Flight

[Keneth]

Our group has never really used the ability to fly much due to the complexity of handling a third dimension in a (usually) two-dimensional game. At best a character or creature with flight would fly straight up in the air to get out of melee range and attack with ranged weapons/spells.

I'm playing a magus in one of our currently running campaigns and getting the Fly spell at the first possible opportunity is something everyone seems to recommend. While I can appreciate the increased movement speed and the ability to get yourself out of a tight spot, are there any special aerial maneuvers that you use with your characters? Is there any advantage to attacking from the square above the target? Can the creatures next to it still reach you? Which squares (err, cubes) do you (or rather don't) threaten in 3D?

Also, how do you handle ranged attacks while flying? Do you calculate the diagonal to determine if target is within range? Do you ignore the height when shooting down? What happens when someone throws a splash weapon at you while you're in mid-air and misses? Does it fall straight down? Does it arc?

The rules are pretty clear about movement when it comes to three dimensions but when it comes to fighting (i.e. when it actually matters), they are consistently vague.

How do you handle the third dimension in your campaigns? Do you use any 3rd party material that simplifies things? Do you adjudicate things on a case-by-case basis? I'd also like to hear any unique perspectives regarding flight in Pathfinder since it's handled in a slightly different manner than in 3.5.

[MesiDoomstalker]

If you use minis, use a d12 or d20 next to your mini as an indication of height. For example, you cast fly then fly upwards 20 feet, the max vertical movement you can do with Fly with a move action. You'd then place d12with "4" facing upwards representing 20 ft.

With reach, I have two advice. First, everybody threatens all squares around their cube to the same degree as they would threaten on a 2D playing map. Second, take a look at short/long creatures and realize they are a lot shorter than their cube would suggest. The way we play is short/long creature's cubes extend 5 feet less than a tall creature above then calculate reach. Its sort of a double penalty but its at least somewhat realistic. The special case here is Small creatures who have the same reach as a Medium creature but half the height. In reality, a medium creature occupies a 5 foot by 5 foot by 10 foot....3D rectangle that I forget the name of while a small creature would be 5"x5"x5". But you can completly ignore the short/long vs. tall arguement if it makes the game easier.

[deuxhero]

RAW there is no bonus to using a ranged weapon against a flying foe (try asking the DM for going downward to count as half and up to count as double as per flying maneuverability) I think there is a general "high ground" bonus that would apply to melee though.

[Quietus]

In 3d space, you threaten the 8 cubes around you, as do those on the ground. So if you're in the cube directly above a melee person, they can swat at you. If you're 10' up, and they have reach, they can swat at you.

As to special maneuvers - I think there's some kind of dive attack which lets you do double damage on a piercing attack? Have to look that up.

Ranged weapons - You can either go the route of "This is going to take a lot of math", or you can wing it and guess at the distances involved. I find that measuring the distance as normal, and then adding 1/2 of your vertical distance to that, gives a close enough estimate for my purposes. You'd also have higher ground, though that only works for melee attacks.

Splash weapons - this is where we get amusing results. Technically speaking, you can "Target a grid intersection"; This would allow you to target that square 50 feet up in midair and have the vial of alchemist's fire shatter when striking it, despite there being absolutely nothing there. Alternatively, you can treat it as normal, and use the scatter rules if you miss, and instead of shattering when it hits Flyingpants McGee, it flies 10 feet to the left and shatters in midair. If you want something more accurate than this, then you'll need to houserule it into sensibility.

[DoctorGlock]

Well, depends on whether your group uses 3.5 along with your PF and whether you count Skip's "Rules of the Game" articles to be official content. In the rules on flying there is a part about flying charges hitting for double damage, I have made great use of that in the past.

Edit: Ninja'd by Quietus. Though it's slashing and claw attacks according to Skip.

[Quietus]

To clarify (just looked it up), a dive attack only does double damage on claw or talon attacks. Also I don't know where I got the idea that higher ground increased the range of a ranged weapon; I can't find that reference on the SRD, so I've edited it out. Might have been a houserule.

[MesiDoomstalker]

Races of the Wild tells us about diving charges because of Raptorans, because they are awesome. If you charge while flying, moving at least 10 feet horizontally and I believe 40 feet downward with a piercing weapon, you deal double damage. Which means nothing for a non-gish caster I know but its still there if you give it to your lance-charger.

[DoctorGlock]

Charge

Flying creatures can use the charge action. A flying charge must be in straight line and most cover at least 10 feet (2 squares). A flyer can charge while diving, but not while gaining more than 5 feet altitude (unless the flyer has perfect maneuverability and can climb without losing speed).

If a flyer makes a diving charge of at least 30 feet (6 squares) and also loses 10 feet of altitude or more, it can attack only with a claw or with a piercing or slashing weapon. These attacks, however, deal double damage.

From "Rules of the Game"

Also a fair amount on air combat stuff.
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20040706a

Then again, Skip aint exactly RAW, but wizards web articles are usually close enough for most groups.

Now, if we get battle jump with this and put it on a raptoran and somehow make it an orc as well for headlong rush...

[deuxhero]

Note that series is famed for contradicting itself in the same article at least once (No such thing as proficiency with splash weapons, then describe a character taking a non-proficent penalty)

[DoctorGlock]

Note that series is famed for contradicting itself in the same article at least once (No such thing as proficiency with splash weapons, then describe a character taking a non-proficent penalty)

Best to cherry pick them, they still give enough basis for a clever player to say "hey DM, I found this thing on the official site..."

Alot of it is garbage, true. but there are some gems tossed in. Even skip gets it right occasionally. Even if I only feel that way because of my affinity for winged characters and big damage numbers.

[Keneth]

In 3d space, you threaten the 8 cubes around you, as do those on the ground. So if you're in the cube directly above a melee person, they can swat at you. There's not 8 cubes around you (there's 26), except horizontally, unless you mean those 8 cubes plus the one above and below you (so no vertical diagonals). Note that I asked specifically for creatures standing next to the square below you, meaning you'd have to be attacking diagonally.

Also, I already know how to execute specific game maneuvers (like charge, bull rush, etc.) while flying, that's fairly well detailed, I was more interested in any custom maneuvers or combinations of existing ones.

I guess we're gonna have to house rule ranged attacks as the DM sees fit. Since I'm still several sessions away from actually being able to fly, it might be a good idea to write down the rules beforehand. I'm slightly annoyed by this since we decided to use nothing but core pathfinder RAW and now we're back to making our own rules but I guess that's inevitable. (Note that while it may not be pertinent to our current campaign, I'm still interested in 3.5 rulings on the matter.)

For splash weapons I'm thinking if the thrower doesn't have some way of triggering it remotely then the weapon arcs back down in the same direction with equal range, i.e. the peak of the arc is at the target's height and the square where it would have landed otherwise if it was on the ground. Taking into account vertical error would be too annoying to calculate.

I like the idea of using dice to note the height at which I'm flying. :smallsmile:

[Slipperychicken]

Is there any advantage to attacking from the square above the target?

There is a +1 melee tohit for "higher ground", and it would be reasonable to let flying and ranged get in on that bonus. Get reach >10ft, and melee attack from 3 squares above. 90% of enemies can't retaliate.

[MesiDoomstalker]

From Races of the Wild in the Raptoran's Racial Features under Flight:


A Raptoran with flight can make a dive attack. A dive attack works like a charge, but the Raptoran must move a minimum of 30 feet and descend 10 feet. A Raptoran can make a dive attack only when wielding a piercign weapon; if the attacks hits, it deals double damage.

Ok, so by RAW, it is not a charge and thus won't activate any effect that operates based on a charge nor gain the +2 to hit or -2 AC and can only be done by Raptoran's with at least 5 HD. But RAI seems like its just a special charge option if you have flight and thus would do everything normally a charge would. The rules I posted above, along with how we interprut it (special charge option for flyers) is how my group handle's dive attacks. Take from it what you will, I'm not going to dicsuss the legality of my claims as I have admitted that by RAW they are illegal.

[Keneth]

Well, that would be nice but as a dexterity magus, I'm wielding a scimitar and with only official PF material, the best I can do is 10 ft. with Lunge. Which is still very decent if the target doesn't have reach. I miss out on flanking bonuses if I'm above though.

[Mafic]

Obligatory "Do a barrel roll!"

I actually made a multi-tiered structure for this based on the one that Penny Arcade did awhile ago. It basically has 4 acrylic floors that can be used for multi-level dungeons or flying. Sadly it was thrown out by someone I had lent it to.

What we usually do now is just guestimate it. It's rather simple to calculate and I'm sure there are a million internet tools for the Pythagorean Theorem.

As for melee attacks usually you can hit someone 5ft in the air (1 square up) but 10ft and you have to make a jump check and usually take some sort of minus.

[Keneth]

I can actually calculate the hypotenuse pretty much instantly in my head accurately enough for this particular purpose. The problem is, others can't. :smallbiggrin:

I think a decent estimation might be the longer side + half of the shorter side (generally height) as mentioned above and it's easy enough for everyone to calculate.

And yes, since I'm using dervish dance, you can rest assured that there will be plenty of barrel rolls. :smallbiggrin:

[Palanan]

My last gaming group had a lot of short-range flying going on, since my druid was scribing tattoos of Master Air for anyone who wanted it. To represent flight, we'd put the mini on one of the transparent plastic boxes that a set of dice comes in. It didn't always scale very well, but at least the mini was up above the table. :smallbiggrin:

[DoctorGlock]

My last gaming group had a lot of short-range flying going on, since my druid was scribing tattoos of Master Air for anyone who wanted it. To represent flight, we'd put the mini on one of the transparent plastic boxes that a set of dice comes in. It didn't always scale very well, but at least the mini was up above the table. :smallbiggrin:

My group did the exact same thing with the boxes.

[Allanimal]

My group did the exact same thing with the boxes.

As does my group.

[Keneth]

Someone should really make a game table that uses electromagnetic fields to make miniatures float.

[Rubik]

Someone should really make a game table that uses electromagnetic fields to make miniatures float.Or slightly more realistic, just have a grid suspended above the table where you can suspend your miniatures with pieces of string. :smallamused:

[Keneth]

Well that's just gonna get in the way. :smalltongue:

[nedz]

There's not 8 cubes around you (there's 26), except horizontally, unless you mean those 8 cubes plus the one above and below you (so no vertical diagonals). Note that I asked specifically for creatures standing next to the square below you, meaning you'd have to be attacking diagonally.
...
Don't get me started on Pi
...
I like the idea of using dice to note the height at which I'm flying. :smallsmile:
You have to have verticle diagonals or the combat system breaks, basically creatures with 0 reach can enter your cube without provoking.
For 10' reach you need 124 threatend cubes or else people can sneak in against long spears.
Burst and Spreaf effects don't include the 8 corner cubes though :smallsmile:
...
We normally use flying bases for flying, but we have occasionally used card counters with the height penciled on. Unless Until everyone is flying its quite easy to remember.

[Keneth]

You have to have verticle diagonals or the combat system breaks, basically creatures with 0 reach can enter your cube without provoking. While that is true for a square (cube) grid, it's also completely ridiculous and complicates calculating the threat area.

We use a hex grid though, so that's irrelevant. :smallamused:

[Prime32]

On dives :
A creature that flies can make dive attacks. A dive attack works just like a charge, but the diving creature must move a minimum of 30 feet and descend at least 10 feet. It can make only claw or talon attacks, but these deal double damage. A creature can use the run action while flying, provided it flies in a straight line.

[Keneth]

I don't think there's any dive attacks in Pathfinder (none that I can find) but as far as I can tell, you can use all the standard maneuvers normally, the only difference being that you can't trip a flying creature in PF. Of course some might not work efficiently if you can't hover (such as grapple).

[nedz]

We use a hex grid though, so that's irrelevant. :smallamused:

I must have missed where you mentioned that.

So which method of 3D hexes do you use ?

Columns of stacked hexagonal prisms
There are 20 hexagonal prisms adjacent to yours.

Packed Spheres
There are 12 spheres adjacent to yours (in one of two chiralities).

[Keneth]

Well we've never used the third dimension on a hex grid so far and while I'd love to use displaced layers (i.e. a packed spheres), I think it might be too confusing for the other players plus it creates a bunch of other abnormalities even though it would make movement much smoother. But either way we don't allow moving into spaces that don't share a side with the one you're in, so there shouldn't be any problems with threatened areas if we rule that your threat range decreases by 5 ft. for every 5 ft. of vertical distance.