Rural DM vs Number Cruncher

[Lucianus]

Situation in a nutshell;
Moved here a while ago, only one gaming group in this very small town. DM's style was;

1) NPC says to party, "Kill him for me!"
2) 2 round battle against weak enemies, maybe 5-10hp damage to the whole party.
3) NPC says, "Thanks! Now have 10,000gp each!"

Oh, we where 4th lvl, by the way. All books and items up for grabs, no restrictions. I got bored fast and the other players (8 of them!) liked the game but only came because the only other thing to do in town is get drunk or shoot gophers (or both). I offered the DM, call him Tank, a chance to be a PC for awhile, give him a break you know, since he has been so dedicated to the group (Only a little sarcasm). He fell for it :smallbiggrin:

Little did I know he was a CRAZY power gamer. He is on welfare and does nothing all day but optimise, and he is so use to not having restrictions that he accepts none I try to impose. He will mearly say, "The DM's job is to make the players have fun! This is what everyone wants! No restricions! Stop being a crappy DM!"
The others (none of whom are power gamers) enjoy my more balanced and challenging game, but Tank incists that they hate it and are only being nice. He owns all the books, so we pretty much have to go to his place to game, and they are all friends from WAY back so separating from this douche is a no go path.

Thus, my multi-tiered conundrum;
-The only way to DM is either too dificult for the majority of the party or too easy for one of the party. (Standard power gamer issue, discussed lots elsewhere)
-I get berated constantly by Tank for being a "bad DM" because I impose balance and challenge to the game and don't hand out gold by the truckload.
-We all have no choice but to put up with all this because it is that or nothing, and I don't want to ruin their age old friendship.

Sad part is, outside the gaming table, Tank is a great guy! Break out the dice, though, and he becomes a total %&#*, even his childhood friends think so. This has been ongoing for about a year now and I am officially at my wits end. Can't talk sense to someone who has none. I have read a great number of forums, this and others, and tried everything to no avail. Anything you are willing to offer at this point will be welcome!

[Lucianus]

Sorry for the double post, not sure how that happened! Internet here is a bit spotty.

Should also mention that I have nothing against number crunchers, what most of you call power gamers, but when only one takes the time to do it while the rest of the group is out working for a living :smallfurious: it gets to be a problem.

[gbprime]

If you have a power gamer that refuses to tone it down, then empower the other PC's. Give them opportunities, bonuses, and equipment to allow them to compete with the superman in their midst.

[Reaver225]

That's an unwinnable one, I think. You can't force a person to like a different playstyle if they don't want to.

All you can do is suggest to him him you'll play Pun-Pun every game from then on out and break it every time if he's absolutely permissive of everything.

[Lucianus]

If you have a power gamer that refuses to tone it down, then empower the other PC's. Give them opportunities, bonuses, and equipment to allow them to compete with the superman in their midst.

Tried that :smallsmile: Tanks reply was, "Why do they get all these bonuses and not me?! A good DM has to balance all the players treasure!" Tried to explain that he already has self imposed bonuses that far exceed the ones earned by the others, but that didn't work either.

Good thing my wife is a psychologist or I would have gone nuts, killed Tank, or climbed a bell tower and killed everyone else by now!

[onemorelurker]

Would it be possible for you to run a separate game without making players choose between two DMs? If the player base has the time and inclination to play two games, run your own game. It sounds like neither of you are having fun at the other person's sessions, so it might not be hard to get him to agree to just run separate games without each other. You'll need to handle it pretty carefully so he doesn't think you're trying to steal his friends, though.

[Diefje]

What kind of restrictions is he balking at?

I'd try to enforce the rules through campaign setting. "you can't buy scrolls" is very different from "you can't buy scrolls because the wizard guilds guard all their magic closely. If you want scrolls you need to find them or scribe them". "you can't play an XYZ" is different from "XYZs are the hated enemy of the ABCs. We're in the land of ABCs, so you really shouldn't play an XYZ because you'd get arrested and killed". Make sure you're consistant though. This is very important.

Play at lower levels, if the others enjoy it. You have to pull a lot of shenanigans to pull way ahead of the rest at low levels.

Have him help with the other PCs. This will up the power of the whole party.

Buy books, host your own game.

[MesiDoomstalker]

What I see here is this:

Old DM: "I'm not having fun because you DM differently than me and I like the way I DM."

You: "I don't like the way you DM, I find it too easy."

Niether of you like each others DM styles or at the very least find them uninteresting or boring. From your account, he seems to be in the "I'm right, everybody else either agrees with me or is wrong" state of mind. Fighting with him is not the way to go obviously. Simply saying "If you don't like the way I DM you don't have to play with me." If the retort is something to the effect of "But I want to play D&D still!" have 2 seperate games being run, one DM'ed by you and the other by the Old DM. Obviously has other issues mainly that time constraints and obligations may get in the way but its a start.

If he is as beligerant as you say he is and his long time friends agree with you, some kind of intervention may be in order. Gather the group, sit him down and each of you tell him how you feel about his DM style, his play style and your DM/play style. I suggest doing this even if not everybody is on your side so it doesn't make him feel like a jerk.

Above all, try not to hurt his feelings. Just be honest and say that his comments and actions are hurting you and you'd like him to stop. Who knows, it might work.

[Eldest]

Maybe challange him to play as a very weak base class? Make it a challange so he is more likely to see it as "I'll prove him wrong" instead of the true attempt at a stealth nerf. Or step away from combat for a while and make it more RP-based. Politics and mystery. Less ways to powergame your way through those. And if he tries to Diplomance, say you are using custom rules for that for added realism (the Giants rules or maybe others).

[FearlessGnome]

Woops. Posted in the wrong thread.
Well, the only pieces of advise I have to offer given the restrictions are rather obvious. Ask him to give tips to the other players to make them stronger (You can of course help with this as well), fudge the occasional die roll (Not too often, get caught and it will be bad), and tailor encounters to challenge him. Let's see him break the game when he's low level and the monsters realistically go after the squishy caster. (Which I assume he is. Melee can be too strong as well, but are more easily countered. If the party is famous, it is NOT unrealistic or unfair for NPCs targeting them to do some research.)

Also, yes, more roleplaying focus.

[gbprime]

Tried that :smallsmile: Tanks reply was, "Why do they get all these bonuses and not me?! A good DM has to balance all the players treasure!" Tried to explain that he already has self imposed bonuses that far exceed the ones earned by the others, but that didn't work either.

Good thing my wife is a psychologist or I would have gone nuts, killed Tank, or climbed a bell tower and killed everyone else by now!

Try explaining it this way...

You have 4 PC's... Clark Kent, Lois Lane, Jimmy Olsen, and Perry White.

Once the fighting begins, Clark Kent whips out the PJ's with the big "S" on the front and starts mopping the floor with bad guys. The other three hide, take pictures, and generally offer advice, but otherwise do nothing.

One optimized PC in a party of non-optimized PC's is like that. And if you as the DM don't even the playing field a bit, then the other PC's are going to get bored. (And this guy has already said that you cannot let that happen!)

Bottom line, if you have 3 party members whose job it is to deal damage in melee and their damage output per hit is 1d8+3, 2d6+1, and 3d6+30... then it's time to give the first two guys some better equipment or PrC options to even it up! Otherwise they just waste time taking 3 rounds to drop a single monster while the 3rd guy is dropping 3 per round.

[ericgrau]

Best to stick to your guns or they game will get boring fast. For everyone probably. I'd normally say talk to so-and-so about fixing X problem and take action if he refuses, but there's no single concrete issue here. Instead just say "no", no matter how often he badgers you just use that as a reason to start ignoring him regardless. And it's his own fault for not toning it down even if he finally says something reasonable; listen after he stops talking so much.

That will force him to either player nicer, walk out or fight back, and then maybe you'll have something to talk about. I think your group isn't really siding with him so much as they don't want to get involved and side against anyone. If they do when he fights back then it's time for you to walk out, but I doubt they will. Especially if you're about to walk out. And if needed do it. Don't make empty threats nor a bitter argument; simply say you're not playing because it wouldn't be fun anymore. Nothing more or less important than that, no hard feelings.

I don't think people in general like doormat GMs because it gets crazy boring past age 5. Likewise an unequal playing field commonly creates the problem you suggested: you can't avoid killing a weaker PC without being a doormat to the stronger PC, can't challenge the stronger PC without killing the weaker PC. Do level it out.

[Lictor of Thrax]

I have to agree that this sounds like a very rough situation. As a former DM, I've felt the pain of just about every one of those issues. I think the best idea is above, use the setting to explain to him why he can't break the game. It requires even more work than what a DM has to deal with but it will be harder for him to argue.

Also, if he's willing to be so confrontational to you, don't be afraid to respond. Explain to him, quite simply, that you prefer to play a less Monty Hall-esque game because you feel that making rewards actually have to be earned makes them more appreciated. Explain to him that if the rest of the group doesn't want to play, they aren't forced to show up so, perhaps they ALSO enjoy your style. You don't even have to tell him that his is bad - just different.

In the end, it sounds like you have a rules layering, powergaming Monty Hall wanting player.. Hopefully he's not the sort to also say, "Well they my toys and I can take them back if you don't listen to me.".. But I think you will need to explain that some people like challenge more than they do imaginary pieces of loot and body counts.

[Lucianus]

Restricions I try to impose are things like;
-28 point buy, not 50.
-half hit die plus one each level for hp, not max hp per hd.
-only minor and medium items can be bought, anything else has to be made.
-creating items costs the xp and gold listed in the book, they are not free!

All that seemed reasonable to me, but Tank disagreed. I asked the others if they liked the way Tank did it and they all sided with me.

My wife suggested the intervention method as well. None of the others wanted to confront Tank face to face. He likes to go "hermit" when he gets mad and no one gets to play while he does. Apparently he got picked on a lot as a kid and gets REALLY defensive whenever someone tries to talk about things he could use improvment on. (Hence, on welfare due to personality conflices with every boss he has ever had.)

I've thought about getting my own books and gaming at my place, but 3.5 is getting rare and expensive and I'm to damn lazy to learn ANOTHER set of rules for 4.0.

I make him sound aweful, but off the table he really is a great guy!

[gbprime]

Restricions I try to impose are things like;
-28 point buy, not 50.
-half hit die plus one each level for hp, not max hp per hd.
-only minor and medium items can be bought, anything else has to be made.
-creating items costs the xp and gold listed in the book, they are not free!


Have you suggested changing game systems? He seems to want to play superheroes... :smallamused:

Honestly, it sounds like he's not going to be happy no matter how you run things unless he's effectively running things from the PC chair. It may be a lost cause.

[Zeborazor]

Maybe try pathfinder? Books still being released, relatively cheap, and while it's a VERY similar system, it lacks alot of the silly combo's that seem to be popular with power gamers. And hey a new system, despite being very, very similar, is going to be harder to power game. What with not being very familiar.

[FearlessGnome]

Restricions I try to impose are things like;
-28 point buy, not 50.
-half hit die plus one each level for hp, not max hp per hd.
-only minor and medium items can be bought, anything else has to be made.
-creating items costs the xp and gold listed in the book, they are not free!

All that seemed reasonable to me, but Tank disagreed. I asked the others if they liked the way Tank did it and they all sided with me....

28 point buy - yes. 50 is crazy.
Hp: Full hit dice is not standard. You are not modifying for balance, you are modifying (a little) to meet him part way. Standard ways are: Roll (In front of everyone), half (Round up, down, up, down, etc... Probably with full hp for first level.)

items - again, you are being nice. By the RULES, the quality of stuff you can buy depends on the size of the city. Usually, that means less than he'd like. It's still the rules.

Creating items is not free. This is a (Very stupid) house rule that he uses. He needs to pay the listed prices, have the listed time, and not try to create broken custom items that you have not said ok to.

If he complains in session when you say no, explain WHY it's unreasonable for him to take a three week break when they're in a hurry to save the noble man's kidnapped daughter.

The group sounds good. He does not. Maybe he's nice outside the game, but in game he's overshadowing EVERYONE, and demanding he get to break the rules to do so.

[Madwand99]

My solution to this would also be to switch systems. Try the new Legends game, or Mutants and Masterminds 3e, or Over the Edge. All of these are more balanced than D&D 3e, Nothing will stop him from being a powergamer (I deal with someone similar all the time) but it can help. In the mean time, stay firm with him and keep his powergaming in check.

[Lucianus]

[QUOTE=Honestly, it sounds like he's not going to be happy no matter how you run things unless he's effectively running things from the PC chair. It may be a lost cause.[/QUOTE]

*sigh* I've been dodging that conclusion for months myself.

The one thing on here so far I havn't tried is switching up game systems. I have never thought of that! I belive I will read up on Pathfinder and Superhero. I also think I will be the one buying the books :smallwink:

Thank you for all the help Ladies and Gents!

[Gavinfoxx]

Pathfinder doesn't improve balance, really. Trailblazer, which is conceptually similar, does a LITTLE bit better, and Pathfinder is working towards enabling more balance as time goes on... but it still isn't good at it. If you want balanced D&D, go for Legend. It's pay what you want, too!

[FearlessGnome]

The playground is always happy to rage at people who will never see the discussion. :smallbiggrin:

[Gavinfoxx]

If you want to stay 3.5e...

Yea, tell him that he is restricted to Tier 5 (or maybe Tier 4) classes only, and his PrC's can only be classes that do not improve his tier rating.

http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=11714.0
http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=5198.0

[Lucianus]

The playground is always happy to rage at people who will never see the discussion. :smallbiggrin:

LOL! I would not be at all surprised if Tank himself is reading this all as it gets posted :smallsmile:

I would either get "the shoulder" for a few months or maybe, just maybe, he would realize how much we want to see some change. I got to watch that word here, change. It's a dirty word in a town of ~800 people!

[Keegan__D]

Are those restrictions applied only to him because he's optimizing traditionally? Or is he trying to have a 50 point buy, free magic items, and the sort when everyone else follows the rules layed out?

[Lucianus]

If you want to stay 3.5e...

Yea, tell him that he is restricted to Tier 5 (or maybe Tier 4) classes only, and his PrC's can only be classes that do not improve his tier rating.

Wow, where do people find the time to do this sort of thing? I tried to read up on that "Tier List" thing in the past but got lost in 10 min. Then had to go to work/ go to bed/ walk the dog/ pay attention to wife/ housework/ etc. after that! Not to imply people who do that have no lives, of course. Maybe I just need better time managment :smallbiggrin:

All in all, I agree that a new system should help even things out, at least for awhile anyway.

[bloodtide]

This type of thing has happened to me from time to time. You get that one guy in a group that you can't talk too, but can't get rid off.

But it's not hopeless.....i've come up with an easy trick to fix things.

CHEAT

It's that simple. When he attacks something it has an AC of 30, when someone else attacks it's AC is 22.

When Tank hits, he only does half whatever damage he says.

When effects hit Tank, the damage is doubled and the DC's are increased.

And so on.


If you really feel you 'can't cheat' that way....then at least change the game to be 'against' him. For example, if he is a spellcaster, then have all the foes have Spell Resistance. If he is a melee fighter, give all the foes ranged attacks and so on.

And if you feel that's wrong....you can always go the challenge route. As Tank is 'superman' you need a 'super foe' to fight just him. In other words do Tanks foes and the groups foes separately. So the group is fighting 2nd level warrior orcs, but Tank is fighting 2/2 fighter/scouts with lots of optimization.

[Lucianus]

Are those restrictions applied only to him because he's optimizing traditionally? Or is he trying to have a 50 point buy, free magic items, and the sort when everyone else follows the rules layed out?

I put those rules up for everyone, but he thinks that because he doesn't find it "fun" like that, he shouldn't have to follow those rules. If everyone else wants to, fine, but he refuses. If I say the rules apply to everyone, his retort is, "You're a bad DM because you should make everyone have fun their own way!" Yes, make, not let. Apparently when he DM's, he "makes" his players have fun. Is there an emoticon for rolling your eyes?

[Siosilvar]

This type of thing has happened to me from time to time. You get that one guy in a group that you can't talk too, but can't get rid off.
-snip-

No. This only encourages a player vs. DM attitude. A competitive attitude is necessary for the game, but as soon as it turns actively adversarial, you are doing something wrong, and everyone walks away with hard feelings.

Do not deal with out-of-game problems in the game. It doesn't work.

[Keegan__D]

I put those rules up for everyone, but he thinks that because he doesn't find it "fun" like that, he shouldn't have to follow those rules. If everyone else wants to, fine, but he refuses. If I say the rules apply to everyone, his retort is, "You're a bad DM because you should make everyone have fun their own way!" Yes, make, not let. Apparently when he DM's, he "makes" his players have fun.

Have you told his mommy that he's cheating?


Is there an emoticon for rolling your eyes?
I like to use ¬.¬

[bloodtide]

No. This only encourages a player vs. DM attitude. A competitive attitude is necessary for the game, but as soon as it turns actively adversarial, you are doing something wrong, and everyone walks away with hard feelings.

Do not deal with out-of-game problems in the game. It doesn't work.

Well, it does work.

Lets say you have the Tank problem where one player kills all the monsters and over shadows the other players. Well, you simply add more monsters for him to kill. So it's 15 orcs, not just 8.

Now the trick is: don't stand up on the table and point a finger at Tank and say ''haha take that!''. You should in fact say nothing. And give no hint your doing anything different.

Five more monsters won't change the encounter much...but they will keep Tank busy.

[Eldest]

Well, it does work.

Lets say you have the Tank problem where one player kills all the monsters and over shadows the other players. Well, you simply add more monsters for him to kill. So it's 15 orcs, not just 8.

Now the trick is: don't stand up on the table and point a finger at Tank and say ''haha take that!''. You should in fact say nothing. And give no hint your doing anything different.

Five more monsters won't change the encounter much...but they will keep Tank busy.

Now what happens if the other players want to contribute as much as this guy is? To be able to pull their wieght? You have a lot of dead PCs on your hands. Or you have Tank feeling like he is being singled out by all these orcs, because he would be.

[FearlessGnome]

By the way, what kind of characters does he make?

[Lucianus]

Well, it does work.

Five more monsters won't change the encounter much...but they will keep Tank busy.

Till he gets Mighty Cleave :smallsmile: His mathamatical cookie cutter characters are melee smashers. He'll play the odd caster, but still in the "front line" mindset, and so gets them killed quite fast.

[Lucianus]

No. This only encourages a player vs. DM attitude. A competitive attitude is necessary for the game, but as soon as it turns actively adversarial, you are doing something wrong, and everyone walks away with hard feelings.

Do not deal with out-of-game problems in the game. It doesn't work.

I agree whole heartedly

[Gavinfoxx]

Wait, you are having problem with a character who is a melee smash non caster??

Really?

Even assuming that everything that gets into melee range dies as soon as he makes an attack, why is this a problem? Could you tell us his build? Also, is he actually CHEATING and munchkining (ie, ignoring rules, rolls, etc.), or is he just optimizing? Is he playing a charger that oneshots things?

[bloodtide]

Now what happens if the other players want to contribute as much as this guy is? To be able to pull their wieght? You have a lot of dead PCs on your hands. Or you have Tank feeling like he is being singled out by all these orcs, because he would be.

You have to tailor it to the situation. This is why D&D has a DM and your not just having by the book encounters.

So say Tank immediately charges forward and attacks anything. It's simple enough to have some monsters meet his charge. Then the rest of the group does what they do normally.

When done right, Tank would not even know he was singled out. He fought and killed 12 orcs, and each other PC only killed 2.....Tank would think that was as he is so great....we would not think the orcs were targeting him. It's not so unreasonable for monster to target the 'big guy'.

[Lucianus]

Wait, you are having problem with a character who is a melee smash non caster??

Really?

Even assuming that everything that gets into melee range dies as soon as he makes an attack, why is this a problem? Could you tell us his build? Also, is he actually CHEATING and munchkining (ie, ignoring rules, rolls, etc.), or is he just optimizing? Is he playing a charger that oneshots things?


He likes to fly. Also found some smackbook items that give him spell/power resistance. Also LOVES the "throwing" weapon enchantment and a feat, can't remember the name, that lets you use Str instead of Dex for thrown ranges weapons.
-Edit due to other edit-
He does follow the rules "per se", but he uses stuff from books I've never even heard of. Green Ronin publishing or something, havnt had the time to go indepth about them. Again, I have nothing against Number Crunchers but tone it down to the level of the other players man!

[Gavinfoxx]

I edited my post, you should reread it and post a new reply or change your reply... also could you tell us how you run encounters, and example encounters he is trivializing?

[bloodtide]

I agree whole heartedly

Well, if you can't talk to him at all...what can you do?

Changing the game works!

The only other thing you can do is optimize all the other characters just like he is.....

It's not 'adversarial' you are NOT trying to kill Tanks character and make him go home crying. Your trying to make the game fun for everyone. With more tough monsters Tank can get his fill of being Superman for a day, and the rest of the group has their 'normal' game. And at the end of the game....everyone is happy.

[Gavinfoxx]

Let me guess, you have enemies that the only thing they do is run up to characters and make full attacks, yes? Enemies are piles of hit points / attack bonuses / damage to be stood in front of and full attacked?

[jiriku]

I put those rules up for everyone, but he thinks that because he doesn't find it "fun" like that, he shouldn't have to follow those rules. If everyone else wants to, fine, but he refuses. If I say the rules apply to everyone, his retort is, "You're a bad DM because you should make everyone have fun their own way!" Yes, make, not let. Apparently when he DM's, he "makes" his players have fun. Is there an emoticon for rolling your eyes?

Here's your trouble. I've seen a lot of unhappy DMs post similar stories here over the years, and it boils down to this: he's refusing to acknowledge your authority as DM to referee the rules. He expects to have both sides of the DM screen for himself. That's the nut that has to crack.

A few of approaches you might try:
1. Mild flattery: "Tank, you spend all this time with the rulebooks, and it's obvious you've really mastered it. Look at all the stuff you can do! But I'm not as experienced, and I need to work within the rules now while I continue to better my DMing skills. A good cook masters the recipes first, and then starts inventing his own dishes after he masters the basics."
2. The co-conspirator approach: "Hey, I've got this idea for a great campaign where we play commoners who become heroes/average joes surviving a zombie apocalypse/ourselves with D&D stats. I dunno if the rest of the group will go for it, though, because it's a little different from what we've played in the past. How do you think I could sell the idea to them?"
3. The comically obvious in-game stealth nerf: Tell legends in game of powerful inevitables that strike down those who challenge the gods, inflicting terrible curses upon them. Then of course, these inevitables show up and curse Tank's character with The Curse of Merely Ordinary Heroism, a special condition that reduces him to EXACTLY the stats of an ordinary adventurer of his level. For bonus points, whenever the character does something humble, generous, or sincere, he resumes his ultra-powerful form, but as soon as he's rude, a jerk to any NPC, or uses his power capriciously, the curse returns in full force.

[Siosilvar]

Well, if you can't talk to him at all...what can you do?

Changing the game works!

The only other thing you can do is optimize all the other characters just like he is.....

It's not 'adversarial' you are NOT trying to kill Tanks character and make him go home crying. Your trying to make the game fun for everyone. With more tough monsters Tank can get his fill of being Superman for a day, and the rest of the group has their 'normal' game. And at the end of the game....everyone is happy.

Doubling damage, halving damage, changing AC by more than two points... all of these are incredibly obvious to anyone who's paying attention. Especially if you announce the numbers at all.

Likewise, tailor-making things to face him is obvious and will come across as punishment, regardless of the motivation you might have for it. If I build a charger and suddenly difficult terrain and caltrops crop up everywhere, I'm going to suspect something's up. If I build a blaster and suddenly every enemy has SR, there's definitely something going on.

As soon as you
...then at least change the game to be 'against' him. you make the game adversarial.

If you can't talk to a player at all, you stop playing with them. I'd much rather play exclusively PbP than deal with a bad situation in person.

To the OP: Have you tried getting another player to DM and seeing if the guy still acts up?

EDIT:

3. The comically obvious in-game stealth nerf: ...This one only works if you've got good and reasonable players who will actually recognize they're doing something poorly. Otherwise, it's a bad in-game solution to an out-of-game problem.

[Lucianus]

Let me guess, you have enemies that the only thing they do is run up to characters and make full attacks, yes? Enemies are piles of hit points / attack bonuses / damage to be stood in front of and full attacked?

I may be new to the forum, but a little respect please! :smalltongue:

He'll run past the frontliners to smash casters, throw his sword/hammer/ax whatever at ranged targets, fly to anything else, etc.

I listed a short version of his tactics earlier, not a full list, but the ways he circumnavigates the standard anti-smasher tactics.

[Gavinfoxx]

Okay, so... do any casters ever use no SR battlefield control spells on him? or no save just suck spells on him? Also how is he getting access to flight and no one else is? Do you have any melee guys tripping or stand stilling him (trip in flight causes a stall)?

[Lucianus]

Doubling damage, halving damage, changing AC by more than two points... all of these are incredibly obvious to anyone who's paying attention. Especially if you announce the numbers at all.

Likewise, tailor-making things to face him is obvious and will come across as punishment, regardless of the motivation you might have for it. If I build a charger and suddenly difficult terrain and caltrops crop up everywhere, I'm going to suspect something's up. If I build a blaster and suddenly every enemy has SR, there's definitely something going on.

As soon as youyou make the game adversarial.

If you can't talk to a player at all, you stop playing with them. I'd much rather play exclusively PbP than deal with a bad situation in person.

To the OP: Have you tried getting another player to DM and seeing if the guy still acts up?

EDIT:
This one only works if you've got good and reasonable players who will actually recognize they're doing something poorly. Otherwise, it's a bad in-game solution to an out-of-game problem.

I agree, I don't like cheating. Even if the DM can't "technically" cheat. Besides, he himself is not "technically" cheating so it seems wrong to fudge dice rolls and stats just to harass his character.

Also, this man is a mathamatical genius. He announces how much damage each enemy has take if the ranged PC is having trouble deciding who to shoot at. He remembers the stats of almost every creature in the book and can estimate how many hit points each bad guy has based on what their abilities are! It is quite impressive actually!

[FearlessGnome]

Supernatural attacks will ignore his fancy spell resistance. Also check where it's from, what it costs/requires to make, and the SR it provides. SR from items usually sucks, and if he's pretending to have drow SR when he's got flat SR, point this out. He's cheating (But don't say that. Obviously it was an honest mistake...)

[jiriku]

While I think the people suggesting better monster tactics and optimization are well-intentioned, such changes are small potatoes beside the real issue at hand: THE OP HAS A FLAGRANT CHEATER. He openly and defiantly ignores the rules of the game, uses content from books that weren't approved and brings characters to the table with illegal point buy configurations. If called to account, he passive-aggressively shuts down the game for everyone else. He considers himself "above the law". This is the root problem. Optimizing some orcs is just ignoring the elephant in the room.

[FearlessGnome]

Also, this man is a mathamatical genius. He announces how much damage each enemy has take if the ranged PC is having trouble deciding who to shoot at. He remembers the stats of almost every creature in the book and can estimate how many hit points each bad guy has based on what their abilities are! It is quite impressive actually!Impressive. However, it gives him an unfair advantage over everyone else that can't be justified in character. Tell everyone up front that you are changing things around a bit. This is not unfair; what's unfair is him knowing so much that no one else does.

[Rubik]

I may be new to the forum, but a little respect please! :smalltongue:

He'll run past the frontliners to smash casters, throw his sword/hammer/ax whatever at ranged targets, fly to anything else, etc.

I listed a short version of his tactics earlier, not a full list, but the ways he circumnavigates the standard anti-smasher tactics.If you want to try something in-game, I suggest swapping YOUR tactics up a bit. Battlefield control (through use of spells and alchemical items) and guerrilla tactics are recommended. Cramped spaces, wall spells, Tentacles of Forced Intrusion, Glitterdust, and so on. Negate his ability to move around, and have people fight from behind cover. Obviate his martial status, and do hit-and-runs. If he's the most obvious target in the group, he'll be taking fire for the rest of the party, especially if survivors/observers go back to their masters and tell them, "The big one keeps killing us all! The others don't seem to be as much of a threat!"

Have the party come across correspondence to that effect. If Tank is killing enemies in a ratio 3/1 (over the rest of the group combined), OF COURSE people are going to want to take him out first. Go after him with tanglefoot bags and such, since he's the biggest threat. They don't have to kill him, but they should debuff the heck out of him. If the rest of the party notices this, they'll put some distance between him and them, so they won't get hit with the cover fire.

Look through the list of status effects, and alchemical items that inflict them, as well as the spells that battlefield casters use to do so, and start using them. Also use illusions effectively, as well as ambushes and traps that he'll fall for by his standard modus operandi. Make your enemies smart and clever and adaptable.

If Tank throws a fit, tell him that any intelligent organization would notice that he's the one obliterating them, so they'll focus their efforts on putting him down. If he doesn't like enemies using intelligent tactics he's free to change his play style so they won't have to focus on him.

As far as him wanting to cheat and his demands for Monty Haul, ask the rest of the group if they think they'll have fun with the 'restrictions' you're using, and then turn to ask him in as reasonable of a manner as you can why he thinks that they seem to not be "having fun" when they just said that they're perfectly fine with the guidelines you're setting up.

[Lucianus]

Okay, so... do any casters ever use no SR battlefield control spells on him? or no save just suck spells on him? Also how is he getting access to flight and no one else is? Do you have any melee guys tripping or stand stilling him (trip in flight causes a stall)?

Sorry, forgot that part. He uses lots of items, flying rings, boots, cloaks, etc. Also buffs his saves with items, and as mentioned earlier, refuses any point buy system less than 50.

If any of us disagree, he basically kicks us out (I have a headache, I'm going to bed, etc) and we don't game for a few weeks.

Gonna be offline till I get home, Christmas party at work so I get to troll the web today :smallbiggrin: I'll try to be back on tomorrow or this weekend.

THANK YOU TO EVERYONE FOR THE HELP!!!!:smallbiggrin::smallbiggrin::smallbiggrin:

[Rubik]

Sorry, forgot that part. He uses lots of items, flying rings, boots, cloaks, etc. Also buffs his saves with items, and as mentioned earlier, refuses any point buy system less than 50.

If any of us disagree, he basically kicks us out (I have a headache, I'm going to bed, etc) and we don't game for a few weeks.

Gonna be offline till I get home, Christmas party at work so I get to troll the web today :smallbiggrin: I'll try to be back on tomorrow or this weekend.

THANK YOU TO EVERYONE FOR THE HELP!!!!:smallbiggrin::smallbiggrin::smallbiggrin: If he's like that, get yourself a laptop, buy some .pdfs, and then invite the rest of the group to your house. If he throws a fit and throws you out, it's not YOU that won't be able to play for a few weeks. It'll be him.

If all else fails, play Magic the Gathering or video games for awhile over at your place. You'll be having fun, but he won't. It's just a game, after all, and you're together to have fun.

However, his tantrums are unacceptable as he's an adult, and he's ruining everyone else's enjoyment, and that's no good at all.

[Gavinfoxx]

Oh. He's the one providing the gaming location? And is bullying you all to let him do his power trip? Is there no alternate way of gaming without him?

[Anarchy_Kanya]

Play somewhere else. SRD costs nothing and is a good start.

[Rubik]

Play somewhere else. SRD costs nothing and is a good start.www.d20srd.org

[killem2]

I am much more blunt. I would call him out on it, in front of everyone. I would ask, listen, there are some concerns about the way I have been DMing. Some of you want the game to progress very fast into hard core items and power game it into the horizon, some of you expressed, you like the toned down version with a bit more balance. I need to know, now, going forward, how this needs to be so I can better build stories for us.

Please write down with out talking about it, one of the following on a piece of paper and give it to me:


Slow and Balanced

or

Powerful and Fast



or.. I'd ramp up the encounters to make the new items seem worthless :)

[jiriku]

If he's like that, get yourself a laptop, buy some .pdfs, and then invite the rest of the group to your house. If he throws a fit and throws you out, it's not YOU that won't be able to play for a few weeks. It'll be him.


Play somewhere else. SRD costs nothing and is a good start.

I think this really is some strong advice. You need to remove his veto power over the game. There are plenty of ways to dress that up. You might say "hey, let's meet at my place next week, I've got this great dish I want to make for you guys/this awesome movie I want to watch with you/a room I tricked out as a gaming room". Or you could just wait for the next tantrum and then invite everyone to meet at your place on the following week.

[Lictor of Thrax]

I'll just reiterate that I think this issue has to be dealt with person to person. If you switch the game types, he'll still persist in his boarish behavior, he just won't be AS powerful.. At least not right away.

If you simply use tactics, be they directly cheating or by conniving up ways to specifically thwart him, then all you're doing is mitigating a major problem and adding a lot more stress to yourself.

I really do think the best solution is to simply tell him that he he is disrupting your game and that if he wants to play his way, he can run his own game or find someone else to DM a game for him. In your game, you run things differently and for everyone to have fun, everyone needs to play by the same rules.

He sounds like he might get fussy about it but I really do think that that's the only solution (besides not running a game at all or buying your own books and simply telling him he can play by your rules or leave) to the situation as it stands.

[bloodtide]

I agree, I don't like cheating. Even if the DM can't "technically" cheat. Besides, he himself is not "technically" cheating so it seems wrong to fudge dice rolls and stats just to harass his character.

Also, this man is a mathamatical genius. He announces how much damage each enemy has take if the ranged PC is having trouble deciding who to shoot at. He remembers the stats of almost every creature in the book and can estimate how many hit points each bad guy has based on what their abilities are! It is quite impressive actually!

First, you must take a deep breath and admit that Tank is cheating. The 50 point buy is bad enough, but he can also automatically have any thing he wants for a character, and to top it all off he blackmails you. That is all cheating.

I understand you can't get rid of Tank, and that you need his place to play. So you have to go along with his blackmail. And if the other players don't mind his 'super character', maybe you can just ignore it too.

Ok, so you don't want to 'cheat', ok, fine, if you want to do it the hard way. Accept that an optimized character is far more powerful then a normal character. Then simply plan your game for that.

For the stuff you mentioned:

1.Flying. If your game is past 5th level or so....everyone, even the bad guys should be able to fly. Flying is cheap and easy. Plus you will note that the Monster Manual is full of flying monsters.

2.Ranged attacks. There is no reason your foes should not have ranged attacks. So even if he is flying, they can still shoot at him.

3.Memorized Monsters. First, use stuff that is new that he won't know about. If nothing else, simply head over to the Homebrew Forum right here on GitP. Also use advanced monsters; go look this up in the Monster Manual. Just as you encounter a troll, does not say it's a by the book troll. Plus add templates and class levels. Change the monsters feats. In just a couple minutes you can have a monster that is not found in any book.

[killem2]

I still think "Tank" misunderstands the duties of the DM. Its not JUST about players having fun. It addresses specifically what happens if you flood the game with powerful items.

[Urpriest]

It kinda does sound like Tank is cheating, by the way. Throwing and Returning weapons come back at the end of the turn, so you can't make a full attack with them, unless he's scrounged up a way around them. One hit shouldn't be enough to down an enemy caster.

[Yorae]

www.d20srd.org

Not to mention http://www.d20pfsrd.com/


It kinda does sound like Tank is cheating, by the way. Throwing and Returning weapons come back at the end of the turn, so you can't make a full attack with them, unless he's scrounged up a way around them. One hit shouldn't be enough to down an enemy caster.
Maybe he's carrying N of them, where N is the number of attacks he gets per turn? Still, I can't imagine he could be THAT overpoweringly effective with a throwing build...

The only thing I can think of that could be super strong in melee like that is an ubercharger, which is crazy easy to counter, even aside from battlefield control: give your NPCs the Elusive Target feat from Complete Warrior. There are also a number of different ways to counter charges. If he's throwing things, Wind Wall should do the trick, unless he's chucking warhammers or something silly like that.

If he's using crazy overpowered magical items, there's always Mordenkainen's Disjunction.

[Venger]

He likes to fly. Also found some smackbook items that give him spell/power resistance. Also LOVES the "throwing" weapon enchantment and a feat, can't remember the name, that lets you use Str instead of Dex for thrown ranges weapons.
-Edit due to other edit-
He does follow the rules "per se", but he uses stuff from books I've never even heard of. Green Ronin publishing or something, havnt had the time to go indepth about them. Again, I have nothing against Number Crunchers but tone it down to the level of the other players man!

brutal throw is the name of that feat.

green ronin is 3rd party stuff, it's not official.

the 50 point buy made me punch myself in the face. that's the most retarded thing I ever heard. the fact that that's his default in the first place is reason enough not to play with him, but everyone else is using a 28 and he thinks he should be able to use 50? this guy sounds like a real douche. if everyone else is using 28, then he should use 28 too

I'm not sure how a melee fighter is crafting magical items in the first place, you need a caster level to make anything in this game. look up what item creation feats he claims to have, I'm 99% sure he's flat out cheating on this.

I agree with the mob, just ditch him. confront him in-game, when he throws his hissy fit and throws you out, just go to your house. pdfs are available online, physical books made out of paper can be found on ebay if that's what you prefer (so you can pass them around your circle and the like when it's time to look stuff up)

is there some reason you can't use your house for gaming? you mentioned having a wife, so I assume you've got your own place. do you have babies and a small apartment? or does your wife not get along with your gaming friends? gamers can keep the noise down around sleeping babies if it means they get to play, my old DM had a baby sister and it was never an issue, plus you get the hilarity of quiet swashbuckling adventures. people are remarkably understanding if it means they get to play D&D

I was in a similar situation (players and him were friends outside of the game and I didn't know either of them well. when not playing D&D, my guy was pretty ok too) with a player just like tank so I just had to tell the other players we'd be playing at a different time during the week and to please not let him know about it. they didn't and everything worked out.

you've tried everything else. good luck and have fun on your christmas break

[Yorae]

I was in a similar situation (players and him were friends outside of the game and I didn't know either of them well. when not playing D&D, my guy was pretty ok too) with a player just like tank so I just had to tell the other players we'd be playing at a different time during the week and to please not let him know about it. they didn't and everything worked out.

Likewise, been there - one of our campaigns went through something similar - campaign was "canceled", rescheduled for a different day, and had a few characters written out of the plot, and was able to carry on pretty smoothly afterwards.

[killem2]

I can get behind the secret society thing if its not a real close friend but if it is a friend, you need to confront them.

[FearlessGnome]

I guess the problem being that Tank is an older member of the "gang" than the OP, and Tank apparently being perfectly nice about things not D&D (And other games with the least room for competition, likely)

Look. You don't want to cheat? How nice... But then that makes it even more clear you just have to stand your ground on a few things. He can't craft things without the right feats and prerequisites. He can't take the feats without the necessary caster level. He CAN'T. And he can't do lots of other things, either, like crafting without paying or taking enough time (Listed in the books). Where he is in clear violation of the rules, shoot him down. He's cheating to make himself superior to the rest of the party. He's cheating to make himself feel better. He's slightly pathetic.

[pwykersotz]

I'm personally a fan of the soft-sell. Just like some others have mentioned, gently explain that you definitely want the players to have fun, but that sometimes that fun comes from doing things other than beating down everything you see. My powergamer was much more reasonable and I was able to convince him that to still optimize, but keep his power level overall about the same as the party.

Since you say he's a fantastic guy outside of game, just ask him for a favor. Say that you really want to try a certain style of gaming for one single campaign. Let him know up front that you will be changing perceptions. Maybe trolls will be immune to fire but weak against the song of a particular bird. Maybe not. But ask him if he will be a good enough friend to go along with it, just for a little while. If it turns out he doesn't have fun with it at all and you don't want to walk away, there's not much to be done. You may have to be the bigger man and just deal with less fun as opposed to no fun.

In conjunction with that, another idea might be to let him powergame it all. If the other gamers aren't completely against his style, let him keep doing that, but make some challenges that don't require martial prowess. Sure, you can throw some bad guys in there for him to beat on, but maybe that magical castle won't rise back into the air by beating it to dust. Perhaps the monsters are incidental, merely being drawn to the odd sensations of the energies of the Plane of Air warping the area and appropriate skill checks and clever thought win the day.

Yet another idea came to me while typing this. If the other players really don't like him handing you the moon, try all taking Vows of Poverty. Or at least roleplay the downsides. It might make him think differently about things if suddenly gold and items don't have value to them. Of course, don't just pull any of this. Have a nice long chat outside of game to discuss the ideas. If you all just show up and throw his "generosity" in his face, he'll take his toys and go home.

[FearlessGnome]

What you could do, to be nice to him (And maybe help him get a little of the need for cheeze out of his system) is have a one shot where everyone is told to make as powerful a build as they can (Tell the other players to hit the internet). Take a look at everyone's sheets, make sure they obey the rules (There's still the problem of him clearly being a cheater), and then optimize the baddies enough to wipe out about half the party before the baddies go down.

Then go back to normal, sane games, and explain how they are different from what you were doing for the one shot.

[Kane0]

You can try a whole bunch of things really. Just be nice but pump up your sense motive and spellcraft if you suspect him of bluffing his character sheet, intimidating/diplomacing the other players or UMDing a metagame win wand.

- Try getting him to use that intellect to help you. Ask him to help you DM or Co-DM, ask him to build the BBEG or a challenging fight. Making a challenge to his awesome character might be just what you need.

- Give him challenges that he cannot respond to normally or nominally. If you present a skill or magic based challenge and he outdoes the rogue or mage then draw emphasis on that party member being just the right guy for the job, not necessarily him being an idiot for trying to do it himself. Let him figure it out for himself that he is in a party that needs their own time to shine. If hes a great guy like you say he will give everyone a turn, no matter how awesome his character is.

- Make his character look so good that things beyond normal happen. He might get swamped by fans in town as if he is a celebrity, never being left alone (stopping his crafting progress). He might be approached by a huge number or people needing other people killed (lots of conflict of interest there). Enemies might simply flee instead of giving him the fight he wants. By giving him exactly what he sounds like he wants (recognition and esteem) he finds out that it isn't that fun when your at the top and it really isnt what he wanted at all. Think of it as reverse psychology.

[candycorn]

First: I recommend not allowing any material that you're not familiar with. To this, for anything to be allowed, you must have the material justifying it presented to you, and if necessary, explained to you, in a manner that you understand it.

Second: I recommend, any time he gets out of line, pushing on your authority as a DM, ask him to open his DMG up, flip to page 18, and read until the word "Period". Ask him to do so aloud. After he does, simply state that's your ruling, and if he would like to discuss it, he is welcome to during a game break. Explain that frequent rules discussions in the game are disruptive, and make the game less fun for everyone, so you'd prefer to keep those off the table.

I would futher suggest citing rules when he asks for nonstandard things.

I would not suggest coddling him. If he has one of his "headache spells", then, when he snaps out of it, arrive at the next session early (when he decides to let up) and tell him that you enjoy the game, and you enjoy spending time with him, but at this point, he has a choice to make. He can either work within the rules you set as DM, or he can kill the game for everyone by canceling it over and over until everyone else loses interest.

In this case, clearly point out that that it is HIS actions that are hurting the game. Don't be mean about it, but don't sugarcoat it. Let him know you like him, but you don't like what he's doing, and that it's really putting you in a position where you're not having fun.

[Yahzi]

Tank is pretty clearly invested in being the "best" D&D player in town.

So here's another vote for changing game systems. Buy your own game rules - either Legend or OSIRIC or something like that - and start your own game (in your own house). Be sure to invite Tank - but also tell him that he's the best D&D player in town, so you want to start a different game so that some of the other people can have a chance to be the best.

Don't stop playing in Tank's game right away. Stick with it, alternating between your game and his. Maybe he'll get the hint and let somebody else shine once in a while.

And if not, they may figure it out themselves.

[darksolitaire]

(Hence, on welfare due to personality conflices with every boss he has ever had.)

Okay, this is something that set me off. Tank can't tone his personality down to keep his job? I'm not trying to be an amateur psychologist, but this with everything else I've read (throwing people out because of arguing,) makes me think that this guy needs help. What's your wife's opinion of him, if I may ask?

It might not be as bad as I think it is by simply reading these posts, and I hope it isn't.:smalleek: Might be partly a cultural thing also.

[Dazed&Confused]

Okay, this is something that set me off. Tank can't tone his personality down to keep his job? I'm not trying to be an amateur psychologist, but this with everything else I've read (throwing people out because of arguing,) makes me think that this guy needs help. What's your wife's opinion of him, if I may ask?

It might not be as bad as I think it is by simply reading these posts, and I hope it isn't.:smalleek: Might be partly a cultural thing also.

Actually, reading all this, I think all this is very sad, interesting and revolting at the same time. It's revolting because it's like a spoiled grown up, interesting because he has no trouble acting like that due to the circumstances he's living in(small town, friends who really like him, welfare, etc). I think it's sad because the stereotypes instantly hit my head like hammers and I'm sure he constantly struggles with some problems in his own head - I think the OP's wife should talk to him or something(getting paid, obviously), I don't know.