesiDoomstalker]

Silent Image does certainly allow the thing you're illusing appear to move around, and I have a hard time coming up with an argument that things can move but not change otherwise.

On the other hand, a tree whose leaves blow in the wind will make an illusion more convincing, but a tree that suddenly turns into a rock will at least alert anyone watching that something magical is going on. So it might be counterproductive.

And even if your wall-with-a-landscape painted on it moves around, it's still not going to look like the actual terrain. At least, unless you're a coyote chasing a roadrunner through the desert.

Slight alteration to the hypothetical: Tree that you hide in. An enemy interacts with said tree and makes its save and thus disbelieves. Could I fake casting and create say a Celestial Monkey illusions? Or would the Celestial Monkies be auto-disbelieved by the enemy that made its save against the tree? Or for that matter as long as no one notices the change in the illusion, it is still possible to change it radically beyond "normal for whatever you create."

[Shadowleaf]

Slight alteration to the hypothetical: Tree that you hide in. An enemy interacts with said tree and makes its save and thus disbelieves. Could I fake casting and create say a Celestial Monkey illusions? Or would the Celestial Monkies be auto-disbelieved by the enemy that made its save against the tree? Or for that matter as long as no one notices the change in the illusion, it is still possible to change it radically beyond "normal for whatever you create."One spell, one illusion, one save. If you actually cast another illusion spell to create the monkies, then they'd have to save vs them seperately.

[jpreem]

Unless you pass through dense mist and feel no wetness or cold. We get a lot of that here and it fun to play in but running through leaves you soaked. If you say the mist isn't dense how it is blocking vision?.

It is obviously magical mist/smoke/dust/shadowcreature/whatever - duh!
Why does a swirling ball of mist conjured from a extradimensional rift specifically be moist, or smell like smoke or whatever? All you know it is a swirling ball of opaque misty stuff from beyond there.

[Menteith]

It is obviously magical mist/smoke/dust/shadowcreature/whatever - duh!
Why does a swirling ball of mist conjured from a extradimensional rift specifically be moist, or smell like smoke or whatever? All you know it is a swirling ball of opaque misty stuff from beyond there.

Using Wall of Gloom as a reference point (Spell Compendium)

You create a barrier of ominous shadow
that obscures vision and blocks line of
sight, including darkvision. The wall is
insubstantial, so creatures can move
through it without penalty.

You should have no problems "duplicating" Wall of Gloom's effect, and are capable of shaping it significantly more if you use Silent Image. Also, you can communicate (using a code word/phrase) to your allies that the wall is Illusionary (they either auto-disbelieve or get a save at +4 on a level 1 spell...if they can't make it you have bigger problems), which allows all of you to act as though the Silent Image isn't there (Aiming Spells through it, making charges on targets in it, etc). Everyone on your team inside of it has total concealment to all forms of sight, and has no problems acting in it.

[Darth_Versity]

This thread is great. It's giving me loads of ideas of what to do with my beguiler. The most inventive thing I've done is make an illusion of myself on the battlefield while i sneak around the edges invisible.

[killem2]

Ok, so, is this allowed by Silent Image?

Lets say there are two gaurd dogs. I cast Silent Image, and declare I put a 20ftx20ftx20ft cage around the two dogs, and a couple cats jumping around like crazy in the cage.

How many times will the dogs need to make saving throws? Each turn? Each time they bump into the sides?

What if there were no cats, just the cage, do they just keep sitting there barking or do they scratch at it? Does it actually hold them if they pounce at the bars?

[Menteith]

Ok, so, is this allowed by Silent Image?

Lets say there are two gaurd dogs. I cast Silent Image, and declare I put a 20ftx20ftx20ft cage around the two dogs, and a couple cats jumping around like crazy in the cage.

How many times will the dogs need to make saving throws? Each turn? Each time they bump into the sides?

What if there were no cats, just the cage, do they just keep sitting there barking or do they scratch at it? Does it actually hold them if they pounce at the bars?

"This spell creates the visual illusion of an object, creature, or force, as visualized by you. The illusion does not create sound, smell, texture, or temperature. You can move the image within the limits of the size of the effect. "

You can create the cage, but you can't create any cats inside of it, as you can only make one object, creature, or force. If you legally could do this, the dogs would get a save immediately due to Scent/Sound being off, and would automatically disbelieve the illusion if they touched any part of it. If you just create a cage, they're probably going to try and get out of it if they're trained guard dogs. As soon as they touch it, they automatically disbelieve it. It will never hold them, belief or no, if they pounce at the bars. They wouldn't get a save against the illusion unless they took a standard action to observe the cage - there are likely going to be minor issues with the realism of a cage (wind flow not disrupted, no apparent weight, no disturbance of the dirt it's resting on).

[erikun]

Ok, so, is this allowed by Silent Image?

Lets say there are two gaurd dogs. I cast Silent Image, and declare I put a 20ftx20ftx20ft cage around the two dogs, and a couple cats jumping around like crazy in the cage.

How many times will the dogs need to make saving throws? Each turn? Each time they bump into the sides?

What if there were no cats, just the cage, do they just keep sitting there barking or do they scratch at it? Does it actually hold them if they pounce at the bars?
They would get a saving throw every round they interact with it, at least. It's been awhile since I've read up on the rules and actions on interaction.

Needless to say, every time they are interacting with it - in this case, biting at the bars or getting jumped on by the cats - they would get a saving throw to disbelieve. Unless the illusionist has some special ability that only allows one save, they can keep rolling until they make it or the spell ends.

Also, as Menteith pointed out, they would automatically disbelieve if something obvious happens - if one dog gets shoved through the bars by another, or if they leap and pass right through it.

[killem2]

So at that point, it might be best to just envision a wall, and if they fail the saving throw they might try and go around it, so the best I could do is slow their advance down.

[Namfuak]

If you wanted to create a concealment around a creature, why not create an illusion of a polarized wall, so that even if they see through it, seeing the edges (which would mean all the bars on it that are small to do the polarizing) would not leave them with sight through it? That would mean your allies presumably would not be able to see through it either, but it would be an effective form of crowd control. Alternatively, since you know where the enemy is, the PCs could just swing their sword through the illusion.

EDIT: Rereading the description of a disbelieved illusion, what may be better would be a wall of thousands of interlacing layers of thin black lines, so that even though each would be individually translucent, the density of the individual translucent images would not allow light through.

[Toliudar]

EDIT: Rereading the description of a disbelieved illusion, what may be better would be a wall of thousands of interlacing layers of thin black lines, so that even though each would be individually translucent, the density of the individual translucent images would not allow light through.

Math answer: You're assuming that outlines of images would have width. This is not a given if they are effectively 2-dimensional constructs.

DM answer: I get to decide what aspects of the image remain outlined when a save is made. If the relevant elements are the outside edges of the wall, that's what's outlined. Then I chuck a book at your head.

[Menteith]

Math answer: You're assuming that outlines of images would have width. This is not a given if they are effectively 2-dimensional constructs.

DM answer: I get to decide what aspects of the image remain outlined when a save is made. If the relevant elements are the outside edges of the wall, that's what's outlined. Then I chuck a book at your head.

Also, that doesn't sound like a continuous object. I suppose you could claim that it's a single tightly wound thread that occupies 40' ft^2, but you're not going to get that by any sane DM. Don't apply any of the physical sciences to D&D; think of the catgirls.

[killem2]

After weighing the options very hard, seeing as how I am the DM and this is my mage, there are just too many calls that are made by the DM when it comes to the limits of illusions and the reactions of the creatures having to save, that I think it'll be best to just go a different route.

I know this is not what this thread was about, but it opened my eyes. :)

[bloodtide]

Ok, so, is this allowed by Silent Image?

Lets say there are two gaurd dogs. I cast Silent Image, and declare I put a 20ftx20ftx20ft cage around the two dogs, and a couple cats jumping around like crazy in the cage.

How many times will the dogs need to make saving throws? Each turn? Each time they bump into the sides?

What if there were no cats, just the cage, do they just keep sitting there barking or do they scratch at it? Does it actually hold them if they pounce at the bars?

This would 'work' as in you could make an illusion of a cage around two dogs, but it won't be very effective. By the rules the dogs get a save to ignore the cage, of course.

But even more so, dogs don't know what a 'cage' is. Anything that is not solid the dog will simply walk through. Even if the dog 'thought' it was in a cage, it would immediately run at and bark at an intruder if it was a watch type dog and 'forget' about the cage.

Illusions use the foes intelligence against them, the smarter the foe the better an illusion works. For example dogs would ignore a illusion of a bag that said 'poison'(as they can't read), but it would stop a human.

Things like cages only work against intelligent foes who will 'think' they are trapped and not try and escape. For the dogs, something like a running cat would be better.

[bloodtide]

Ok, so, is this allowed by Silent Image?

Lets say there are two gaurd dogs. I cast Silent Image, and declare I put a 20ftx20ftx20ft cage around the two dogs, and a couple cats jumping around like crazy in the cage.

How many times will the dogs need to make saving throws? Each turn? Each time they bump into the sides?

What if there were no cats, just the cage, do they just keep sitting there barking or do they scratch at it? Does it actually hold them if they pounce at the bars?

This would 'work' as in you could make an illusion of a cage around two dogs, but it won't be very effective. By the rules the dogs get a save to ignore the cage, of course.

But even more so, dogs don't know what a 'cage' is. Anything that is not solid the dog will simply walk through. Even if the dog 'thought' it was in a cage, it would immediately run at and bark at an intruder if it was a watch type dog and 'forget' about the cage.

Illusions use the foes intelligence against them, the smarter the foe the better an illusion works. For example dogs would ignore a illusion of a bag that said 'poison'(as they can't read), but it would stop a human.

Things like cages only work against intelligent foes who will 'think' they are trapped and not try and escape. For the dogs, something like a running cat would be better.

[Menteith]

After weighing the options very hard, seeing as how I am the DM and this is my mage, there are just too many calls that are made by the DM when it comes to the limits of illusions and the reactions of the creatures having to save, that I think it'll be best to just go a different route.

I know this is not what this thread was about, but it opened my eyes. :)

That's probably a good call. It's a subjective area, and the more leeway an Illusionist gets the more powerful they are. If you're allowed to create a Silent Image spell that doesn't allow for a save (as I talked about earlier) you've effectively replicated the effect of a Sculted Fog Cloud, that's mobile so you can keep people blind, and that you and your party can see through without any problem, all at the cost of a level one spell. What calls for a Save is also a pretty gray area, and can make or break an Illusionist.

[Taelas]

This would 'work' as in you could make an illusion of a cage around two dogs, but it won't be very effective. By the rules the dogs get a save to ignore the cage, of course.

But even more so, dogs don't know what a 'cage' is. Anything that is not solid the dog will simply walk through. Even if the dog 'thought' it was in a cage, it would immediately run at and bark at an intruder if it was a watch type dog and 'forget' about the cage.

Illusions use the foes intelligence against them, the smarter the foe the better an illusion works. For example dogs would ignore a illusion of a bag that said 'poison'(as they can't read), but it would stop a human.

Things like cages only work against intelligent foes who will 'think' they are trapped and not try and escape. For the dogs, something like a running cat would be better.

:smallconfused:

No.

Anything with animal-level intelligence would see a cage, and would stop before crashing into it (assuming they see it in time and can slow down); the idea of obstacles is not something that is foreign to dogs or other animals. Do you often see dogs running headlong into walls as if they aren't there? They would then probably test them, but they would stop first. And they might still not go through, even after testing them, because they fail to understand that they aren't there.

An illusion works better against creatures that understand what the illusion is supposed to represent, but fail to recognize the inconsistencies involved. The smarter they are, the more likely they are to notice the problems.

[Namfuak]

Math answer: You're assuming that outlines of images would have width. This is not a given if they are effectively 2-dimensional constructs.

DM answer: I get to decide what aspects of the image remain outlined when a save is made. If the relevant elements are the outside edges of the wall, that's what's outlined. Then I chuck a book at your head.

What if I just made an illusory black hole? By definition, light can't go through it.:smallcool:

[Bloodgruve]

If you create an illusion of a creature/person and if the target fails its saving throw can you use the illusion to flank the target?

What are some ways to maintain an image without having to concentrate, like Sonorus Hum?

Great thread.

TY

Blood~

[Menteith]

If you create an illusion of a creature/person and if the target fails its saving throw can you use the illusion to flank the target?

Subjective call. RAW, no - Silent Image never says you can use it to flank the target, and on top of that, there's already an illusion spell (Phantom Threat, from the Spell Compendium) that causes the target to act is it was threatened at all times due to an illusion. However, it's subject to DM ruling. I'd personally allow it with the target getting a Disbelief save every round with an increasing bonus to disbelieve. When you're threatening a square, you're interacting with those around you, ducking and dodging and warding off people with a weapon. That's interaction right there, and every round that it doesn't hit you or really react as you'd expect would make it see weirder.



What are some ways to maintain an image without having to concentrate, like Sonorus Hum?

Extraordinary Concentration from Complete Adventurer is the easiest option. If you're paranoid about it, you can burn another feat on Steady Concentration from Races of Stone to always take 10 on Concentration checks, and pick up +26 to Concentration to always do it as a Swift Action.
Extraordinary Concentration
prerequisite: Concentration 15 ranks

Benefit: When concentrating to maintain a spell, you can make a Concentration check (DC 25 + spell level) to maintain concentration with just a move action. If you beat the DC by 10 or more, you can maintain concentration on the spell as a swift action (see Swift Actions and Immediate Actions, page 137). Using this ability is a free action, but if you fail the Concentration check, you lose concentration on the maintained spell and its effect ends. This feat does not give you the ability to maintain concentration on more than one spell at a time

[Shadowleaf]

What if I just made an illusory black hole? By definition, light can't go through it.:smallcool:You are mistaken. People would not be able to perceive light going through it. It's an illusion, light would go it just fine.