"Gnomes aren't small enough!" Confound the Big Folk

[Luminiferous]

So, I'm about to venture into the world of DnD for the first time.

I am also a short person.

So, when I found this build Here (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19872846/I_May_Be_Tiny,_But_Youre_Dead:_the_other,_melee_Ki ller_Gnome,_for_your_pleasure.?pg=1), I was quite pleased. An when I read Here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=156350) that Muckdwellers are tiny-size and LA+0, I was also pleased. :smallcool:

When I tried to put the two together, I failed miserably and cried a little inside. Reason? Blade Bravo is gnome only. Of course a gnome can be made to be smaller, but I would be dependent upon magic. I have been warned by the more experienced players in my party that my DM punishes such dependence rather harshly. :smalleek:

Any of you optimization masters have ideas for how to make a similar build for a Muckdweller? (SK pg. 71)

Edit: whoopse! added the nessesary links.

[TroubleBrewing]

Kobold. Slight build lets you count as tiny-sized, and then you enter Stoneblessed to count as a Gnome for Blade Bravo.

[Luminiferous]

Stoneblessed kobold. That's a roleplaying nightmare if I ever heard one.

[TroubleBrewing]

Not at all! Kobolds and Gnomes hate each other. You get to be the hated foe turned valuable ally. Drizzt of the Kobolds, if you will.

[Mantarni]

The adaptation text for BB recommends expanding the prereqs to include other small/smaller beings; small fey, etc. The point of the class isn't about being a gnome but being a small being who is specifically geared towards fighting larger opponents.

Talk to your DM and point that out, and see if he'll allow it. If not, yeah there are other loopholes and ways around it.

EDIT: Yeah, if expanding the prereq races doesn't work, for stoneblessed kobold you would be the result of an experiment the gnomes did to make sleeper cell kobolds or using them as expendable troops or something.

[Luminiferous]

Can I get a citation for this adaption text, Mantarni? That sounds like the answer to my problems.:smallsmile:

[Heliomance]

Stoneblessed Muckdweller would also work.

[Curmudgeon]

Kobold. Slight build lets you count as tiny-sized
Only in a limited sense. From Kobolds: Playing to Their Strengths (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060420a)
Slight Build: The physical stature of kobolds lets them function in many ways as if they were one size category smaller. Whenever a kobold is subject to a size modifier or special size modifier for an opposed check (such as Hide), the kobold is treated as one size smaller if doing so is advantageous to the character. A kobold is also considered to be one size smaller when "squeezing" through a restrictive space. A kobold can use weapons designed for a creature one size smaller without penalty. However, the space and reach of a kobold remain those of a creature of their actual size. The benefits of this racial trait stack with the effects of powers, abilities, and spells that change the subject's size category. Prestige class entry isn't an opposed check, squeezing, or using a weapon ─ the three areas where Slight Build lets you count as Tiny.

When I tried to put the two together, I failed miserably and cried a little inside. Reason? Blade Bravo is gnome only. Of course a gnome can be made to be smaller, but I would be dependent upon magic.
There is a way of getting to Blade Bravo with a Tiny character, and no active magic; it'll take some doing, though.

Start as a character with the Giant type. Either a Half-Giant (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/monsters/halfGiant.htm) or Eneko (Secrets of Sarlona, page 109) gives you a Medium size Giant, with LA +1 (which you would buy off for 3,000 XP at class level 3).
The Return to Nature 7th level Druid spell (Eberron Campaign Setting, pages 114-115), when cast on a creature of the Giant type, will make them smaller. Since this is an Instantaneous duration spell, you can get it cast twice to be reduced to Tiny size.
You can enter the Stoneblessed prestige class (Races of Stone, page 123 & following) as a creature of the Giant type. At Stoneblessed 3 you acquire the Stoneborn ability, whereby you thereafter qualify as a member of the race you pick to bond with: Dwarf, Gnome, or Goliath. Since you've picked Gnome, you're set for Blade Bravo entry.

[Luminiferous]

Hmmm, that's very clever, but... instead of having to sacrifice 3 levels and cause my DM headaches to get there, is there a proper substitute prestige/class that would help me reach a similar build?

[Curmudgeon]

Not that I know of. There's not much support for Tiny size characters.

[Ravens_cry]

Get Reduce Person cast on you with Permanency. It's on the list. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/permanency.htm)

[Curmudgeon]

Of course a gnome can be made to be smaller, but I would be dependent upon magic. I have been warned by the more experienced players in my party that my DM punishes such dependence rather harshly. :smalleek:

Get Reduce Person cast on you with Permanency. It's on the list. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/permanency.htm)
Always a good idea to read before writing. :smallsmile: A simple area Dispel Magic has two chances of the character becoming their original size:
Dispel Reduce Person, and Permanency has nothing to apply to, or
Dispel Permanency, and the Reduce Person spell is already past its expiration.

[Ravens_cry]

Another option, though still dependent on magic, is a magic item. If its dispelled, it comes back eventually. And since it's a first level spell, it's pretty cheap. At higher levels, you could even keep more than one on hand, just in case. Though it doesn't help against AMG, those are fairly rare.
In fact, I've yet to see one in a campaign, and I've completed a handful of Adventure paths.

[Heliomance]

Still not seeing what's wrong (aside, obviously, from the three level investment) of taking Muckdweller into Stoneblessed.

[BobVosh]

There was an IC competition for blade bravo.
Half way down the page, and onto the next page here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=166539&page=5) are the builds.
Worth a look or two if you want to play around with the class.

[Feytalist]

There was an IC competition for blade bravo.
Half way down the page, and onto the next page here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=166539&page=5) are the builds.
Worth a look or two if you want to play around with the class.

It's actually not a bad idea to read through all those builds. I seem to remember a kobold stoneblessed in that competition that could shrink all the way down to... diminutive, was it? In any case, some good ideas there, maybe.

[BobVosh]

That was Jacob. He was an awesome build.

Dulcine (sp?) was my favorite build from the contest, and I think is the all time high score winner. May be second-3rd for all contests.

[molten_dragon]

Kobold. Slight build lets you count as tiny-sized, and then you enter Stoneblessed to count as a Gnome for Blade Bravo.

Also keep in mind that Slight build is a variant rule. Core kobolds do not have it.

[molten_dragon]

Still not seeing what's wrong (aside, obviously, from the three level investment) of taking Muckdweller into Stoneblessed.

This certainly seems to be the easiest way around it. Muckdwellers are monstrous humanoids, so they meet that prereq, and I doubt it would be any harder for them to meet the others than any other character.

[TroubleBrewing]

That was Jacob. He was an awesome build.

Dulcine (sp?) was my favorite build from the contest, and I think is the all time high score winner. May be second-3rd for all contests.

The all-time score winner was Old Lob, unless I'm mistaken.

[Dusk Eclipse]

Wasn't there a thread with all the IC records?

[Chronos]

Huh, I didn't know there was anything out there with LA 0 for Tiny.

<follows links to find out about Muckdwellers>

Ah, Serpent Kingdoms, AKA the Pun-Pun book. That explains it.

[Cieyrin]

Wasn't there a thread with all the IC records?

There was but it hasn't been updated in a good long time, now. The best bet is to bother OMGPonies, since his spreadsheet is probably the most accurate account of such at the moment.

A somewhat dicey alternative to Stoneblessed may be to pursue one of the subtype adding rituals in Savage Species to grab the Gnome subtype, since a measure of a race is generally if the type and subtype matches. At least that's the argument I keep seeing for treating Illumnians as Humans for such effects.

[Curmudgeon]

A somewhat dicey alternative to Stoneblessed may be to pursue one of the subtype adding rituals in Savage Species to grab the Gnome subtype, since a measure of a race is generally if the type and subtype matches.
Strictly verboten. From page 148 of Savage Species:
Ritual of Association
This minor ritual gives the character a racial subtype or type modifier such as gnoll, goblinoid, orc, or reptilian. (This ritual does not grant the human, dwarf, elf, gnome, and halfling subtypes of humanoid.)

[Mantarni]

Can I get a citation for this adaption text, Mantarni? That sounds like the answer to my problems.:smallsmile:

Sorry, forgot I had an account here for a few days.
Copied verbatim from RoS:



Adaptation: This prestige class bears some similarity to the duelist prestige class presented on page 185 of the Dungeon Master's Guide, but some of the blade bravo's class features work best for Small PCs. A straightforward change would involve broadening the racial requirement to allow halflings and perhaps some Small or smaller fey into this prestige class.

Selection bolded for emphasis. A petal is a tiny winged Fey, but the MM3 has it listed as cohort iirc (I'm pretty sure it's <= LA2). Ask your DM about the race and entry requirements.

EDIT: If you don't mind LA, you could get a Pixie (LA4), which would technically qualify: Small Fey, has greater invisibility at will and sprites don't need to make move silently checks when flying (a DM would probably let you get rid of that ability to lower the LA by 1 or so) and could arguably use polymorph self 1/day to shrink to something tiny or smaller if needed.

The problem with tiny is that you have a carrying capacity of around 15, which gets annoying as hell. Small is better, Str10 nets you around 25, so going small and having a few methods to shrink from there is more advisable.

[Chronos]

The problem with tiny is that you have a carrying capacity of around 15, which gets annoying as hell.If you're high enough level that LA +4 races are on the table, then you're high enough level to afford a [Heward's] Handy Haversack. Or just ask the BDF to carry your heavy stuff for you.

[Cieyrin]

If you're high enough level that LA +4 races are on the table, then you're high enough level to afford a [Heward's] Handy Haversack. Or just ask the BDF to carry your heavy stuff for you.

Feh. That's what Donkeys are for. :smalltongue:

[Ravens_cry]

Or just ask the BDF to carry your heavy stuff for you.
Please, it's insensitive to call them a Big Dumb Fighter. I personally prefer "Ablative Armour.":smallamused:

[kardar233]

Feh. That's what Donkeys are for. :smalltongue:

Isn't that what he said?



:smalltongue:

[Heliomance]

Jermlaine (MM2) is another Tiny LA+0 Fey you might be interested in.

Incidentally, it's ungodly for Druids, as they have a redonkulous wisdom bonus.

[Chronos]

Jermlaine (MM2) is another Tiny LA+0 Fey you might be interested in.Monster Manual II doesn't list LA. Is there errata/update somewhere?

[togapika]

If it doesn't list LA that doesn't mean its 0....


On the kobold idea, make it Romeo and Juliet style...:smallwink:

[KicktheCAN]

Monster Manual II doesn't list LA. Is there errata/update somewhere?
The 3.5 update for Monster Manual II lists the LA for every creature.

For those curious, the stats for the Jermlaine are Str -8, Dex +6, Con -2, Int -2, Wis +6, Cha -6. They also get some neat racial skill bonuses, low-light vision, speak with rats (?) and a 40 ft. (!) movement speed.