Paladin Code

[Prospector]

So I'm in a new campaign, playing Synthesist/Paladin of Apsu. I see him as young hero fanatic who now has hero powers. Sort of naive but really smart and has a good heart. I got some really awesome stat rolls (18,17,18,16,15,8), the 18's and the 16 went into the mental stats. As a result I have a very intelligent, very observant and very charismatic character.

Anyway, this is my first time playing Paladin (or lawful good for that matter) and am unsure of how to play code without being a total a-hole (this has been my experience with non-mentally deficient Paladins, always ruining everyone else's good time). But as you can see my Paladin is extremely observant and will probably catch anything iffy the party does. Can anyone give some good advice on how to play this code/alignment without being a d*****? I really don't see this character being one.

[Rubik]

Play 'honorable and caring'. See if your DM will let you alter your code of conduct such that you can REDEEM evil, rather than only being allowed to smite it. Lead by example, and try to be a genuinely good, decent person. Don't preach, don't sermonize. Show people how being good and noble and generous can be rewarding, both in a spiritual manner and a very real one (by gaining allies and goodwill that people are willing to return to you through appreciation). Show a quiet, solid strength of will, rather than being loud and obnoxious. Enjoy life and all it has to offer to a kind soul. Spend time with your friends and loved ones, and invite others to partake of your caring demeanor and friendship.

This really is one of those WWJD moments.

[CommodoreCrunch]

The biggest problem with the Paladin code and people playing Lawful Stupid paladins is that it's often misinterpreted to mean that you have to hold others to your standards or effectively force your own code onto others. This is not the case.


A paladin must be of lawful good alignment and loses all class abilities if she ever willingly commits an evil act. Simple, reasonable, fluffy.


Additionally, a paladin’s code requires that she respect legitimate authority Fair enough. This doesn't mean that every authority figure you run across is legitimate, however. The Lawful Evil dictator of some town you're passing through? You probably don't have to respect him. Its that whole "evil" thing.


act with honor (not lying, not cheating, not using poison, and so forth) This applies to you. You can frown on others for doing such things, but part of being Lawful Good is respecting the freedoms of others. Some people cant defend themselves properly and have to resort to unsavory tactics. So please, cut your party rogue some slack. He's just dirty and underhanded because he's weak.


help those in need (provided they do not use the help for evil or chaotic ends) Can be tricky, but generally not problematic. Just make sure you detect evil on the guy who wants piles of gold for an "orphanage".


and punish those who harm or threaten innocents Usually one of the more problematic ones. The important thing here is to try to keep in mind the levels of severity you see. The grifter who's scamming farmers with a shell game? Don't smite the poor guy, give him a stern talking to, or report him to the local authorities. Smiting someone for a minor transgression is a great way to lose your class abilities if your DM even pretends to care about fluff. Save the smiting for the necromancers who won't stop killing peasants, or for the evil cleric who's secretly turning townspeople into his thralls.

Another important thing to remember: Lawful Good is the sappiest good guy you've ever met. Respect other peoples' rights and freedoms and you'll go a long way towards avoiding paladin pitfalls.

Lastly, don't let your roleplaying back you into a corner. Try to avoid getting to a point where your character has to either convert the party to his ways or leave the party. That's just disruptive. Sadly, though, it happens. RP-wise, Paladin is a very annoying class when played haphazardly, to be honest.

Edit: The above post is also great advice. Never thought to do the Jesus comparison, but there you go.

[ClothedInVelvet]

Sadness. Recognizing all of the evil in the world (and in your companions) will probably make you either very angry or very sad. If you don't want to be smiting them regularly, I would recommend the latter.

Whenever your companions get into something bad, find a quiet spot and begin praying for them. Recognize it's not within your power or your duty to control everyone's actions. Of course you will still fight overt evil that tries to harm others, but that's more of a protective action than a judgmental one.

This is actually pretty realistic. Many good people, when they realize they can't fix every bad thing, begin to despair. It might even be a great RP moment when you basically pray that your god either give you power to eradicate all evils or kill you.

[Coidzor]

Fair enough. This doesn't mean that every authority figure you run across is legitimate, however. The Lawful Evil dictator of some town you're passing through? You probably don't have to respect him. Its that whole "evil" thing.

Alternatively, it could be that the whole dictator thing or the oppression/misrule angle that matters more than the alignment of a ruler.


Can be tricky, but generally not problematic. Just make sure you detect evil on the guy who wants piles of gold for an "orphanage".

And sense motive. Lots of it.

[VanBuren]

Sadness. Recognizing all of the evil in the world (and in your companions) will probably make you either very angry or very sad. If you don't want to be smiting them regularly, I would recommend the latter.

Whenever your companions get into something bad, find a quiet spot and begin praying for them. Recognize it's not within your power or your duty to control everyone's actions. Of course you will still fight overt evil that tries to harm others, but that's more of a protective action than a judgmental one.

This is actually pretty realistic. Many good people, when they realize they can't fix every bad thing, begin to despair. It might even be a great RP moment when you basically pray that your god either give you power to eradicate all evils or kill you.

This can eventually lead to you becoming what TVTropes calls, "The Knight in Sour Armor" which is what happens when you take a character that sees that the world is craptastic place full of suffering and that no matter how hard you fight, you're still not going to make a dent on the macro level. Hell, it probably takes a fraction of the effort that it took to bring good into the world to snuff it out entirely...

...but it's a character that does the right thing because... it's the right thing.

[ClothedInVelvet]

This can eventually lead to you becoming what TVTropes calls, "The Knight in Sour Armor" which is what happens when you take a character that sees that the world is craptastic place full of suffering and that no matter how hard you fight, you're still not going to make a dent on the macro level. Hell, it probably takes a fraction of the effort that it took to bring good into the world to snuff it out entirely...

...but it's a character that does the right thing because... it's the right thing.

Sorry, I just keep getting excited about the RP implications here. There are SO many things your character could go through.

Like VanBuren pointed out, your character does the right thing out of a sense of duty, not out of a belief it will work. But working with your party, he may even realize that together, they can actually push back the darkness. This may lead to some tolerance on his part, as necessary costs for the work being done. Maybe the party will even teach him how to celebrate with a barrel of ale.

And at some point, you've got the noble sacrifice to play. You're already used to fighting against overwhelming odds, so going toe to toe with a powerful demon is no big deal. You've been ready to die since you began your quests.

Fatalism is not a bad thing for a paladin. "Just do what must be done. This may not be happiness, but it is greatness." -George Bernard Shaw

[hewhosaysfish]

I can't believe no-one's said this yet: find out your DM's take is on alignment in general, what it means to be Good, what it means to be Evil and the implications for the paladin's code.

Some DMs have it so that only serial killers and demonic cultists are Evil-aligned while muggers and fraudsters are Neutral; if a Paladin doesn't smite someone who detects as Evil then they fall for shirking their duties, for not acting like a real paladin should.
Other DMs have it so that all manner of petty criminals or merely unpleasant people are Evil (I've even seen one person state that a pub landlord who watered the beer would be Evil, although this was on the Internet); if a Paladin smites one of these people then the DM will make them fall for being the stereotypical smite-happy, Lawful-Stupid Paladin.

If your Paladin detects that an NPCs is Evil then you have a choice to smite or not to smite; one is right(eous), the other will make you fall; and if you don't know where the DM sets the boundaries of Evil then you have no idea which is which.

And if your DM claims that he is running alignment "exactly as described in the books" then just laugh, point him at any alignment debate on this any forum and tell him "So is everyone".

[hamishspence]

Some DMs have it so that only serial killers and demonic cultists are Evil-aligned while muggers and fraudsters are Neutral; if a Paladin doesn't smite someone who detects as Evil then they fall for shirking their duties, for not acting like a real paladin should.

In older editions, this was half-true. While Evil people weren't always this evil, the Detect Evil spell was written in such a way as to only Detect the vilest of the vile.

Since 3rd ed though, this hasn't been the case.



Other DMs have it so that all manner of petty criminals or merely unpleasant people are Evil (I've even seen one person state that a pub landlord who watered the beer would be Evil, although this was on the Internet); if a Paladin smites one of these people then the DM will make them fall for being the stereotypical smite-happy, Lawful-Stupid Paladin.

Text in the Eberron Campaign Setting book strongly supports this interpretation. And given that "fraud" and "cheating" are suggested to be Evil acts in BoVD, and that in Champions of Ruin it suggests repeated Evil acts will change a character's alignment to evil, it's a fairly consistant one.

[Frosty]

Another important thing to remember: Lawful Good is the sappiest good guy you've ever met. Respect other peoples' rights and freedoms and you'll go a long way towards avoiding paladin pitfallsSo the Star Trek Federation is Lawful Good (at last in its stated precept)?

[nyarlathotep]

So the Star Trek Federation is Lawful Good (at last in its stated precept)?

The organization as a whole yes, but not everyone within *cough*Janeway*cough*

[marcielle]

How about an elightened serene Paladin? He understands good isn't the intrinsic way of most mortals and not everyone is strong enough to walk the straight and narrow. While he dissaproves of the Rogue's stealing and lying, greater good can be served by trying to come to a compromise and attempted reform than by simple confrontation. If you just confront him, he might become hostile, but if you can convince him to only steal from evil, you have achieved twice as much good as only stopping him.

Anyone who tries to confront you should not be talked on one on one. Inter party conflict should be a matter for the whole party.

You have to respect the law but remember that the word of gods overides those of men. If you really need to break a law, try to arrange it so it serves your gods specific tenants. That ought to get by any reasonable DM.

TLDR; Think Santa Claus, not Judge Dredd.

[Gavinfoxx]

I wrote a custom paladin's code (full lawful good paladin type) with my DM... here's what it contained:

show kindness to children and others that are weak

never allow the weak to be the victim of the strong

defend hearth and home, family and friends, stranger and ally, and especially defend innocents

once given, a paladin's word is a contract

refrain from abusing or overusing intoxicants

when possible, work for and give to charity

it is an unspeakable act to deny any soul its rightful afterlife

never use lethal poison

respect life, even that of the foe, only kill when necessary, and show quarter if possible

respect the terms of an honorable and fair duel

never willfully commit an evil act, and combat evil whenever possible. This does not mean that it is appropriate to be violent against evil all the time; seek justice tempered with mercy more than a violent solution.

use power to aid and help others, not towards evil ends. do not seek out power simply to have power.

be courteous in all you do, and seek to never be crude.

be humble before the forces of light and good

uphold virtuous laws whenever possible

lead by example

respect and hold dear the trust that others place in you

be brave in pursuit of goodness

show kindness towards guests and honor the traditions of hospitality

care for and be kind towards your mount

[Eldest]

Basically, don't force your code on the others. Also, no detect-smiteing.
There is a really cool story of how a paladin ought to be roleplayed somewhere on the forum, I just don't know where it was. It was basically the paladin (who quietly disaproved of evil actions but said nothing) and the cleric (who actively tried to convert the other charectors), with the paladin being just awesome.
You know what, I'm butchering the story. Can somebody find it?

[marcielle]

Thats some nice stuff.
I always thought it might be awesome if Paladins had slightly different codes for certain gods.

Like Pelor would not suffer the prescence of undeath and those who would raise them.

Cuthbert would uphold law, even if it meant denying the individual his rights.

Obad Hai would dissallow the defiling of wild places.

That sorta thing. Also, I never understood why Clerics aren't bound by a code. They should be even MORE strict since teh rely even more on the direct blessings of the gods.

[marcielle]

Thats some nice stuff.
I always thought it might be awesome if Paladins had slightly different codes for certain gods.

Like Pelor would not suffer the prescence of undeath and those who would raise them.

Cuthbert would uphold law, even if it meant denying the individual his rights.

Obad Hai would dissallow the defiling of wild places.

That sorta thing. Also, I never understood why Clerics aren't bound by a code. They should be even MORE strict since teh rely even more on the direct blessings of the gods.

[hamishspence]

The individual campaign books sometimes have deity dogma- Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting for example. These would be the cleric code (and the modifications to existing paladin code).

[Frosty]

The organization as a whole yes, but not everyone within *cough*Janeway*cough*Also, Cisko is not Lawful Good.

Paraphrasing that one Cardassian (Garrack was it?): "The price for peace in the alpha quadrant was the life of ONE innocent Romulan Senator, and the self-respect of ONE Starfleet Officer. I think that's a pretty good deal."

He's Neutral Good at best. That line is one of the best lines from Deep Space 9 I think.

[nyarlathotep]

Also, Cisko is not Lawful Good.

Paraphrasing that one Cardassian (Garrack was it?): "The price for peace in the alpha quadrant was the life of ONE innocent Romulan Senator, and the self-respect of ONE Starfleet Officer. I think that's a pretty good deal."

He's Neutral Good at best. That line is one of the best lines from Deep Space 9 I think.

I would say that he is trying to be lawful, and to be fair that wasn't his doing.

[Rubik]

The standard paladin class has nothing to do with gods; it's powered by the ideal of Righteousness (which is more Self-Righteousness as written, but whatever).

Just sayin'.

Also, GavinFoxx, I love your CoC.

[Shadowknight12]

Play a paladin that doesn't sweat the small stuff. Kind of like Roy, in the sense that while he might disapprove of the rogue's rampant greed and the Chaotic Evil teammate's appalling lack of empathy, he knows that if he gets stressed out on every little thing they do, he's not gonna live to defeat his first tyrant or demon lord.

Also, what Rubik said about leading by example. Combine my suggestion with his for optimal non-a-holeness.

A nice way to avoid discriminating the paladin is to have the DM make everyone write codes of conduct, to let everyone know how much of a non-big-deal they are. Have the Lawful Neutral guy list all the exact norms he must obey, have the Chaotic Evil rant about how being evil doesn't mean being stupid, and so on.

It's an activity for the whole family party!

[Frosty]

I would say that he is trying to be lawful, and to be fair that wasn't his doing.He participated. Well, Cisko at least isn't on the Paladin level of LG.

[hamishspence]

Play a paladin that doesn't sweat the small stuff. Kind of like Roy, in the sense that while he might disapprove of the rogue's rampant greed and the Chaotic Evil teammate's appalling lack of empathy, he knows that if he gets stressed out on every little thing they do, he's not gonna live to defeat his first tyrant or demon lord.

The 3.0 book Defenders of the Faith had something along those lines. As well as discussing temporary association with evildoers to both defeat the greater evil, and redeem them- possible without falling, if risky.

[Shadowknight12]

The 3.0 book Defenders of the Faith had something along those lines. As well as discussing temporary association with evildoers to both defeat the greater evil, and redeem them- possible without falling, if risky.

*shrug* The bit about not associating with Evil is frankly stupid, since it contradicts the very notion of redemption. You can't redeem an evil-doer without associating with him, and one of the main shticks of Good is redemption, so that bit of the paladin code actively contradicts one of the major tenets of what a paladin is about.

So either paladins can't redeem (and are therefore not true champions of good but Holy Hand Grenades) or a paladin can use the 'I'm redeeming him!' excuse whenever he wants to associate with evil. Sleep with a succubus? Sure! He's redeeming her, you see.

[Little Brother]

The organization as a whole yes, but not everyone within *cough*Janeway*cough*
There is NO way the Shatman is Lawful. Picard is most of the time, but he'd still probably round off to Neutral Good.

Thats some nice stuff.
I always thought it might be awesome if Paladins had slightly different codes for certain gods.

Like Pelor would not suffer the prescence of undeath and those who would raise them.But since when has Pelor been Neutral Good? (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19558798/Pelor,_the_Burning_Hate)

Also, Cisko is not Lawful Good.I dunno, he could be when you think about it. Yes, he breaks the law from time to time, but for the goal of peace/blah blah blah, he only does so when necessary, sticks to his beliefs and code of honor(Mostly), and so on. Not incredibly lawful, but remember, lawful doesn't mean resident of Whatever plane is lawful neutral.

Paraphrasing that one Cardassian (Garrack was it?): "The price for peace in the alpha quadrant was the life of ONE innocent Romulan Senator, and the self-respect of ONE Starfleet Officer. I think that's a pretty good deal."

He's Neutral Good at best. That line is one of the best lines from Deep Space 9 I think.Agreed, but when it comes down to it, he's also one of the most good characters on the show.

[Frosty]

There is NO way the Shatman is Lawful. Picard is most of the time, but he'd still probably round off to Neutral Good.
But since when has Pelor been Neutral Good? (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19558798/Pelor,_the_Burning_Hate)
I dunno, he could be when you think about it. Yes, he breaks the law from time to time, but for the goal of peace/blah blah blah, he only does so when necessary, sticks to his beliefs and code of honor(Mostly), and so on. Not incredibly lawful, but remember, lawful doesn't mean resident of Whatever plane is lawful neutral.
Agreed, but when it comes down to it, he's also one of the most good characters on the show.
Good? Certainly. Lawful? Not quite as sold on.