Dragonkin

[Freelancer Jack]

O.K, I Roleplay as a Dragonkin as outlined on in the 3.5 Draconomicon (page 150-151). But recently on this forums 3.5 games I've been having alot of issues building a character to Roleplay as (and for once it's not about how over powered my character is).

Any help will be much appreciated.

[SexyPlantLover]

i, for one, don't understand the question. please elaborate on these issues.

[Dusk Eclipse]

The little I could understand is that the OP is playing a Dragonkin Character and that he wants some input on how to roleplay it. But I am not really sure.

[TroubleBrewing]

Avoid Dragonkin entirely... 7RHD, +2 LA? No thanks.

Try a re-fluffed Dragonborn instead.

[Krotchrot]

for the OP, what are your class(es), they can help in your RP. Personally the way I play Dragonwrought or Dragon characters depends on their environment(society, personal, familial) those are the 3 major affecting factors of everyones up bringing.

Voice or Attitude wise, I tend to sport a slow, calculating voice when thinking using some sort of lisp or extending the "S" much like you would think a snake could talk. If rushed or in a hurry, the voice becomes much more sharper and quick. I like to play off that I may seem slow in the mind, but when the group needs a quick thinker I can jump at a dime.

For better tips on Roleplaying a Dragon type character, I'd actually look towards the Races of the Dragon book over the Draconomicon, or perhaps the Dragon type your hoping to play as. For example, if you are playing as a Red Dragonkin, I would look in the MM entry and see how they might react to things.

[nyarlathotep]

To me it would really depend on your setting and how dragonkin fit into it. For instance in my campaign dragons are worshiped as gods and so anyone with dragon blood is treated like royalty, and many dragon PCs led a very sheltered life.

[Essence_of_War]

Avoid Dragonkin entirely... 7RHD, +2 LA? No thanks.

Try a re-fluffed Dragonborn instead.

It's a real shame, because if Dragonkin has Dragon hit dice rather than monstrous humanoid hit dice, I'd almost say it would be OK for a melee oriented character. Dragon hit dice are great, the LA is buyoff-able, you get movement mode + lots of physical stat boosts.

[Dusk Eclipse]

Might be inreresting to use it to jump into prestige classes such as Warmind or Suel arcanamach, Tob classes also are a good option I guess.

[Calanon]

It's a real shame, because if Dragonkin has Dragon hit dice rather than monstrous humanoid hit dice, I'd almost say it would be OK for a melee oriented character. Dragon hit dice are great, the LA is buyoff-able, you get movement mode + lots of physical stat boosts.

I managed to convince a DM to make Dragonblooded creatures to count as Dragons... :smallwink:

[Freelancer Jack]

I generally try to lean towards being a tank class character. DM's let me use Dragon hit dice when I'm in a tank role, as I need to be dealing that much damage to group to be effective. HOWEVER, problems start's when I start getting to one-on-one Encounters with other OC players.

In a one on one encounter with a play character of my same class and rank, I can genraly 1 hit kill most people who are the same, if not lower, level then me.

Now as my general rule, I believe most people go by the, "If i'm loosing your cheating." mentality. But I can generally take down any none magical character. But it's general gets to the point where my hit dice get down graded to monstrous humanoid hit dice. this makes the battle pretty lopsided against me, as I have been building my character around the huge attack power they provided me.

[Shadowleaf]

I generally try to lean towards being a tank class character. DM's let me use Dragon hit dice when I'm in a tank role, as I need to be dealing that much damage to group to be effective. HOWEVER, problems start's when I start getting to one-on-one Encounters with other OC players.

In a one on one encounter with a play character of my same class and rank, I can genraly 1 hit kill most people who are the same, if not lower, level then me.

Now as my general rule, I believe most people go by the, "If i'm loosing your cheating." mentality. But I can generally take down any none magical character. But it's general gets to the point where my hit dice get down graded to monstrous humanoid hit dice. this makes the battle pretty lopsided against me, as I have been building my character around the huge attack power they provided me.
PvP conflicts are always hard to deal with if there are different power levels/levels of optimization involved. I don't really see how using Dragon HD would make you particularly broken if the other players are of similiar power levels, but if someone is playing a Human Fighter, s/he would be curbstomped in a 1 on 1 combat.

My 2c is an out of character solution: Your character was obviously designed to fight monsters, not other characters. He is balanced in terms of fightning monsters. Changing this premise, and indeed changing your character, would be extremely unfair to you. Of course, if you/your DM knew PvP might become relevant and you still were allowed to be stronger than everyone else, then it's your DM fault, and he should act accordingly. It doesn't seem like changing your character would be the best solution, perhaps he should look at the other players' characters instead?

[Coidzor]

Now as my general rule, I believe most people go by the, "If i'm loosing your cheating." mentality. But I can generally take down any none magical character. But it's general gets to the point where my hit dice get down graded to monstrous humanoid hit dice. this makes the battle pretty lopsided against me, as I have been building my character around the huge attack power they provided me.

:smallconfused: Monstrous Humanoid HD are full BAB (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/typesSubtypes.htm#monstrousHumanoidType) just like Dragon HD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/typesSubtypes.htm#dragonType). Someone is doing it wrong somewhere if you're not getting full BAB in such a case.

If, saddled with 7 RHD and an LA of 2 and no class features you can take down a character built for melee combat, they were doing something wrong with those 9 levels of class features they had on you or you were making up for the lack of class features with your feats something fierce.

Or they were something like a fighter and your ability to fly and large size+reach basically spelled its doom.

[Greenish]

One does wonder what the OP's build looks like.

[Eldan]

I have to agree on what others said here. Comparing, say, a Dragonkin X1 to a Human X 10 means that the Dragonkin will lose fairly often, if the Human is built well. Maybe, maybe, if the human is a pure fighter, yes. But as soon as you make it, say, Crusader or Psychic Warrior instead? No contest.

[Essence_of_War]

OP, I'm still not exactly clear on:

1) What exactly your question/problem is that we can answer/help you with
and secondarily,
2) What exactly your build looks like (useful for answering 1)

[Freelancer Jack]

My exact build Uses 3.5 class Barbarian. I don't have issues until I start hitting the top levels of the Barbarian rank (I.E: when I can start using blood rage for an extended amount of time). This is when the problems start coming in because while in blood rage, Barbarians take half damage. Now combine that with my already natural armor save (which Is usely adjusted to rank 45 by this point) and I become Invincible to everything but critical hit's and sneak attack's.

Now do you see my Problem?

Here are my base racial trait I start with:
Large Monstrous Humanoid (Reptilian)

Hit Dice: 7d8+7 (38 hp)

Initiative: +5

Speed: 20 ft. (4 squares), fly 40 ft. (good)

Armor Class: 17 (+1 Dex, –1 size, +7 natural), touch 10, flat-footed 16

Base Attack/Grapple: +7/+15

Attack: Foreclaw +10 melee

Full Attack: 2 foreclaws +10 melee (1d6+4)

Space/Reach: 10 ft./10 ft.

Special Attacks:
Rake (Ex): Dragonkin make two additional attacks (+10 melee) with their rear claws for 1d6+2 points of damage each when attacking from the air.
Detect Magic (Su): Dragonkin have the innate ability to use detect magic as a free action, once per round

Special Qualities: Darkvision 60 ft. detect magic

Saves: Fort +5, Ref +6, Will +7

Abilities: Str 19, Dex 12, Con 13, Int 10, Wis 14, Cha 13

Skills: Listen +12, Spot +12 Feats: Flyby Attack, Great Fortitude, Improved Initiative

Alignment: chaotic good

Advancement: By character class

Level Adjustment: +2

Here a barbarians build:
BARBARIAN
Alignment: Any nonlawful.
Hit Die: d12.

Class Skills
The barbarian’s class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Handle Animal (Cha), Intimidate (Cha), Jump (Str), Listen (Wis), Ride (Dex), Survival (Wis), and Swim (Str).
Skill Points at 1st Level: (4 + Int modifier) x4.
Skill Points at Each Additional Level: 4 + Int modifier.

Table: The Barbarian
Level Base Attack Bonus Fort Save Ref Save Will Save Special
1st +1 +2 +0 +0 Fast movement, illiteracy, rage 1/day
2nd +2 +3 +0 +0 Uncanny dodge
3rd +3 +3 +1 +1 Trap sense +1
4th +4 +4 +1 +1 Rage 2/day
5th +5 +4 +1 +1 Improved uncanny dodge
6th +6/+1 +5 +2 +2 Trap sense +2
7th +7/+2 +5 +2 +2 Damage reduction 1/—
8th +8/+3 +6 +2 +2 Rage 3/day
9th +9/+4 +6 +3 +3 Trap sense +3
10th +10/+5 +7 +3 +3 Damage reduction 2/—
11th +11/+6/+1 +7 +3 +3 Greater rage
12th +12/+7/+2 +8 +4 +4 Rage 4/day, trap sense +4
13th +13/+8/+3 +8 +4 +4 Damage reduction 3/—
14th +14/+9/+4 +9 +4 +4 Indomitable will
15th +15/+10/+5 +9 +5 +5 Trap sense +5
16th +16/+11/+6/+1 +10 +5 +5 Damage reduction 4/—, rage 5/day
17th +17/+12/+7/+2 +10 +5 +5 Tireless rage
18th +18/+13/+8/+3 +11 +6 +6 Trap sense +6
19th +19/+14/+9/+4 +11 +6 +6 Damage reduction 5/—
20th +20/+15/+10/+5 +12 +6 +6 Mighty rage, rage 6/day

Class Features
All of the following are class features of the barbarian.

Weapon and Armor Proficiency: A barbarian is proficient with all simple and martial weapons, light armor, medium armor, and shields (except tower shields).

Fast Movement (Ex): A barbarian’s land speed is faster than the norm for his race by +10 feet. This benefit applies only when he is wearing no armor, light armor, or medium armor and not carrying a heavy load. Apply this bonus before modifying the barbarian’s speed because of any load carried or armor worn.

Illiteracy: Barbarians are the only characters who do not automatically know how to read and write. A barbarian may spend 2 skill points to gain the ability to read and write all languages he is able to speak.
A barbarian who gains a level in any other class automatically gains literacy. Any other character who gains a barbarian level does not lose the literacy he or she already had.

Rage (Ex): A barbarian can fly into a rage a certain number of times per day. In a rage, a barbarian temporarily gains a +4 bonus to Strength, a +4 bonus to Constitution, and a +2 morale bonus on Will saves, but he takes a –2 penalty to Armor Class. The increase in Constitution increases the barbarian’s hit points by 2 points per level, but these hit points go away at the end of the rage when his Constitution score drops back to normal. (These extra hit points are not lost first the way temporary hit points are.) While raging, a barbarian cannot use any Charisma-, Dexterity-, or Intelligence-based skills (except for Balance, Escape Artist, Intimidate, and Ride), the Concentration skill, or any abilities that require patience or concentration, nor can he cast spells or activate magic items that require a command word, a spell trigger (such as a wand), or spell completion (such as a scroll) to function. He can use any feat he has except Combat Expertise, item creation feats, and metamagic feats. A fit of rage lasts for a number of rounds equal to 3 + the character’s (newly improved) Constitution modifier. A barbarian may prematurely end his rage. At the end of the rage, the barbarian loses the rage modifiers and restrictions and becomes fatigued (–2 penalty to Strength, –2 penalty to Dexterity, can’t charge or run) for the duration of the current encounter (unless he is a 17th-level barbarian, at which point this limitation no longer applies; see below).
A barbarian can fly into a rage only once per encounter. At 1st level he can use his rage ability once per day. At 4th level and every four levels thereafter, he can use it one additional time per day (to a maximum of six times per day at 20th level). Entering a rage takes no time itself, but a barbarian can do it only during his action, not in response to someone else’s action.


Uncanny Dodge (Ex): At 2nd level, a barbarian retains his Dexterity bonus to AC (if any) even if he is caught flat-footed or struck by an invisible attacker. However, he still loses his Dexterity bonus to AC if immobilized. If a barbarian already has uncanny dodge from a different class, he automatically gains improved uncanny dodge (see below) instead.

Trap Sense (Ex): Starting at 3rd level, a barbarian gains a +1 bonus on Reflex saves made to avoid traps and a +1 dodge bonus to AC against attacks made by traps. These bonuses rise by +1 every three barbarian levels thereafter (6th, 9th, 12th, 15th, and 18th level). Trap sense bonuses gained from multiple classes stack.


Improved Uncanny Dodge (Ex): At 5th level and higher, a barbarian can no longer be flanked. This defense denies a rogue the ability to sneak attack the barbarian by flanking him, unless the attacker has at least four more rogue levels than the target has barbarian levels. If a character already has uncanny dodge (see above) from a second class, the character automatically gains improved uncanny dodge instead, and the levels from the classes that grant uncanny dodge stack to determine the minimum level a rogue must be to flank the character.


Damage Reduction (Ex): At 7th level, a barbarian gains Damage Reduction. Subtract 1 from the damage the barbarian takes each time he is dealt damage from a weapon or a natural attack. At 10th level, and every three barbarian levels thereafter (13th, 16th, and 19th level), this damage reduction rises by 1 point. Damage reduction can reduce damage to 0 but not below 0.

Greater Rage (Ex): At 11th level, a barbarian’s bonuses to Strength and Constitution during his rage each increase to +6, and his morale bonus on Will saves increases to +3. The penalty to AC remains at –2.

Indomitable Will (Ex): While in a rage, a barbarian of 14th level or higher gains a +4 bonus on Will saves to resist enchantment spells. This bonus stacks with all other modifiers, including the morale bonus on Will saves he also receives during his rage.

Tireless Rage (Ex): At 17th level and higher, a barbarian no longer becomes fatigued at the end of his rage.

Mighty Rage (Ex): At 20th level, a barbarian’s bonuses to Strength and Constitution during his rage each increase to +8, and his morale bonus on Will saves increases to +4. The penalty to AC remains at –2.


Now lets say I'm level 45 and in an encounter with a a PC character of any build scaled up to mine, in an arena where we are exactly 10 spaces away from each other. I will be wearing heavy steel armor. wielding a bastard sword, and have nothing equipped in my other hand. I will use my rage perks and bonuses, If they start actually beating me.

Now do all the math behind adding my racial trait together up to level 45, no add in the bonuses from Barbarian class, now add in all the perks from activating Mighty Rage. now add in the fact that my heavy armor doesn't slow me down and I can wield my bastard sword one handed with no penalty to speed.

Here's how it would genraly play out:
I would imdeatly move 10 spaces across the arena (normally my maximum, but it's buffed by Fast Movement), I may ram you if i'm feeling fancy, now I can hit you a maximum of 14 time's I believe. 4 will be from my sword, 5 from my claw, then I will move back 3 spaces and Hit my opponent with a blast of fire (if the didn't die from the first attack I made before move backward).

This has been used as a one hit kill turn by me on multiple encounters.

This is my basic formula for how I have absolutely murdered most DM's encounters by simply charging in and destroying groups of enemies with one flurry of attacks, usely while assisted by the other PC characters in my party.

Now in my opinion, if the DM can't come up with encounters to balance out my strength and the parties, then he/she isn't a very good DM. Most of the time they solve the problem by having me get paralyzed or frozen to remove me from battle without allowing me a chance to dodge or make a saving throw.

Now when my friends DM this is generally a norm, or the campian get clogged with hordes of low level undead the size of a small miltia (around 24 per encounter). Most of my friends objective in these RP's is to eliminate me, as I can destroy everybody from the get go with one attack if I wanted to. One of my friends even went as far as to make me level up x2 as slow as everybody else once.

[Eldan]

I'm not familiar with Blood Rage. Care to tell me what book it is from?

Similarly, how do you get +45 natural armour? That sounds, frankly, impossible. Epic creatures don't have that much. Or is that just your entire armour?

These numbers depend a lot on level, though. On level 20, 45 isn't that high for armour.

[Greenish]

Now do you see my Problem?No. Just telling us your class tells us very little about your character, and the rest makes little sense in context of D&D 3.5. Blood Rage? Natural armour save? Rank 45? How do Sneak Attacks hit you when other attacks don't?

…What game are you playing?

[Essence_of_War]

Echoing Eldan and Greenish, I'm beyond confused by your most recent post.:smallconfused:

[Freelancer Jack]

Please see, RACIAL TRAITS, And CLASS SHEET in the above post if your confused.

Blood rage is basically the rage feat Barbarians get. They have no difference in stats or anything.

A natural armor save is when you strike me and score a critical hit. since I have dragon scales, I can make a saving throw to see if I take extra damage or not.
(no idea where this rule came from actually, it may be in my friends own home-brew that he uses and everybody else just adopted it)

[Eldan]

Right. That sounds like just about everything you mentioned is homebrew.

By the book:

Armour is a static number, not a saving throw.
Armour doesn't have ranks.
There are no saves against critical hits.
We have never heard of a feat called Blood Rage, it doesn't seem to appear in the feat index.
Barbarians do not normally get "rage feats".
The game usually stops at level 20. With your level adjustment and racial hit dice, you can't usually only get 11 character levels before hitting that cap and going epic.
Natural weapons only get one attack, normally, not several.
Unless you have some special ability, you can't move and full attack. You certainly can't move, full attack and move again, not even with pounce or spring attack.
Your "build" is not a build, just a copy-paste from the barbarian entry in the SRD. It doesn't tell us your stats, your feats, your skills or your equipment.


So, it seems that your game, at this point, is homebrewed so much, it doesn't share much in common with normal 3.5. We can't help you if you aren't using the rules.

[CodeRed]

Please see, RACIAL TRAITS, And CLASS SHEET in the above post if your confused.

Blood rage is basically the rage feat Barbarians get. They have no difference in stats or anything.

A natural armor save is when you strike me and score a critical hit. since I have dragon scales, I can make a saving throw to see if I take extra damage or not.
(no idea where this rule came from actually, it may be in my friends own home-brew that he uses and everybody else just adopted it)

Blood Rage is not a rage feat I have ever heard of and a "natural armor save" is most definitely homebrewed. All your issues it seems is in dealing with a DM with some really weird homebrew system that is far from standard. If that's the case, most people here aren't going to be able to help much.

[Hiro Protagonest]

We need a full list of house rules.

...Unless this is the only game you've ever played and you didn't sit down and read the PHB rules before you started and have no idea what's official and what's not. :smallannoyed:

[Mystic Muse]

Blood rage is basically the rage feat Barbarians get. They have no difference in stats or anything. This is nowhere in the official rules. There is no blood rage feat, and as far as I'm aware, there's nothing that reduces damage by half like that. There are Rage feats, but they don't do this.


A natural armor save is when you strike me and score a critical hit. since I have dragon scales, I can make a saving throw to see if I take extra damage or not.
(no idea where this rule came from actually, it may be in my friends own home-brew that he uses and everybody else just adopted it)
This is definitely homebrew.




My exact build Uses 3.5 class Barbarian. I don't have issues until I start hitting the top levels of the Barbarian rank (I.E: when I can start using blood rage for an extended amount of time). This is when the problems start coming in because while in blood rage, Barbarians take half damage. Now combine that with my already natural armor save (which Is usely adjusted to rank 45 by this point) and I become Invincible to everything but critical hit's and sneak attack's.

Now do you see my Problem? As others have said, there are no natural armor saves or blood rages in normal 3.5. Maybe there's some obscure monster with an ability like blood rage, but the closest thing to a natural armor save is fortification which is much different than a saving throw.



Now lets say I'm level 45 Here's Another issue. You're level 45. Are you just a barbarian for the other 36 levels?


I will be wearing heavy steel armor. wielding a bastard sword, and have nothing equipped in my other hand. I will use my rage perks and bonuses, If they start actually beating me. Other than what is explicitly mentioned in the Barbarian's rage ability, please tell us what these perks are, since there seem to be some homebrew ones.



Now do all the math behind adding my racial trait together up to level 45, now add in the bonuses from Barbarian class, now add in all the perks from activating Mighty Rage. now add in the fact that my heavy armor doesn't slow me down and I can wield my bastard sword one handed with no penalty to speed.



Here's how it would genraly play out:
I would immediately move 10 spaces across the arena (normally my maximum, but it's buffed by Fast Movement), I may ram you if i'm feeling fancy, now I can hit you a maximum of 14 time's I believe. 4 will be from my sword, 5 from my claw, then I will move back 3 spaces and Hit my opponent with a blast of fire (if the didn't die from the first attack I made before move backward).

This has been used as a one hit kill turn by me on multiple encounters. As others have mentioned you only get one attack with your claw. Natural attacks work on a different system than normal full attacks. There is also the aforementioned fact that you can't move and full attack short of having pounce. Plus, unless you're talking about some sort of item, as a dragonkin you don't get a blast of fire.



This is my basic formula for how I have absolutely murdered most DM's encounters by simply charging in and destroying groups of enemies with one flurry of attacks, usually while assisted by the other PC characters in my party. This is the problem. You have several things that aren't actually in the rules as written, and so your PC is performing better than they should.



Now in my opinion, if the DM can't come up with encounters to balance out my strength and the parties, then he/she isn't a very good DM. Most of the time they solve the problem by having me get paralyzed or frozen to remove me from battle without allowing me a chance to dodge or make a saving throw. The DM is clearly not very experienced, and is apparently running a high level Epic campaign.

This is a bad idea. You need experience running the lower levels before you try running the higher levels. Epic is also an entirely different ballgame than the earlier levels, and many would even advise not running a campaign at those levels at all.


Most of my friends objective in these RP's is to eliminate me, as I can destroy everybody from the get go with one attack if I wanted to. One of my friends even went as far as to make me level up x2 as slow as everybody else once.

Another solution is to tone your characters down, or play something else. If you're causing problems with your characters, playing something else would probably be a good idea.

Look at the general optimization level of the other characters in the campaign and build your character to be at that level rather than being able to destroy everybody with one attack.


Overall, the problem seems to be your character having several abilities that they shouldn't (Saving against crits and sneak attack, blood rage, the ability to move and full attack unless you have pounce, attacking with your claw multiple times, and a fireblast)

If your DMs are having problems, tell them to check the official rules, and point out that your character shouldn't be getting these things. That will definitely help out.

[Freelancer Jack]

Right. That sounds like just about everything you mentioned is homebrew.

By the book:

Armour is a static number, not a saving throw.
Armour doesn't have ranks.
There are no saves against critical hits.
We have never heard of a feat called Blood Rage, it doesn't seem to appear in the feat index.
Barbarians do not normally get "rage feats".
The game usually stops at level 20. With your level adjustment and racial hit dice, you can't usually only get 11 character levels before hitting that cap and going epic.
Natural weapons only get one attack, normally, not several.
Unless you have some special ability, you can't move and full attack. You certainly can't move, full attack and move again, not even with pounce or spring attack.
Your "build" is not a build, just a copy-paste from the barbarian entry in the SRD. It doesn't tell us your stats, your feats, your skills or your equipment.


So, it seems that your game, at this point, is homebrewed so much, it doesn't share much in common with normal 3.5. We can't help you if you aren't using the rules.

In that case It sound's like I'm going to need help Revamping my entire character that I've built since I have never played anything excepted my friends own homebrew system and "Realistic/Serious RP" (in which we threw stats out the window completely).

So now it's simply a matter of REmakeing my character. Again.

I'm gonna go strangle that bastard.

[Eldan]

Okay. In that case, we will have to start at the very beginning.

The easiest way for you would be to find a Player's Handbook and read it, cover to cover, paying a lot of attention to what it says. Because it seems you haven't actually done that (no offense). Then you might want to have a look at the monster manual too.

[Freelancer Jack]

And If I'm unable to actually get my hands on a physical copy due to the fact that i'm a poor college student and I am unable to pay for shipping, let alone the books themselves?

Then what? :smallconfused:

[Eldan]

Find someone who either has a book or is willing to do character creation with you. Because while the SRD covers a lot of stuff, the very basics aren't actually in it. (For the very reason that people are supposed to buy the books, Wizards being a commercial enterprise and all.)

Bad luck, really, but I understand. I don't have the physical books either.

[Freelancer Jack]

Well The problem now becomes this:

Would anybody mind clicking the Link in my signature to my Homebrew that i'v been working on? Because That is the template I've been using for every RP I've Applied to thus far. If it's wrong I feel like a total idiot.
(I also need to take a heavy object and beat my friend half to death because he's been helping me with it [YEAH, it is the same guy who DM's for our group])

BTW, the only book I do have is the Draconomicon. So I can get all the info on any 3.5 Dragons and Dragon races I want. Lucky me.

[Mystic Muse]

And If I'm unable to actually get my hands on a physical copy due to the fact that i'm a poor college student and I am unable to pay for shipping, let alone the books themselves?

Then what? :smallconfused:

If you have AOL instant Messenger, MSN, or Skype, you could IM me and I could help you through the actual rules.

There's also the SRD here (http://www.d20srd.org/) but it's really more helpful if you already know what you have to look up.

[Freelancer Jack]

If you have AOL instant Messenger, MSN, or Skype, you could IM me and I could help you through the actual rules.

There's also the SRD here (http://www.d20srd.org/) but it's really more helpful if you already know what you have to look up.

I have Mumble and Steam Chat. Mumble is free and so is steam chat.
Instant messenger I could install, but that will piss me off by...
MINIMIZING EVERY SINGLE PROGRAM I HAVE UP THE INSTANT SOMEBODY MESSAGES ME, INCLUDING THE INTENSE BOSS BATTLE I'M RIGHT IN THE MIDDLE OF IN <INSERT GAME NAME HERE>, AND NO MATTER WHAT i DO WITH THE SETTINGS IT WILL ALWAYS DO THIS TO ME WHILE I'M IN GAME!!!

So thats why I don't use instant messenger.

If you want to reach me via steam, add

freelancerjak

to your friends list and we'll go from there.


Remember the whole Poor college student thing? If I have to pay money for it, I don't get to eat. No really, I have to decided between food and other items every single day. Probably the reason I try doing Role playing so much, considering it's free.

[Mystic Muse]

I have Mumble and Steam Chat. Mumble is free and so is steam chat. I'll look up Mumble and use that.


Remember the whole Poor college student thing? If I have to pay money for it, I don't get to eat. No really, I have to decided between food and other items every single day. Probably the reason I try doing Role playing so much, considering it's free.

Nothing about this should cost anything other than time.

[Freelancer Jack]

Did you mean AIM? Because when I search for the AOL messenger it redirects me to that.

[Mystic Muse]

Did you mean AIM? Because when I search for the AOL messenger it redirects me to that.

Yes, that what I meant.

As for Mumble, since it's a voice chat program, my ability to use, and times at which I can use it will likely be limited.

[Freelancer Jack]

I'll get AIM then. It's easier for me, I'll find a work around for any problems I have with it.

[Mystic Muse]

I'll get AIM then. It's easier for me, I'll find a work around for any problems I have with it.

Alright, my AIM address is "soulbanish"

Looking forward to it. I almost always enjoy talking to new playgrounders.:smallsmile:

[Freelancer Jack]

OK, here is the sheet We finally got hammered out.

Wrex Snaketail (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=351195)

[Eldan]

That build still has a few mistakes in it.

Starting at the top:
*It says Barbarian, but doesn't actually have any barbarian class levels. The first barbarian level would give you +1 base attack, 6 skill points, rage and 1d12 more hit points and would make you a level 10 character. The character wouldn't get fast movement, since he is wearing heavy armour.

*He doesn't have most of the benefits of his racial hit dice included. here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/typesSubtypes.htm#monstrousHumanoidType) are the benefits of monstrous humanoid hit dice listed. He has seven, so he gets 7d8 hit points (already on the sheet), but also +7/+2 base attack bonus, 4*10 (7hit dice, and times four for the first one)=40 skill points and base save modifiers of +5 reflex, +5 will and +2 fortitude.

*He doesn't have any feats. His seven racial hit dice mean that he gets three feats (you get a feat at level 1, and every three hit dice after that, so 3 and 6 for this character. He gets the next one on Barbarian level 2, when he has nine hit dice). I recommend Power Attack, the standard for any melee character with high strength. Another good one, for a large-sized barbarian with decent charisma as this one is Initimidating rage, which basically allows him to scare people when raging.

*You lack skill points, as far as I can see. I'd recommend putting maximum points into intimidate, and then whatever you think is good. Spot and Listen are always nice, as is survival.

[Mystic Muse]

That build still has a few mistakes in it. Sorry. We were discusssing other things at one point and I didn't get the chance to bring them up.

[Freelancer Jack]

I will do it after finals today.

[Eldan]

Sorry. We were discusssing other things at one point and I didn't get the chance to bring them up.

:smallconfused:

No need to apologize? I mean, I'm not your boss or anything. I'm just trying to help.

[Mystic Muse]

:smallconfused:

No need to apologize? I mean, I'm not your boss or anything. I'm just trying to help.

Apologizing too much, and for no reason, is one of my flaws.

There's a reason I'm Fluttershyitp after all.:smalltongue: Actually about half a dozen reasons, but that's one of them.

[Sir_Chivalry]

As per this request:

If you wish to help me build My character (which you seem to be very eager to do) I suggest this Thread Where I'm actually listening to suggestions, and not clogging up recruitment threads. :smallannoyed:



This is idiotic. Is this a ****ing fashion show or something?

Look, my character is a tribal Dragonkin from a tribe of Dragonkin, dragon born, and other Draconic outcasts. I thought it would be a simple thing to say "He got his armor of some people he killed and just attached some leather straps to it." Why is that such a massive problem?

The iron breast plat protects the front of my torso down to my waist. It is held on by simple leather straps that Wrex made from deer hide. The only benefit it gives me is protection is damage reduction on that part of my body.

The greaves i'm using as bracers. They are some persons pants. After he killed them he took their iron leggings and tore them up until he had the upper calf part separated from the rest, then he fashioned them into bracers with some simple leather straps. they do nothing but act as armor for that area of his body.

As for the sword, It's a basterd sword for a HUMAN, Now Wrex is 7ft tall. the person who had been using the sword was about 6ft'3. The sword is 5ft long. now to a human, that is a great sword and would be extremely heavy and hard to wield. to A large monstrous humanoid like Wrex, It's a long sword.

Now i'm not sure if you noticed, but I used alot of LOGIC when building my character and his gear. Now I know that Logic has no place in DnD, but I think that if Something that could actually be allowed in game if I used cunning and crafting abilities combined with wisdom and and intelligence to do.
I'm pretty sure a tribal from a place way up in the mountains could possibly find a "weird grey rock" that one of the "pale soft things" was wearing and notice that it was really hard for his claws to rip open. Then take that rock and craft it into armor that he could wear.
I don't think it's to much of a stretch either to say that he just fought a guy wielding a great sword and then notice, "hey this is the perfect size for me." and just take it.

If you want some context as to how smart Wrex is compared to the rest of his tribe here are some examples of dialouge I have used in RP:

"Hey, don't those pale, squishy things that pass by occationaly have better weapons then our wooden spears." -After his hunting party was unsuccessful at killing a dire bear. (yes, a dire bear from the monster manual)

"Hey guys, this weird grey rock their waering is really tough, we should take it." -After killing a caravan of traders.

"Hey and theres stuff in this wooden thing they had too." -same caravan of traders.

"Maybe we should stop throwing the younglings of the cliff to see if they can fly, that seems counter productive." -On increasing the population in the village.

"Don't the pale ones have beasts that they keep within their village? we could go and take a few of them. Maybe take some of their food too, they must have much, for I can smell it whenever we pass near it." -On how to get extra supplies in the middle of winter. (The raid actually ended up with us hauling off a majority of their food too. I obtain said Great sword from the raid)

Maybe one of my feats should be "COMMON SENSE."

Now i'm sorry if I'm skirting the rules just a bit, but come on. The stuff you want me to do just requires me to change the name of my sword to "Iron great sword" and change my armor rating a bit so it's accurate.

Why must you make this so overly complicated?

None of that is relevant to this game.

Your armour is something from the list found on the d20srd. Copy the bonus provided, the max dex, the armour check penalty, and the weight to your sheet. As a normal dragonkin, you have no proficiency that I can see with armour, as the stat block is not described as wearing any. Until you become a barbarian and gain proficiency (or take feats), you'd apply the previously mentioned armour check penalty to your attacks, so it's not advised to wear armour.

Whatever the weapon is in the real world, in dnd we use certain terms like "battleaxe, longsword, falchion" that don't necessarily apply to the weapons they mean so that everyone has an agreed-upon set of terms for ease of play. Also, you'd take a penalty (-2 to attack) for wielding a weapon that's smaller than suited for your character.

Unless Bridgar has stated otherwise, or you have asked express permission, I'd think spelltouched feats aren't a given. Even though he allows the SRD, those feats assume aspects of backstory that must be carefully agreed upon with the DM

All this is useless however, if we don't address the problem of this being a 5th level game that you are applying to with a 9th level character. If you want a 5th level character who is draconic, a number of templates have been suggested above.

These are the rules of the game, both in the fundamentals of DnD, and the ones Bridgar has chosen. By applying for the game, it is assumed you are consenting to playing by said rules.

To quote your above post:

Why must you make this so overly complicated?


Indeed

[Greenish]

Not in D&D terms. In D&D terms, a bastard sword is an exotic weapon, deals 1d10 slashing damage, can be wielded in two hands as a martial weapon, or can be wielded in one hand, requiring either proficiency with the weapon, or imposing a -4 non-proficiency penalty to attacks.Actually, Wrex could use a medium bastard sword one-handed with just -2 penalty from inappropriately sized weapon. Or he could use large longsword (which is 2d6 damage).

[Mystic Muse]

All this is useless however, if we don't address the problem of this being a 5th level game that you are applying to with a 9th level character. If you want a 5th level character who is draconic, a number of templates have been suggested above.

Yeah, Jack, this is kind of a major issue. If you want to play a Dragonkin, you're going to have to apply for a campaign that starts at level 9 or higher.

All the feedback they've given you is going to be relevant in most games regardless, but you need to apply to a game with a starting level of at least nine, or one where the DM specifically says you can play a Dragonkin despite the starting level.

[Greenish]

Might be worth it to toss the idea of a dragonkin racial class for the homebrew board to chew.

[Freelancer Jack]

Might be worth it to toss the idea of a dragonkin racial class for the homebrew board to chew.

I actually have one there.

I update it frequently, here. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=223582) That's the homebrew page.

[Greenish]

I actually have one there.Not what I meant. I was thinking of converting the race to a class, so you could play one from level one. For example, like this Balor (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7967157&postcount=58) or this Coatl (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9237490&postcount=117).

Also, do you know the difference between "homebrewing" and "making a character"?

[Sir_Chivalry]

I actually have one there.

I update it frequently, here. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=223582) That's the homebrew page.

It would help if there was a class, or any sort of actual homebrew on that thread. As it stands, it's this thread again.

[Mystic Muse]

I actually have one there.

I update it frequently, here. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=223582) That's the homebrew page.

Racial class is something different. It's a thing where you split up the entire effective class level of your class (In your case 9) into that many levels. You would have to take all 9 levels of the class before multi-classing, but you would be able to play from level one.

There's also monster classes, like the Silver Dragon I showed you. These are something entirely different, and aren't as well known. Plus, there aren't very many people who make them, so your request would probably take quite a while regardless of who you asked to make it.


Not what I meant. I was thinking of converting the race to a class, so you could play one from level one. For example, like this Balor (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7967157&postcount=58) or this Coatl (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9237490&postcount=117).

Also, do you know the difference between "homebrewing" and "making a character"?

Yeah, these things. As far as I'm aware, I'm the only one with a currently active thread (:smallfrown:) and I've got a bit of a backlog, so Dragonkin wouldn't be coming for a long while.

[Freelancer Jack]

I guess not. Look if you want to get really active with giving me hand building this Character, Please join me and Soft Serve in AIM chat so we can all be actively talking to each other.

I honestly just want to hammer this all out and make it acceptable so I can start doing the fun part of this. This is starting to be massive amounts of work that I have put into something that is still incorrect. I am unwilling to just abandon something I've already levied +5 hours of my life into and i'm going to keep at it until everything is up to par.

BTW, It's been updated again. so here (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=351195) is the updated version that I have so far. I added in everything, nailed down the racial traits, added in armor bonuses and penalties, and managed to get everything sorted out to the best of Soft Served and my knowledge.

So how does it look NOW?

[Mystic Muse]

I guess not. Look if you want to get really active with giving me hand building this Character, Please join me and Soft Serve in AIM chat so we can all be actively talking to each other.

I honestly just want to hammer this all out and make it acceptable so I can start doing the fun part of this. This is starting to be massive amounts of work that I have put into something that is still incorrect. I am unwilling to just abandon something I've already levied +5 hours of my life into and i'm going to keep at it until everything is up to par.

BTW, It's been updated again. so here (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=351195) is the updated version that I have so far. I added in everything, nailed down the racial traits, added in armor bonuses and penalties, and managed to get everything sorted out to the best of Soft Served and my knowledge.

So how does it look NOW?

Just to point out, I have mentioned that the way he did skills looks a little funky, and that by the Rules as Written, Dragonkin don't get a breath weapon.

I may have missed some other things though. I'm kinda tired right now.

[Sir_Chivalry]

I guess not. Look if you want to get really active with giving me hand building this Character, Please join me and Soft Serve in AIM chat so we can all be actively talking to each other.

I honestly just want to hammer this all out and make it acceptable so I can start doing the fun part of this. This is starting to be massive amounts of work that I have put into something that is still incorrect. I am unwilling to just abandon something I've already levied +5 hours of my life into and i'm going to keep at it until everything is up to par.

BTW, It's been updated again. so here (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=351195) is the updated version that I have so far. I added in everything, nailed down the racial traits, added in armor bonuses and penalties, and managed to get everything sorted out to the best of Soft Served and my knowledge.

So how does it look NOW?

With the exception that the sword shouldn't have range. Other stuff may be there too. And obviously, it's still not appropriate for <ECL 9 games.

[Mystic Muse]

With the exception that the sword shouldn't have range. Other stuff may be there too. And obviously, it's still not appropriate for <ECL 9 games.

He's large size, so his sword should have the same reach he does, shouldn't it?

Unless I'm just misreading what you're saying and interpreting you saying "Range" to mean the same thing as "Reach".

[Greenish]

Still not proficient with the armour, and could use magic items other than those boots of stomping.

[Edit]:
He's large size, so his sword should have the same reach he does, shouldn't it?Reach and Range are different things.

[Sir_Chivalry]

He's large size, so his sword should have the same reach he does, shouldn't it?

Different thing entirely. You write "reach" under special qualities there. Except that would be if it's a reach weapon. It's just assumed his weapons reach as far as he does. Range is for ranged and throwing weapons

[Mystic Muse]

Still not proficient with the armour, and could use magic items other than those boots of stomping.

He's already taken the penalty to his attack rolls for not being proficient in the armor. Is there another penalty somewhere that I missed?

[Daftendirekt]

You know, 5 hours is about average for any character over level 3, so... stop complaining. Also:

-Stop trying to shoe-horn your character into a campaign that's not even level 9. Witnessed that in one I'm in, and saw another mentioned higher on this very page.
-Learn the rules. That's how DnD is played. Rules. Logic comes secondary, for better or worse.
-If you REALLY want to play in previously mentioned campaigns, come up with a different idea and stop obsessing over this one and getting pissed at every single person who gives you legitimate, by-the-rules advice.

[Greenish]

He's already taken the penalty to his attack rolls for not being proficient in the armor.Ah, missed that since it didn't occur to me anyone would choose to do so. Now it just offends my aesthetic sense, not any rules. :smallwink:

[Mystic Muse]

.

[Edit]: Reach and Range are different things.


Different thing entirely. You write "reach" under special qualities there. Except that would be if it's a reach weapon. It's just assumed his weapons reach as far as he does. Range is for ranged and throwing weapons

Ah. Sorry, slight mistake on my part there.

Myth-weavers sheets still confuse me sometimes, even though I've been using them for several years now.

[Sir_Chivalry]

Ah, missed that since it didn't occur to me anyone would choose to do so. Now it just offends my aesthetic sense, not any rules. :smallwink:

If he really wants the extra +1 to AC breastplate gives him over mithral chain shirt, who are we to argue.

Note, masterwork armour would have one less point of armour check penalty

[Freelancer Jack]

You know, 5 hours is about average for any character over level 3, so... stop complaining. Also:

-Stop trying to shoe-horn your character into a campaign that's not even level 9. Witnessed that in one I'm in, and saw another mentioned higher on this very page.
-Learn the rules. That's how DnD is played. Rules. Logic comes secondary, for better or worse.
-If you REALLY want to play in previously mentioned campaigns, come up with a different idea and stop obsessing over this one and getting pissed at every single person who gives you legitimate, by-the-rules advice.

While your point is valid, here is the thing:

If I just go ahead and BS my build as being a home-brewed Dragonborn or other half dragon race. It will feel wrong to me because I truly do not like creating a fluff version of something that already exists. Why build something that already exists? it's already balanced enough, I don't want to go and mess with it more then it already is.

[Mystic Muse]

While your point is valid, here is the thing:

If I just go ahead and BS my build as being a home-brewed Dragonborn or other half dragon race. It will feel wrong to me because I truly do not like creating a fluff version of something that already exists. Why build something that already exists? it's already balanced enough, I don't want to go and mess with it more then it already is.

You being a Dragonkin isn't the problem.

The problem is you not really knowing the rules, in some cases not following them when you're told what they are, and trying to play a level 9 character in a game specifically calling for 5th level PCs.

[Freelancer Jack]

In that case, does anybody know of any games accepting apps for characters lvl9 and up?

Preferably with a patient DM/GM that doesn't mind dealing with new players.

[Mystic Muse]

In that case, does anybody know of any games accepting apps for characters lvl9 and up?

Preferably with a patient DM/GM that doesn't mind dealing with new players.

I'll have to check things during Christmas break, but if you want to play so badly, I could try to run a solo game for you.

Naturally, we'd have to discuss things since I don't know enough about your general playstyle or what you're expecting, but it's a possibility.

[Freelancer Jack]

I'll have to check things during Christmas break, but if you want to play so badly, I could try to run a solo game for you.

Naturally, we'd have to discuss things since I don't know enough about your general playstyle or what you're expecting, but it's a possibility.

I enjoy the use of the "iTank" application to role-play. :smalltongue:

Though I have been known to play the odd bodyguard for a noble or mage, being a mercenary really makes my character flexible to all kinds of plots.

[Greenish]

There're these wild rumours I've been hearing… about people who, well, who have more than one character! I know, wild, right?

[onemorelurker]

There're these wild rumours I've been hearing… about people who, well, who have more than one character! I know, wild, right?

He's very new to the game, and he found a particular thing that he really likes. Cut him some slack. I bet once he becomes more familiar with the game he'll get interested in playing other things, or at least other kinds of tanks. :smalltongue:

[Sir_Chivalry]

He's very new to the game, and he found a particular thing that he really likes. Cut him some slack. I bet once he becomes more familiar with the game he'll get interested in playing other things, or at least other kinds of tanks. :smalltongue:

Too true. Who are we to stop him? (hides his one billion variations on the character "Dorian Lancaster")

That being said, being a tank takes . . . tanking. Knight or Crusader, just being a 9th level character with 7th level hp isn't going to cut it.

[Greenish]

I totally have not done a thousand and one iterations of one character. *whistles innocently*

[Freelancer Jack]

The hypocrecy in this thread is palpable. :smallamused:

[Eldan]

May I give you some general advice ,not related to D&D?

If you would like people's advice, shouting at them (metaphorically in this case, as we are on the internet),calling them hypocrites and then not listening to their advice repeatedly won't make you any friends and will soon lead to you not getting advice from anyone.


Now, there is one other thing. The rules. You have said that you want to make this logical. That is, at its basis, a fine idea. However, D&D is on some levels a very abstract game. Hit points, as an example, are wounds, fatigue and morale all rolled into one. A single attack roll is not necessarily one attack, but represents an entire six seconds of parrying, stabbing, slashing and feinting. Armour reduces the damage you take not by damage reduction, but by making you harder to hit, which is often meant to represent hits that harmlessly glance off. Talking about what materials your weapon is made off is often irrelevant to the game as, by the normal rules, it makes no difference whether your breastplate is steel or bronze.

Now, this has changed a bit from edition to edition in D&D. Third edition has introduced skills and feats, while earlier editions might have had 30 varieties of pole arm, or modifiers on attack rolls for your weapon's reach and speed and your opponents armour. These things change, but the basic idea is always that D&D rather provides a more abstract game. There are other games out there that go in far more detail in combat (say, some where you roll to hit single body parts, and then divide your damage over skin, muscle and bone, before rolling how crippling the damage is), but the problem with those is that combat takes three times as long.

Overall: take it easy. It seems complicated at first, but the important thing to know is: especially online, it is very important that everyone in a game agrees to one standard of the rules. When we are not playing with the same rules, we aren't really playing together.

[Sir_Chivalry]

The hypocrecy in this thread is palpable. :smallamused:

Hardly hypocrisy. We're telling you how to make the character you'd like to make within the rules. No one is actually telling you to not make him, nor is my billion copies of the same character actually applicable to the situation

[Freelancer Jack]

Eldan, I respect what you say because you have a good point, but the thing is I used to play an extremely modified version of DnD that revolved around Realism.

When you got stabbed and it punched through armor, you could bleed to death.

If you weren't wearing a helmet and something fell and hit you in the head, it could instantly kill you.

If somebody took a swing a a specific part of your body, you rolled for that perticuler pieces of armor, not your overall armor score/rating.

If you got a arrow to the shoulder, it crippled that arm. ETC,etc.

so I do understand SOME of the concepts you throwing at me. Most of these things make sense, i'm just trying to get stable footing in the new system and am slowly realizing it's a little over my head and I need help.

[Eldan]

The thing is? Most of that is still *in* D&D. It is in how you explain things.

Getting stabbed in the heart kills you. Few things change that (being undead is an example, as are certain spells). However, there isn't really a way to attack a body part. So, a hit that doesn't kill you obviously did not hit the heart.

Similarly, and this is very important to know: hit points aren't really wounds. They are your ability to take a wound and keep going. A simple example:

You are level one, and you have 10 hit points. Someone hits you with his fist for 1d3+1 damage. Obviously, that punch won't knock you unconcious. It is then assumed that you narrowly avoided the hit, or blocked and parried it, or did something else to avoid the full damage. Instead, you tire. If you take 3 damage, you have 7 hit points left. If he hits you another three times, each time dealing 2 damage, you have one hit point left. Your character knows that he can't really go on with this fight. He is breathing heavily and can barely defend himself. If the other gets another good strike in (i.e. hits), he'll knock you out. That will be the right hook to the jaw that knocks you out, not the first five hits.

It's similar with lethal weapons. The high level barbarian with 200 hit points most likely can't take an average of 50 hits to the chest from a sword. What he can do is fight the average commoner for for half a way, laughing at his puny attempts to strike him as he parries blow after blow.

Or in other words: abstraction. A simplification of the rules behind an action to make it flow faster, to be made into a coherent whole by the explanation crafted around the results the rules give you.
In D&D, the rules were not created to give precise results. Instead, they were built to make combat manageable at the table. The results come from how the rules play out, not the other way around. You do not hit someone in the head, then expect them to die from it. Instead, you hit him, then look if he dies. If he did, your hit was to a vital organ. if he didn't die, it wasn't.


Edit:
And another thing: Realism is a word that annoys a lot of people in fantasy games, because it does not really apply. In a world where a giant can grow fifty feet tall without shattering his leg bones from the weight, where giant lizards can breathe fire and wizards can pull matter and energy out of thin air witha thought, realism obviously does not apply.
The world you are looking for is Verisimilitude, or loosely translated: the appearance of truth, or the similarity to truth. You want a system that is internally consistent given what you are told about the world. Not one that models reality.

[Freelancer Jack]

The thing is? Most of that is still *in* D&D. It is in how you explain things.

Getting stabbed in the heart kills you. Few things change that (being undead is an example, as are certain spells). However, there isn't really a way to attack a body part. So, a hit that doesn't kill you obviously did not hit the heart.

I have been in realism Campaigns where the Undead would simply not die until you had utterly and completely destroyed them.
I.E: hack off the limbs they can they can use to attack you with from the body, or else the crawl after you and attempt to hack at you leg's, ram you as a armless torso, or blindly swing their sword around with no head.

I enjoyed these campaigns thoroughly as the undead were always scaled down to half the weakest party members lvl. Giving me a huge amounts of enemies to simply plow through without having to worry about taking large amounts of damage.


Similarly, and this is very important to know: hit points aren't really wounds. They are your ability to take a wound and keep going. A simple example:

You are level one, and you have 10 hit points. Someone hits you with his fist for 1d3+1 damage. Obviously, that punch won't knock you unconcious. It is then assumed that you narrowly avoided the hit, or blocked and parried it, or did something else to avoid the full damage. Instead, you tire. If you take 3 damage, you have 7 hit points left. If he hits you another three times, each time dealing 2 damage, you have one hit point left. Your character knows that he can't really go on with this fight. He is breathing heavily and can barely defend himself. If the other gets another good strike in (i.e. hits), he'll knock you out. That will be the right hook to the jaw that knocks you out, not the first five hits.

That makes sense, that is grounded in reality and doesn't need anymore explanation.


It's similar with lethal weapons. The high level barbarian with 200 hit points most likely can't take an average of 50 hits to the chest from a sword. What he can do is fight the average commoner for for half a way, laughing at his puny attempts to strike him as he parries blow after blow.

Also makes large amounts of sense and has reasoning behind it.


Or in other words: abstraction. A simplification of the rules behind an action to make it flow faster, to be made into a coherent whole by the explanation crafted around the results the rules give you.
In D&D, the rules were not created to give precise results. Instead, they were built to make combat manageable at the table. The results come from how the rules play out, not the other way around. You do not hit someone in the head, then expect them to die from it. Instead, you hit him, then look if he dies. If he did, your hit was to a vital organ. if he didn't die, it wasn't.

Hitting someone in the head should at least stun a person for a few seconds if their not wearing a helmet though.


Edit:
And another thing: Realism is a word that annoys a lot of people in fantasy games, because it does not really apply. In a world where a giant can grow fifty feet tall without shattering his leg bones from the weight, where giant lizards can breathe fire and wizards can pull matter and energy out of thin air witha thought, realism obviously does not apply.
The world you are looking for is Verisimilitude, or loosely translated: the appearance of truth, or the similarity to truth. You want a system that is internally consistent given what you are told about the world. Not one that models reality.

Yeah now here's a problem I have with that (and i discussed this with soft serve too):
I like wearing breast plate armor because it does not realistically restrict the movement of my arms. but I get a damage penalty for wearing it, as if I did indeed have medium armor on my arms that would restrict my movement.
That doesn't make any sense to me. I can still pull my arms back and rotate them around as if I wasn't wearing any armor, but some how it's restricting my movement and making me less effective in combat.

and another thing We did manage to figure out. I'm carrying around a basterd sword that was crafted for a medium humanoid. I am a large monstrous humanoid, it would be a long sword to me according to the rules, but if even if I put in all the stats correctly and have everything set up as if i was using a long sword of that length, as soon as Basterd sword gets labeled properly onto the weapon, Everybody and their mum throws a massive fit.

[Mystic Muse]

Yeah now here's a problem I have with that (and i discussed this with soft serve too):
I like wearing breast plate armor because it does not realistically restrict the movement of my arms. but I get a damage penalty for wearing it, as if I did indeed have medium armor on my arms that would restrict my movement.
That doesn't make any sense to me. I can still pull my arms back and rotate them around as if I wasn't wearing any armor, but some how it's restricting my movement and making me less effective in combat. I think the point is, if you're not proficient, you're not used to wearing it at all. Try fighting one way for most of your life without armor, then suddenly fight with armor one day, an it's likely that you won't be used to it either.


and another thing We did manage to figure out. I'm carrying around a basterd sword that was crafted for a medium humanoid. Well, according to you it would have been a greatsword for a medium humanoid.
I am a large monstrous humanoid, it would be a long sword to me according to the rules, but if even if I put in all the stats correctly and have everything set up as if i was using a long sword of that length, as soon as Basterd sword gets labeled properly onto the weapon, Everybody and their mum throws a massive fit.
That's because the Hand and a half sword has very specific mechanics. It's pretty much the same as being a rogue/fighter/Bard but writing down "Sorcerer" in your class. You can call yourself, or it that if you want, but you need to write down what it actually is according to the mechanics, or nobody but you understands what it means.

[Eldan]

Armour penalty does not apply to attacks.

And, well, most armour barely restricts your movement at all. There's a video somewhere floating around on the net where someone is wearing proper plate armour. Made to perfectly fit his body, properly strapped on and so on. He can jump, roll, climb and so on without showing much sign of encumbrance.
Looking at it, the breastplate has a modifier of -4 to, I quote: Balance, Climb, Escape Artist, Hide, Jump, Move Silently, Sleight of Hand, and Tumble checks. A lot of that can be explained simply by the weight of the armour. Now, whether that is perfectly logical or not is a question, of ocurse, but that's how it is.


And swords don't work like that in D&D.
A bastard sword is not a longsword for someone bigger. It is a bastard sword that is too small and not properly balanced for them.

There is a difference, in D&D, between a large long sword and a medium bastard sword. The medium bastard sword is weighted and balanced for a medium creature and has a hilt and grip made for a human. The large longsword has perhaps the same length of blade, but it is weighted and balanced for a large creature, and has a hilt that size.
So, using the medium bastard sword one-handed gives you a penalty to your attack roll, because you can't hold it properly. Holding the large longsword, on the other hand, doesn't give you a penalty, since it is made for someone your size.

What exactly is the problem with that rule?

If, somehow, having a medium bastard sword is important for your character, in the game, I'd recommend doing hte following:
Buy a large longsword. Write "large longsword" on your sheet. Then have your character call it, in character, a "bastard sword". No one will raise an eyebrow at that. It is called re-fluffing, i.e. using the rules for something, but using it to represent something else.

That goes a long way in D&D, by the way. You can call a rogue a martial arts master (his strikes hurt ten times as much as someone else's, since he knows where to hit). You can call a bard a scholar. You can call your wizard an engineer and say that his spells are the results of machines he carries on his body. You can say that your cleric is not channelling the power of the gods, but of spirits he bargains with. I've personally built a binder (someone who summons beings from outside reality to bargain with) and played him as a mercenary who was possessed by the ghosts of all the people he killed (they took him over form time to time, so he could use their abilities, but changed his personality). You can call your druid a changeling or your raptoran a bat-man, as long as everyone knows what rules you are using.

There's a thousand ways to play anything.

Coming back to your armour: a lot of armour in the PHB is used to represent an entire assortment of gear. The full plate also has chainmail and padding under it and it includes a helmet, gauntlets and boots. Chainmail could very well also have shoulder pads, vambraces, greaves and . Leather and studded leather are ,really, armour that never really existed in real life. Perhaps your breastplate is supposed to also have chainmail under it, covering the arms and shoulders, which is probably a reasonable assumption, or greaves and vambraces. If you don't like that you could, perhaps, use the stats for studded leather and call it a breastplate. That will reduce the penalty, but also the armour. Because really, a +5 is a lot of protection and probably also includes something for your arms.

[Freelancer Jack]

If you want to get into the fun part of this, try helping out with my IUF character sheet.

In that RP people are starting at lvl 24, so i'm also having to add in all the nice bonuses gained from being a 14th lvl Barbarian.

oh, and Those levels eliminate the previous problems i was having since Barbarians are preficent with Medium and heavy armor, along with having a nice bonus that actually let me use a Basterd sword scaled up to my size of Large Monstrous Humanoid.

Wrex Snaketail: IUF build (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=351525)

[Gavinfoxx]

Okay. You want to play a realistic D&D game? Then you need to play something OTHER than standard 3.5e D&D. REALLY.

Go buy this:

http://www.rpgnow.com/product_info.php?products_id=65250

THAT is a realistic D&D game. As long as you play a rogue, fighter, expert or aristocrat, using that set of rules, and probably E6 as well (look it up), which supplement and change the rules in the player's handbook and the dungeon master's guide, you can have your cake and eat it too.

[Freelancer Jack]

Okay. You want to play a realistic D&D game? Then you need to play something OTHER than standard 3.5e D&D. REALLY.

Go buy this:

http://www.rpgnow.com/product_info.php?products_id=65250

THAT is a realistic D&D game. As long as you play a rogue, fighter, expert or aristocrat, using that set of rules, and probably E6 as well (look it up), which supplement and change the rules in the player's handbook and the dungeon master's guide, you can have your cake and eat it too.

{Scrubbed}

[Gavinfoxx]

Riight. Okay, at level 9, you are a Dragonkin almost exactly as shown in the Draconomicon or Monster of Faerun option, though you should probably be able to change your feats from your 7 hit dice, and your skills from your humanoid hit dice around, and maybe your ability scores a little. Now, generally, you will want to start at level 10, which would make you a 'Monstrous Humanoid 7/+2 Level Adjustment/Barbarian 1', so you actually start with, you know, class features and such. In such a case, you will generally be very weak for a level 10 character, a bit of a glass cannon, as it were -- you would have 8 hit dice at level 10, 7 of them very weak compared to real classes, and a +2 level adjustment to boot. D&D is a game of getting a concept in your head, as broad a concept as possible, and then doing what it takes to get the concept to work.

Let's look boil down this base concept to something more manageable:

"Large Sized, Very strong Brute of a Barbarian, with an extensive Dragon and/or Reptile flavor, with wings and several natural weapons, that can plausibly call 'Dragonkin', getting as many similarities to the creatures in Draconomicon or Monsters of Faerun as possible."

Now, if you accept THAT as your starting point, you just have to look for the ways of getting 3.5e to do what you want it to do. Make sense?

[Freelancer Jack]

<SNIP>

{Scrubbed}

If I seem a we bit peeved at you it's because I do not enjoy asking for help and somebody pitching useless merch at me. I don't care how awesome it is, I just got my frigging feet on the ground in the current 3.5 system and I'm not uprooting again.

[Mystic Muse]

Riight. Okay, at level 9, you are a Dragonkin almost exactly as shown in the Draconomicon or Monster of Faerun option, though you should probably be able to change your feats from your 7 hit dice, and your skills from your humanoid hit dice around, and maybe your ability scores a little. Now, generally, you will want to start at level 10, which would make you a 'Monstrous Humanoid 7/+2 Level Adjustment/Barbarian 1', so you actually start with, you know, class features and such. In such a case, you will generally be very weak for a level 10 character, a bit of a glass cannon, as it were -- you would have 8 hit dice at level 10, 7 of them very weak compared to real classes, and a +2 level adjustment to boot. D&D is a game of getting a concept in your head, as broad a concept as possible, and then doing what it takes to get the concept to work.

Let's look boil down this base concept to something more manageable:

"Large Sized, Very strong Brute of a Barbarian, with an extensive Dragon and/or Reptile flavor, with wings and several natural weapons, that can plausibly call 'Dragonkin', getting as many similarities to the creatures in Draconomicon or Monsters of Faerun as possible."

Now, if you accept THAT as your starting point, you just have to look for the ways of getting 3.5e to do what you want it to do. Make sense?



If I just go ahead and BS my build as being a home-brewed Dragonborn or other half dragon race. It will feel wrong to me because I truly do not like creating a fluff version of something that already exists. Why build something that already exists? it's already balanced enough, I don't want to go and mess with it more then it already is.

He's said he doesn't want to do that, since it wouldn't feel the same.

However, Gavin is right. The best way to do this would be to let go of having to have your race specifically be the Dragonkin, play something else, and just calling him a Dragonkin.

You're already doing the same thing with your weapon, why not do the same thing with your race? It'd make your character less of a glass cannon, and you could use your character in lower level games.

[Sir_Chivalry]

{Scrubbed the post, scrub the quote.}

If I seem a we bit peeved at you it's because I do not enjoy asking for help and somebody pitching useless merch at me. I don't care how awesome it is, I just got my frigging feet on the ground in the current 3.5 system and I'm not uprooting again.

Actually, everything just said was in the 3.5 system.

Also, on the subject of Dragonborn, you're mistaking this:http://images.wikia.com/dnd4/images/8/8e/DragonbornPHB.jpg

With this:http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20111018161724/elderscrolls/images/thumb/4/4d/Dovahkiin.jpg/300px-Dovahkiin.jpg

When it comes to our scaly friends, no Skyrim references required.

[Jheska]

Right, having looked around for a few other options that might be helpful to you I really would suggest the dragonborn template from the book "races of the dragon".

It essentialy boils down to ignoring any details of your previous race but size and ability modifiers (higher strength or low charisma for example) then lowering your Dex by two and raising your Con by two.

From there you get to pick one of three stereotypical draconic things that are


Wings that at low levels help you jump and glide, later you can use them to fly for short periods and eventually fly all day long
The ability to breath fire every few rounds (or actually several other elements) that gets stronger as you level
A few immunites and abilities dragons get like the ability to first see in the dark and then eventually sense invisible presences

This template doesn't adjust your level, so it is a very good way to play a draconic themed character at low levels. One of the big problems with playing things like a dragonkin as your race is that racial hit dice tend to be weaker than actual levels in a class so you will be weaker than other players of the same level.

Unfortunatly that template can only provide you with a draconic looking body and either wings or fire breath. If you want large size or claws those will have to come from your base classes or race. I'd be happy to discuss where you might want to look for these sort of options.

[Mystic Muse]

Unfortunatly that template can only provide you with a draconic looking body and either wings or fire breath. If you want large size or claws those will have to come from your base classes or race. I'd be happy to discuss where you might want to look for these sort of options.

However, there is a chain of feats to get dragon wings, so you could get the breath weapon and spend feats to get the wings.

You could take a template to get the claws depending on which sources you have. Unfortunately there's not any way I'm aware of to remain an elf and have natural large size.

[Jheska]

Its very difficult to get large size for a reasonable cost. About the best is Half-Ogre for +2 level adjustment, he could compramise with something like half-giant (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicRaces.htm#halfGiants) to get powerful build which lets them count as large for several useful things, but I think they loose that if they become dragonborn.

Really I guess he needs to prioritise what abilities he would like his character to have so we can help him achieve as many of them as simply as possible without ending up with a character that will leave him feeling useless.

[Gavinfoxx]

So how about Draconic Half-Giant, then? LA+2? With Level Adjustment Buyoff?

[Freelancer Jack]

{Scrubbed}

also, please grab a copy of the draconomicon and read pages 150-151.

THAT IS DRAGONKIN!

NOT DRAGON BORN!
Who are generally the result of drunken night while in polymorph form. there is a long story behind that sentence

Now before somebody goes waving they whole Dragon born suggestion around, I have a suggestion. I you like that character type so much why don't YOU go make one and then RP as them.

Now, back on topic from that epic derailing:
My build for level 24 has me with 14 levels of Barbarian (I need an epic level still, I'm open to suggestion) and one level in Sorcerer to gain the Draconic Heritage perk, and the perks that come with it.

now my build is actually pretty strong by this point once you add in all those levels, I haven't done some of them yet.



Its very difficult to get large size for a reasonable cost. About the best is Half-Ogre for +2 level adjustment, he could compramise with something like half-giant (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicRaces.htm#halfGiants) to get powerful build which lets them count as large for several useful things, but I think they loose that if they become dragonborn.

Really I guess he needs to prioritise what abilities he would like his character to have so we can help him achieve as many of them as simply as possible without ending up with a character that will leave him feeling useless.


So how about Draconic Half-Giant, then? LA+2? With Level Adjustment Buyoff?

{Scrubbed}

[Jheska]

Heretically I think his best bet may actually be a dragonborn psychic warrior (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/classes/psychicWarrior.htm). The class itself gives him reasonable accuracy and feats to make him better at fighting or "tanking"

Pyschic powers to replicate the abilities he might want:
expansion (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/expansion.htm) makes you bigger when you want to be, at higher levels he'll be able to be big most of the time in fights
Claws of the Beast (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/clawsoftheBeast.htm) can let him use his claws for combat when he wants to, the power of these will scale as he does and can invest more power into them
Energy Ray (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/energyRay.htm) could perhaps be his breath weapon (almost) if he's willing to invest a feat to learn it (the class gives him several bonus feats throughout his career)

The dragonborn race covers flight and the correct appearance.

Ideally he'd get dragon wings from somewhere else and be able to pick up an actual breath weapon but I'm unsure where he could easily gain that.

[Sir_Chivalry]

Heretically I think his best bet may actually be a dragonborn psychic warrior (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/classes/psychicWarrior.htm). The class itself gives him reasonable accuracy and feats to make him better at fighting or "tanking"

Pyschic powers to replicate the abilities he might want:
expansion (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/expansion.htm) makes you bigger when you want to be, at higher levels he'll be able to be big most of the time in fights
Claws of the Beast (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/clawsoftheBeast.htm) can let him use his claws for combat when he wants to, the power of these will scale as he does and can invest more power into them
Energy Ray (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/energyRay.htm) could perhaps be his breath weapon (almost) if he's willing to invest a feat to learn it (the class gives him several bonus feats throughout his career)

The dragonborn race covers flight and the correct appearance.

Ideally he'd get dragon wings from somewhere else and be able to pick up an actual breath weapon but I'm unsure where he could easily gain that.

Now see, there's a dragonkin in a box! You've got the claws, the "breath weapon", the size, everything!

wings of flying would give him wings, but they're expensive

[Jheska]

Sorry for the double post but


{Scrubbed the post, scrub the quote.}

I'm sorry if I've come across in a way that's offensive to you, I'm trying to be helpful. I even genned a couple example characters along the lines I was suggesting before realising I wasn't sure what criteria you were building under other than wanting to play Wrex.

What I was trying to do was find you a simple way to play your character as you have experienced them in a RP sense, to properly represent each ability you expect that character to have, and still at least vaugely match other player's power levels.

I absolutely love high roleplay games, but when it does come to actual dice rolling it can get really disheartening to learn your character isn't very good at their job.

[Freelancer Jack]

I thought I Establishment I didn't want any retarded magical work around ****.

It's obvious i now have to pound this concept into your head with the 2x4 of reason.

**prepares to use royal canterlot voice.


THIS IS MY CHARACTER!!!

http://132.209.40.23/w4/campagne/images/WotC_Art_Galleries/Draconomicon/Dragonkin.jpg

Here is the Base I'm working off of. (which took forever to copy out of the book sitting in my lap)

DRAGONKIN
Large Monstrous Humanoid (Reptilian)
Hit Dice: 7d8+7 (38 hp)
Initiative: +5
Speed: 20 ft. (4 squares), fly 40 ft. (good)
Armor Class: 17 (+1 Dex, –1 size, +7
natural), touch 10, flat-footed 16
Base Attack/Grapple: +7/+15
Attack: Foreclaw +10 melee (1d6+4)
or longspear +10/+5 melee (1d10+6)
Full Attack: 2 foreclaws +10
melee (1d6+4) or longspear
+10/+5 melee (1d10+6)
Space/Reach: 10 ft./10 ft. (20 ft.
with longspear)
Special Attacks: Rake 1d6+2
Special Qualities: Darkvision
60 ft., detect magic
Saves: Fort +5, Ref +6, Will +7
Abilities: Str 19, Dex 12, Con 13, Int 10, Wis
14, Cha 13
Skills: Listen +12, Spot +12
Feats: Flyby Attack, Great Fortitude, Improved
Initiative
Environment:Warm hills
Organization: Solitary, clutch
(2–8), or squad (4–16 plus 1 human
necromancer of 7th–11th-level)
Challenge Rating: 3
Treasure: Standard coins; no goods; double items
Alignment: Usually chaotic evil
Advancement: By character class
Level Adjustment: +2
Dragonkin are humanoid creatures believed to be distant cousins of dragons. Found in wild tribes or serving human masters, their brute strength and sharp claws make them a
deadly threat.
Dragonkin are humanoids of 8 to 9 feet in height with draconic features. Their scaled hides range from dark yellow ocher to reddish brown with darker spots or bands. Their faces are decidedly dragonlike, with a long snout, a mane of thick hair, and small horns swept back behind their heads. They have green wings that lighten to gold or yellow, or sometimes wings that match the color of their bodies.
Dragonkin speak Draconic.

COMBAT
Dragonkin prefer to fight in the air, swooping down to slash earthbound opponents with their foreclaws. If forced to bring combat to the ground, dragonkin move in and use their claws or weapons (they favor longspears and other reach weapons). Most dragonkin have a strong desire to acquire magic items (perhaps inherited from their ancestors) and tend to attack characters possessing such items in preference to others. If possible, a dragonkin grabs a magic item from its opponent and flees with it, taking the item back to its cave. (Resolve this as a disarm attempt; since the dragonkin is unarmed, it
holds the item if it wins the opposed check.)
Rake (Ex): Dragonkin make two additional attacks (+10
melee) with their rear claws for 1d6+2 points of damage
each when attacking from the air.
Detect Magic (Su): Dragonkin have the innate ability to
use detect magic as a free action, once per round.

DRAGONKIN AS CHARACTERS
Most dragonkin with character classes are barbarians, and barbarian is their favored class. However, a handful of dragonkin sorcerers have been reported, and their number seems to be slowly increasing.

DRAGONKIN PLAYER CHARACTERS
Dragonkin characters possess the following racial traits.
— +8 Strength, +2 Dexterity, +2 Constitution, +4 Wisdom,
+2 Charisma. Dragonkin are powerful creatures that derive
great abilities from their ancestral tie with the dragons.
—Large size: –1 penalty to Armor Class, –1 penalty on attack
rolls, –4 penalty on Hide checks, lifting and carrying
limits twice those of Medium characters.
—A dragonkin’s base land speed is 20 feet. It has a fly
speed of 40 feet (good).
—Natural Attacks: A dragonkin is proficient
with its claw attacks, which deal 1d6
points of damage each. If it uses a claw as
a secondary weapon (along with a
weapon held in the other hand), it
takes the normal penalties for
two-weapon fighting.
When making a full attack
while airborne, a dragonkin
character may also make
two additional attacks
with its rear claws at its
full base attack bonus
(with a –5 penalty if
also attacking with a
weapon).
—Dragonkin can
use detect magic at will as a supernatural ability, as a sorcerer
whose level is equal to the dragonkin’s
HD.
—Racial Hit Dice: A dragonkin
begins with seven levels of monstrous humanoid, which provide 7d8
Hit Dice, a base attack bonus of +7, and base saving throw bonuses of Fort
+2, Ref +5, and Will +5.
—Racial Skills: A dragonkin’s monstrous
humanoid levels give it skill points equal to 10 × (2 + Int modifier). Its class skills are Spot and Listen.
—Racial Feats: A dragonkin’s monstrous humanoid levels give it three feats.
— +7 natural armor bonus.
—Automatic Languages: Draconic. Bonus Languages:
Common, Dwarf, Gnoll, Goblin, Orc.
—Favored Class: Barbarian.
—Level adjustment +2.

Any questions?

[Sir_Chivalry]

Any questions?

Yes.

You made this thread. Why?

If it was to get feedback on your character: Dragonkin is a poorly made race. The fluff can be simulated by several options previously given you. The level adjustment and racial HD (which are mandatory) make you severely weaker than a comparable character. In short, and please do actually answer this, what can a classless dragonkin do that a 9th level winged dragonborn warrior cannot? +7 natural armour, 2 claws that deal average damage, being large (the abilities, if considered in the light of being large size, mean that in comparison to a race blown up to large size somehow, you have Str +0, Dex +4 (+6 compared to Dragonborn), Con -2 (-4 compared to Dragonborn), Wis +4, Cha +2) rake and detect magic.

If it was to have help with 3.5, you continuously ignore any help or advice. You claim to have spent hours on your character, but you neglect the fact that you've forced us to as well in our vain attempt to help you.

If it was to be told you're perfect in every way and so is your sheet, welcome to the internet.

[Jheska]

Right, fair enough you're dead set on using the dragonkin race rather than any kind of workaround to replicate it. That's fair enough I guess, I just assumed you wanted to keep that because that is how you first played the character and you knew it could provide every ability the character should have. I was proposing a couple of other ways to replicate that but if you really are set on using a Dragonkin then that's absolutely fine.

As something that may help you, normally racial hit dice are fairly useless but martial classes (from a book you dont have to buy because the class I'm recommending can be found entirely online) get a benefit even from those. The class is called warblade (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20060802a&page=2), and at first glance you'll see its very similar to a barbarian. You can use the same armour and weapons, you'll have as much base attack bonus, you'll have exactly as many hitpoints and as a bonus you'll actually have a couple more skill points to enjoy.

As they level they get things called manuevers (which are explained in that same article) which are a bit like spells in that you'll know a few of them that you get to pick but mainly they're just ways to make you better at hitting people. You can read full explanations of every manuevers on the cards here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20061225a) though I appologise they're not the best organised.

You can choose level one manuevers at first level then every two class levels you can pick the next level of manuevers up. The good part is other classes count as 1/2 a level for this, so your 7 levels of dragonkin means you effectively start at level 4 in warblade for picking manuevers meaning you can start with better ones.

The best part is everything you need to build the character is available online for free.

Finnaly not to sound rude but it's against forum rules to post actual d&d rules in threads so I'm sorry you spent so much time typing that when you're not really allowed.

[Freelancer Jack]

I made it to get help building a DRAGONKIN character.

not Dragon born.

not a Pyschic Warrior.

Dragonkin.

I don;t want another race or class. I will accept help on building my Dragonkin character. I will not execpt your help if you want to tell me how to play the game.
I don't care if my build is weak, I don't care if there are better classes, I'm building a Male Dragonkin lvl 9-24 with 14 levels in barbarian and one level of sorcerer.

{Scrubbed}

[Jheska]

No idea if you caught my latest post or not but certainly in regards to your post you can throw away suggestions of psychic warrior or dragonborn as they were attempts to replicate dragonkin. As you've stated Wrex is very much a dragonkin so thats absolutely cool, this is why I pointed out warblade to you.

You can play it very much as a barbarian, its just getting even more benefit from you being a dragonkin than the standard barbarian class would have.

If despite these nice little benefits you still want to play a barbarian would you like some help with what sort of feats or items would be helpful to you?

[Gavinfoxx]

So... what will you take as your first class level? Some sort of Barbarian? Are you going to want any prestige classes? Any variants of Barbarian? Any multiclassing that helps with the Barbarian concept?

[Sir_Chivalry]

I made it to get help building a DRAGONKIN character.

not Dragon born.

not a Pyschic Warrior.

Dragonkin.

I don;t want another race or class. I will accept help on building my Dragonkin character. I will not execpt your help if you want to tell me how to play the game.
I don't care if my build is weak, I don't care if there are better classes, I'm building a Male Dragonkin lvl 9-24 with 14 levels in barbarian and one level of sorcerer.

{Scrubbed the post, scrub the quote.}

Assuming everything you've asked for is true (you want to play a tank)

1)Dragonkin HD Improved Initiative replace with Dodge
2)Dragonkin HD
3)Dragonkin HD Flyby Attackreplace with Combat Reflexes
4)Dragonkin HD
5)Dragonkin HD
6)Dragonkin HD Great Fortitude replace with Stand Still
7)Dragonkin HD
8)Dragonkin LA
9)Dragonkin LA
10)Barbarian 1
11)Barbarian 2 Karmic Strike
12)Barbarian 3
13)Barbarian 4
14)Barbarian 5 Robilar's Gambit
15)Barbarian 6
16)Barbarian 7
17)Barbarian 8 Hold the Line
18)Barbarian 9
19)Barbarian 10
20)Barbarian 11 Mage Slayer
21)Barbarian 12
22)Barbarian 13
23)Sorcerer 1 Draconic Heritage
24)Barbarian 14


Final particulars before stats added, BAB: +21 Fort: +11 Ref: +10 Will: +10

With the exception of Draconic Heritage, those make you unpassable, unstoppable.

/thread

[Mystic Muse]

Alright. If you're getting this mad over one little thread, I'm not going to DM a campaign for you. Given what you've told me of previous campaigns you've been in, I can't see that ending remotely well.

[Jheska]

Final particulars before stats added, BAB: +21 Fort: +11 Ref: +10 Will: +10

Actually your figures are off, those dont advance after 20th level (or 18th for him with his LA).

His BaB is 18 and his saves are Fort: +9 Ref: +8 Will: +8 if he takes the sorcerer level after 20th

Otherwise if he takes it before he has BaB; 17 and his saves are Fort: +9 Ref: +8 Will: +10

This is of course assuming he doesnt find he quite likes the warblade class. I remember he stating either in this thread or another he liked having powerful options he could hold in reserve, his high level manuevers could be like that.

[Gavinfoxx]

So should we at all point him towards Whirling Frenzy Lion Spirit Totem? I suppose I just did.. though only the Whirling Frenzy bit is free...

[Sir_Chivalry]

Actually your figures are off, those dont advance after 20th level (or 18th for him with his LA).

His BaB is 18 and his saves are Fort: +9 Ref: +8 Will: +8 if he takes the sorcerer level after 20th

Otherwise if he takes it before he has BaB; 17 and his saves are Fort: +9 Ref: +8 Will: +10

This is of course assuming he doesnt find he quite likes the warblade class. I remember he stating either in this thread or another he liked having powerful options he could hold in reserve, his high level manuevers could be like that.

Never could see whether it was before or after LA was factored. Thanks.

[Greenish]

It should perhaps be mentioned that In Unrelenting Favor (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=225025), the level 24 game he's applying to, is gestalt.

[Gavinfoxx]

...Oh my god....

[Mystic Muse]

It should perhaps be mentioned that In Unrelenting Favor (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=225025), the level 24 game he's applying to, is gestalt.

Oh gawds.

Jack, trust me on this, withdraw. The game is apparently already complex enough for you, don't try to go through the headache that is gestalt.

If you want to try anyway, here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/gestaltCharacters.htm#buildingAGestaltCharacter) are the gestalt rules. I advise against this as gestalt isn't really a game type that's good for new players, which given your past DMs, you qualify as.

Seriously. If you're complaining about how long it's taken to make your character now it's only going to get worse, and it's going to get much worse.

[Daftendirekt]

Yeah, if you complained about a level 9 character taking too long (even though he wouldn't actually have any LEVELS, being this dragonkin you have an unexplained and irrational obsession over), you might as well just give up DnD now. A level 24 gestalt character could take forever. Although, I suppose, if you take a 2nd class that is as simple and mindless as straight barbarian, it might not take too long.

Regardless of anything else, you're being a stubborn jackass, and I don't know why anybody is still attempting to help you out. Log off this forum, go read the entirety of 3.5 core, meditate for a week on the meaning of refluffing, and then get back to us.

[Jheska]

The depressing thing is I just finished genning him an example of what his character might look like if they were a warblade. It can be found here (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=351775). Built the whole thing only with freely available online stuff or things in the dragonomicon, matched its fighting style with what he put in the personality box.

No way in hell I'm doing his items if I dont know if he'll like the class/even play in that game.

If you are still interested I'd be happy to walk you through everything on that sheet, how it all works, where you can find eveything to read yourself and why they match up with what I've read of your character (and feel free to disagree with any of it, that's how you personalise after all)

Bear in mind however buying items for an epic level character takes quite a long time, though with your limited book selection (freely available like the d20srd and the draconomicon you own) this might be a lot easier.

The other complicated part in generating for that game are the gestalt rules, which effectively boil down to you can take two different classes at once and gain benefits from each. (for instance you can also take levels in the Dragonfire Adept (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20060912a&page=2) class to gain the ability to breath fire and other dragon related things, and its another freely available class)

I'd be happy to help you through any part of that, but remember recruitment in that thread is based on a good character idea and background, not on your sheet that you dont have to have until you are accepted.

[The Big Orc]

Have you ever played a level 1 campaign other than with your friend DM and his realism homebrew rules? If not, I would suggest throwing together a simple character: level 1 Human Fighter, or barbarian if that is the class that you are set on, and playing level 1 games until you understand (not necessarily agree with) the mechanics of D&D 3.5e as written by the books. Playing games that start at level 1 are the fastest way to learn the rules. Take it from a player that knows.

[Freelancer Jack]

Oh gawds.

Jack, trust me on this, withdraw. The game is apparently already complex enough for you, don't try to go through the headache that is gestalt.

If you want to try anyway, here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/gestaltCharacters.htm#buildingAGestaltCharacter) are the gestalt rules. I advise against this as gestalt isn't really a game type that's good for new players, which given your past DMs, you qualify as.

Seriously. If you're complaining about how long it's taken to make your character now it's only going to get worse, and it's going to get much worse.

After reading through that head ach, yeah I'm gonna go ahead and with draw.

Well at this point I actually have some reference as to who i'm going to be leveling my character now. I have base stats worked out and my default Feats feel OK. And the basic sheet I have for the level 24 build can be used as a reference for when i'm leveling up.

Now, I have my basic build that I can use to actually start modifying to the big 16 rules that people post. It has a few other things to get worked out, but not much.

[kardar233]

If you're set on playing that game, may I make a build suggestion?

So you want to stick with Dragonkin, which may not be the best but it'll work. Try this:

Phrenic Lolth-Touched Dragonkin
1. LA+1//Dungeoncrasher Fighter1
2. LA+2//Dungeoncrasher Fighter2
3. LA+3//Dungeoncrasher Fighter3
4. LA+4//Dungeoncrasher Fighter4
5. LA+5//Dungeoncrasher Fighter5
6. Monstrous Humanoid//War Hulk1
7. Monstrous Humanoid//War Hulk2
8. Monstrous Humanoid//War Hulk3
9. Monstrous Humanoid//War Hulk4
10. Monstrous Humanoid//War Hulk5
11. Monstrous Humanoid//War Hulk6
12. Monstrous Humanoid//War Hulk7
13. War Hulk8//Whirling Frenzy Spirit Lion Totem Barbarian1
14. War Hulk9//Runescarred Berserker1
15. War Hulk10//Runescarred Berserker2
16. Dungeoncrasher Fighter6//Runescarred Berserker3
17. War Mind1//Runescarred Berserker4
18. War Mind2//Runescarred Berserker5
19. War Mind3//Runescarred Berserker6
20. War Mind4//Runescarred Berserker7
21. War Mind5//Runescarred Berserker8
22. War Mind6//Runescarred Berserker9
23. War Mind7//Warblade1
24. War Mind8//Warblade2

And continue going War Mind//Warblade from there.

Damn, there's a lot of War there.

You are an expert of flying up above people and then turning them into fine pink mists. In all things not related to turning people into pink mists, you're iffy at best, but if you want something dead, it's dead.

War Mind gets you Psychic Warrior powers, which are damn nice. Good ones might be Expansion, Vampiric Blade, and Concealing Amorpha (Greater).

Runescarred Berserker is there for one thing: Antimagic field. This works best if you're not counting magic as psionics and vice versa; otherwise, swap the War Mind levels for more Warblade.

Good guides to read would be The Hood (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19872838/Little_Red_Raiding_Hood:_A_Tale_of_38;_Guide_to_th e_3.5_Dragoon) and The Circle Mower (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19871834/Circle_Mower:_Deadliest_Warrior_Without_Magic_Item s?pg=1)

[Mystic Muse]

Just something I think I should offer.

Now, I know you want to play Wrex. I'm not trying to say to do otherwise, so please bear with me here.

If you want to be able to play in any game below level 9, you simply won't be able to play Wrex as a standard Dragonkin. However, if you'd be willing to give it a shot, I know of a few different things you could do to play a character that would be very much like him from level 2 onwards as opposed to level 9, working completely within the rules.

If this doesn't appeal to you, that's fine. I'm not trying to say don't play Wrex, I'm just saying that I could help you make a character very much like him with a few differences, but you could play him starting at level 2.

All I'm trying to do is open up a few more games for you to join, so please don't take offense.

[Eldan]

Okay, look, Jack.

First of all: calm down. People here want to help you. They are spending their off-time from work or school on helping you understand the game. Getting annoyed at them won't help you.

Second: some of the people on these boards have played D&D for nearly thirty years. Please accept that they know a lot more about the game, both in terms of rules and in metagame factors than you do. If they recommend something, it is at least worth considering.

Third: remember what I said about divorcing the fluff from the rules? Please. Have a look at a few things other than the Dragonkin race. There are dozens of ways to build any D&D character you can think of. Having the half-dragon template on your sheet does not mean you actually have to play the character as a half-dragon. A half-dragon goliath or dragonic half-giant would give you rules very close to that of a dragonkin, but make you significantly stronger.

Why would it make you stronger? Because in D&D, class levels are the best thing to have. Racial hit dice are just a bit worse, and level adjustment is worst of all.

Why is that? Because racial hit dice give you nothing. They are a payment you pay for a monster race. Class levels on the other hand, give you abilities. In almost all cases in D&D, having abilities (which give you tactical options in and out of combat) is much, much better than having higher values in the various boxes on your sheet. The second thing is that having more levels in the same class is often better. Classes give better abilities at higher levels, and you want to reach those.

Your dragonkin character is nine levels behind other people. He has character abilities and tactical options as a character nine levels behind him, but slightly higher values. At level 10, he has the abilities of a level 1 barbarian, but with higher numbers.
That is not a good thing.

And your numbers might not even be that high.
If you put everything in strength, compare a dragonkin barbarian 1 to a normal half-orc barbarian 10.
You have strength 28 (18+8 racial + 2 from levels) and 32 when raging. He has strength 22 (18+2 racial + 2 from levels), 26 when raging.
Your attack bonus is +17/+12 (8 base attack bonus, 9 strength), his is +16/+11 (10 base attack bonus, 6 strength). Already, he is close. Your damage is a bit better.
But then? He has more hit points, since he has 10 hit dice and not much lower constitution. He can rage three times per day, you once. In just one level, he gains greater rage, which means he can match your damage output and attack bonus. He has improved uncanny dodge and damage reduction.
That is if he is a pure barbarian. If he is a warblade, he has level 5 maneuvers. Or he could have taken a prestige class 6 levels ago and gained a ton of abilities.


Going back to divorcing the rules from the fluff:
Your race gives you the following rules: +8 strength, +2 dex, +2 con, +4 wis, +2 cha, large size and wings. For that you "pay" nine character levels worth of abilities.
You have, ignoring the background in the book for now, a character that is strong, tough, is big and can fly, and is draconic.
See where I am going with this? There are approximately 9000 ways to build a character with those five traits. Your best bet is to build something fulfilling those five traits that is as solid as you can make it, in the rules, then just calling him a dragonkin.

Read the Half-dragon (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/halfDragon.htm) template. Please. I know your first instinct will probably be annoyance again at me telling you this, but please, give it a read. Note, as an example, this part: Str +8, Con +2, Int +2, Cha +2. It makes you almost as strong and just as tough as a dragonkin, if not as wise. It gives you claws and a bite. If you are large, which you can be, it will also give you wings. Furthermore, it actually gives you more draconic things than what a dragonkin does: it gives you the ability to breathe fire, and to be immune to it.
That is just one ability you could take. There are others.

[Freelancer Jack]

You all want me to be somthing else, so hears the templat for what I want in my character build:

Claw attack
bite attack
tail attack
ablity to fly
Breath weapon: fire
One level of sorcerer to gain the Draconic heritage perk, and the perks that come with it
Barbarain ranks for rage and other class bonuses.
a way to keep my +7 to natural armor without using any feats or abilities. (That +7 natural armor has saved my hide one to many times)
jack of all trades, blade proof skin, and toughness as feats.
A way to keep my racial stat buffs (they are extremely handy)
keeping my Langue as draconic.


Find me a build that lets me have all that and I'll look at it. The primary reason I like The dragonkin build is that I automatically get things I like and want WITHOUT spending my feat or ability slots for levels.

oh, and before I forget. The build you suggest needs to fit my backstory, as I truly do not feel like re-writing all my fan-fic that I have for this character.
(which could fill several books at this point.)
Summery:
Wrex was born into a large tribe of Dragonkin, Dragon born elves, and other Draconic halflings. His family had the last name of Snake-tail for having extremely long tails. They endured harsh winter and raided the country side in the spring, summer, and fall.
After 50 years of living in his tribe, Wrex wandered out into the world to find some adventure. He wandered into the first town he came across (that they hadn't raided) and was dragged off on a adventure with a young hotheaded group looking for fame and fortune. After a 30 or so years of traveling with these adventurers, he split off from the group and became a Freelance Mercenary.
He was a poor excuse for a mercenary though, he often worked for free or in exchange for favors. His kindhearted personality always worked against him in his line of work. He was Employed as a body guard for Mage's, Politicians, Wealthy Caravan owners, and nobles who wanted a fearsome personal body guard they could bring with them to Diplomatic meetings. Many appreciated he knowledge of the wilds and fierce loyalty.
On one job where he was being paid to protect a large caravan, they were attacked by slavers and Wrex was captured by them after staying behind so the others could escape.
After enduring 12 years as a slave, in which he was sold off to become a gladiator, he escaped during an attack on the city he was in and flew away. after that he wandered the continent, trying to find a purpose.

[Greenish]

Even dragonkin doesn't give all of that. :smallamused:

Lets see, dragonborn water orc barbarian2/totemist4/totem rager4. We toss that sorcerer, it does practically nothing anyway. We grab tail from feat, wings from dragonborn, natural attacks, natural armour and breath weapon from totemist, and have space for nice amount of barbarian progression.

[Gavinfoxx]

Please define 'blade proof skin' for us.
Please elaborate as to why you don't want to get the natural armor from obscure sources.
Please explain why you want 'draconic heritage'; do you want the skill? the saving throw bonuses? Do you want the conceptual idea of having a particular type of dragon as a parent?
Jack of all trades -- do you mean the feat? Do you mean the ability to do several roles?
Ability score bonuses -- there are several ways to increase ability scores, does it matter if they are EXACTLY the same as otherwise?

And those things you get from dragonkin? You spend NINE LEVELS to get them. I assume you are okay as long as we get those things in under nine levels? Or you get those over a few levels as your dragon blood awakens (ie, you gain class levels)?

[Freelancer Jack]

Even dragonkin doesn't give all of that. :smallamused:

Lets see, dragonborn water orc barbarian2/totemist4/totem rager4. We toss that sorcerer, it does practically nothing anyway. We grab tail from feat, wings from dragonborn, natural attacks, natural armour and breath weapon from totemist, and have space for nice amount of barbarian progression.

well, that would work. Except I want that rank of sorcerer for draconic Heritage, which has two abilities in it to boost my attack and natural armor as well as giving me an extra breath weapon.

[Eldan]

If you want to take sorcerer levels anyhow, I don't suppose you have looked into the Dragon Disciple (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/prestigeClasses/dragonDisciple.htm) class? It's not very strong, but it gives you a bit of a sorcerer boost and basically the benefits of the half-dragon template, spread out over several levels and without losing any actual class levels. It's actually quite good with a bard, and if you play a big and strong base race, it might fit.

[Greenish]

well, that would work. Except I want that rank of sorcerer for draconic Heritage, which has two abilities in it to boost my attack and natural armor as well as giving me an extra breath weapon.Which Draconic Heritage are you talking about? Because the one in Dragon Magic doesn't do anything like that.

[Eldan]

He probably means the follow-up feats that build on it. I think one gave a weak breath weapon.

[Gavinfoxx]

Yea, where are you finding Draconic Heritage that does all of that??

And if you want something kind of like what those feats which require draconic heritage do, why not just say, "I like the idea of a character that can do [x,y,z,], which I found that the feats which require draconic heritage give me. Is that the best way to get [x,y,z]?"

[Freelancer Jack]

Yea, where are you finding Draconic Heritage that does all of that??

And if you want something kind of like what those feats which require draconic heritage do, why not just say, "I like the idea of a character that can do [x,y,z,], which I found that the feats which require draconic heritage give me. Is that the best way to get [x,y,z]?"

Draconic hertage gives you a feat that lets you use spells as breath weapons. I already have one level of sorcerer, why not invest it into a few spells?

[Gavinfoxx]

...What are you talking about? Please reference the page and book you are getting this information from. It helps mildly with saving throws of an energy type associated with your dragon... which is really really really minor. What did you think it did?

Also, why do you have the level in sorcerer? For Draconic Heritage? You are throwing away a feat and a class level away from your concept to get... what exactly? What precisely are you trying to be good at? Your concept is a barbarian that happens to get breath weapons, right? How many feats down the draconic heritage line do you want to go, and why?

[Eldan]

Dragonic heritage is a group of feats.

The first feat, called just "Dragonic Heritage", does not give a breath weapon by itself. To get the breath weapon, you have to take Dragonic Heritage, and then several other feats as well.

With your character, however, I would suggest taking combat feats, instead of spending most of them on a breath weapon that will end up rather weak and consume a lot of resources. There are easier ways to get breath weapons.

[Freelancer Jack]

...What are you talking about? Please reference the page and book you are getting this information from. It helps mildly with saving throws of an energy type associated with your dragon... which is really really really minor. What did you think it did?

Also, why do you have the level in sorcerer? For Draconic Heritage? You are throwing away a feat and a class level away from your concept to get... what exactly?
Source:
(http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/lists/feats)

Draconian Breath Weapon DCS 85 You have harnessed your draconic heritage and can attack with a dragonlike breath weapon.

Draconic Breath CAr 77 You can convert your arcane spells into a breath weapon.

Draconic Claw CAr 77 You develop the natural weapons of your draconic ancestors.

Draconic Flight CAr 77 The secret of draconic flight is revealed to you, granting you the ability to fly occasionally.

Draconic Heritage CAr 77 You have greater connection with your distant draconic bloodline.

Draconic Knowledge Dr 69 You are attuned to nature and the elements and can draw on deep wells of knowledge.

Draconic Legacy CAr 78 You have realized greater arcane power through your draconic heritage.

Draconic Power CAr 78 You have greater power manipulating the energies of your heritage.

Draconic Presence CAr 78 When you use your magic, your mere presence can terrify those around you.

Draconic Resistance CAr 78 Your bloodline hardens your body against the energy type of your progenitor.

Draconic Skin CAr 78 Your skin takes on the sheen, luster, and hardness of your draconic parentage.


I'm interested in all those feats/ablities, but to get them I need one rank of sorcerer.

[Gavinfoxx]

Wait, I thought you wanted to play a barbarian?

We already had a way to get you natural weapons, flight, breath weapon, etc. without ANY of those...


What broad conceptual abilities, PRECISELY is important to you? Not how you get them, but WHAT the abilities do?

So far we have, as best as I have been able to tell...

Hearty
Durable vs melee, with various different abilities
Flying with dragon wings
lots of natural attacks
Breath Weapon
Not needing equipment to be capable in melee and durable in melee
Rage or barbarian-like options

What else -- BROADLY -- is important to you? Please stop changing the goalposts...

Now you want resistance to energy, and suddenly spells, and who knows what else? And apparently getting the actual specific TOUGHNESS feat -- regardless of the fact that it is perhaps the worst feat in the game, with several replacements written -- is important?

It sounds like every time you find something remotely to do with dragons, you say, "I want this specific narrow thing" rather than approaching the game from a broad conceptual level and using what the rules happen to be to get what you want.

[Gavinfoxx]

We can't help you. Your cup is too full. Empty your cup.

[Eldan]

Okay, here's the thing. That list? 11 feats.

Your character gets 7 feats over his entire career, not more. And as a barbarian, you want to spend them on combat abilities, not other things.

Most of the things provided here you can get much easier. Breath weapons isn't hard, half the draconic races get them. Claws and flight you probably already have. Presence and Legacy are for people casting spells all the time, not those with one sorcerer level. And resistance is something everyone eventually gets anyway.

[Daftendirekt]

We can't help you. Your cup is too full. Empty your cup.

The cup is full, the table is soaked, and there's a large puddle forming on the floor. The worst part? Nobody's rightly sure what the liquid is anymore, so many things have been poured into that cup.

[Freelancer Jack]

Wait, I thought you wanted to play a barbarian?

We already had a way to get you natural weapons, flight, breath weapon, etc. without ANY of those...


What broad conceptual abilities, PRECISELY is important to you? Not how you get them, but WHAT the abilities do?

So far we have, as best as I have been able to tell...

Hearty
Durable vs melee, with various different abilities
Flying with dragon wings
lots of natural attacks
Breath Weapon
Not needing equipment to be capable in melee and durable in melee
Rage or barbarian-like options

What else -- BROADLY -- is important to you? Please stop changing the goalposts...

Now you want resistance to energy, and suddenly spells, and who knows what else? And apparently getting the actual specific TOUGHNESS feat -- regardless of the fact that it is perhaps the worst feat in the game, with several replacements written -- is important?

It sounds like every time you find something remotely to do with dragons, you say, "I want this specific narrow thing" rather than approaching the game from a broad conceptual level and using what the rules happen to be to get what you want.

I'd be spacing them out in-between my Barbarian levels. now i'm being close minded because when I focus on a build i focus on that "ONE" build and consider all the options I have available to that ONE build.

I'm focusing on attack power, define and throwing in a dash of magic. I 'm focusing on attack power and defense first, I have found things that give me attack power and defense. Now i'm focusing on some magic.
What if I face an enemy and that can beat me in those two areas? I'd need some magic on the side to level the playing field.

Now if you guys really, Really, REALLY, Want to make a character that I can use from lvl 1 and up, I'll remake my half elf spellsword/bard Jacob.
He will be easy to remake. hopefully.

[Gavinfoxx]

So you'd be going sorcerer/barbarian/sorcerer/barbarian?

That is... a fantastically bad idea.

Again, you seem to be focusing on thinking you have any idea whatsoever how to accomplish a desired goal in this system, and you really really haven't shown any basic proficiency at this. So instead of telling us your plans, you should tell us your goal and we can help with that.

If you want to make a spellcasting, dragon-flavored, rage-y character, that's fine... but you have to tell us FIRST, rather than telling us you want something else and THEN saying, 'oh, I want him to cast spells too' after we are trying to help you with what you actually said you want to do.

Uhm. How old are you? And is English your first language?

Remember, to be able to cast spells while raging, you will need an item from an obscure Dungeon Magazine (dungeon magazine 126) ... otherwise, it doesn't work.

http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=8786.0

That's a handbook for arcane/melee character builds, you should take a look at it.

Remember, quit changing the goalposts! Work on defining exactly what you want, not by HOW you want to do it, but by WHAT you want to achieve! Remember that you have shown absolutely no idea whatsoever how this game actually works thus far, and realize that you are getting LOTS of things factually incorrect. So just take a step back from rules -- ANY RULES -- and just describe the sorts of things you see your character doing.

[Greenish]

Remember, to be able to cast spells while raging, you will need an item from an obscure Dungeon MagazineOr two levels in Rage Mage.

[Freelancer Jack]

Well i'm glad somebody finally asked what "I" wanted.

I want to be the primary tank of a small to medium sized party of adventures. My primary task would be to take the blunt of the damage while haveing my companions take on the other enemies I am not fighting.

How ever, knowing that I may not be able to fill that role in the party, i may have to lean into a more arcane branch somewhere down the line and let somebody else become the main tank while I start leaning into a more arcane realm of combat as a spell sword.

OR I may indeed stay the primary tank in the group, in that case I wouldn't take any spells at all and focus purely on my Barbarian ranks until I had gained all of them, then take some ranks in a prestige classes.

See I don't want arcane rank for the Barbarian build, I want them for later, if I'm no longer in the role of tank in the party and need a fall back.

So now please calm yourself down, I am merely considering all of my options.

[SexyPlantLover]

so several days after the first post i come back...

1. you once created a dragonkin character named wrex.
2. you created him for a specific game (with houserules), with the help the the dm.
3. you've been roleplaying him by the book's fluff.
4. you want to play wrex in other games, so need to rebuild him by the standard rules, but want to match his existing history and make sure he can survive in his tank role or evolve in future levels.
5. you have only the draconomicon and the free online materials to use for the standard build.

is all this correct?

[Grey Watcher]

Red Watcher: It seems that, due to some communication problems, tempers might be running a little high in this thread. Let's all make an effort to keep a level head and discuss things calmly.

[Freelancer Jack]

Or two levels in Rage Mage.


so several days after the first post i come back...

1. you once created a dragonkin character named wrex.
2. you created him for a specific game (with houserules), with the help the the dm.
3. you've been roleplaying him by the book's fluff.
4. you want to play wrex in other games, so need to rebuild him by the standard rules, but want to match his existing history and make sure he can survive in his tank role or evolve in future levels.
5. you have only the draconomicon and the free online materials to use for the standard build.

is all this correct?

Yes to all of those. That is all correct.


Red Watcher: It seems that, due to some communication problems, tempers might be running a little high in this thread. Let's all make an effort to keep a level head and discuss things calmly.

Agreed, we have all gotten a little to emotional over A GAME.

I love that so many people want to help me. I have never entered a community as nice as this one and gotten all this support.

But I'm just a confused new guy, forgive me if i am insanely ignorant of your world, it's not because i'm trying to anger you, i'm just very, very confused.

[Gavinfoxx]

FYI.... Tanking in D&D? Is actually profoundly hard, on a conceptual level.

This is for several reasons:

1.) 'Tank' classes are often LESS able to take a hit than the classes they are supposed to protect
2.) There are very few mechanics that can force monsters to target a 'tough' character over the squishier characters, and those that DO allow you to do that, tend to suck
3.) Monsters ability to damage characters outpaces the ability of those characters to take the damage
4.) The ways that tanking actually happens tend to be where melee characters apply status effects that are their own little bit of battlefield control, like ways a character with a reach weapon can stop the mobility of enemies and/or trip them and/or lock them down, so they can't effectively target anyone
5.) Of course, spellcasters can be great tanks, by casting transmutation spells on them and their familiars, by summoning, by using spells for high quality defensive buffs, etc. etc. So in several cases, traditional 'tanks' aren't actually needed.


Now, if you want to tank, you are going to need a reach weapon. That will basically invalidate your focus on getting lots and lots of natural weapons to use all at once.

Which is more important to you? Fighting with a reach weapon so you can tank effectively, or fighting with lots and lots of natural weapons so you do your dragon flavor thing?

[Greenish]

Multiclassing in 3.5 isn't really conductive to starting as a beatstick and trying to make a transition to casting later. You're, say, dragonkin 9/barbarian 3, then decide some sorcery might be fun, take a level of sorcerer… and cast as a 1st level sorcerer at level 13. As in, your magic would have been appropriate, on 1st level. Now it's just a joke.

[onemorelurker]

I want to be the primary tank of a small to medium sized party of adventures. My primary task would be to take the blunt of the damage while haveing my companions take on the other enemies I am not fighting.

How ever, knowing that I may not be able to fill that role in the party, i may have to lean into a more arcane branch somewhere down the line and let somebody else become the main tank while I start leaning into a more arcane realm of combat as a spell sword.

OR I may indeed stay the primary tank in the group, in that case I wouldn't take any spells at all and focus purely on my Barbarian ranks until I had gained all of them, then take some ranks in a prestige classes.

See I don't want arcane rank for the Barbarian build, I want them for later, if I'm no longer in the role of tank in the party and need a fall back.


You didn't mention anything about being dragon-y. How important is that aspect of the character to you, and assuming that it is important, what draconic traits (flight, breath, natural weapons, natural armor, etc) are you most concerned with acquiring? Which ones are you less concerned with?


Multiclassing in 3.5 isn't really conductive to starting as a beatstick and trying to make a transition to casting later. You're, say, dragonkin 9/barbarian 3, then decide some sorcery might be fun, take a level of sorcerer… and cast as a 1st level sorcerer at level 13. As in, your magic would have been appropriate, on 1st level. Now it's just a joke.

Greenish is right. Playing as any kind of hybrid character (which a spellcaster/tank would be) requires careful planning. Would you be amenable to working up 2 builds, a full-on tank and a tank/spellcaster gish? Then when you join a party, you can ask what the other folks would find more useful and work from that build.

[SexyPlantLover]

@freelancer jack: well, i get that. i clicked your title because i did a similar thing with a dragonkin character.
but I created it, like you, for a very specific, more high-powered than usual, game. we were allowed 3 books beside the player's handbook to balance our characters. i was given 5-7 to get that fluff's flavor and power to match a bard and a grappler...meaning my character was low-powered in a standard game.
give me a moment, and i'll post that build to give you ideas.

the long and short though, i don't think you can get exactly what you want. most people will think your idea is mechanically weak, or overly complicated, and it is (but it's not a bad idea). i'm glad you are defining exactly what you want "standard wrex" to do so we can create/find him!

[Freelancer Jack]

Keeping my character is fairly important to me, but I guess i'm going to have to stick to being a tank and nothing else.

so lets start from the top:

I want to keep my draconic apperence while also taking my barbarian levels. my natural attacks are important because on multiple occasions I have used them to save my butt while unarmed and surprised (usually when an Assassin attempts to murder me and the rest of the party in the middle of the night)

[Gavinfoxx]

Okay. Just...FYI. You do know that by level 5 or so, the Wizard can make the party completely immune to being assassinated at night?

He just needs a lesser rod of extend spell, and to always prepare a single casting of Rope Trick. An extended Rope Trick, at that point, then gets the entire party 10 hours of complete invulnerability to basically everything.

[Freelancer Jack]

Okay. Just...FYI. You do know that by level 5 or so, the Wizard can make the party completely immune to being assassinated at night?

He just needs a lesser rod of extend spell, and to always prepare a single casting of Rope Trick. An extended Rope Trick, at that point, then gets the entire party 10 hours of complete invulnerability to basically everything.

Our mage (Murry) is not focused on the well being of the party. He refuses to actually use those items on any tent but his own.
Thankfully our paladin (Issac) has something That always alerts him to attempts on his life. (It's an item of some kind, can't remember the name off the top of my head.

I just slap a rune of the inside of the flap of my tent that alerts me if it's broken, really simple trick actually. (not sure if this is a cannon DnD item through)

[Gavinfoxx]

I mean...

with this:

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/ropeTrick.htm

and this

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/rods.htm#metamagicExtend

No one ever has to use tents ever past level 5.

What happens is that one rope trick is made each night, and everyone climbs into the rope trick, and pulls the rope up behind them, and then they all sleep safe and secure in their own dimensional pocket away from basically anything that could ever harm or detect them ever.

One second level spell slot and a 3000 gp item so that no one has to worry about nighttime assassinations ever again? You can't even plane shift into a rope trick!

[Freelancer Jack]

I mean...

with this:

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/ropeTrick.htm

and this

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/rods.htm#metamagicExtend

No one ever has to use tents ever past level 5.

What happens is that one rope trick is made each night, and everyone climbs into the rope trick, and pulls the rope up behind them, and then they all sleep safe and secure in their own dimensional pocket away from basically anything that could ever harm or detect them ever.

One second level spell slot and a 3000 gp item so that no one has to worry about nighttime assassinations ever again? You can't even plane shift into a rope trick!

Yeah, Murry does that to the area he's sleeping in. He always does it and it pisses us all off.

[Gavinfoxx]

It isn't something that's done to an area. It's something that's done to a rope and a segment of dimensional space... A rope that everyone can climb up and then pull away... a rope that MULTIPLE people can climb up. Are you thinking of an Alarm spell? A Tiny Hut spell? Something else?? When he is asleep, is there an actual tent or building of his of his that you can see, or has he left the plane entirely? Why don't you just climb in the building / into the area of the rope trick, despite his protestations?

You seem to be thinking that he is casting a spell that has something to do with an area or a tent or something??? I'm talking about something that means no one ever has to use tents ever again...? So no reason to get the tents out at all, then...? And he doesn't need to expend MORE resources to make it big enough for a bunch of people, it already automatically holds eight creatures of any size!

Rope trick isn't (Dismissible), so as long as you climb up before he pulls the rope up, you're good!

[Freelancer Jack]

It isn't something that's done to an area. It's something that's done to a rope and a segment of dimensional space... A rope that everyone can climb up and then pull away... a rope that MULTIPLE people can climb up. Are you thinking of an Alarm spell? A Tiny Hut spell? Something else?? When he is asleep, is there an actual tent or building of his of his that you can see, or has he left the plane entirely? Why don't you just climb in the building / into the area of the rope trick, despite his protestations?

You seem to be thinking that he is casting a spell that has something to do with an area or a tent or something??? I'm talking about something that means no one ever has to use tents ever again...? So no reason to get the tents out at all, then...? And he doesn't need to expend MORE resources to make it big enough for a bunch of people, it already automatically holds eight creatures of any size!

Rope trick isn't (Dismissible), so as long as you climb up before he pulls the rope up, you're good!

Yeah we never get a hold of the rope before he gets away. He's a sneaky little dwarf.

And now as a funny side note:
you remember how I said earlier that With the Draconic breath perk you could cast spells as breath weapons. What if you did that with "cone of force"?
:smallbiggrin:

[Gavinfoxx]

Are you sure rules are being followed in that spell? Just tie/anchor the rope as he is climbing up the rope... so he can't pull it up until you are good and ready...

[Freelancer Jack]

Are you sure rules are being followed in that spell? Just tie/anchor the rope as he is climbing up the rope... so he can't pull it up until you are good and ready...

He pulls it up after himself as he's climbing. We are completely pissed of the DM doesn't call him out for doing it.

[SexyPlantLover]

my build (it grew organically and did everything I wanted, difficult to damage, does good damage, lots of tricks for any combat)
Dragonkin monk 3/paladin 2/dragonfire adept 1/dragonblood sorc 1/dragonheart mage 1
(and some notes: 3 man-group in an icy campaign as bounty hunters, and my job was to kill things before they could reach the satyr bard buffing me and/or charming or the something-taur grappler who’d grab the mark. we used some varient on stat rolling to get higher than standard. we each chose a race with + 2 level adjustment (and ignored the penalty since we were equal) and any number of hit die (we gained the bonuses/penalties of the race but ignored any based on HD, i.e. BAB or skills). In a standard game this character would be ecl 17, not the 8 we considered it, changing the hit points, attack, skills, feats, ect.

Karma
Female Middle-Aged Dragonkin
Monk 2 (Substitute Monk of the Undying Way, Unearthed Arcana/SRD, with Draconic Fist, Dragon Magic pq13, with Prayerful Meditation, Com. Champ p48) / Paladin 1 / Monk 1/ Dragonfire Adept 1(Dragon Magic p26) / Sorcerer 1 (Substitute Dragonblood Sorc, Races of the Dragon p107) / Dragonheart Mage 1 (Races of the Dragon p88)
Large Monsterous Humanoid
Stats: STR 19 (21 enlarged), DEX 15 (13 enlarged), CON 20, INT 12, WIS 20, CHA 24
Hit Points: 8+3d8+2d10+2d4+con(40)+1(feat) = 78
Initiative: +2
Speed: 30ft, 50ft fly (good)
Armor Class: 27 (10 + 1 armor + 2 Dex – 1 Size + 7 Natural + 1 Deflection + 5 Wis + 1 monk + 1 if using defending weapon quality) Touch: 18 Flat-footed: 22 Special: 29 (after spells: with enlarge – 2, with shield +4, net +2)
Damage Reduction: 1/- up to 10 hits per day (least iron ward crystal on armor)
Base Attack/Grapple: +8/ I didn’t care about grapple
Melee Attack: options: 2 claws 1d6+1, 2 rear claws 1d6+1 (when flying), unarmed 3d6+1 (as lvl 14 monk), +1 Naginata 2d8+1. Can flurry. Can add electricity damage.
Breath Weapon: 15ft cone or 30ft line, 2d6 fire, DC 16 (Dragonfire Adept, at will, standard action)
Or: 30ft cone, 3d6 cold or fire, or 60ft line, 3d6 acid or elec, DC 18 (Dragonheart mage, burn spell, standard action)
My Usual Full Attack: already flying, swift cast enlarge person, attack with Naginata + 10 (not using defensive quality) 3d8+ 6 damage, attack with 2 claws + 5/+5 1d8+6 each, attack with 2 rear claws +5/+5 1d8+6 each, max damage 86 per round and potentally +5 smite, + 1d6 elec.
Space/Reach: 10ft/15ft, enlarged 15ft/20ft
Saves: Fort +21, Reflex +12, Will +23, +2 vs spells and effects from chaotic or evil creatures, +2 vs paralysis or sleep
Abilities: detect magic @ will, darkvision 60ft, Dragonic Fist monk substitution, flurry, evasion, prayerful meditation monk substitution, detect evil @ will, smite evil, divine grace, arcane insight
Feats: 1-Combat Reflexes, Monk 1- Improved Unarmed Strike, Monk 2-Endurance, 3-Ascetic Knight, 6-Superior Unarmed Strike, Adept 1-Dragontouched, Sorc 1- Draconic Heritage
Languages Spoken: Dragonic, Common
Noteworthy Possessions: Blood Claw Choker (MIC 203), Cloak of Resist +2, Amulet of Mighty Fists +1, Bracers of Armor +1, Least Iron Ward Crystal, Arcanist Gloves (MIC 72), ring of sustance, ring of deflect +1, Belt of Healing (MIC 110), Dragon Spirit Cinture (MIC 95), Anklet of Translocation + Boots of Landing (MIC 71/?), Lesser metamagic rod of extend, Ioun Stone +2 Cha, Wand of Reduce Person, Bag of Holding
Sorc - Spells known: 4/2, 0-didn’t care, 1- Shield, Enlarge Person (spells per day): 5/3
Adept – Invocations known: Dragonic Knowledge

[Eldan]

Okay. What you are looking for is, I think, a so-called Gish character. Someone that uses magic to help his combat ability.

There are a few classes that help this approach. Sadly for you, there are few that are in the sources you have, and even fewer that work well with rage.

Here, however, is a thing that might help you: The Guide to Free D&D (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=1109.0). It is a collection of prestige classes, feats, creatures, spells and so on that Wizards of the Coast posted online for free, as previews for their books.

There are a few classes on there that mix close combat with spellcasting:
The Raumathari Battlemage (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20030413c), which can cast spells through their swords.
The Rage Mage (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20031116a&page=7), which can cast spells while raging.
The (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/prestigeClasses/eldritchKnight.htm) Eldritch Knight, from the SRD, which is basically a fighter also advancing spellcasting. Definitely the worst of these, but might help.

My suggestion for a build, if you want to keep being barbaric, would be something like:
Barbarian 1/Sorcerer 4/Rage Mage 2/Raumathari Battlemage X. You will be a pretty good sorcerer with this build, and not a bad fighter either. Take the Extra Rage feat, to be able to rage more often, and a few Draconic Heritage feats, if you want them. Power Attack and a few other standard combat spells as well.
Your battle tactic would be, basically, to cast a few spells on yourself that make you better in combat before combat starts, such as Shield, Mage Armour, Bull's Strength (these are low-level examples), then start battle by raging and casting invocation spells through your sword.
It's not a very strong build, but I'm guessing it's a competent one, thanks to having sorcerer casting and a good attack bonus.

Then, for your race, we have the problem of large size and wings. You can get both, but this will drain a lot of your levels on something like Half-Ogre half-dragon, or half-dragon ogre. You are looking at anywhere between 4 and 8 levels, probably. If you can live with either wings or large-ish size, it becomes easier.

If you aren't too attached to the large size itself, you could take the Raptoran (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20050106b&page=1) race, and the half-dragon template. You'll gain good stat bonuses, a breath weapon, total immunity to fire, claws, a bite attack and wings.

If you want to be large, there's the Half-Giant, which isn't large, but has powerful build, which makes him count as large for some things, and has the same stomp attack as your boots of stomping, but inborn instead of through an item. I can't think of any other wlel-playable large races in your source materials, sadly.

[Freelancer Jack]

my build (it grew organically and did everything I wanted, difficult to damage, does good damage, lots of tricks for any combat)
Dragonkin monk 3/paladin 2/dragonfire adept 1/dragonblood sorc 1/dragonheart mage 1
(and some notes: 3 man-group in an icy campaign as bounty hunters, and my job was to kill things before they could reach the satyr bard buffing me and/or charming or the something-taur grappler who’d grab the mark. we used some varient on stat rolling to get higher than standard. we each chose a race with + 2 level adjustment (and ignored the penalty since we were equal) and any number of hit die (we gained the bonuses/penalties of the race but ignored any based on HD, i.e. BAB or skills). In a standard game this character would be ecl 17, not the 8 we considered it, changing the hit points, attack, skills, feats, ect.

Karma
Female Middle-Aged Dragonkin
Monk 2 (Substitute Monk of the Undying Way, Unearthed Arcana/SRD, with Draconic Fist, Dragon Magic pq13, with Prayerful Meditation, Com. Champ p48) / Paladin 1 / Monk 1/ Dragonfire Adept 1(Dragon Magic p26) / Sorcerer 1 (Substitute Dragonblood Sorc, Races of the Dragon p107) / Dragonheart Mage 1 (Races of the Dragon p88)
Large Monsterous Humanoid
Stats: STR 19 (21 enlarged), DEX 15 (13 enlarged), CON 20, INT 12, WIS 20, CHA 24
Hit Points: 8+3d8+2d10+2d4+con(40)+1(feat) = 78
Initiative: +2
Speed: 30ft, 50ft fly (good)
Armor Class: 27 (10 + 1 armor + 2 Dex – 1 Size + 7 Natural + 1 Deflection + 5 Wis + 1 monk + 1 if using defending weapon quality) Touch: 18 Flat-footed: 22 Special: 29 (after spells: with enlarge – 2, with shield +4, net +2)
Damage Reduction: 1/- up to 10 hits per day (least iron ward crystal on armor)
Base Attack/Grapple: +8/ I didn’t care about grapple
Melee Attack: options: 2 claws 1d6+1, 2 rear claws 1d6+1 (when flying), unarmed 3d6+1 (as lvl 14 monk), +1 Naginata 2d8+1. Can flurry. Can add electricity damage.
Breath Weapon: 15ft cone or 30ft line, 2d6 fire, DC 16 (Dragonfire Adept, at will, standard action)
Or: 30ft cone, 3d6 cold or fire, or 60ft line, 3d6 acid or elec, DC 18 (Dragonheart mage, burn spell, standard action)
My Usual Full Attack: already flying, swift cast enlarge person, attack with Naginata + 10 (not using defensive quality) 3d8+ 6 damage, attack with 2 claws + 5/+5 1d8+6 each, attack with 2 rear claws +5/+5 1d8+6 each, max damage 86 per round and potentally +5 smite, + 1d6 elec.
Space/Reach: 10ft/15ft, enlarged 15ft/20ft
Saves: Fort +21, Reflex +12, Will +23, +2 vs spells and effects from chaotic or evil creatures, +2 vs paralysis or sleep
Abilities: detect magic @ will, darkvision 60ft, Dragonic Fist monk substitution, flurry, evasion, prayerful meditation monk substitution, detect evil @ will, smite evil, divine grace, arcane insight
Feats: 1-Combat Reflexes, Monk 1- Improved Unarmed Strike, Monk 2-Endurance, 3-Ascetic Knight, 6-Superior Unarmed Strike, Adept 1-Dragontouched, Sorc 1- Draconic Heritage
Languages Spoken: Dragonic, Common
Noteworthy Possessions: Blood Claw Choker (MIC 203), Cloak of Resist +2, Amulet of Mighty Fists +1, Bracers of Armor +1, Least Iron Ward Crystal, Arcanist Gloves (MIC 72), ring of sustance, ring of deflect +1, Belt of Healing (MIC 110), Dragon Spirit Cinture (MIC 95), Anklet of Translocation + Boots of Landing (MIC 71/?), Lesser metamagic rod of extend, Ioun Stone +2 Cha, Wand of Reduce Person, Bag of Holding
Sorc - Spells known: 4/2, 0-didn’t care, 1- Shield, Enlarge Person (spells per day): 5/3
Adept – Invocations known: Dragonic Knowledge


Holy hell. You could have smacked Wrex around If he was scaled up to the same level with my barbarian build. The same level at which I killed an Orc war chieften.

And Mage rage is a perk I always grab, so useful to be able to breath fire while i'm in rage mode, grappled opponents become much easier to defeat with the sudden removal of their face at point blank range.

[The Glyphstone]

Why is Murray still alive in the party if he's refusing to be a team player, and the entire rest of the party is annoyed with him? I presume you have a cleric or healer, and beatsticks...spend a fight or two not being team players back - give the enemies a clear charge line to Murray, and have the Cleric not heal him. After one or two combats like this, he'll either be dead or not so much of a jerk.

[Daftendirekt]

my build (it grew organically and did everything I wanted, difficult to damage, does good damage, lots of tricks for any combat)
Dragonkin monk 3/paladin 2/dragonfire adept 1/dragonblood sorc 1/dragonheart mage 1


Holy hell. You could have smacked Wrex around If he was scaled up to the same level with my barbarian build. The same level at which I killed an Orc war chieften.
Jack, I have to point out... that is one of the least optimized builds I have ever seen. That is not GOOD. People here are trying to make your character GOOD.


He pulls it up after himself as he's climbing.

Also, that doesn't seem physically possible. As soon as he casts the spell, somebody grab the rope. Simple as that. If he (or the DM, god forbid) says you can't, punch them because they are both a douche and incorrect.

[Weezer]

Re: Rope Trick

Sounds like the wizard is being an ass and the DM is happy to let him be one. I'd recommend that you talk to him OOC and remind him that if he isn't willing to help the party when it costs him nothing at all, why should you help him when you need to spend some of your resources to do so?

Re: Build

I think that, so long as you haven't managed access to more books than you mentioned at the start, Eldan's build with a Dragonborn Raptoran will be your best bet, it will get you everything you wanted, except for large size and being a sorcerer you can always cast enlarge person on yourself. Just fill up with self-buffs, rage and go to town. Don't use sexyplantlover's build, it's really, really bad.

[Freelancer Jack]

Re: Rope Trick

Sounds like the wizard is being an ass and the DM is happy to let him be one. I'd recommend that you talk to him OOC and remind him that if he isn't willing to help the party when it costs him nothing at all, why should you help him when you need to spend some of your resources to do so?

Re: Build

I think that, so long as you haven't managed access to more books than you mentioned at the start, Eldan's build with a Dragonborn Raptoran will be your best bet, it will get you everything you wanted, except for large size and being a sorcerer you can always cast enlarge person on yourself. Just fill up with self-buffs, rage and go to town. Don't use sexyplantlover's build, it's really, really bad.

Yeah on the subject of him exploiting rope trick:
this is one of the people I play DnD with IRL. so OOC equals getting up from the table and yelling at each other in the dorm room hall way. We try to avoid that as the guy that plays our Thief/assassin (travis) will look at our sheets and discover things we're keeping secret from the rest of the party. This will result in a fight, resulting in everybody getting involved, resulting in the end of game night when the RA's show up to investigate the noise.

on the build:
yeah so I've been told. But I just remembered one of the things we used once or twice to level the playing field in my favor. I used some kind of feat that allowed me to render all magic inert when it was used against me. As in no magic (hostile or otherwise) worked on me and allowed me to plow through magical defense, fireballs, destruction spells, and any other magical attack like they were doing nothing but throwing harsh words at me.
However, the drawback to this perk meant I couldn't get my skills magically buffed by allies, nor could I be healed by magical means. I stopped taking it because if I got killed they'd be unable to resurrect me. The reward was less then the payoff.

As for the Half-draconic Raptoran.
I'll be very honest I did indeed read through all of it and consider it carefully, then read the fluff about them and {{scrubbed}} I am not being a Harpy. I have played a Dragon, a vampric lich elf, a insane barb who abused the Spectral copies spell, a gaint ball of slime, a flesh golem, and a half snake thing with six arms.

I draw a line somewhere. up to this point I have been trying to think of a way to rework my personal fluff to make a new half dragon build work, most of the ideas you've suggested fit well in the category of my "Tribal group of Dragonkin, Dragon born, and Draconic half breeds" back story. But that, that one doesn't work on so many levels it's not even funny.

Now here are some cross breeding things that I have been considering for my build:

Brass dragon (BD) + elf: possible, through i'd need to find a way to work in how 75% of Wrex's DNA is dragon.

BD + Dragonkin: Possible, but still have the class problems of starting at level 9.

BD dragonborn elf + Dragonkin: maybe, fluff wise it works but then there are all the stats from both classes I need to consider.

BD dragonborn + BD: this would make sense genetics wise, but i'm not sure how the stats would look in Dnd

BD dragonborn elf + half-Dragonkin elf: That may work. would just need to figure out the stats for it, then build from there.

Now would any of the things I just listed work?



Why is Murray still alive in the party if he's refusing to be a team player, and the entire rest of the party is annoyed with him? I presume you have a cleric or healer, and beatsticks...spend a fight or two not being team players back - give the enemies a clear charge line to Murray, and have the Cleric not heal him. After one or two combats like this, he'll either be dead or not so much of a jerk.
Because no one else in our IRL group wants to play a mage. Here's the group dynamic:

Me: usually in the role of secondary tank while the others engage the enemies I didn't have enough limbs to hit. Usually primary attack support for the primary tank in the party as my build is much weaker.

Issac: Plays a Paladin, the kind of paladin who's lawful good so much he has a pole up his ass. He is usually the groups moral compass and healer. He is often fallen by the end of the campaign, or has redeemed himself and regained his levels.

Murry: always plays a dwarf who is a battle mage. Always finds the perfect items, feats, abilities, and logic twisting exploits to over power himself to such a degree that it pisses the rest of us off. He sinks all his levels into NOTHING but offensive spells.

Tank (that's his nickname): Primary tank, plays an orc, same build as me class wise. enemies are humans, undead, death knights, and paladins. likes to hit things with his ax/hammer hybrid thing (unsure what it's really called). not much else to say about him.

Travis: our thief and assassin Player. Travis is the guy we use for stealth missions, or when we need to take out a political opposition baring our progress. has the lowest health in the group, dies the most, has the highest attack of anybody in the group (before you add in all the damage multipliers from his sneak attacks).

Brandon (wolf): only person in the group who plays a female character. usually a druid/bard. Is primarily kept around for his superior ability to resurrect us without us having to spend massive amounts of money and the fact that he can reattach limbs that fall off of us. Mainly the one who handles all the bartering and diplomacy, as the rest of us generally solve problems by punching, stabbing, smashing, or casting spells at until it is no longer a problem. is the only one in the group who can buff our stats magically and erect wards to defend us.

That is my table top IRL DnD group, our DM is a guy named Chris who is a fantastic story teller and has a great mind for weaving plots and epic campaigns for us to play. He's also a awful human being whom we all despise on principle.

[Eldan]

{{scrubbed}}

I personally find it a bit insulting when I type out several pages of responses to you and you proceed to ignore everything I said and threaten me with violence. I think I'm done helping you.

[Weezer]

Yeah on the subject of him exploiting rope trick:
this is one of the people I play DnD with IRL. so OOC equals getting up from the table and yelling at each other in the dorm room hall way. We try to avoid that as the guy that plays our Thief/assassin (travis) will look at our sheets and discover things we're keeping secret from the rest of the party. This will result in a fight, resulting in everybody getting involved, resulting in the end of game night when the RA's show up to investigate the noise.

on the build:
yeah so I've been told. But I just remembered one of the things we used once or twice to level the playing field in my favor. I used some kind of feat that allowed me to render all magic inert when it was used against me. As in no magic (hostile or otherwise) worked on me and allowed me to plow through magical defense, fireballs, destruction spells, and any other magical attack like they were doing nothing but throwing harsh words at me.
However, the drawback to this perk meant I couldn't get my skills magically buffed by allies, nor could I be healed by magical means. I stopped taking it because if I got killed they'd be unable to resurrect me. The reward was less then the payoff.

As for the Half-draconic Raptoran.
I'll be very honest I did indeed read through all of it and consider it carefully, then read the fluff about them and {{scrubbed}}. I am not being a Harpy. I have played a Dragon, a vampric lich elf, a insane barb who abused the Spectral copies spell, a gaint ball of slime, a flesh golem, and a half snake thing with six arms.

I draw a line somewhere. up to this point I have been trying to think of a way to rework my personal fluff to make a new half dragon build work, most of the ideas you've suggested fit well in the category of my "Tribal group of Dragonkin, Dragon born, and Draconic half breeds" back story. But that, that one doesn't work on so many levels it's not even funny.

Now here are some cross breeding things that I have been considering for my build:

Brass dragon (BD) + elf: possible, through i'd need to find a way to work in how 75% of Wrex's DNA is dragon.

BD + Dragonkin: Possible, but still have the class problems of starting at level 9.

BD dragonborn elf + Dragonkin: maybe, fluff wise it works but then there are all the stats from both classes I need to consider.

BD dragonborn + BD: this would make sense genetics wise, but i'm not sure how the stats would look in Dnd

BD dragonborn elf + half-Dragonkin elf: That may work. would just need to figure out the stats for it, then build from there.

Now would any of the things I just listed work?

Well, it seems like your group has a number of problems with it, nothing we can help with it seems. Though honestly why you still play with a group like that is a pure mystery to me. I'd have buggered off long before.


The thing is that you don't have to be a draconic harpy. At all. What you write down in the "race" section of your sheet has no effect on your character beyond the mechanical effects detailed by the race. You can say that your genetics are whatever you want, you can look like whatever you want. You don't have to have any hint of bird in your character, despite the name of the race being "half-dragon Raptoran". The only thing that cannot be changed at will is mechanics, everything else is completely mutable. You're playing a game where you sit around a table and pretend to slay (and be) dragons, is it that much of a stretch for your character to look like and act like what you say it does? Just change the fluff.

If you're really set against raptoran, and don't want to change the fluff, dragonborn anything should be fine.

[The Big Orc]

Ok, cross breeding is fluff. You're choice of how you are 75% dragon does not matter to what race you choose. Brass Dragon + elf is (using core rules) a Half-Dragon Elf. This gives you the following

Medium size creature
30ft movement speed
+4 natural armor
2 claw attacks (1d4 each) and a bite attack (1d6)
Breath Weapon once per day, deals 6d8 damage, reflex DC 10+con modifier for half damage, 60ft line of fire
Dark Vision 60ft
Low Light Vision
immune to sleep, paralysis and fire
+8 str +2 dex +2 int +2 cha
+2 on saving throws against enchantments
Weapon proficiency Longsword rapier longbow and shortbow
+2 listen search spot
LA +3

Now then, to address one of the lists that you wrote of stuff that is important to you:

Claw attack
bite attack
tail attack
ablity to fly
Breath weapon: fire
One level of sorcerer to gain the Draconic heritage perk, and the perks that come with it
Barbarain ranks for rage and other class bonuses.
a way to keep my +7 to natural armor without using any feats or abilities. (That +7 natural armor has saved my hide one to many times)
jack of all trades, blade proof skin, and toughness as feats.
A way to keep my racial stat buffs (they are extremely handy)
keeping my Langue as draconic.

Claws: check
Bite: check
Tail: sorry
Flight: purchase Boots, Winged for 16000gp. This effectively allows you to fly for 15 minutes a day. Or get someone to cast the fly spell on you every time you need to fly (lasts 1 minute per casters level, level 3 spell)
Breath Weapon: check
Level of Sorcerer: go ahead
Levels of Barbarian: go ahead
+7 natural armor: You get 3 so purchase an amulet of natural armor +3 for 32000gp or wear magical armor and fluff it as natural armor
Feats: go ahead
Racial stat buffs: I dont know what you had before, but you get pretty good ones here
Draconic as language: take it as a bonus language

The only thing you are missing is your tail attack, your ability to fly isnt permanent and you have to purchase some magical items which might be a bit costly

Then as fluff you say one of your grandparents was an elf, the other three were brass dragons. And that is how you are 75% dragon.

If you want to be able to fly permanently, someone posted something for half-ogre: half-dragons that are large get wings and can fly at twice there base land speed

[Freelancer Jack]

*sigh*

Jack, did you reed anything I ever wrote on this thread? Really?

I personally find it a bit insulting when I type out several pages of responses to you and you proceed to ignore everything I said and threaten me with violence. I think I'm done helping you.

I read everything everybody puts in here.


Well, it seems like your group has a number of problems with it, nothing we can help with it seems. Though honestly why you still play with a group like that is a pure mystery to me. I'd have buggered off long before.


The thing is that you don't have to be a draconic harpy. At all. What you write down in the "race" section of your sheet has no effect on your character beyond the mechanical effects detailed by the race. You can say that your genetics are whatever you want, you can look like whatever you want. You don't have to have any hint of bird in your character, despite the name of the race being "half-dragon Raptoran". The only thing that cannot be changed at will is mechanics, everything else is completely mutable. You're playing a game where you sit around a table and pretend to slay (and be) dragons, is it that much of a stretch for your character to look like and act like what you say it does? Just change the fluff.

If you're really set against raptoran, and don't want to change the fluff, dragonborn anything should be fine.

Dragon born is probably gonna be the way to go. and please read my above post on the group dynamic.


Ok, cross breeding is fluff. You're choice of how you are 75% dragon does not matter to what race you choose. Brass Dragon + elf is (using core rules) a Half-Dragon Elf. This gives you the following

Medium size creature
30ft movement speed
+4 natural armor
2 claw attacks (1d4 each) and a bite attack (1d6)
Breath Weapon once per day, deals 6d8 damage, reflex DC 10+con modifier for half damage, 60ft line of fire
Dark Vision 60ft
Low Light Vision
immune to sleep, paralysis and fire
+8 str +2 dex +2 int +2 cha
+2 on saving throws against enchantments
Weapon proficiency Longsword rapier longbow and shortbow
+2 listen search spot
LA +3

Now then, to address one of the lists that you wrote of stuff that is important to you:


Claws: check
Bite: check
Tail: sorry
Flight: purchase Boots, Winged for 16000gp. This effectively allows you to fly for 15 minutes a day. Or get someone to cast the fly spell on you every time you need to fly (lasts 1 minute per casters level, level 3 spell)
Breath Weapon: check
Level of Sorcerer: go ahead
Levels of Barbarian: go ahead
+7 natural armor: You get 3 so purchase an amulet of natural armor +3 for 32000gp or wear magical armor and fluff it as natural armor
Feats: go ahead
Racial stat buffs: I dont know what you had before, but you get pretty good ones here
Draconic as language: take it as a bonus language

The only thing you are missing is your tail attack, your ability to fly isnt permanent and you have to purchase some magical items which might be a bit costly

Then as fluff you say one of your grandparents was an elf, the other three were brass dragons. And that is how you are 75% dragon.

If you want to be able to fly permanently, someone posted something for half-ogre: half-dragons that are large get wings and can fly at twice there base land speed

And how would the Fluff of One of my parents being half Dragonkin, half brass dragon and the other being half elf dragon born not achieve the same ends?

[Eldan]

I'm getting very tempted to write something that would give me an infraction.

[Weezer]

I read everything everybody puts in here.


You can read something and still ignore it and you seem to have ignored just about everything people have posted trying to help you. It's been 6 pages and you are still confrontational to people that are trying to help you and have barely accepted a shift from dragonkin to half dragon, while still criticizing the help people are giving you.

P.S. You ignored the only important part of my last post, why not just change the fluff? The mechanical result of half-dragon raptoran is far closer to what you want than half-dragon elf.

[Freelancer Jack]

I'm getting very tempted to write something that would give me an infraction.

And i'm going to go ahead and tell you that I said I read everything everybody writes here. I do not however always listen to their advice.

Look in my group, everybody built there character with some kind of fundamental flaw so that we were forced to work together as a group.

I have a build but i'm the only one who can fly and speak draconic. I'm also the only one who can stop Tank if somebody dominates him or uses some other magic to trick him into attacking the rest of us. because if master try's he will automatically become a fallen paladin, so it falls to me to keep him from slaughtering everybody if it comes down to it (and it has befor).

Master is always surrounded by a mine field of moral dilemmas that could cause him to become a fallen, fundamentally he's the most balanced in the group, but if he makes a mistake or does stop us from doing something, he looses all his paladin levels.

Murry is short and arrogant. he may be the most powerful mage, but that doesn't get you far when a fighter 5 levels lower then you decides you make a nice foot ball and punts you across the battle field.

Travis has the usual problems of an antisocial outcast. He also has a bad habit of trying to kill us in our sleep and steal our things.

Tank is dumber then bricks. his intelligence score is -2 (this is not a joke, that is the actual number filled in on his sheet)

Brandon can't actually kill anybody as a druid, he won't stop us from killing anybody who is trying to cause us bodily harm, but he can't kill anyone himself.

So forgive me if I have a habit of making my characters flawed, it's built into my brain and i'm trying to unlearn it.

[Mystic Muse]

Tank is dumber then bricks. his intelligence score is -2 (this is not a joke, that is the actual number filled in on his sheet) An intelligence score of 0 is being in a coma. There is no way to have ability scores go below zero, and an intelligence score of 3 is necessary to adventure at all


Brandon can't actually kill anybody as a druid, he won't stop us from killing anybody who is trying to cause us bodily harm, but he can't kill anyone himself. Do you mean he's just not good at killing anybody (Which I can believe0 or he can't kill anybody? Because the latter is very much not in the rules anywhere.

[Eldan]

No, no, no. Goddammit, no. No one is talking about that. You are talking nonsense.

We are not talking about flaws. What you are talking about are roleplaying flaws. We are fine with those.

What we want to help you is building an effective character. Effective at the rules. Your character is an outright horrible tank in any but the weakest level of optimization. He can not deal much damage. He can't intercept people. He doesn't have good armour, and he has about half as many hit points as another tank of his level ,and no damage reduction. He lacks class abilities.

We are trying to help you build a character who will not just be splattered against the next wall whenever he meets anything remotely challenge rating appropriate in combat.

That has nothing, and I repeat nothing to do with how you play him. You can play your character however you want, that is the entire bloody point of the game, and it is the thing people have been telling you for the past six pages, even though you are continually ignoring them and cherrypicking short statements out of their posts to be offended by.

Look at the picture of your precious, precious dragonkin. It's a thing with wings and a draconic appearance. Well, guess what? So is everything that has half-dragon, dangit. A half-dragon elf, a half-dragon ogre. And you can take that bloody picture and take it to any damn thing out there that has wings and is vaguely humanoid and call it a dragonborn.

It does not matter. You can take an effing half-celestial werewolf and calll it a dragonkin. Know why? Because it has wings and claws, which is the only part that matters. The rules are disconnected from the fluff to a large part. That is how this game works.

But go ahead. Threaten me a bit more, then perhaps post another helpful post all in bold that ignores everything someone else says, so you can feel a bit more entitled and be a bit more meaninglessly offended. I'm sure that makes you feel very good when no one wants to have you in your games. Feel free to quote any one sentence from this post to be offended by, I won't care as I won't come back in here.

[Freelancer Jack]

An intelligence score of 0 is being in a coma. There is no way to have ability scores go below zero, and an intelligence score of 3 is necessary to adventure at all
Do you mean he's just not good at killing anybody (Which I can believe0 or he can't kill anybody? Because the latter is very much not in the rules anywhere.

we've kind off all nodded our heads, and admitted that the orc tank plays is medically mentally retarded. we have tried to get him to take at least three points in that rank but he refuses to and prefers to continue amping himself with more feats that enhance his fighting prowess and damage resistance.


No, no, no. Goddammit, no. No one is talking about that. You are talking nonsense.

We are not talking about flaws. What you are talking about are roleplaying flaws. We are fine with those.

What we want to help you is building an effective character. Effective at the rules. Your character is an outright horrible tank in any but the weakest level of optimization. He can not deal much damage. He can't intercept people. He doesn't have good armour, and he has about half as many hit points as another tank of his level ,and no damage reduction. He lacks class abilities.

We are trying to help you build a character who will not just be splattered against the next wall whenever he meets anything remotely challenge rating appropriate in combat.

That has nothing, and I repeat nothing to do with how you play him. You can play your character however you want, that is the entire bloody point of the game, and it is the thing people have been telling you for the past six pages, even though you are continually ignoring them and cherrypicking short statements out of their posts to be offended by.

Look at the picture of your precious, precious dragonkin. It's a thing with wings and a draconic appearance. Well, guess what? So is everything that has half-dragon, dangit. A half-dragon elf, a half-dragon ogre. And you can take that bloody picture and take it to any damn thing out there that has wings and is vaguely humanoid and call it a dragonborn.

It does not matter. You can take an effing half-celestial werewolf and calll it a dragonkin. Know why? Because it has wings and claws, which is the only part that matters. The rules are disconnected from the fluff to a large part. That is how this game works.

But go ahead. Threaten me a bit more, then perhaps post another helpful post all in bold that ignores everything someone else says, so you can feel a bit more entitled and be a bit more meaninglessly offended. I'm sure that makes you feel very good when no one wants to have you in your games. Feel free to quote any one sentence from this post to be offended by, I won't care as I won't come back in here.

Friend, i'm not threatening you, i'm not even opposing you. what I want is "COMPROMISE" a out come where the finished product is something that everybody may not like, but they can all agree that it is acceptable and move on with out having regrets about the out come.

I am not trying to make you angry, i'm not trying to piss you off, I am trying to find a middle ground on a field that people are constantly moving around and expanding as more and more opinions and ideas are weighted in and need to be taken into review and consideration.

It is very hard to do that when everybody is throwing me all these obscure curve-balls and rules and stats that my brain can only half comprehend and analyse while i'm getting more and more and more and more ideas crammed down my throat by so many people that it is over whelming to me.


You can read something and still ignore it and you seem to have ignored just about everything people have posted trying to help you. It's been 6 pages and you are still confrontational to people that are trying to help you and have barely accepted a shift from dragonkin to half dragon, while still criticizing the help people are giving you.

P.S. You ignored the only important part of my last post, why not just change the fluff? The mechanical result of half-dragon raptoran is far closer to what you want than half-dragon elf.

Because I'm doing a rebuild for my IRL table top game and my games here. 7 people in my life don't want to rewrite the epic 175 page book we've had loads of fun creating and lovingly crafting to perfection for the 4 years we've known each other and played the game together with.

If mine changes, theirs has to change too. So it's not my own personal story on the line here, it's my groups. And I am going to fight tooth and nail to make sure it doesn't have to be rewritten because people from outside our group of friends don't like the way WE play the game.

In fact the results of this remake will be the plot of our next story arch where Wrex goes back home to fight in a huge clan war between his tribe and a rival one of Orc's and another of tribal elves. In it my page of back-story is going to be rewritten to incorporate the new changes that i'm currently working in here with you guys and gals so that we don't have to completely rewrite our book.
We're also switching to the real DnD rules init, which have forced everybody to tweak their characters and incorporate some other things to make up for the changes.

So please try and be a little more understanding of the predicament i'm currently in.

[Mystic Muse]

we've kind off all nodded our heads, and admitted that the orc tank plays is medically mentally retarded. we have tried to get him to take at least three points in that rank but he refuses to and prefers to continue amping himself with more feats that enhance his fighting prowess and damage resistance.


This isn't even medically mentally retarded. This is completely mindless. -2 (Or zero since you can't go into negatives) means no thought whatsoever. Unless he's a creature type that is being controlled by something else or a swarm or something, no intelligence score means he can't move at all. He is incapable of thought at all. He is stupider than a newborn baby. That is not hyperbole, by the rules, a newborn baby has more intelligence than him.

Also, you didn't answer my question about the druid.

[The Big Orc]

A zero intelligence is the equivalent of brain dead. In real terms: this means that your brain is off, that it is not telling your heart to beat, it isn't telling your lungs to take in air, you are dead.

[Mystic Muse]

A zero intelligence is the equivalent of brain dead. In real terms: this means that your brain is off, that it is not telling your heart to beat, it isn't telling your lungs to take in air, you are dead.

No, only a constitution of zero equals dead in D&D. Other scores at zero means either total paralysis or in a coma.

[The Big Orc]

Ah, well if someone has a permanent int score of 0 they are effectively dead, even if technically they arent

[Freelancer Jack]

This isn't even medically mentally retarded. This is completely mindless. -2 (Or zero since you can't go into negatives) means no thought whatsoever. Unless he's a creature type that is being controlled by something else or a swarm or something, no intelligence score means he can't move at all. He is incapable of thought at all. He is stupider than a newborn baby. That is not hyperbole, by the rules, a newborn baby has more intelligence than him.

Also, you didn't answer my question about the druid.

You actually named a actually named an event that happened in our campaign . Tank was beaten in a battle of Intillegt with a new born child. this story begins hilariously and ends with me and Issac having to pummel him into submission to keep him from killing said baby that just beat him.

he does however, have the highest constitution of anybody in the group (37)

i'll be informing Tank that he does indeed need to put in three points into INT or when we start the next campaign arch he will die instantly of brain nonexistence.

And as for Brandon, he couldn't kill a man with all his arms and legs hacked of and taking bleeding damage if he got a sneak attack with a vorpal blade.

[Aegis013]

Because I'm doing a rebuild for my IRL table top game and my games here. 7 people in my life don't want to rewrite the epic 175 page book we've had loads of fun creating and lovingly crafting to perfection for the 4 years we've known each other and played the game together with.

If mine changes, theirs has to change too. So it's not my own personal story on the line here, it's my groups. And I am going to fight tooth and nail to make sure it doesn't have to be rewritten because people from outside our group of friends don't like the way WE play the game.

In fact the results of this remake will be the plot of our next story arch where Wrex goes back home to fight in a huge clan war between his tribe and a rival one of Orc's and another of tribal elves. In it my page of back-story is going to be rewritten to incorporate the new changes that i'm currently working in here with you guys and gals so that we don't have to completely rewrite our book.
We're also switching to the real DnD rules init, which have forced everybody to tweak their characters and incorporate some other things to make up for the changes.

So please try and be a little more understanding of the predicament i'm currently in.

Sorry, but you have to separate rebuilds from the original. It's not the same character. It simply can't be the same character down to the last detail. Your DM and a new DM will almost always have differences on how to run the game or what setting or how this interacts with that. The DM will not be picking up the story and the character from the old DM when you transition to another group. This character may be Wrex again, in idea, but in practice it's an entirely new character, ready to take on the world!

In order to fully benefit from the advice the playgrounders give you, and man are they trying, it is important to have a firm grasp of the basic mechanical rules of Dungeons and Dragons 3.5, and based on your descriptions of your college group that has been running for quite some time, a lot of those rules have been modified, ignored or made up for your group. It seems like due to being so immersed in these rule alterations, it has become difficult for you to think of the game without them, which presents a huge challenge for us in trying to convey our ideas (which do not include any homebrew or rule alterations, in general) and understanding of the game (which are based on the absence of homebrew or rule alterations for the most part).

Do you see what I (and others) are trying to say?

[Weezer]

Because I'm doing a rebuild for my IRL table top game and my games here. 7 people in my life don't want to rewrite the epic 175 page book we've had loads of fun creating and lovingly crafting to perfection for the 4 years we've known each other and played the game together with.

If mine changes, theirs has to change too. So it's not my own personal story on the line here, it's my groups. And I am going to fight tooth and nail to make sure it doesn't have to be rewritten because people from outside our group of friends don't like the way WE play the game.

So please try and be a little more understanding of the predicament i'm currently in.

You just ignored the whole point of my post. My point was that you can change the fluff however you want. No matter what you write down on your sheet for race you will not have to rewrite a *single* thing to do with the history of your campaign, just change the new fluff of your character to match with the old, only changing the things that are mechanically different (like no longer being large). Write down half-dragon raptoran, but play as a midget Dragonkin.


Though it does seem like your whole group would benefit from stepping away from this campaign for a bit in order to make some level 1 characters that are actually rules legal. Then play them for 3-4 sessions, following every single actual rule. This would let everyone involved figure out how to actually play D&D while avoiding the whole 'my character used to be able to do X, why can't he anymore?'. Only then try to convert over so you aren't learning a new game, trying to completly redo a character and maintain cohesion with the story all at the same time. See if you are capable of swimming in a pool before you dive into the pacific to fight a shark underwater.

[Freelancer Jack]

I finely figured out whats been throwing me off. My old group used a thing we called Inheritance stats as our base core stats. man I feel like an idiot.

The system is based on this equation:

(m/2)+(f/2)=x

now M stands for mother. You take the deafult starting stats of whoever you characters parents were and divide them in half then add them up. the base gets you the Stats your character would have as the offspring of the two.

now lets factro in both parents being half breeds:

((m/2)+(f/2)=(m/2))+((m/2)+(f/2)=(f/2))= X

Now try dividing up everything you've suggested to me to fit that equation and you'll know why i'm frustrated.

[Weezer]

I finely figured out whats been throwing me off. My old group used a thing we called Inheritance stats as our base core stats. man I feel like an idiot.

The system is based on this equation:

(m/2)+(f/2)=x

now M stands for mother. You take the deafult starting stats of whoever you characters parents were and divide them in half then add them up. the base gets you the Stats your character would have as the offspring of the two.

now lets factro in both parents being half breeds:

((m/2)+(f/2)=(m/2))+((m/2)+(f/2)=(f/2))= X

Now try dividing up everything you've suggested to me to fit that equation and you'll know why i'm frustrated.

Yikes. Guess that explains why you cared so much about the genetic background of your character. Kind of reinforces the idea that you should try making a simple, practice, character first and use it to get used to how the game actually works before trying to get a relatively complex concept to work out.

[Greenish]

There are a few classes on there that mix close combat with spellcasting:
The Raumathari Battlemage (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20030413c), which can cast spells through their swords.
The Rage Mage (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20031116a&page=7), which can cast spells while raging.
The (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/prestigeClasses/eldritchKnight.htm) Eldritch Knight, from the SRD, which is basically a fighter also advancing spellcasting. Definitely the worst of these, but might help.Suel Arcanamach might work, too, since monstrous humanoids have full BAB. If the skills are there, he could jump straight in. I seem to recall it even being in the net somewhere.


As for the Half-draconic Raptoran.
I'll be very honest I did indeed read through all of it and consider it carefully, then read the fluff about themWhy? It has nothing to do with your character.


you should try making a simple, practice, character first and use it to get used to how the game actually works before trying to get a relatively complex concept to work out.This. The game you have experience with is not the same game most of us here play.

[SexyPlantLover]

@freelancer jack
i suggest you find another group of people who game at your school/town. not to join their group, but to observe it. watch them play, ask questions, borrow someone player's handbook. it can be difficult to learn an almost completely different system (and many houseruled games are like one), but if you can ask people who play differently, you can better decide if you even want to change your current group's rules. maybe what you really want is to play as wrex you currently do, AND play a different character in a more standard game.

also, to reiterate some other folks, the fluff written in the books is nice, but it isn't the end all be all of d&d. you can use it or not, depending on the group/dm. i believe that if you role-play going into a battle rage but have fighter written on your character sheet, that's ok. classes help define a role, but not the entirety of role-playing a character. your character is your choices in the game, not numbers and names. and the same goes for race, etc., all houserules aside. (all houserules in, maybe someone in the homebrew forum or your dm can help you create exactly what you are looking for, wotc's writers aren't the only ones with good ideas.)

@annulus & weezer
i knew my build was bad, but not "really, really bad" or "one of the least optimized ever seen". such things make me sad :smallfrown: j/k (mostly).

because really, it was neither of those things in the game it was played in. and maybe that's part of the point for freelancer jack's wrex. we don't know the level of power in his game/s, so all we can base our suggestions and advice on is his desired flavor and mechanics. which we've tried. i'm not sure he has the experience/language to let us know more. maybe we need a new thread explaining his game and how it is different from what we expect. (although i'd expect that to be difficult and time consuming to determine)

tl;rd maybe this is an issue without a satisfactory conclusion or compromise.

[Daftendirekt]

I finely figured out whats been throwing me off. My old group used a thing we called Inheritance stats as our base core stats. man I feel like an idiot.

The system is based on this equation:

(m/2)+(f/2)=x

now M stands for mother. You take the deafult starting stats of whoever you characters parents were and divide them in half then add them up. the base gets you the Stats your character would have as the offspring of the two.

now lets factro in both parents being half breeds:

((m/2)+(f/2)=(m/2))+((m/2)+(f/2)=(f/2))= X

Now try dividing up everything you've suggested to me to fit that equation and you'll know why i'm frustrated.
That made my brain hurt.

How the hell has your group been playing Dungeons and Dragons for so long with such a cluster**** of random house rules, and so little knowledge of real 3.5?!

[Geigan]

That made my brain hurt.

How the hell has your group been playing Dungeons and Dragons for so long with such a cluster**** of random house rules, and so little knowledge of real 3.5?!

Well considering how long they played it that way, it would seem they enjoyed it well enough that what the real rules were didn't really matter until he started asking for advice from people on how to play a game that no one else but them has ever played. That and trying to mix games. I remember my first game of 3.5 being involved with just sorting out what the actual rules were from what the group I was playing with thought they were. It's only really a problem when you try to translate into a normal game.

Jack would you mind trying to list out the houserules, homebrew, etc that your group has played with in full and complete detail, so that we may give advice based on that? I doubt you're going to get much help here unless you either teach us the game you're playing or learn how to play the game our way. As it is now it's like we're speaking different languages. If you can point out all the differences we may be able to help you.

[The Glyphstone]

Not to mention the just basic issues as players and people that are evidently in force here, if you all actually dislike each other OOC this much. No gaming is better than bad gaming sometimes.

[Freelancer Jack]

Not to mention the just basic issues as players and people that are evidently in force here, if you all actually dislike each other OOC this much. No gaming is better than bad gaming sometimes.

and stop the wacky adventures of the derp squad? hell no.