Rolling ALL the Dice

[Golden Ladybug]

Hey Playground, how are things going?

So, for the first time ever, I've actually properly read through the Tome of Battle. Up to now, I've never really liked it; sure it helps Melee out more than anything else printed for 3.5, but I've got Nostalgic Loyalty to the Simple Fighter and Barbarian. But anyway, reading through, I found a Devoted Spirit Stance called Aura of Chaos. When you roll for a Melee attack while in this stance, you can reroll any dice that rolled Max damage (6 on a d6, for example) and then add that result on top of the roll. And keep rolling until you didn't have any more max damage rolls left.

I fell in love.

So, what I need help with is finding the way to make a Character that rolls as Many Dice as possible to maximise the returns on Order of Chaos.

Since it is a 6th Level Stance, it does require an Initiator Level of 11...which means that we only need to take 8 Levels of Crusader to gain access to it (by taking 6 or more levels of a Non-Initiator Class).

So, how do you proceed to get the absolute most out of this Stance?

[Knaight]

That depends on the level of cheese. That said, at the higher end:

1d2 Crusader: You take a weapon that deals 1d2 damage, use that stance, and get a feat that lets you re roll 1s. Instant infinite damage. This is a terrible idea for an actual game, but does provide an upper bound.

More reasonable:
Two weapon fighting, reroll 1s, use daggers, get sneak attack.

[Golden Ladybug]

...what.

That's a thing? Seriously?

I need to play more ToB, because I've obviously missed out on some crucial things :smallbiggrin:

[NOhara24]

...what.

That's a thing? Seriously?

I need to play more ToB, because I've obviously missed out on some crucial things :smallbiggrin:

Yep. That's a thing. There's some pretty cool stuff in the ToB besides that obnoxious infinite loop though. Any DM with half a brain would throw the book at you after you tried it the first time, since it's essentially one shotting any enemy. If it were me, though, and I had a player try it, I'd make them roll a d2 until whatever it is that they were attacking died. And with an initiator level of 11, chances are that would be a lot of coin flipping :smallbiggrin:

[ClothedInVelvet]

You want to go with smaller dice. Warning, rough math below.

100 d4s

1's= 25
2's= 50
3's= 75
4's=
4+1(7)=35
4+2(6)=36
4+3(6)=42
4+4(6)=
4+4+1(2)=18
4+4+2(2)=20
4+4+3(1)=11
4+4+4(1)=12
Avg: 324
Avg per die: 3.24 Average Increase per die: 0.74

100 d6s:
1's=17
2's=34
3's=51
4's=68
5's=80
6's=
6+1(3)=21
6+2(3)=24
6+3(3)=27
6+4(3)=30
6+5(2)=22
6+6(2)=24+3(misc)
Avg: 401
Avg per die: 4.01 Average increase per die: 0.51

[noparlpf]

That depends on the level of cheese. That said, at the higher end:

1d2 Crusader: You take a weapon that deals 1d2 damage, use that stance, and get a feat that lets you re roll 1s. Instant infinite damage. This is a terrible idea for an actual game, but does provide an upper bound.

More reasonable:
Two weapon fighting, reroll 1s, use daggers, get sneak attack.

So that's the d2 Crusader I keep hearing about. What feat lets you reroll 1s?

[Lonely Tylenol]

Deadly Precision lets you reroll 1s on your sneak attack, but Imbued Healing (Luck domain) is what you really want here, as it explicitly lets you treat all 1 rolls as a 2, which feeds into itself a lot better than Deadly Precision does. Infinitely, as it were.

Here's how the D2 Crusader would look in an actual game if it got played:

DM: "You are now next to the cave troll."
D2 Crusader: "I stab it with my dagger."
DM: "OK. Roll to hit."
/D2 Crusader rolls a 17
D2 Crusader: "Do I hit?"
DM: "Yes, you can now roll for damage.
/D2 Crusader grabs a fistful of coins and hurls them across the table at the DM
DM: "Ow! Ack! Ow! What the Hell did you do that for!?"
D2 Crusader: "Hold on, I get to change all my 1s to 2s and reroll my 2s..."
/D2 Crusader grabs another fistful of coins and throws them at the DM
DM: "Ow! Stop! It's dead! Stop it!"
/D2 Crusader grabs another handful of coins, jumps up on the table, and showers the defeated DM in change
D2 Crusader: I MAKE IT RAIN, I MAKE IT RAIN, I MAKE IT RAIN ON THEM TRO'S

[CTrees]

DM: "You are now next to the cave troll."
D2 Crusader: "I stab it with my dagger."
DM: "OK. Roll to hit."
/D2 Crusader rolls a 17
D2 Crusader: "Do I hit?"
DM: "Yes, you can now roll for damage.
/D2 Crusader grabs a fistful of coins and hurls them across the table at the DM
DM: "Ow! Ack! Ow! What the Hell did you do that for!?"
D2 Crusader: "Hold on, I get to change all my 1s to 2s and reroll my 2s..."
/D2 Crusader grabs another fistful of coins and throws them at the DM
DM: "Ow! Stop! It's dead! Stop it!"
/D2 Crusader grabs another handful of coins, jumps up on the table, and showers the defeated DM in change
D2 Crusader: I MAKE IT RAIN, I MAKE IT RAIN, I MAKE IT RAIN ON THEM TRO'S

I didn't think one could cast Tasha's Hideous Laughter through the Internet, but my failed will save has proven me wrong.

[hewhosaysfish]

You want to go with smaller dice. Warning, rough math below.


Less rough maths:
If x is the average result of rolling a d4 and rolling-and-adding on a 4 then
x = (1 + 2 + 3 + (4+x) ) /4
4x = 1 +2+3+ 4+ x
3x = 1+2+3+4
x = 10/3 = 3 + 1/3

With the average result of a typical d4 roll being 2+1/2 then that gives us an improvement of of 5/6

If y is the similar result for a d6
y = 21/5 = 4+1/5
This is an improvement of 7/10 from the usual 3.5 average.

Generalising, the result from a dN will be R = ((N^2) + N)/(2N-2)
and the improvement I = (N+1)/(2N-2)

and since increasing N by one will increase the numerator of I by one but the denominator by 2 then it can be seen that we maximise I by minimising N.

So smaller dice are your friends!

(Disclaimer: the above equations do not include the account for the probability of slapped around the head with a DMG, a probability which becomes non-trivial when N=1)

[ClothedInVelvet]

Yeah...

That's what I was doing in my head. :smallwink:

[NOhara24]

D2 Crusader: I MAKE IT RAIN, I MAKE IT RAIN, I MAKE IT RAIN ON THEM TRO'S

So many sig-able quotes lately. Do you mind?

[lorddrake]

Let me ask you guys something. Wouldn't some DR end the loop? Like this: I give a gazzilion 1 of damage, but the guy absorbs 5 every attack.

[ClothedInVelvet]

Let me ask you guys something. Wouldn't some DR end the loop? Like this: I give a gazzilion 1 of damage, but the guy absorbs 5 every attack.

That depends almost entirely on how you're doing the damage. If you're throwing 1,000,000 darts each round and they're all doing 1d4, DR 5/- will stop all of that damage. If you've got a sword that does 500,000d12 damage, DR 5/- will stop 5 of it. Leaving the other 3,249,995 (on average) to obliterate you.

[Lonely Tylenol]

I didn't think one could cast Tasha's Hideous Laughter through the Internet, but my failed will save has proven me wrong.

YES! Fall prone and quiver in subservience to my awesome power!


So many sig-able quotes lately. Do you mind?

Be my guest. :smallsmile:

[lorddrake]

That depends almost entirely on how you're doing the damage. If you're throwing 1,000,000 darts each round and they're all doing 1d4, DR 5/- will stop all of that damage. If you've got a sword that does 500,000d12 damage, DR 5/- will stop 5 of it. Leaving the other 3,249,995 (on average) to obliterate you.

I meant in this d2 crusader loop we were talking.

[FearlessGnome]

I meant in this d2 crusader loop we were talking.

You are not rolling lots of attacks. You are rolling for one attack that uses d2+d2+d2+... DR applies only once.

[The Underlord]

You guys missed a crucial part in the d2 crusader. You have to IHS common sense away first! :smallwink:

Anyway, iron heart surge is the next broken thing in ToB(probably the only one by it self). It lets you end in effecct or condition IIRC.

[ClothedInVelvet]

You guys missed a crucial part in the d2 crusader. You have to IHS common sense away first! :smallwink:

Anyway, iron heart surge is the next broken thing in ToB(probably the only one by it self). It lets you end in effecct or condition IIRC.

Not just any effect or condition...

Wait for it...

It has to have a duration.

[Knaight]

You guys missed a crucial part in the d2 crusader. You have to IHS common sense away first! :smallwink:

Anyway, iron heart surge is the next broken thing in ToB(probably the only one by it self). It lets you end in effecct or condition IIRC.

White Raven Tactics is probably a comfortable third. Beyond those three things, ToB is a very balanced book.

[Heliomance]

Not just any effect or condition...

Wait for it...

It has to have a duration.

No, there's one other restriction:
It has to be affecting you.

[FearlessGnome]

Not just any effect or condition...

Wait for it...

It has to have a duration.
No, there's one other restriction:
It has to be affecting you.:smallfurious: RAAAGE!

[koscum]

Deadly Precision lets you reroll 1s on your sneak attack, but Imbued Healing (Luck domain) is what you really want here, as it explicitly lets you treat all 1 rolls as a 2, which feeds into itself a lot better than Deadly Precision does. Infinitely, as it were.

Here's how the D2 Crusader would look in an actual game if it got played:

DM: "You are now next to the cave troll."
D2 Crusader: "I stab it with my dagger."
DM: "OK. Roll to hit."
/D2 Crusader rolls a 17
D2 Crusader: "Do I hit?"
DM: "Yes, you can now roll for damage.
/D2 Crusader grabs a fistful of coins and hurls them across the table at the DM
DM: "Ow! Ack! Ow! What the Hell did you do that for!?"
D2 Crusader: "Hold on, I get to change all my 1s to 2s and reroll my 2s..."
/D2 Crusader grabs another fistful of coins and throws them at the DM
DM: "Ow! Stop! It's dead! Stop it!"
/D2 Crusader grabs another handful of coins, jumps up on the table, and showers the defeated DM in change
D2 Crusader: I MAKE IT RAIN, I MAKE IT RAIN, I MAKE IT RAIN ON THEM TRO'S
Now I have to get out of my comfy bed and sit on a chair just so that I can fall off it 'cause I laughed too hard.

Bookmarked.

[CommodoreCrunch]

more reasonable:
Two weapon fighting, reroll 1s, use daggers, get sneak attack. Additionally, if you can convince your DM to allow Pathfinder material, there's a rogue archetype that gives d8 sneak attack with dagger-like weapons, but d4s for everything else. You'd have to AVOID daggers with this, and probably restructure the archetype's ability into a feat or something, since it doesn't replace any class features, but it could work. If you do go this route, a light hammer gives you the same damage and range option as a dagger, you just lose the high crit range.

[Douglas]

No, there's one other restriction:
It has to be affecting you.
It also has to be a spell, condition, or effect. Unfortunately, while 'spell' and 'condition' are pretty well defined, 'effect' is rather more vague. Still, I doubt you'd have an easy time finding a DM that would agree that the Sun is an 'effect' with regard to IHS, so the classic "I IHS the Sun away" meme is pure exaggeration that doesn't actually work even by RAW.

[CommodoreCrunch]

It also has to be a spell, condition, or effect. Unfortunately, while 'spell' and 'condition' are pretty well defined, 'effect' is rather more vague. Still, I doubt you'd have an easy time finding a DM that would agree that the Sun is an 'effect' with regard to IHS, so the classic "I IHS the Sun away" meme is pure exaggeration that doesn't actually work even by RAW. I'm more partial to the "I have a dead friend" use of IHS. Granted, as a DM I'd just say "You IHS and suddenly you realize you never actually liked him in the first place." But I like the example.

[Douglas]

I'm more partial to the "I have a dead friend" use of IHS. Granted, as a DM I'd just say "You IHS and suddenly you realize you never actually liked him in the first place." But I like the example.
That would be the 'condition' use, right? Sorry, but "I have a dead friend" isn't in the list (http://www.d20srd.org/indexes/conditions.htm).

[Kurald Galain]

Speaking of rolling all the dice...

There's a 9th-level spell called Dice Storm, which lets you roll all the dice you own and deals that much damage. Save for half :smalltongue:

[CTrees]

It also has to be a spell, condition, or effect. Unfortunately, while 'spell' and 'condition' are pretty well defined, 'effect' is rather more vague. Still, I doubt you'd have an easy time finding a DM that would agree that the Sun is an 'effect' with regard to IHS, so the classic "I IHS the Sun away" meme is pure exaggeration that doesn't actually work even by RAW.

The sun illuminates and warms things. Those illumination and warming effects may be affecting your IHS-capable character, and they have a duration (several hours, years, billions of years, nearly infinite, infinite, whatever - in D&D it depends on both definition and cosmology, but either way, it's a duration). Thus, any noticeable traits of the sun can be IHS'd away. Don't believe you can actually remove the sun itself, but if it's not putting out light, heat, gravity, or anything else... it may as well be gone.

What's more interesting is when you consider a situation like... "By Crom, that makes me angry! IRON HEART SURGE! Hey, now I'm suddenly okay with it, since it's "making me angry" effect has ended. Dude... sweet..."

That or just IHS'ing gravity away to gain flight.

[Vizzerdrix]

Speaking of rolling all the dice...

There's a 9th-level spell called Dice Storm, which lets you roll all the dice you own and deals that much damage. Save for half :smalltongue:

What book is that in? I needs it!

[Douglas]

Probably the closest definition I can think of to what the writers of IHS meant by 'effect', which I think most DMs would agree with (possibly with a minor edit):
Effect - discrete self-contained game mechanic that is not part of the natural environment and has a well defined non-rule origin or cause.

Sunlight, the sun's heat, and gravity are all part of the natural environment. Being mad at something only qualifies if a game mechanic is forcing you to be angry, such as if someone cast Rage on you. You could, for example, use IHS to end the restrictions forced on you by someone using the Goad feat.

[Big Fau]

You guys missed a crucial part in the d2 crusader. You have to IHS common sense away first! :smallwink:


Not just any effect or condition...

Wait for it...

It has to have a duration.

Insert that Touhou meme about common sense here.

And my usual plug. (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=335.0) YYMV on the quality or what you agree with, but this errata is undeniably better than what WotC put forward.

[Geigan]

Is your character's life a drag? Is that monster's spell like ability hindering your effectiveness? Has the enemy spellcaster got you locked down with some nasty effect? Are you tired of the mild discomfort the sun's rays are making you feel?

Then maybe Iron Heart Surge is right for you. Anyone can take it with a single level in warblade, or a couple of martial study feats. It even works in antimagic fields! With pre-approval* you can even get your own 30 day trial of Iron Heart Surge, where we'll send you an Iron Heart vest with the maneuver in it to try for free.** Iron Heart Surge will end any one effect bothering you at the price of a single standard action. Any effect can be ended as long as it has a duration and you're able to move.

Ask your DM if Iron Heart Surge is right for you.:smallwink:

Side effects may include: Loss of the Sun, gravity deficiency, head trauma from flying books, the sudden urge to shout "BY CROOOOOOOOM!!!!"

Women who are nursing, pregnant, or may become pregnant should avoid using Iron Heart Surge.

The makers of Tome of Battle are not responsible for any harm caused to the campaign by misuse of Iron Heart Surge.

*pre-approval only for those with at least one Iron Heart maneuver
**free or with a single easy payment of 3000gp

Do you want reverse all the bad things that can happen to your character? Try Iron Heart Surge today!:smallcool:

[lorddrake]

Is your character's life a drag? Is that monster's spell like ability hindering your effectiveness? Has the enemy spellcaster got you locked down with some nasty effect? Are you tired of the mild discomfort the sun's rays are making you feel?

Then maybe Iron Heart Surge is right for you. Anyone can take it with a single level in warblade, or a couple of martial study feats. It even works in antimagic fields! With pre-approval* you can even get your own 30 day trial of Iron Heart Surge, where we'll send you an Iron Heart vest with the maneuver in it to try for free.** Iron Heart Surge will end any one effect bothering you at the price of a single standard action. Any effect can be ended as long as it has a duration and you're able to move.

Ask your DM if Iron Heart Surge is right for you.:smallwink:

Side effects may include: Loss of the Sun, gravity deficiency, head trauma from flying books, the sudden urge to shout "BY CROOOOOOOOM!!!!"

Women who are nursing, pregnant, or may become pregnant should avoid using Iron Heart Surge.

The makers of Tome of Battle are not responsible for any harm caused to the campaign by misuse of Iron Heart Surge.

*pre-approval only for those with at least one Iron Heart maneuver
**free or with a single easy payment of 3000gp

Do you want reverse all the bad things that can happen to your character? Try Iron Heart Surge today!:smallcool:

I couldn't laugh as hard as I wanted because I was at work. Can I IHS my work away since I can move and it has a 8h duration, doc?

[Mercenary Pen]

I couldn't laugh as hard as I wanted because I was at work. Can I IHS my work away since I can move and it has a 8h duration, doc?

We can go better than that, take out as big a loan as your character possibly can, then IHS the repayments away... They do have a duration, right?

[CommodoreCrunch]

We can go better than that, take out as big a loan as your character possibly can, then IHS the repayments away... They do have a duration, right? Or even better; rob a bank in broad daylight, plead guilty and then IHS the jail sentence away.

[Mercenary Pen]

Or even better; rob a bank in broad daylight, plead guilty and then IHS the jail sentence away.

Fine, we execute bank robbers here- and we confiscate the proceeds of any crime.

[Siosilvar]

[Repayments] do have a duration, right?

Only if you intend on actually repaying them.

[Mercenary Pen]

Only if you intend on actually repaying them.

Multiple personality character... One of me intended to repay, but the other one of me used Iron Heart Surge.:smallwink: