(OWoD V:tM) Achieving Elysium Status

[NekoJoker]

ok, sounds a bit cryptic, but here's the deal in a nutshell: In our current chronicle I own a nightclub (typical goth joint) and in time i would like to have my place become one of the city's elysium. I know that a nightclub does not perfectly follow the criteria of Elyzium (as it is not a museum, a theatre an opera house or what have you) but according to ruling, anything can go.

So i'm looking for ideas to have this plan come together if at all possible.

some info about the chronicle and my character:
- I am playing an 8th generation malkavian (derrangement not important), My sire has some control over somecultural developments in the city (most related to the music scene) my own character is currently earning a bit of fame as a musician in both mortal and kindred world.

- I have 3 dots on resources and believe i can accomplish most reforms needed as long as the nightclub stays a nightclub

- We have just finished a quest in which we provided some service to the prince of the city, so I "may" be able to get some support there, but it is a longshot.

so... to sum it up: I wanna get my nightclub as an official party joint for all kindred, and turn it into Elysium in the process.

Any ideas will be greatly welcomed!

[The Glyphstone]

Isn't it just a decision of the Prince? Butter him up enough and you're good.

[LemuneSD]

An Elysium is simply a neutral grounds vampires of multiple clans and even factions can gather and relax, and not worry about violence and feuds following them. I compare it to the fancy restaurants that Mafia Dons in movies often use. True, the local Prince is the one who sets this up, but there is no reason that a player couldn't get this done through the GM =D

[Beelzebub1111]

Any place COULD be an Elysium as long as you have the muscle to back it up. That's why the prince is generally required to declare it one, he's the biggest muscle around. If you get some big, tough Brujah or Gengrel bouncers you'll be fine until you get some political backing.

[Reluctance]

The biggest problem with having a nightclub declared elysium is that elysium is where vampires go to unwind without mortal eyes all over the place. Nightclubs are more popular as a place to pick up a bite to eat, and a place filled with humans to nosh on is obviously counterproductive to having a place where vampires can speak freely without having to worry about masquerade breaches. Although the rack is usually free from violence because any kindred-level fight will also be a masquerade breach in front of many witnesses.

You can certainly try to make certain vampire-friendly amenities to curry favor. If you're in the prince's good graces, you can probably get the place gifted to you as domain, which gives you certain legal rights. At least insofar as they matter in the world of the undead. But I'm having a hard time seeing a vampire exclusive nightclub work in practice, and even regular "private parties" are going to hinder its popularity amongst mortals.

[LemuneSD]

The biggest problem with having a nightclub declared elysium is that elysium is where vampires go to unwind without mortal eyes all over the place.

The thing is that just like every other group of people, Kindred have a variety of tastes. While one may see a museum or a restaurant as a place to relax, others (especially the younger Generations of vampires more recently embraced) will have different tastes and ideas of what is 'relaxing.' There is no reason a nigh club couldn't be an Elysium. It is all in personal preference of the kindred involved. As long as you have the backing of someone powerful enough to enforce the local Elysium such as a Prince or Justicar, any place is fine.

[Cirrylius]

I'd be more worried about the consequences afterward. While the younger Kindred in the city might like the idea of a nightclub hangout, the older kindred might well see it as a diluting of their carefully crafted "higher culture" Kindred infrastructure. The harpies would either lead the charge or take advantage of the opportunity to snipe at you to gain approval with the elders. I wouldn't call the venture out-and-out risky (unless you've got some really vindictive harpies, or a current Elysium owner who stands to lose a lot from your new venture), but if I were Storyteller this would lead to some friction. If there's enough younger kindred to participate in the new venue then you should be all right, but I'd be prepared to take a small hit in status first, before you're eventually recognized as an Elysium patron.

[LemuneSD]

True, but anything worth having is worth bleeding, being ostracized and dying horribly for, right? :smallsmile:

And if the worse case does happen, you can always blame the Prince (who was obviously not fit to rule anyways, since he couldn't take care of the place he deemed Elysium) and claim that it isn't your fault, you were a pawn in the Prince's game, and you'll mend your misguided ways!

[Cirrylius]

Unless the place gets firebombed or something, the worst backlash the prince would suffer would be some distaste for letting the newbs try to make Thanksgiving happen at the kiddie table. So to speak. And he could always deflect any criticism with "now they have a place to themselves, they'll leave the REAL Elysium alone when they want to get gauche."

And, while it's a legitimate excuse, announcing to the Kindred community at large that "it's not my fault, I was MANIPULATED" would draw scorn at best, and at worst alert the other predators to weakness. Probably best to take your lumps and keep your mouth shut. With some luck they'll mistake embarrassment for dignity under trying circumstances. Or at least having the sense not to draw further attention to yourself :smallwink:

[LemuneSD]

Personally, I'd say the Prince not taking care of a place he deems "Eylsium" and not protecting it is the true sign of weakness. The 'Prince' in this case is probably just a face for the real power that the Primogen most likely possesses and is puppeting him (as sometimes happens in VtM xD). I wouldn't want someone like that as my Prince. Time to find out who is pulling the strings. =P

Now if he has the brass to, even though its frowned upon, stand up for what he wants and make the club a proper Elysium and give it the protection it warrants, then that is a Prince worth saluting!

And as far as leadership goes, the Prince IS at fault. It is his city, his charges, his Elysium. He is held responsible. If he can't step up to defend what he claims he can defend, then there are other options to consider >=D

[W3bDragon]

You'd probably be better off taking it one step at a time. For example, start by inviting some kindred to enjoy your club. Offer them some "amenities".

After some time, hopefully with more of the younger kindred frequenting your joint, you can get some kindred bouncers as well as mortal security measures. If you can secure the kindred bouncers on your own, great. If not, you can get them by using your favor with the prince.

Again, after some more time has passed and your place gets known for being a good hangout for young kindred AND having good security, you can then petition the prince to declare it an Elysium.

The prince is much more likely to agree if the place is already an Elysium in all but name. However, I can't see why he'd be bothered to help you if you want him to basically "give you" an Elysium.

[Strormer]

So what you're really asking is how can you become the host (http://images.smh.com.au/ftsmh/ffximage/2009/04/02/lorne_angel_narrowweb__300x447,0.jpg) as a vampire, eh? A noble pursuit.
I've only played VtM once so bear with me, but you should be able to get a hold of some form of sealing which could force nonviolence within the area of the club provided that the affected isn't strong enough to outright overcome the magic. This may be more extensive than what you're attempting though.
Really it's just this:
step 1: get your club vast popularity among kindred
step 2: keep your club in the good graces of those powerful in the area
step 3: either announce your club as neutral turf or have the prince declare it elysium
step 4: don't let things mess up, which will undoubtedly require near constant attention directed towards your club
step 5: vampire karaoke!:smallcool:

[Chen]

Are you the Keeper of Elysium in the city? If not I could see getting your club declared Elysium an easy way to lose your club. The Keeper is the one who is essentially in charge of everything at an Elysium.

The question I think is WHY you want the club to Elysium? Having it granted to you as personal Domain seems easier and has less problems with having other higher ups stepping on your toes. It protects your club from other vampires taking it over or whatnot (since that would constitute a violation of your Domain) and it protects you personally in there. You could make your own rules of no attacking other kindred in there. Now, the problem of course is that you need to be able to enforce this protection (or get the Sheriff to help out). Not being able to control your Domain is an easy way to lose it.

[Loki Eremes]

Are you the Keeper of Elysium in the city? If not I could see getting your club declared Elysium an easy way to lose your club. The Keeper is the one who is essentially in charge of everything at an Elysium.

The question I think is WHY you want the club to Elysium? Having it granted to you as personal Domain seems easier and has less problems with having other higher ups stepping on your toes. It protects your club from other vampires taking it over or whatnot (since that would constitute a violation of your Domain) and it protects you personally in there. You could make your own rules of no attacking other kindred in there. Now, the problem of course is that you need to be able to enforce this protection (or get the Sheriff to help out). Not being able to control your Domain is an easy way to lose it.


Excuse me, new word to me:
What is a DOMAIN?

[TheCountAlucard]

Excuse me, new word to me:
What is a DOMAIN?You mean you've literally never seen this word before, or just that you've never seen it in Vampire before? :smallconfused:

[Loki Eremes]

You mean you've literally never seen this word before, or just that you've never seen it in Vampire before? :smallconfused:


What does it mean in the vampiric world.

[TheCountAlucard]

Territory that the Prince has given you control over.

[Loki Eremes]

Territory that the Prince has given you control over.

So, In this "place" you impose the rules?
this place is not under the power of the prince anymore, but rather you?

But....you still are under the prince in terms of power, do you? I mean... He STILL has control over you, but not the place itself. Right?

[Reluctance]

Think of the relation between a barony and a kingdom. Vampire politics are very feudal like that. Still, while in theory it's still the prince's turf, in practice you have wide latitude so long as you don't break any laws and you don't piss off anyone bigger than you.

[Chen]

What does it mean in the vampiric world.

Really? Domain is the second tradition. There is a longer explanation in the main rulebook but generally its used such that a Prince has Domain over their city. The Prince can grant Domain do individuals or clans and those individuals or clans have control over that area. Note the Prince still has Domain over the city and his word is still the law EVERYWHERE, even if he grants Domain to others.

The reason this is so important is because violating Domain is not just breaking the rule of a Prince. It is violating one of the traditions. This is a much more serious crime, which is why Domain is so sought. For example a person can close his Domain and not allow entry to any vampires or their agents. Should someone violate this, he can seek to show that this person has broken the traditions and punishment is due. Depending on how your storyteller is, vampires would even need permission to do business in your Domain and it could be within your power to request a cut of said business as the price to allow them to do so. Domain is one of the greatest rewards you can receive.

Now clearly it gets more political than that. Domain is also a responsibility. If you cannot protect/enforce your will in your Domain, perhaps you don't deserve to hold it. If someone breaches the Masquerade in your Domain, the prince may expect you do ensure it gets properly cleaned up since you allowed this breach to occur there. Basically everything that a Prince does in his city, you can generally do within your Domain (usually barring breaking other traditions like siring more vampires or destroying other vampires).

[Cirrylius]

Personally, I'd say the Prince not taking care of a place he deems "Eylsium" and not protecting it is the true sign of weakness.
I'm not talking about physical security, or fallout from intrigue between other vampires actually contesting who controls what. I'm talking about how well the new Elysium integrates into the existing infrastructure, which is much less of a responsibility for the Prince.

Some examples:

Event: It's unpopular with the older crowd, but the younger vampires like it.
Consequences: The Prince just pretends the new Elysium was approved to get the Neonates out of the grown-ups' hair at their usual salon(s). Think a group of adults who are having a party tricking their kids into going to daycare so they're not constantly underfoot. The older, more cultured vampires make fun of you for not being part of the "real" Elysium scene, or (very unlikely, unless you're an Elder or old Ancillae) consider you to be a responsible person, for doing the thankless but useful chore of getting the neonates out of sight but still under control. You'll gain status with the younger crowd for liking the new venue.

Event: EVERYBODY likes it (unlikely, IMO)
Consequences: The Prince gains status for approving a new Elysium hotspot, and you gain status for running it. The only negative consequences you'll have to deal with are any vampires who are unhappy with the new status quo, probably for personal reasons, and they'll have to be careful about expressing that since the rest of the community is happy with the way things are now, and any attempt to change things back will threaten the status of anyone who came out ahead in the venture.

Event: NOBODY likes it
Consequences: The Prince loses status for approving your idea, and you lose LOTS of status for bringing it up in the first place and then dropping the ball. You get made fun of at the existing Elysia, and the Prince is pissed that you involved him.

Also keep in mind that if the Prince declared you Keeper of a new Elysium, it'll probably be YOUR responsibility if security isn't up to snuff, or if you can't control Kindred hostilities inside its walls. Within reason, of course; gang violence, squabbling neonates and Masquerade violations fall squarely in your lap, while skilled, knowledgeable hunters might be a shared responsibility. If a strike team of werewolves or a War Ghoul show up, then that's outside your jurisdiction; that'd be like blaming a small-town police force for not being able to stop a rogue military unit. If someone is hitting your city with the big guns or purposefully attacking kindred locales it is indeed the Prince's job to make sure it doesn't happen twice.

[comicshorse]

War Ghoul

Huh ? Do you mean a ghoul whose a trained soldier cause that shouldn't be a problem for a vampire or something else

[Loki Eremes]

Huh ? Do you mean a ghoul whose a trained soldier cause that shouldn't be a problem for a vampire or something else

I think he is talking about that nasty things made by Tzimisces

[comicshorse]

Vohzd ? Szlatcha ?

[LemuneSD]

Event: EVERYBODY likes it (unlikely, IMO)
Event: NOBODY likes it

Basically, I think you're over analyzing the idea. Nekojoker was asking on ways to have his nightclub eventually become an Elysium. He already has the establishment in the game, it seems. He wasn't asking about the 500 reasons (in your opinion) that it shouldn't happen. Nekojoker seems to wants the Elysium for fun, and probably a plot hook. This is something he is interested in for his campaign, and wants ideas, solutions or alternatives, I think.

I love Chen's alternative of making it a personal Domain. It seems to have all the listed benefits wanted from the Elysium idea, and still has the free reign to do what Players do best without being tied to all the political necessities demanded from being given the Keeper of the Elysium title. It can still easily be used as a social hub, and can still be granted Elysium status if enough popularity is gained =D

But yeah, I agree large scale assaults on the area are definitely in the Prince's jurisdiction.

I was involved in a rather awesome campaign where some of the Primogen, along with a Justicar, decided that the Prince was not fit to rule this particular area (due to greed on the Primogen conspirators part) and were pulling strings to have the Prince discredited. They were using the Prince's own Elysium (very fancy italian restaurant/club in this case) as a source for spreading rumors and stealing allies. We liked the Prince, so we slowly worked towards exposing the plot and proved to the Justicar that the Primogen members in question were traitors (and with some creativity, they were traitors to the Camarilla). We got most of the conspirators inside the Elysium. The Justicar arrived, gave her Sentence to the traitors, promoted us (the party) as temporary sheriffs, destroyed the Elysium's sanctuary laws then waged a small war inside the restaurant. This event was by no means the Prince's or the Keeper of the Elysium's fault. The Justicar took over, recruited us, we whooped astronomical body parts, and the day was saved!

[Cirrylius]

Basically, I think you're over analyzing the idea.
My point was that, except under very specific circumstances, if an attempt to create a new Elysium fails, or if limited violence breaks out, it's on the character, and not the Prince.


He wasn't asking about the 500 reasons (in your opinion) that it shouldn't happen.
I think it's a GREAT idea. Plot hooks, character involvement in Kindred society, political clout, etc. etc. I'm just saying that if it happens, it's unlikely to be a popular attraction for everybody, realistically speaking, and status gain will likely be mixed at first. And that's fine. Doing ANYTHING in Kindred society with unambiguously positive results is outrageously uncommon.


I love Chen's alternative of making it a personal Domain. It seems to have all the listed benefits wanted from the Elysium idea, and still has the free reign to do what Players do best without being tied to all the political necessities demanded from being given the Keeper of the Elysium title. It can still easily be used as a social hub, and can still be granted Elysium status if enough popularity is gained =D
It's a very good middle ground. There are still complications, but not nearly as many, and any status fallout would be much less than if he were trying to make a new official Elysium. And while the status GAINED would be less, that's good too; it'll introduce him more gradually into the political scene. It's not a great idea to jump into the deep end of the pool first in Kindred politics


Vohzd ? Szlatcha ?
Gesundheit.

Srsly, though, a War Ghoul is like fifty ghouls vicissitude-d together into a hulk of roaring mouths and flailing limbs with no higher brain functions. BIG mothers. Not the kind of thing you could expect the Brujah legbreaker to deal with.

[Dingle]

I think that'd be a "vohzd" then. Those Tzimisce do like thier "z"s
We got to fight one once in a werewolf game: started with a pack and a half of 6 experienced werewolves, we were in 9 pieces by the time it went down.

[NekoJoker]

Alriiiight!

All those responses are awesome! Now I have a better idea as to how to put this thing together

i should start slow first, but being a keeper of Elysium is my ultimate goal.


I'll begin by making the club a real hotspot for kine and kindred, then I'll request for it to become my personal domain, over time as i gain power and influence i will try to turn it into a proper elysium

But first i need to be popular, and to that end, social events are the norm. Let's get a party started!

Playground, i ask thee: "how would you organize a Kindred party?"

[JeenLeen]

Playground, i ask thee: "how would you organize a Kindred party?"

Do you have established blood dolls, or ghouls, from which you can provide subsistence to the other vampires? It's not something you'd want to do very often, lest others take advantage of you and see you as a carpet they can step on, but if you can do it every so often, it shows you as having a lot of resources (and thus powerful).

To avoid Masquerade breaches by having blood dolls present, maybe a ghoul who drains your 'resources' and serves it by the glass?

A bouncer, or you yourself, having Auspex 2 to make sure no non-vamps get in would also be helpful.

[comicshorse]

Gesundheit.

Srsly, though, a War Ghoul is like fifty ghouls vicissitude-d together into a hulk of roaring mouths and flailing limbs with no higher brain functions. BIG mothers. Not the kind of thing you could expect the Brujah legbreaker to deal with.

Yep that's a Vohzd.
Yeah I don't think many Princes are equipped to deal with one of those monsters


Playground, i ask thee: "how would you organize a Kindred party?"

Masked balls are always appreciated by the Nosferatu as it enables them to actually relax at the party and not worry about their Obfuscate and the Toreador love them for the chance to outshine each other with their costumes and take veiled shots at their rivals by their masks/ costumes

[Cirrylius]

Those are both really good ideas. If you're hosting a come-one-come-all party, you'll have to find attractions that are fun for everybody. By definition, all Vampires like feeding, so a wine/cheese dealie would go over well (albeit somewhat resource-intensive if you're going for exotic vintages, or especially high quality). You'll need access to high Dominate (to mind-wipe) or low Humanity (to kill 'em afterwards) to do it. And Masquerade parties are familiar to the old Kindred, and novel for the young ones.
Invite a renowned Kindred storyteller/historian (if you have access to one) to tell some tales of yore, on non-politically charged topics (NO Carthage in front of the Brujah). Variants on Noddite mythology, maybe, something involving Caine or the second generation. Avoid Antedilluvians; it's too easy to start arguments along Clan lines.