Best Small Race for Paladin

[ClothedInVelvet]

I'm making a Paladin build and I want to try using a small race (I'm already stuck with levels in Paladin, why not go all the way?)

But all gnomes and halflings lose str. I'll probably add the dragonborn template also.

Anyone got any ideas? On race or in general?

[Keneth]

If you're playing Pathfinder then halfling and you can use a bow instead, otherwise a gnome with a steed and lance should offset the lower damage output from the strength penalty.

[Greenish]

Overall, the best options are probably Strongheart Halfling (because an extra feat is an extra feat) or Kobold (because, well, there is no end for shenanigans).

If you want a small race that doesn't lose Str, first one to pop in my head is Poison Dusk Lizardfolk (MMIII). +1 LA, but if you can buyout, a decent choice. Comes with Cha penalty, though, but that's what Magic-Blooded is for.

[Keneth]

Do note that while a kobold paladin would certainly give you the groundwork for a better build, it's not exactly the easiest character to roleplay. :smallbiggrin:

[ClothedInVelvet]

If you're playing Pathfinder then halfling and you can use a bow instead, otherwise a gnome with a steed and lance should offset the lower damage output from the strength penalty.

I'm in 3.5. But why wouldn't the ranged halfling work? Some Paladin, some Halfling outrider... What do you think?

[Greenish]

Do note that while a kobold paladin would certainly give you the groundwork for a better build, it's not exactly the easiest character to roleplay. :smallbiggrin:Well, kobolds have a strong Lawful bend, so you're halfway there already. :smallwink:

[Keneth]

I'm in 3.5. But why wouldn't the ranged halfling work? The ranged paladin is only really viable in Pathfinder due to the large damage boost. In 3.5 you'll be little more than an annoyance, unless you intend to treat paladin as just a dip for your build, but that's a nightmare to justify in-character. :smallsmile:

[Feytalist]

I'm in 3.5. But why wouldn't the ranged halfling work? Some Paladin, some Halfling outrider... What do you think?

Smite evil is melee only.

Although elf paladin racial substitution level gives you ranged smite. You can maybe shoehorn that into halfling paladin as well.

Mix with ranger and Devoted Tracker, and you have a Special Mount Animal Companion. Which is pretty cool. Or Wild Plains Outrider, really.

[ClothedInVelvet]

The ranged paladin is only really viable in Pathfinder due to the large damage boost. In 3.5 you'll be little more than an annoyance, unless you intend to treat paladin as just a dip for your build, but that's a nightmare to justify in-character. :smallsmile:

That's too bad, since I just found the Water Halfling (-2 Str, +2 Dex, +2 Con) in UA. I might just go with it. A few levels of Paladin, a few levels of Cleric, and whatever else we need.

Can we do it?

[ClothedInVelvet]

This can be done. It can certainly be done badly, but there's got to be advantages.

A dragonborn water halfling with a 32 point build can pull out 10/10/18/8/16/16. That's a good start, no? Drop in Zen Archery and Ranged Smite (BoED)?

This will go very poorly if I do it all by myself, so throw ideas at the wall, see what sticks.

[Fouredged Sword]

If you are going both cleric and paladin, you may consider simplifying the build by taking PRC paladin in place of paladin.

[LordBlades]

If you're interested in some alternate suggestions: kobold paladin 2(or as little as possible if more than 2)/sorcerer/spellsword/abjurant champion. Greater Draconic Rite of Passage and Loredrake can give you back quite a few lost caster levels.

[ClothedInVelvet]

I think it's fair to say I'm going for the Dragon Steed feat so I can have a Gold Dragon as my steed. Does prestige paladin get that?

LordBlades, I have honestly not considered combining sorcerer and paladin. How potent is that? Sell me on the idea.

[Amphetryon]

Wild Dwarf (Races of Faerun) is another Small race with no STR penalty. They get free Poison Use, which is almost certainly a waste unless you're using Ravages and saying that counts.

[LordBlades]

I think it's fair to say I'm going for the Dragon Steed feat so I can have a Gold Dragon as my steed. Does prestige paladin get that?

LordBlades, I have honestly not considered combining sorcerer and paladin. How potent is that? Sell me on the idea.

It's pretty potent. Assuming equal level of optimization it's quite a bit above standard paladins. The main idea behind it is using sorcerer spells to buff yourself and then fight it out

What you gain compared to standard paladin:
-more (and better) spells(both awesome buffs like Polymorph and Bite of the werebear and utility stuff like teleport, rope trick etc.).
-awesome charisma sinergy (you use it both for casting and saves)

What you lose:
-bit of HP (but gain greatly improved defenses).
-bit of BAB (but as long as you get 16 BAB which is easy to do your to hit total would usually be higher than a standard paladin due to better buffs).

[ClothedInVelvet]

So that's the famed Sorcadin gish? I'm more impressed than I thought I would be, but I'm reserving that for another build.

For now, I'm thinking a cleric/prestige paladin. Do I take 2 or 3 levels of prestige paladin? And what do I do after that?

[ClothedInVelvet]

Okay, I have a Dragonborn Water Halfling Cleric 6/Prestige Paladin 3. Where do I go from here? Is there actually a way to make an archery build make sense? Or am I just going to be focusing on casting prestige classes?

Suggestions?

[Gwendol]

Mounted archery can be good for a halfling; taking levels in halfling outrider helps with that, and it also advances paladin.

[Fouredged Sword]

I am going to go out somewhere else and suggest ninja into whisper knife.

Yes it is kinda away from the build you have set up, but the whisperknife + craven will really help your damage.