Warlocks and Scrolls

[Vowtz]

Can a 12th level warlock use "Imbue Item" to create a scroll of a 9th level spell?

Reading DMG p. 287 and Complete Arcane p. 8 I couldn't find anything that would prevent that.

[Psyren]

Yes, and doing so would be a DC 24 UMD check if the spell is arcane. At level 12 he would have 15 ranks in UMD and be able to take 10, thus auto-succeeding.

Divine would be harder at DC 34; he would fail on a roll of 18 or lower without any boosts (Cha, etc.)

Actually casting from the scroll once created is trickier - unless he has a 19 in Wis and Cha, he will need a separate UMD check to emulate the necessary ability score.

[Vowtz]

Actually casting from the scroll once created is trickier - unless he has a 19 in Wis and Cha, he will need a separate UMD check to emulate the necessary ability score.



Use a Scroll:
...
The DC is equal to 20 + the caster level of the spell you are
trying to cast from the scroll. For instance, to cast web (a 2nd-level
wizard spell) from a scroll, you would need a Use Magic Device
check result of 23 or better, since the minimum caster level for web
is 3rd level. See the Dungeon Master’s Guide for more information on
scrolls.
So, a 12th level warlock with +27(37 if he takes 10) in Use magic device could create and use a 9th level wizard spell scroll without chance of failure?

This would require 4 days of work creating the scroll and 153 XP, right?

[Psyren]

So, a 12th level warlock with +27(37 if he takes 10) in Use magic device could create and use a 9th level wizard spell scroll without chance of failure?

This would require 4 days of work creating the scroll and 153 XP, right?

Yes and yes. Having a UMD check of 37 would also allow him to easily emulate the 19 needed to cast from the scroll if his own ability scores are not high enough. (37 - 15 = 22)

[Douglas]

While Imbue Item would allow him to ignore the spell requirement for crafting, it does nothing for caster level. A scroll of a 9th level spell has a minimum caster level of 17, and thus cannot normally be crafted by anyone who doesn't have at least caster level 17. A level 12 Warlock's caster level is 12, so scrolls of 9th level spells would be beyond his ability.

[Vowtz]

While Imbue Item would allow him to ignore the spell requirement for crafting, it does nothing for caster level. A scroll of a 9th level spell has a minimum caster level of 17, and thus cannot normally be crafted by anyone who doesn't have at least caster level 17. A level 12 Warlock's caster level is 12, so scrolls of 9th level spells would be beyond his ability.

I thought that too, but there is not a caster level requirement in scribe scroll feat, nor in scroll creation rules on DMG, nor in Imbue item class feature.

[Douglas]

A creator can create an item at a lower caster level than her own, but never lower than the minimum level needed to cast the needed spell. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/creatingMagicItems.htm)

[Vowtz]

A creator can create an item at a lower caster level than her own, but never lower than the minimum level needed to cast the needed spell. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/creatingMagicItems.htm)Thanks, that's the information I was looking for.

But even so, on Imbue Item class feature we have:

"If the check succeeds, the warlock can create the item as if
he had cast the required spell."

Even if he has to use his own caster level, couldn't he just Emulate a Class Feature for a caster level of 17?

[Psyren]

Well... Artificers spell out that you have to meet the caster level req, and can't UMD your way around it by emulating. Warlocks don't, so it's a gray area/DM call, but I think it would be fair to force them to wait or boost their CL.

(They can always just UMD a bead of karma and/or some other stuff.)

[Vowtz]

It's not possible to emulate a higher caster level for crafting, because Emulate a Class Feature clearly states that it is used to activate a magic item, and the warlock is not doing that.

that text:

"If the check succeeds, the warlock can create the item as if
he had cast the required spell."

makes it clear that he uses his own caster level for the task.

You would need some other means, like feats or prestige classes, to efectively raise your caster level to create higher level scrolls.


Thanks for the help Psyren and douglas, now this issue is clear to me.

[Psyren]

You would need some other means, like feats or prestige classes, to efectively raise your caster level to create higher level scrolls.


Items are by far the easiest way. In addition to UMD'ing a Bead of Karma, you can UMD spells like Greater Consumptive Field as well. Since all you need is +5 it should be a cinch.

[nedz]

So you need to craft a number of items to bump your CL first.
That could take a bit of effort.

[Psyren]

So you need to craft a number of items to bump your CL first.
That could take a bit of effort.

Perhaps, but think of it this way: If the cost of {buying item that needs 9th-level spell} is greater than {crafting item that needs 9th + items that raise CL to 17} and you have enough extra XP, then it's generally worth it to craft instead. It's even more worth it if you have non-item CL boosts, such as from your feats, race, working in a magical location etc. Even better is if the CL-boosting item in question can be reused once crafted, thus letting you use it for multiple scrolls.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Don't forget your two-level dip in Chameleon for the floating feat so you don't have to blow such a precious resource doing nothing but scroll creation...

But yea, the rules you are looking for are under Item Creation, and Minimum Caster Level. Scroll about half-way down here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/creatingMagicItems.htm) until you hit the table Base Magic Supplies and XP Cost to Scribe a Scroll (By Scriber’s Class) wherin you have the footnote "Costs assume that the creator makes the scroll at the minimum caster level.".

The minimum caster level is a prerequisite of the item crafting process, not simply a function of needing to actually cast the spell in the first place.

[Tvtyrant]

Doesn't the two level dip hurt your CL? I think a three level dip with 1 in Spellthief and Master Spellthief would be better. You keep your CL maxed that way, rather than losing crafting powar.

[dextercorvia]

Doesn't the two level dip hurt your CL? I think a three level dip with 1 in Spellthief and Master Spellthief would be better. You keep your CL maxed that way, rather than losing crafting powar.

Only if you allow Warlock to count as an Arcane Spellcasting class, and get the ability to cast 2nd level spells from somewhere besides Chameleon.

[Psyren]

Practiced Spellcaster would take care of the -2 as well.

[dextercorvia]

Practiced Spellcaster would take care of the -2 as well.

Unfortunately, Warlock is not a spellcasting class.

[Psyren]

Unfortunately, Warlock is not a spellcasting class.

Magical Training feat, then when you get high enough to craft 9th-level scrolls without boosts just retrain.

[dextercorvia]

Magical Training feat, then when you get high enough to craft 9th-level scrolls without boosts just retrain.

It still doesn't make it a spellcasting class, and that is the only thing that Practiced Spellcaster can boost.


Choose a spellcasting class that you possess....
Benefit: Your caster level for the chosen spellcasting class increases by 4.

[Psyren]

It still doesn't make it a spellcasting class, and that is the only thing that Practiced Spellcaster can boost.

Actually, it does in this case. PGtF pg. 41:


...Thereafter, you have an arcane spell failure chance if you wear armor and are treated as a sorcerer or wizard of your arcane spellcaster level (minimum 1st) for the purpose of determining level-based variables of the spells you cast.

Warlock gives you an arcane caster level, and Magical Training causes you to be treated as a sorcerer or wizard of that level (your choice.) Wizards and sorcerers are arcane spellcasters, therefore PS applies to you.

It doesn't give you any higher-level spells of course, but one can't have everything.

[Douglas]

Warlock gives you an arcane caster level, and Magical Training causes you to be treated as a sorcerer or wizard of that level (your choice.) Wizards and sorcerers are arcane spellcasters, therefore PS applies to you.

It doesn't give you any higher-level spells of course, but one can't have everything.
The problem isn't that you don't count as a spellcaster, it's that the Warlock class doesn't count as a spellcasting class so you can't choose Warlock as the class to benefit from Practiced Spellcaster. Magical Training doesn't change anything about Warlock, so you still can't take Practiced Spellcaster (Warlock).

[Psyren]

The problem isn't that you don't count as a spellcaster, it's that the Warlock class doesn't count as a spellcasting class so you can't choose Warlock as the class to benefit from Practiced Spellcaster. Magical Training doesn't change anything about Warlock, so you still can't take Practiced Spellcaster (Warlock).

That's fine, just contribute your "sorcerer" caster level to make the scroll.

[dextercorvia]

That's fine, just contribute your "sorcerer" caster level to make the scroll.

How does that help you make a scroll above 1st level?

[Psyren]

How does that help you make a scroll above 1st level?

You're treated as a sorcerer/wizard who simply doesn't know any spells above 0-level. Imbue Item lets you substitute UMD "in place of a required spell you don't know."

[dextercorvia]

You're treated as a sorcerer/wizard who simply doesn't know any spells above 0-level. Imbue Item lets you substitute UMD "in place of a required spell you don't know."

But, you are treated as a 1st level sorcerer/wizard unless you have an arcane spellcaster level. Can you outline fully, how you see this trick working? I'm having trouble getting the full picture from your posts. I feel like I keep saying that each piece isn't enough on its own, so you add another piece, but I'm still not connecting the dots.

[Psyren]

But, you are treated as a 1st level sorcerer/wizard unless you have an arcane spellcaster level. Can you outline fully, how you see this trick working? I'm having trouble getting the full picture from your posts. I feel like I keep saying that each piece isn't enough on its own, so you add another piece, but I'm still not connecting the dots.

Your disconnect lies in attempting to draw an artificial distinction between the terms "arcane caster level" and "arcane spellcaster level." This is despite them being synonymous in the rules. For instance, two PrCs designed for warlock entry use the term "spellcaster level" (Acolyte of the Skin and Green Star Adept) despite Warlock entrants not being able to cast spells. The sample AotS is even a Warlock.

You are, however, correct in saying that Warlock is not a spellcasting class. Magical Training is used to let you count as one (wizard or sorcerer, your choice) so long as you have an arcane caster level, which Warlock gives you. You can thus apply Practiced Spellcaster to that caster level and mitigate the drawback for entering Chameleon.

[tyckspoon]

Your disconnect lies in attempting to draw an artificial distinction between the terms "arcane caster level" and "arcane spellcaster level." This is despite them being synonymous in the rules. For instance, two PrCs designed for warlock entry use the term "spellcaster level" (Acolyte of the Skin and Green Star Adept) despite Warlock entrants not being able to cast spells. The sample AotS is even a Warlock.


There is a difference, and C. Arcane actually calls it out (the two prestige classes you reference both simply say Caster level, btw.) "Caster level" refers to the amount of energy you can provide to a magical effect. "Spellcaster level" refers to the complexity of magical effects you can create, as primarily measured by level 1-9 spells. Usually the two are synced- your base caster level is equal to your spellcaster level- but a great many effects (like... everything that modifies caster level) change one without operating on the other, and invocation users and creatures with spell-like abilities have a Caster level without having a Spellcaster level at all.

[Psyren]

There is a difference, and C. Arcane actually calls it out (the two prestige classes you reference both simply say Caster level, btw.) "Caster level" refers to the amount of energy you can provide to a magical effect. "Spellcaster level" refers to the complexity of magical effects you can create, as primarily measured by level 1-9 spells. Usually the two are synced- your base caster level is equal to your spellcaster level- but a great many effects (like... everything that modifies caster level) change one without operating on the other, and invocation users and creatures with spell-like abilities have a Caster level without having a Spellcaster level at all.

Actually, what you're referring to is "spellcasting level" (as defined on CArc pg. 18) not "spellcaster level." Spellcasting level is the 1-9 tiers of spells that a casting class can learn. "Spellcaster level" is equivalent to caster level.

For instance, Acolyte of the Skin states:


At each even-numbered level, an acolyte of the skin gains new spells per day (and spells known, if applicable) as if he had also gained a level in a spellcasting class to which he belonged before adding the prestige class level.

And later:


Summon Fiend (Sp): At 9th level, an acolyte learns to draw on another power of his fiendish skin.
...
An acolyte’s caster level for this ability is equal to his spellcaster level.

By your logic, a Warlock/AotS (such as the sample character) would gain no Warlock advancement from the PrC, and be unable to use Summon Fiend (or only use it at a CL of 4.) Neither of the outcomes are true.

[dextercorvia]

No, the Acolyte of the Skin grants advancement to the Warlock because of p18 of Complete Arcane, where it says that PrCs that advance spellcasting normally advance invocations and EB for Warlocks.

I'm not sure about the Summon Fiend ability. It is possible that Warlocks can't take full advantage of that ability.

[Tvtyrant]

Could you use circle magic to craft higher CL items? Like boosting it to 20 to make an Iron Flask, or some such.

If so could you use the circle magic to help you make divine items as well?