[3.5e] Druid help

[Aloyce]

Well getting straight to the point. This is the third campaign I'm playing ever and I decided to roll a druid.

We started playing 'Sunless Citadel' but my team decided to put me into the tree at the end and turn me to evil and that was NOT ok for our DM so he allowed me to remake my druid at lvl 3 with ~3k gold.

I made the following guy named Kevmorn as human druid:

Str 14
Dex 12
Con 14
Int 10
Wis 16
Cha 08

with maxed ranks in Concentration Knowledge nature Survival Spellcraft and Craft wondrous items with feats in CWI Improved toughness and Companion Spellbond using riding dog as companion

I was allowed to take spells and feats from every official book but no Eberron and Greyhawk (as we're playing in FR).

For weapon I have Club and I also have a healing belt and Pearl of power (1st level) and darkwood shield for magical items.

Thought I'd have fun with him as I had with the druid that turned evil but now we're playing in an underground ancient gnome city and I loose pretty much my RP as druid and several spells including entangle plus my companion as he can't climb a rope down.

The main point of this thread is that I want some ideas to adapt to the new campaign and start having fun again but I also want some ideas of what I can do with my druid to kinda optimize him (I cannot change attributes or items but I can probably change a feat or two and the skills) and I only have 500gp left. (all books counted from FR world)

And just another fast and easy question. Are Dinosaurs in Forgotten Realms or just Eberron? Because at lvl4 I wanna change riding dog to fleshraker and DM tells me I cannot as Dinosaurs do not exist in FR and I cannot find anywhere in the books if he's right or if I am.

[ClothedInVelvet]

During your downtime, get kidnapped by a Planar Shepherd who takes you to a plane where there are dinosaurs.

Natural Spell is the only important feat for a druid. You've got (arguably) the most powerful class in the game, so it'd be hard to screw up too badly.

Some good guides are scattered through the interwebs. Here's one: http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=1354.0

[Aloyce]

Ya I read that guide. And about the Planar Shepherd taking me to another plane between sessions so I get a Fleshraker companion I do not think that it's an idea the DM will like.

[ClothedInVelvet]

Okay, so once you've read the guide, you've probably got a grasp of your basic strengths (casting, wild shape, and animal companion). In the dungeon, you've lost your companion and you don't have wild shape yet. You can still fight (since you didn't dump your physical stats) and you have a number of spells.

You've got barkskin and bull's strength, to enhance combat abilities. Warp wood is great on wood doors, and flaming sphere will do as much damage as you need to do if you want to use spells instead of hitting things.

Remember, you're only level 3. Most people don't have a lot of options at this level, so you're not behind the pack.

[Aloyce]

It'd be true if it was not for our team :p
I could use my combat abilities (and I do) but compared to a half dragon fighter we have who 1shot kills almost everything and in a full attack he can cut down 3 goblins I can't do much. Also compared to our sprite illusionist who spends all day in invisible mode getting things to sleep with his darts my limited cc is never needed and my RP in there is very difficult as I am in a dungeon of an ancient city of gnomes full of traps n tricks I cannot even imagine. I don't mean I suck or that I wanna change my class and I bet in the woods I'd be doing great.

But what I need is some ideas of what I can do in there to me being nerfed to usefullnesstill we get out and some ideas of how I should go on from now on plus a critic to my setup.

PS. So... By the planar shepherd idea/joke you posted it means that I cannot get a fleshraker (or any othe dinosaur) in FR?

[Darrin]

Thought I'd have fun with him as I had with the druid that turned evil but now we're playing in an underground ancient gnome city and I loose pretty much my RP as druid and several spells including entangle plus my companion as he can't climb a rope down.


One more level and you can dismiss your current animal companion and pick up a Dire Bat that is 1) commonly found underground and 2) don't need no stinkin' ropes.



The main point of this thread is that I want some ideas to adapt to the new campaign and start having fun again but I also want some ideas of what I can do with my druid to kinda optimize him (I cannot change attributes or items but I can probably change a feat or two and the skills) and I only have 500gp left. (all books counted from FR world)


The best way to optimize druid is take Natural Spell at level 6. The rest of your feats you can fill up with Skill Focus: Underwater Basket Weaving. Spell Focus: Conjuration at 1st and Augment Summoning at 3rd are probably the most recommended feats, but I also like Extend Spell and Sculpt Spell.

That being said... while druids are frequently picked on for being overpowered, it takes a considerable amount of *work* to play them optimally. The lynchpin for most druids is spell selection: if you're not familiar with their spell list and how to get the most out of it, then a lot of druid players get frustrated and spend a lot of time feeling ineffective. Second, you need a good grasp of a wide variety of animal forms to make Wildshape worth it, and that goes with a lot of tactical decisions about how you should use those forms for offense/defense. Third, you need an encyclopedic knowledge of summonable creatures and you need to have a lot of resources handy so the entire group isn't waiting 10 minutes while you try to scramble together the stats for a dire platypus or whatever.



And just another fast and easy question. Are Dinosaurs in Forgotten Realms or just Eberron? Because at lvl4 I wanna change riding dog to fleshraker and DM tells me I cannot as Dinosaurs do not exist in FR and I cannot find anywhere in the books if he's right or if I am.

The DM may be stonewalling you until you can get to another location where it's more believable that you could track down a dinosaur. FR does indeed have dinosaurs: the jungles of Chult are crawling with so many dinosaurs they live in high-rise apartment buildings, but outside that area they aren't supposed to be particularly common. Also, Serpent Kingdoms (FR sourcebook) has dinosaurs *and* dinosaur-people (Saurials). More likely, the DM knows fleshrakers are a bit overpowered as animal companions, and would rather you take something a little more towards the "fuzzy and cuddly" end of the spectrum.

Ultimately your DM has final say over what creatures can be found in his campaign, but dinosaurs are Core, and more have been added to the subsequent Monster Manuals. If your DM has issues with finding them in an underground environment, there's a Riding Lizard commonly used as a mount in the Underdark, Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting p. 308, and there are a couple more giant lizards in the Drow of the Underdark book that could be functionally equivalent to dinosaurs (Quicksilver and Footpad Lizards might work well as animal companions), and there are "Cave Dinosaurs" in the Miniatures Handbook.

Your DM may also have issues with druids automatically knowing about every bizarre animal they may never have personally seen, but I think the core rules for what animals/creatures your druid knows about is a Knowledge: Nature check vs. 15 + HD.

Aside from that, FR is a "kitchen sink" campaign world with a lot of Rule 34's wandering around. If it doesn't exist, then it's only a matter of time before a high-level wizard finds it in some obscure demiplane or creates it for his own amusement.

[Aloyce]

lol Darrin. That reply (before you edit it with more info) was hillarious!

Well I'm not sure if I want a fleshraker as companion or if riding a dire bat will be better but I just wanted to know if I can. Anyway thanks for the reply and I would appriciate any critics and changes you guys propose to feats/skills.

[SGNenets]

It'd be true if it was not for our team :p
I could use my combat abilities (and I do) but compared to a half dragon fighter we have who 1shot kills almost everything and in a full attack he can cut down 3 goblins I can't do much. Also compared to our sprite illusionist who spends all day in invisible mode getting things to sleep with his darts my limited cc is never needed and my RP in there is very difficult as I am in a dungeon of an ancient city of gnomes full of traps n tricks I cannot even imagine. I don't mean I suck or that I wanna change my class and I bet in the woods I'd be doing great.

So from this what I can gather is that you are either 1) underleveled or 2) playing in a campaign with no level adjustments, because a half-dragon has a level adjustment of +3 and a pixie has level adjustment of +4, meaning their characters are AT LEAST level 4 and 5. And from your description, I have a feeling they have full 3 levels of character class as well. Since you are comparing your level 3 character to these, it is only natural that you are underpowered. So I would start by talking to the DM about this and getting yourself extra levels to be on equal footing.

Also, if I remember correctly pixies can't make sleep arrows as part of their abilities. They have them in their monster entry since they would also carry gears around, but note that the section on pixies as characters does not state pixie characters start with infinite (or in fact any at all) supply of sleep arrows. As a DM I would houserule a price for sleep arrows and make the character pay gold equivalent for how many sleep arrows he has.

[Aloyce]

He did buy the arrows like that and no... Both pixie and half dragon are lvl 1 as characters.

[SGNenets]

That makes more sense, then. But your level discrepencies are still somewhat troubling, as in low levels the difference between a level 3 and level 5 characters is huge (somewhat offset by the fact that the pixie would be down by any sort of hit at all, but he gets an absolutely ludicrous amount of abilities).

And if he bought those arrows, he should be running out pretty soon if he doesn't use them selectively, so that should not be that big of a problem. (if he can buy more to replenish, well, everyone else can too, right?)

Ah, sleep arrows actually have a set price on DMG! There you go. 132 gp, so thats only around 20 arrows if he spent all 3k of his treasure on them and decided to not buy any other gear. Not to mention the DMG sleep arrows are dc 11 Will versus the pixie arrows which are dc 15 Fort (plus whatever extra char bonus his character has) so it should be considerably more valuable.

[MukkTB]

There's a thing called a wildling clasp I think. Lets you keep your armor when you wildshape. Wear that or get barding for the form you wildshape into. The druid doesn't make the best front line fighter. We had a long discussion of that recently. The animal companion is a front line fighter. Its expendable. Your character is probably not expendable. It can be relatively fragile on the front line. Not to say you aren't passable in combat. Its just that you might as well let others do the heavy lifting while you try to impersonate a wizard. When your impersonation fails then its time to smash something.

[Heliomance]

Natural Spell is the only important feat for a druid. You've got (arguably) the most powerful class in the game, so it'd be hard to screw up too badly.



The best way to optimize druid is take Natural Spell at level 6. The rest of your feats you can fill up with Skill Focus: Underwater Basket Weaving.

DING DING DING DING DING!

What, less than a week since that "Druids aren't newbieproof" thread dropped off the first page, and we've got people saying Natural Spell is the only thing you need again.

Natural spell is certainly very good, but by itself it does not allow you to survive. Unless you know exactly what you're doing, DON'T expect to be able to turn into a bear and stand on the front lines eating everything. That's a good way to die very fast.

The best way to play a Druid for a newbie is as the full spellcaster it is. Stand on the back lines and cast spells at the enemies. Summoning is good, you can do it spontaneously. Once you do have natural spell, being a bird while you're casting makes it harder for you to get hit. Do note, though, that summon spells take an entire round to cast, and if you don't move at least half your speed every round when you're flying you stall out and fall unless you have Good manoevrability or better.

Seriously, though, don't try and be a front line fighter until and unless you're very sure what you're doing.

[ClothedInVelvet]

DING DING DING DING DING!

What, less than a week since that "Druids aren't newbieproof" thread dropped off the first page, and we've got people saying Natural Spell is the only thing you need again.

Natural spell is certainly very good, but by itself it does not allow you to survive. Unless you know exactly what you're doing, DON'T expect to be able to turn into a bear and stand on the front lines eating everything. That's a good way to die very fast.

The best way to play a Druid for a newbie is as the full spellcaster it is. Stand on the back lines and cast spells at the enemies. Summoning is good, you can do it spontaneously. Once you do have natural spell, being a bird while you're casting makes it harder for you to get hit. Do note, though, that summon spells take an entire round to cast, and if you don't move at least half your speed every round when you're flying you stall out and fall unless you have Good manoevrability or better.

Seriously, though, don't try and be a front line fighter until and unless you're very sure what you're doing.

Right. You can certainly kill yourself off, even as a druid. But what you're describing isn't a component of the build. It's player skill. If you don't take natural spell, you can ruin your build. If you take it, you should be able to salvage it, no matter what else you take (even Skill focus[Underwater medieval basketweaving]).

[sonofzeal]

Right. You can certainly kill yourself off, even as a druid. But what you're describing isn't a component of the build. It's player skill. If you don't take natural spell, you can ruin your build. If you take it, you should be able to salvage it, no matter what else you take (even Skill focus[Underwater medieval basketweaving]).
If "build" includes "gear" (and I'd argue it almost certainly does in practice), then I'd say that's a much higher priority than Natural Spell.

Let's put it this way - a Druid can be either Wildshaped or not Wildshaped. A non-Wildshaped Druid cares about gear choices but doesn't care about Natural Spell. And I repeatedly demonstrated in the thread that, to a Wildshaped Druid, appropriate gear is vital to survival, and that Natural Spell doesn't make up the difference.

Either way, gear choices matter more.

[Croverus]

Also, he needs help NOW, not when he hits level 6.

So stop beating him in the head with the obvious feat choice and give him adivce for what to do for the next 2 levels.

[Killer Angel]

Natural spell is certainly very good, but by itself it does not allow you to survive. Unless you know exactly what you're doing, DON'T expect to be able to turn into a bear and stand on the front lines eating everything. That's a good way to die very fast.

The best way to play a Druid for a newbie is as the full spellcaster it is. Stand on the back lines and cast spells at the enemies. Summoning is good, you can do it spontaneously. Once you do have natural spell, being a bird while you're casting makes it harder for you to get hit. Do note, though, that summon spells take an entire round to cast, and if you don't move at least half your speed every round when you're flying you stall out and fall unless you have Good manoevrability or better.


Good advices.
To go in melee as a bear, you need to buff yourself with spells, then fight alongside with your animal companion and also at least a summoned ally.
As a bird, you can cast from above, but if you need to summon some critters, the easiest way is to do it standing in a safe position (top of a tree, and so on).
Also, the druid should be rarely surprised, thanks to class skills as spot and listen, based on wis. Max those and remember the abilities of the companion.


Also, he needs help NOW, not when he hits level 6.

So stop beating him in the head with the obvious feat choice and give him adivce for what to do for the next 2 levels.

Short answer: Summon, and stay out of melee.

[sonofzeal]

As for actual advice - I'd trade "Improved Toughness" for "Ashbound" if you can get it. Doubled duration of SNA spells without a spell level increase, and a +3 attack bonus to all summons? Heck yes! This is THE feat for a low level summoner, when your CL normally means summons disappear almost as soon as you've cast them. Improved Toughness is good, especially if you want to do melee combat at some point, but honestly you'll contribute more as a summoner most of the time. I wouldn't rely on Wildshape much until Large forms become available, and that's a long way off.

[Leon]

And just another fast and easy question. Are Dinosaurs in Forgotten Realms or just Eberron? Because at lvl4 I wanna change riding dog to fleshraker and DM tells me I cannot as Dinosaurs do not exist in FR and I cannot find anywhere in the books if he's right or if I am.

He is Correct (regardless of what the actual truth is) if there are no Dinosuars in his version of FR (or what ever setting) then there are none.

[Killer Angel]

He is Correct (regardless of what the actual truth is) if there are no Dinosuars in his version of FR (or what ever setting) then there are none.

The bright side is: no dinosaur will ever eat you.

[Darrin]

As for actual advice - I'd trade "Improved Toughness" for "Ashbound" if you can get it. Doubled duration of SNA spells without a spell level increase, and a +3 attack bonus to all summons? Heck yes!

Ashbound is Eberron, while this is a Forgotten Realms game. So Greenbound Summoning may be on the table (Lost Empires of Faerun p. 8). A greenbound animal gains:

plant type, with all of the accompanying immunities
+6 improvement to existing natural armor
slam attack
SLAs: entangle, pass without trace, speak with plants at will, wall of thorns 1/day
DR/10 magic and slashing
Fast Healing 3
+4 untyped grapple bonus
resistance to cold and electricity 10
tremorsense 60
Str +6, Dex +2, Con +4, Cha +4

Whoa... never written it all out before. Thats super-bejeezus-fantastic... available at level 1, and no spell level adjustment or anything. (WTF were they smoking?)

If that's not available, I generally prefer the conjure ice beast line in Frostburn to SNA. You get access to both the summon monster and SNA lists, and I like the 1d6 cold aura special attack (10' burst as a free action, no save). You can also summon large/huge ice beast centipedes to engulf your opponents.

Also, if you're going to summoning route, get your hands on some Golden Desert Honey (300 GP, Complete Mage p. 136) ASAP. When used as part of your spell components, shortens the casting time for summons down to one standard action. And since it's actually tree sap and thus vegetable matter, you can get gobloads of it on the cheap via psionic minor creation (look at taking the Hidden Talent feat from XPH... also a great way to get lots of cheap plant-based poisons and alchemical items). You can also get 20 cubic feet of the stuff by summoning a djinn (major creation SLA, vegetable matter = permanent duration).

One big caveat for summoning, though... it's very time-consuming, what with choosing the right summons, making sure you have the stats on hand, and keeping track of them all on the map. If you're taking too long, the other players/DM are likely to get annoyed.

Anyway... to elaborate on my original point, I think spell selection is ultimately what makes or breaks a druid. So some 1st and 2nd level spells you'll want to consider:

1st:

Entangle (Core). You already know about this one, but are having trouble using it underground (no vegetation). Use Spore Field instead (see below).

Faerie fire (Core). Negates invisiblity, blur, blink, and most other forms of concealment (except for magical darkness). Another good spell to "paint" enemies on the first round, and then follow up with obscuring mist/fog cloud so you can pepper them with ranged attacks while they stumble through fog/entangle squares.

Produce flame (core). The "druid crossbow", ranged touch attacks out to 120', or shift into an animal form and add fire damage to one of your claw attacks. Can also be used to light things on fire, such as oil, webs (via the spell or monstrous spider summons), leaf drifts, incendiary slime, or wall of thorns (hey it's magical fire).

Instant of Power (Forge of War). From Eberron, but gee-willickers-nifty if you can get it. As an *immediate* action, grant an ally (including yourself) a +4 enhancement bonus on an attack, save, or damage roll (great way to add damage after someone confirms a crit). Buy a wand (750 GP) and put this in a wand chamber (100 GP, Dungeonscape).

Aspect of the Wolf (Spell Compendium). Who says you have to wait until 5th level to wildshape? Also, unlike wildshape, it actually changes your type to animal, which may lead to various shenanigans.

Cloudburst (SC). No help to you now (underground), but when you get outside.... debuff vs. ranged attacks, but mostly useful for getting 3d10 damage on call lightning.

Lesser Vigor (SC). CLW cures an average of 5.5 to 9.5 HP, this one does 11-15 HP, so much more efficient outside of combat.

Wood Wose (SC). Everything an unseen servant (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8235936&postcount=8) can do, only in a more druid-friendly color palette.

Conjure Ice Beast I (Frostburn). Gives you access to the summon monster list, and some interesting special attacks: frigid touch, ice breath, cold aura, and engulf (best used with larger monstrous centipedes). Cold aura is particularly nifty: free action every round, 1d6 cold damage in a 10' burst, *no save*. Summon a bunch of beasts at once to do Xd6 damage to a small area with no save. Check with your DM if the phrase, "In all other ways, conjure ice beast I functions like summon monster I" allows you to use Augment Summoning, Golden Desert Honey, or Ring of the Beast with your ice beasts.

Path of Frost (Dragon Magic). Grease for treehuggers, although the area it affects is pretty small (up to 5 squares) unless you Sculpt it.

Blockade (Complete Scoundrel). Swift action to drop a 5' cube of wood into a square, which can be a nifty way to block a door/tunnel or create a choke point. Another good spell to put in a wand chamber.

Spore Field (Complete Scoundrel). While it's not nearly as good as entangle (10' spread, difficult terrain, Fort save vs. sicken), it creates fungus... which counts as a plant... which means now that there's vegetation available, you can cast entangle on the following round.

Winged Watcher (Complete Scoundrel). Fly as a swift action, to do scouting, or a "Get Out of Death Free" card. With Natural Spell, might also let you do some low-level aerial bombardment.

2nd

Fire Trap (Core). Duration is permanent until discharged, so if you've got some down-time and some gold dust you're not particularly attached to (25 GP per casting), cast this on every flask of acid, oil, alchemist's fire, or other grenade-like weapon your party can get their hands on.

Flame Blade (Core). Melee touch attacks with a scimitar, so it's like getting wraithstrike for free. If you're running into too many creatures with fire resistance, switch to scimitar of sand (Sandstorm).

Soften Earth and Stone (Core). Lets your dire badgers tunnel throw solid rock, at least until you can summon thoqquas.

Spider Climb (Core). Standing on the ceiling gets you out of melee, and lets you to rain down fire and lightning.

Summon Nature's Ally II (Core). Dire badgers are one of the few creatures that leave tunnels behind them when they burrow. Use soften earth and stone to let them tunnel through solid rock. When DMs design impregnable fortresses and deathtrap dungeons, they hardly ever anticipate tunneling.

Summon Swarm (Core). Battlefield control, area-effect damage, and nausea all wrapped up into a single spell.

Blinding Spittle (SC). Ranged touch attack (with a -4 penalty), target is blinded, *no save*.

Creeping Cold (SC). Chill metal without the training wheels. Add Extend Spell, and it becomes creaping DEATH: 21d6 damage over 6 rounds. Suck on that, Mr. Fireball Wizard.

Embrace the Wild (SC). Blindsense 30', which allows you to pinpoint invisible creatures for your faerie fire/torchbug paste.

Kelpstrand (SC). Grapple to set up sneak attacks, debuff high-dex opponents, immobilize an enemy, or shutdown a spellcaster, particularly after everyone closes to melee range and entangle becomes impractical.

Splinterbolt (SC). Treehugger version of scorching ray. It's not a touch attack, but same damage, and has an 18-20 crit range.

Drifts of the Shalm (PHBII). Blanket your enemies in snow that slows movement and deals cold damage. Then add blood snow (Frostburn) for 1d2 Con drain and save vs. nausea. Or use the leaf version + produce flame for 2d6 fire damage.

Conjure Ice Beast II (Frostburn). Large monstrous centipede can engulf medium-sized enemies, or two wolves for 2x cold aura.

Frost Weapon (Frostburn). Another damage buff you can cast on your claws or your animal companion's.

Lava Missile (Serpent Kingdoms). Auto-hits like magic missile, although the targets get a Ref save for half. Nifty way to light things on fire, though.

Whip of Thorns (Champions of Ruin). Whip attack deals 1d8+1 lethal damage, and after you hit with it you can release it for an auto-entangle effect.

[Aloyce]

Thanks for the replies everyone.

And to you Darrin this was helpfull about the spells but the good of them require other spells to be cast before for the full effect like wall of thorns/produce flames etc and with 4/3/2 I think I have to be conservative as a caster. My plan is to use wild shape later on mostly for melee combat and have SNAs as helpers that's why I didn't get Augment Summoning. Thing is that now I saw Greenbound Summoning and I thought it'd be a good idea coupled with Augment Summoning I spoke with DM and he won't allow me to change my feats.

So probably I'll stick till level 5 with CC spells and some damage if I have slots at the end of the night and with summons for 3 rounds. I understand it was a mistake I made when planning my character but I'll have to live with it. So what do you guys think I could do to make my way to 5 less boring/painful (depended on situation)?

[sonofzeal]

Ashbound is Eberron, while this is a Forgotten Realms game. So Greenbound Summoning may be on the table (Lost Empires of Faerun p. 8). A greenbound animal gains:
Greenbound Summoning is rather beyond my cheese tolerance, and I'm certainly not going to recommend it unless it's explicitly a high-op game.

Ashbound, by contrast, is pretty generic and easy to export. There's nothing tying the feat to Eberron except the name and the book it happened to be published in. It's not like other settings somehow lack summoner Druids.

[Gnaeus]

DING DING DING DING DING!

What, less than a week since that "Druids aren't newbieproof" thread dropped off the first page, and we've got people saying Natural Spell is the only thing you need again.

Natural spell is certainly very good, but by itself it does not allow you to survive. Unless you know exactly what you're doing, DON'T expect to be able to turn into a bear and stand on the front lines eating everything. That's a good way to die very fast.

The best way to play a Druid for a newbie is as the full spellcaster it is. Stand on the back lines and cast spells at the enemies. Summoning is good, you can do it spontaneously. Once you do have natural spell, being a bird while you're casting makes it harder for you to get hit. Do note, though, that summon spells take an entire round to cast, and if you don't move at least half your speed every round when you're flying you stall out and fall unless you have Good manoevrability or better.

Seriously, though, don't try and be a front line fighter until and unless you're very sure what you're doing.

Actually, a level 3 druid with a 14 con is a much better tank than a half dragon fighter 1. Druid probably has close to twice the hp and better saves, + an AC with better saves. All the fighter has on you is AC and damage.

[FearlessGnome]

Greenbound Summoning is rather beyond my cheese tolerance, and I'm certainly not going to recommend it unless it's explicitly a high-op game.

Ashbound, by contrast, is pretty generic and easy to export. There's nothing tying the feat to Eberron except the name and the book it happened to be published in. It's not like other settings somehow lack summoner Druids.+1

In fact, I think the Eberron Druid sects in general work quite well in other settings (Well, maybe not gate keepers). Call them by a different name, but tell the players "Yeah, um... They're Wardens of the Woods" and they'll happily accept that.

[Aloyce]

Actually, a level 3 druid with a 14 con is a much better tank than a half dragon fighter 1. Druid probably has close to twice the hp and better saves, + an AC with better saves. All the fighter has on you is AC and damage.

Ya... But his 26 AC 19 touch compared to mine 16 AC 11 touch makes the difference. Not to think about +14 attack he has on 2/3 of his weapons compared to my +4 on club :smallsmile:

I mean ok... I don't want to be like him or I wouldn't make a druid but I want some challenge. Sending half-dragon in front with me staying behind using CLW wand on him makes me a cleric right? And if some weak enemies come by I just stay back smoking my tobacco pipe.

[Amphetryon]

DING DING DING DING DING!

What, less than a week since that "Druids aren't newbieproof" thread dropped off the first page, and we've got people saying Natural Spell is the only thing you need again.

Natural spell is certainly very good, but by itself it does not allow you to survive. Unless you know exactly what you're doing, DON'T expect to be able to turn into a bear and stand on the front lines eating everything. That's a good way to die very fast.

The best way to play a Druid for a newbie is as the full spellcaster it is. Stand on the back lines and cast spells at the enemies. Summoning is good, you can do it spontaneously. Once you do have natural spell, being a bird while you're casting makes it harder for you to get hit. Do note, though, that summon spells take an entire round to cast, and if you don't move at least half your speed every round when you're flying you stall out and fall unless you have Good manoevrability or better.

Seriously, though, don't try and be a front line fighter until and unless you're very sure what you're doing.Note that Darrin and ClothedInVelvet gave advice other than their quasi-serious 'just take Natural Spell' - conspicuously absent from your quotes.

[Killer Angel]

(Greenbound Summoning)

Whoa... never written it all out before. Thats super-bejeezus-fantastic... available at level 1, and no spell level adjustment or anything. (WTF were they smoking?)


If I'm not wrong, its creator originally intended it as a metamagic feat, with +2 lev. adj (which makes sense)

[Aloyce]

Well... I read here (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19871522/The_Handle_Animal_Guide) that I can buy animals...

How does that work? I change my companion for the animal I buy? And if I do does that animal act as a companion? Or I keep my companion and I get this one as well?

Never heard of it before and it seems a much better choice to just buy my warforged dire eagle or whatever instead of rearing it for ~4 years when our average session lasts for half a day and the DM will NOT allow me to fast pace time in his campaign.

Also whatever happens to my companion when I buy the animal I want do I need to do a handle check on it? Or it comes loyal to my hands?

[Urpriest]

Well... I read here (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19871522/The_Handle_Animal_Guide) that I can buy animals...

How does that work? I change my companion for the animal I buy? And if I do does that animal act as a companion? Or I keep my companion and I get this one as well?

Never heard of it before and it seems a much better choice to just buy my warforged dire eagle or whatever instead of rearing it for ~4 years when our average session lasts for half a day and the DM will NOT allow me to fast pace time in his campaign.

Also whatever happens to my companion when I buy the animal I want do I need to do a handle check on it? Or it comes loyal to my hands?

Buying animals works roughly like it does in reality, and has nothing to do with your animal companion.

Edit: While I'm not the person to ask about how the Handle Animal rules work in general, I can tell you that if you buy a dog or whatever it can be already trained, so you don't have to spend time doing that. But yeah, that guide will know more than I do.

[Aloyce]

Back with more questions... Just read about the lycanthrope template and was thinking about a werebear hybrid... What you think? Is that a good idea for a druid and if so around what levels considering the xp from a lvl adjustment 2? I am level 4 now... Should I wait until after i get natural spell at level 6? Or doing it now is better as I'll need less xp to advance level and eventually payoff the level adjustment?

[Urpriest]

Back with more questions... Just read about the lycanthrope template and was thinking about a werebear hybrid... What you think? Is that a good idea for a druid and if so around what levels considering the xp from a lvl adjustment 2? I am level 4 now... Should I wait until after i get natural spell at level 6? Or doing it now is better as I'll need less xp to advance level and eventually payoff the level adjustment?

Racial Hit Dice generally are worse than class levels. If you don't understand why that's relevant then you may have some reading to do to understand how playing monsters works. I recommend the guide in my sig.

[Darth_Versity]

It'd be true if it was not for our team :p
I could use my combat abilities (and I do) but compared to a half dragon fighter we have who 1shot kills almost everything and in a full attack he can cut down 3 goblins I can't do much. Also compared to our sprite illusionist who spends all day in invisible mode getting things to sleep with his darts my limited cc is never needed and my RP in there is very difficult as I am in a dungeon of an ancient city of gnomes full of traps n tricks I cannot even imagine. I don't mean I suck or that I wanna change my class and I bet in the woods I'd be doing great.

But what I need is some ideas of what I can do in there to me being nerfed to usefullnesstill we get out and some ideas of how I should go on from now on plus a critic to my setup.

PS. So... By the planar shepherd idea/joke you posted it means that I cannot get a fleshraker (or any othe dinosaur) in FR?

Hold a minute. Your lvls 3 and there's a half dragon doing multiple attacks in a round. So he's at least ECL 9. Somethings not right here.

[Urpriest]

Hold a minute. Your lvls 3 and there's a half dragon doing multiple attacks in a round. So he's at least ECL 9. Somethings not right here.

Natural Weapons.

[Darth_Versity]

Natural Weapons.

Good point, but even then OP are sure that the other player has applied the LA to his character correctly?

[Aloyce]

We just got to 4 in the last session and he got to 2... We made some adjustments tho' and he gave up his breath weapon to buyoff a level adjustment to drop it to 2 from 3 the half dragon is. So yeah to my understanding through his agreement with the DM he's playing it right.

About Urpriest's reply to my last question. Brown bear's HD Is d8 as druids so I don't see any big difference (correct me if I'm wrong). What I do not understand is about changing size as a monster. That means that if I become a werebear and level up later I'll come to a point where I'll advance to huge from large?

[Gavinfoxx]

Druid levels also advances skills, animal companion, spellcasting, wild shape. Racial hit dice, um, don't? Besides, if you want to be able to change into a bear, just get more levels of Druid...

It sounds like you are trying to use advanced mechanics that, if used correctly, will actually dramatically LOWER the power and versatility from where a druid would normally be. Why can't you just reflavor wildshape as (at least in part), racial lycanthropy?

[Darth_Versity]

We just got to 4 in the last session and he got to 2... We made some adjustments tho' and he gave up his breath weapon to buyoff a level adjustment to drop it to 2 from 3 the half dragon is. So yeah to my understanding through his agreement with the DM he's playing it right.

About Urpriest's reply to my last question. Brown bear's HD Is d8 as druids so I don't see any big difference (correct me if I'm wrong). What I do not understand is about changing size as a monster. That means that if I become a werebear and level up later I'll come to a point where I'll advance to huge from large?

Size progression for monsters only applies on racial HD advancement. Class lvls don't effect it.

[Aloyce]

I am not trying to do that Gavinfoxx... And I didn't read anywhere that I will not be able to wildshape later on as normal. That would mean I am loosing my class and I didn't see that anywhere in MM1 where the template is...

I just want to try some stuff (not sure if it'll be good or bad) mostly trying to up my AC or damage output and lycanthropy does both and it also gives me stuff I need or would like to have to like +2 wis + on will saves and scent without making it ridiculusly overpowered. Plus it seems it'd be a nice thing to spice up my RP

[Gavinfoxx]

Okay. let's zoom out a little. How do you think level adjustment and racial hit dice work? Remember, a Brown Bear (6 racial hit dice, 3 level adjustment, 1 class level) Natural Lycanthrope Druid 1 is a level 10 character, 'equivalent' to a Human Druid 10... a human Druid who could, by that point, be spending 24/7 as a Brown Bear if he wants anyway...

[Aloyce]

Well didn't think that racial HD adds up to the level adjustment... I thought I'd only had the 2 level adjustment from lycanthrope (not natural). Question closed then...

[Urpriest]

Well didn't think that racial HD adds up to the level adjustment... I thought I'd only had the 2 level adjustment from lycanthrope (not natural). Question closed then...

As I've been saying...read the handbook in my sig. Really. Actually, if you're playing a Druid at all, you really need to know how monsters work. So read the handbook. This isn't because I'm being self-promoting or a jerk. It's because it would take a really long time to explain all this stuff, and you need the full explanation.

[Gavinfoxx]

Well didn't think that racial HD adds up to the level adjustment... I thought I'd only had the 2 level adjustment from lycanthrope (not natural). Question closed then...

Okay, than a Brown Bear Afflicted Lycanthrope Human Druid 1 is the same 'level' as a Human Druid 9, then.