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View Full Version : FUS RO DAH, or: You Can Tell I Have Been Playing Too Much Skyrim



Morph Bark
2011-11-30, 07:08 PM
Dovahkiin Dovahkiin
Naal ok zin los vahriin
wah dein vokul mahfaeraak ahst vaal
ahrk fin norok paal graan
fod nust hon zindro zaan!

Dovahkiin fah hin kogaan mu draal
ahrk fin kel lost prodah
do ved viing ko fin krah
tol fod zeymah win kein meyz fundein
Alduin feyn do jun
kruziik vokun staadnau
voth aan bahlok wah diivon fin lein!


FIRE BREATH
Yol
Prerequisite: Truespeak 6 ranks.
Effect: You make a Truespeak check as a standard action, DC 18. If you succeed, you breathe a 30 ft line of fire that deals 2d6 fire damage (Reflex half, DC equal to your Truespeak result).
Toor
Prerequisite: Truespeak 10 ranks.
Effect: You make a Truespeak check as a standard action, DC 30. If you succeed, you breathe a 30 ft line of fire that deals 6d6 fire damage (Reflex half, DC equal to your Truespeak result).
Shul
Prerequisite: Truespeak 20 ranks.
Effect: You make a Truespeak check as a standard action, DC 45. If you succeed, you breathe a 60 ft line of fire that deals 12d6 fire damage (Reflex half, DC equal to your Truespeak result).

FROST BREATH
Foh
Prerequisite: Truespeak 6 ranks.
Effect: You make a Truespeak check as a standard action, DC 18. If you succeed, you breathe a 15 ft cone of cold that deals 2d6 cold damage (Reflex half, DC equal to your Truespeak result).
Kra
Prerequisite: Truespeak 10 ranks.
Effect: You make a Truespeak check as a standard action, DC 30. If you succeed, you breathe a 15 ft cone of cold that deals 6d6 cold damage (Reflex half, DC equal to your Truespeak result).
Diin
Prerequisite: Truespeak 20 ranks.
Effect: You make a Truespeak check as a standard action, DC 45. If you succeed, you breathe a 30 ft cone of cold that deals 12d6 cold damage (Reflex half, DC equal to your Truespeak result).

UNRELENTING FORCE
Fus
Prerequisite: Truespeak 4 ranks.
Effect: You make a Truespeak check as a standard action, DC 16 + the target's CR. If you succeed, the target becomes staggered for 1 round.
Ro
Prerequisite: Truespeak 8 ranks.
Effect: You make a Truespeak check as a standard action, DC 20 + the target's CR. If you succeed, the target becomes staggered for 2 rounds.
Dah
Prerequisite: Truespeak 12 ranks.
Effect: You make a Truespeak check as a standard action, DC 24 + the target's CR. If you succeed, the target creature must make a Strength check as if it were being Bull Rushed. If you beat the creature's Strength check, you push it back 5 feet. For every 5 your Truespeak check beats the creature's Strength check, the creature is pushed back an additional 5 feet. A creature cannot be pushed away from you more than 5 + (your Truespeak result divided by 5) feet.


WHY AM I DOING THIS?
As I recently put in my sig, I am devising a new campaign setting. This will use a bunch of alternate rules and some things that are a little unconventional in standard DnD. One of my ideas was to make Truespeak useable by everyone, for instance, and have Truespeech abilities be granted based on how many ranks you had in the skill. I have no idea yet how to precisely balance this, but I will figure out a way.

Then I started playing The Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim and things got worse (better) from there.

BUT REALLY, WHY AM I DOING THIS?
Because awesome, that's why.

Lord Ruby34
2011-11-30, 07:20 PM
Well, the first thing I can note is that Ro is inferior to Fus, as they do the exact same thing, only Ro has harder prerequisites and it's harder to make the check.

Wyntonian
2011-11-30, 08:46 PM
...Can you pretty, pretty please do more? maybe make them something work taking, like having enemies be knocked prone on a failed save for Ro, and having a bit of a cooldown.


Please do more.

Please.

Kane0
2011-11-30, 09:06 PM
Please do more.

Please.

This. Draconic Truespeaking just sounds awesome. Plus these can actually be said during the game and don't sound like gibberish!

TravelLog
2011-11-30, 09:08 PM
This. Draconic Truespeaking just sounds awesome. Plus these can actually be said during the game and don't sound like gibberish!

It could be a truenamer that actually works. And has combat potential!

Wyntonian
2011-11-30, 09:17 PM
This is the start of something beautiful. Should they be feats in the FUS RO DAH style, or a whole base class?

Kane0
2011-11-30, 11:45 PM
How about a truenaming class with a Draconic Fluff? Grants these as class abilities

Domriso
2011-12-01, 03:08 AM
I likewise fully support this. I join the demand for moar. I'll even help, if asked.

Morph Bark
2011-12-01, 06:38 AM
Added two more for now, though this is going off YouTube vids and wiki description. I have been fiddling around too much with other aspects of the game before going to the Greybeards, so I don't have many shouts yet (a small number of Dragon Souls though, yum).


This is the start of something beautiful. Should they be feats in the FUS RO DAH style, or a whole base class?

I am actually not sure yet how to implement these. With my original idea, these would be available to anyone simply investing skill points in Truespeak (though perhaps now I should change it to "Dragonspeak" instead), with a feat for becoming a Dragonborn (only takeable at level 1). I am still trying to think of a good way to implement these that they wouldn't be necessarily tied to a class and everyone can take them. Of course, making a class around them to make them useable in other campaign settings is a fine idea in itself.

I will add more as I gain access to more Dragon Shouts in the game and see their effects for myself. Thus, it may go a little slowly, unless I just look them up in vids on YouTube and their description on the wiki (though in YouTube vids they usually only show the full force of all three syllables together). Help, of course, is welcome (including in finding good YouTube demonstration vids, preferable that show the power of each different stage of a Shout).

Nice to see such support! :smallsmile:

The Succubus
2011-12-01, 06:44 AM
A note on Dragonborn:

A Dragonborn has the ability to learn Words of Power with remarkable speed, after nomming on a Dragon Soul. However, even people without draconic heritage can still learn Shouts with a sufficient investment of skill and time - Ulfric Stormcloak being such an example.

So the Dragonborn feat needs to behave in such a way as to confer an advantage but still allow mundanes to be able to Shout. Perhaps being Dragonborn increases the DC of Shouts, or perhaps lockout the third rank of Shouts to people that are not Dragonborn?

GodGoblin
2011-12-01, 06:54 AM
A note on Dragonborn:

A Dragonborn has the ability to learn Words of Power with remarkable speed, after nomming on a Dragon Soul. However, even people without draconic heritage can still learn Shouts with a sufficient investment of skill and time - Ulfric Stormcloak being such an example.

So the Dragonborn feat needs to behave in such a way as to confer an advantage but still allow mundanes to be able to Shout. Perhaps being Dragonborn increases the DC of Shouts, or perhaps lockout the third rank of Shouts to people that are not Dragonborn?

Or maybe do it like the Binder, ToB and Incarnum classes? So the Dragon Born takes levels in the class and gets lods of these abilities, able to reach full potential but you can take feats instead to give you a word or 2.

So pretty much its like taking Shape Soulmeld: Strongheart vest or Martial Study when not being a totemist or Warblade.

Eldan
2011-12-01, 08:55 AM
How about a Dragonborn template? Makes you counts a dragonblooded creature, makes truespeak a class skill for you in all classes, and every skill point put in Truespeak counts as, say, three ranks for fulfilling the prerequisites of shouts.

Edge
2011-12-01, 02:36 PM
I have a Dovahkiin Prestige Class in the works at the moment. It's going to be a martial adept (because I literally cannot make anything else) that gains access to the Shouts. If you're interested, once it's finished I'll cross post it to here.

My only other comment is that the damage on the breath weapon shouts looks very low with the higher words.

DeusMortuusEst
2011-12-01, 02:47 PM
I agree with Eldan, a template would fit a dragonborn much better than a class. I look forward to see the rest of this project... :smallbiggrin:

Hazzardevil
2011-12-01, 04:36 PM
I had my own idea on how to add shotus to a game.

Mine was there was a greybeards class. They would l earn shouts from scrolls, taking 8 hours to learn and would convert a spell into a shout.
To access higher level spells you must use learn low level ones. Rather crude system, so I think truenaming would work better.

How about a dragonborn requires 3 feats at various levels to learn the shouts. These shouts would be learned sooner by dragonborn, maybe they may be able to put 2 more ranks in truenaming than a normal person.

Heres a list of shouts I know of.

Marked for Death, in skyrim it slowly lowers health and lowers armour rating for about a minute, higher ranks make the effects larger.

Slow Time, you experiance time slower, in-game you move slowly too, so I think in dnd it would likely give a bonus on attack and damage rolls because you can aim better when attacking.

Whirlwind Fury or somesuch.
Attack faster, maybe gain an extra attack at your lowest attack bonus for the round, higher ranks give you an extra attack at your second and third lowest bonuses.

Animal Alligence:
Summon natures ally, it summons animals in skyrim.

Etheral Form:
You become invincible for about 10-20 seconds, become incorporeal in dnd for about 2 rounds.

Ice Form:
An enemy would be invincible for a while, if you hit them they stop being invincible, they can't do anything while they are frozen.

Kane0
2011-12-01, 05:25 PM
Slow Time, you experiance time slower, in-game you move slowly too, so I think in dnd it would likely give a bonus on attack and damage rolls because you can aim better when attacking.

What about emulating some Diamond Mind stuff?

Also I think there was a dash one that you get off the Greybeards, maybe it would do an expedious retreat.

havocfett
2011-12-01, 06:50 PM
Animal Alleigance works better as a Dominate or Charm effect that only effects animals and vermin. Will save.

Whirlwind is an Expeditious Retreat analogue

Slow Time might work best as a Haste analogue.

Veklim
2011-12-01, 09:25 PM
The dash is called Whirlwind Stride or somesuch, the one which does faster attack is called Elemental Fury.

I wondered how long it would be before the boards came alive with cross-pollinating ES - DnD again. Seems like so long since Oblivion :smalltongue:

Wyntonian
2011-12-01, 10:49 PM
I personally vote for a first-level feat that allows access to the highest tier of shouts (the DAH in FUS RO DAH, etc.), and maybe the ability to add ones character level to save DC's. I'd also support a full-fledged Dovahkiin class, but this works for me.

Side note, the reason I'm against a template, especially one with LA, as much sense as it makes from the fluff angle, is that it makes the option of causally FUS RO DAH-ing a random halfling into the next county inaccessible to a PC who doesn't want to build his entire character around that. This way, there's a level of optimization possible (taking the first-level feat), but also some dip potential.

Also, HERE's (http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Dragon_Shouts) a complete list of the shouts in Skyrim. Don't look at it if you don't want to see exactly what I told you it was. Derp.


To add my 2 cp to other points people have made:


Animal Alleigance works better as a Dominate or Charm effect that only effects animals and vermin. Will save.


..In that case, you've spent a feat to use a situationally, kinda, useful ability. Yes, in Skyrim it works as a dominate sort of effect, but SNA is more versatile and, in my opinion, more worth a feat.

The-Mage-King
2011-12-01, 11:20 PM
How about a Dragonborn template? Makes you counts a dragonblooded creature, makes truespeak a class skill for you in all classes, and every skill point put in Truespeak counts as, say, three ranks for fulfilling the prerequisites of shouts.

I approve of this. Fully.

Hazzardevil
2011-12-02, 03:17 AM
I approve of this. Fully.

Only instead of getting LA, you get a dragons RHD with the template, like the monster classes we had on the board a year ago.
Hmm, you would get with this HD.
6 skill points, full BAB and all good saves, but you would only get the dragonborn template with this.

The-Mage-King
2011-12-02, 03:21 AM
Only instead of getting LA, you get a dragons RHD with the template, like the monster classes we had on the board a year ago.
Hmm, you would get with this HD.
6 skill points, full BAB and all good saves, but you would only get the dragonborn template with this.

....



:D


"Racial Paragon Class". Those three words work for this. About 3 levels long, good HD, saves, BAB... And make it easier to qualify for Thu'rums over each.


Maybe put a thing like the Hu-Par's "One skill is always a class skill" on the 1st level, and a "you may reduce the Truespeak requirements for any Thu'rum you wish to learn by 1 for each level of this Paragon class. Only actual levels in this class count for this, and any effective levels gained through other prestige classes are excluded.", or so, on there as well?

Hazzardevil
2011-12-02, 03:41 AM
....
:D
Isn't Plagiarism wonderful?

"Racial Paragon Class". Those three words work for this. About 3 levels long, good HD, saves, BAB... And make it easier to qualify for Thu'rums over each.
Racial paragon, monster class, same thing at the end of the day, aside from the paragon idea would stop people taking other paragon classes, probably doesn't matter much.

Maybe put a thing like the Hu-Par's "One skill is always a class skill" on the 1st level, and a "you may reduce the Truespeak requirements for any Thu'rum you wish to learn by 1 for each level of this Paragon class. Only actual levels in this class count for this, and any effective levels gained through other prestige classes are excluded.", or so, on there as well?
I like that idea, we don't want to end up having uncanny trickster and bloodlines making things go crazy.

Maybe we should have a class for someone who isn't dragonborn, but can still use shouts.

Morph Bark
2011-12-02, 06:24 AM
Maybe we should have a class for someone who isn't dragonborn, but can still use shouts.

Obviously.

For now I think I will first try to see how to implement the shouts as to be useable. After all, I want them to be useable by any player in my next campaign/campaign setting. Those not taking a feat to make Truespeak/Dragonspeak a class skill would have to spend more skill points to increase it and would thereby already be limited of course. This does make me think I should perhaps make the requirements of a few basic shouts low, like at 2 ranks or so...

From a fluff standpoint an inherited template makes the most sense for a Dovahkiin, so I will likely do either that or make it a 1st-level-only feat. A racial paragon class is befitting the earlier ages of Skyrim though, when there were more Dragonborn to go around. I recommend giving it full initiator level progression, at least as an option.

Hazzardevil
2011-12-02, 12:04 PM
Obviously.

For now I think I will first try to see how to implement the shouts as to be useable. After all, I want them to be useable by any player in my next campaign/campaign setting. Those not taking a feat to make Truespeak/Dragonspeak a class skill would have to spend more skill points to increase it and would thereby already be limited of course. This does make me think I should perhaps make the requirements of a few basic shouts low, like at 2 ranks or so...
Some of the basic things like animal allegiance and FUS.
From a fluff standpoint an inherited template makes the most sense for a Dovahkiin, so I will likely do either that or make it a 1st-level-only feat. A racial paragon class is befitting the earlier ages of Skyrim though, when there were more Dragonborn to go around. I recommend giving it full initiator level progression, at least as an option.
We could have the DM choose which one he wants between the paragon and the template depending on the campaign.

The-Mage-King
2011-12-02, 01:22 PM
...Hold on...


Dovahkiin Racial Paragon Class

A special Paragon class, Dovahkiin Paragon may be taken by any humanoid. This may be taken even if the character already has levels in another Racial Paragon class, and does not prevent a creature from taking levels in a different Paragon class after completion.


HD: d12
Class Skills:Any 7, plus Truespeak.
Skill Points at each level: 4+Int modifier

Level|BaB|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Special
1|+0|+2|+0|+0|Dragonkin, Eased Thu'um
2|+1|+3|+0|+0|Bonus Draconic Feat, Eased Thu'um
3|+2|+3|+1|+1|Eased Thu'um, Enhanced Thu'rum


Dragonkin: The Dovahkiin Paragon gains the (Dragonblood) subtype.

Eased Thu'um: Due to the nature of their spirit, the Dovahkiin Paragon is more able to master the power of the Thu'um. For each time he gains this class ability, the Dovahkiin Paragon is treated as having an additional rank in Truespeak for the purposes of meeting Thu'rum prerequisites. For example, a 2nd level Dovahkiin Paragon with 5 ranks in truespeak is treated as having 7 ranks in Truespeak when he is trying to learn a new Shout. The maximum number of effective Truespeak ranks allowed from this ability is the number of Dovahkiin Paragon's level in this class.

Bonus Draconic Feat: At second level, a Dovahkiin Paragon gains a bonus [Draconic] feat. They must meet all prerequisites for this feat. It may not be changed.

Enhanced Thu'um: The Dovahkiin Paragon may add his Charisma modifier to the save DC of any Thu'um he uses.




Not exactly like was suggested, but should be fairly balanced.


Not too shabby for 5 minutes work, eh?

Hazzardevil
2011-12-02, 04:48 PM
There is no R is Thu'um Otherwise, good job. But you forgot to mention about how the bonus on truenaming cannot be raised outside of levls in dragonborn.

Pokonic
2011-12-02, 04:53 PM
Just saying, this is a wonderful idea. I wonder how long it will be for someone to make Jills using this?

The-Mage-King
2011-12-02, 05:09 PM
There is no R is Thu'um Otherwise, good job. But you forgot to mention about how the bonus on truenaming cannot be raised outside of levls in dragonborn.

Dur. Fixed, and added.



Also, Dragonborn is already a template... I want to keep it from getting confused with the WotC one, so I'm using Dovahkiin instead.

Hazzardevil
2011-12-02, 06:24 PM
Dur. Fixed, and added.



Also, Dragonborn is already a template... I want to keep it from getting confused with the WotC one, so I'm using Dovahkiin instead.

I'm using the 2 interchangably, but that just gave me an idea. How draconic can a character be?
A dragonwrought, dragonborn, draconic, Dovahkiin, Half-dragon Kobold polymorphed into a dragon anyone?

Wyntonian
2011-12-02, 09:08 PM
I do like the paragon class. Good work, and I like how this is shaping up. Well done, folks. I'll keep reading.

Igneel
2011-12-03, 03:41 AM
I'm using the 2 interchangably, but that just gave me an idea. How draconic can a character be?
A dragonwrought, dragonborn, draconic, Dovahkiin, Half-dragon Kobold polymorphed into a dragon anyone?

You forgot classes like Dragonfire Adept, Dragon Shaman, etc.

Otherwise, I am very much enjoying the looks of this homebrew!

Veklim
2011-12-03, 03:58 AM
that's arguably more draconic than some true dragons....

Morph Bark
2011-12-03, 05:04 AM
that's arguably more draconic than some true dragons....

Don't forget that breath weapons will likely need to be kicked out if you really want to hardcore implement Dragon Shouts.

Hazzardevil
2011-12-03, 05:06 AM
This seems to have turned into a community project hasn't it?

Morph Bark
2011-12-03, 05:10 AM
This seems to have turned into a community project hasn't it?

And I fully support that.

Later today I will put up some rules/ideas on how to implement them in actual play that I had last night.

Hazzardevil
2011-12-03, 09:06 AM
And I fully support that.

Later today I will put up some rules/ideas on how to implement them in actual play that I had last night.

How about every shout has a cooldown of 1 to 6 rounds depending on how powerful it is? Most combats don't last more than 6 rounds.

Veklim
2011-12-03, 05:27 PM
How about every shout has a cooldown of 1 to 6 rounds depending on how powerful it is?Like 1 round for the first level, 3 for second and 6 for third? Perhaps consider the first level shouts being a free action, then a swift for the second level and a move action for the third? They do take longer to use as well as recharge the higher level you use after all. This would also mean that the lower level shouts are still worth using due to action economy.


Don't forget that breath weapons will likely need to be kicked out if you really want to hardcore implement Dragon Shouts. Good point Bark, it would be feasible to effectively replace breath weapons with this. Could certainly make for a more interesting set of encounters if one dragon can make itself invulnerable for short periods and another can boost it's attack speed. This would make dragon encounters far more varied and fits with the Skyrim feel.

Hazzardevil
2011-12-03, 05:35 PM
Good point Bark, it would be feasible to effectively replace breath weapons with this. Could certainly make for a more interesting set of encounters if one dragon can make itself invulnerable for short periods and another can boost it's attack speed. This would make dragon encounters far more varied and fits with the Skyrim feel.

Dragon encounters in skyrim are far less varied than you think they are.
The only shouts dragons get are fire/ice breath, fireball/ice storm and FUS DO RAH.

Tvtyrant
2011-12-03, 05:42 PM
Added two more for now, though this is going off YouTube vids and wiki description. I have been fiddling around too much with other aspects of the game before going to the Greybeards, so I don't have many shouts yet (a small number of Dragon Souls though, yum).



I am actually not sure yet how to implement these. With my original idea, these would be available to anyone simply investing skill points in Truespeak (though perhaps now I should change it to "Dragonspeak" instead), with a feat for becoming a Dragonborn (only takeable at level 1). I am still trying to think of a good way to implement these that they wouldn't be necessarily tied to a class and everyone can take them. Of course, making a class around them to make them useable in other campaign settings is a fine idea in itself.


Nice to see such support! :smallsmile:

I like the idea of these! Options that anyone can use it nice :D My one question is which stat are these based off of? If it is Int then your really granting more abilities to Int casters, who don't need it that badly.

Veklim
2011-12-03, 05:46 PM
Dragon encounters in skyrim are far less varied than you think they are.
The only shouts dragons get are fire/ice breath, fireball/ice storm and FUS DO RAH.

Oh, and there's me expecting more shouts from dragons as I progress....I'll consider myself anti-climactically forewarned! :smallbiggrin:

My point (i.e. MorphBark's point!) still stands though, using the shouts instead of breath weapons would give a lot of options for the dragons you use (ignoring the fact that ES have missed a massive trick :smallwink:)

Igneel
2011-12-04, 03:13 AM
Like 1 round for the first level, 3 for second and 6 for third? Perhaps consider the first level shouts being a free action, then a swift for the second level and a move action for the third? They do take longer to use as well as recharge the higher level you use after all. This would also mean that the lower level shouts are still worth using due to action economy.

I like the sounds of this, and it makes perfect sense imho. Don't have the game myself [due to computer not being up to snuff] but watching Youtube vids this does seem to be the case.


Good point Bark, it would be feasible to effectively replace breath weapons with this. Could certainly make for a more interesting set of encounters if one dragon can make itself invulnerable for short periods and another can boost it's attack speed. This would make dragon encounters far more varied and fits with the Skyrim feel.

Or maybe augument them in some ways like metabreath feats? Either by maybe upping effects [Fire breath used with a Fire breath weapon catching your enemy on fire, or Frost breath used with Cold breath weapon having a chance to freeze your enemy] or different effects [Fire+Frost= Steam]?


I like the idea of these! Options that anyone can use it nice :D My one question is which stat are these based off of? If it is Int then your really granting more abilities to Int casters, who don't need it that badly.

This is an interesting question... Int like the Truenamer, Cha like a Sorcerer, or if we go for the breath weapon route maybe even Con like a Dragonfire Adept?

Veklim
2011-12-04, 08:03 AM
I'd say Con makes the most sense out of all the options. It's hardly ever a dump stat so everyone will have at least something in it, and honestly Con makes more sense for a breath weapon type effect anyhow. Granted this is voice and therefore halfway between truenaming and breath weapon, but if this is being presentedas a valid 'one size fits all' option for any and all characters to take, then Con is the best way to go. Also gives the added bonus of Barbarians becoming more effective with their Thu'um when they rage, which is nice considering they can't do much else!

Morph Bark
2011-12-04, 08:12 AM
I'd say Con makes the most sense out of all the options. It's hardly ever a dump stat so everyone will have at least something in it, and honestly Con makes more sense for a breath weapon type effect anyhow. Granted this is voice and therefore halfway between truenaming and breath weapon, but if this is being presentedas a valid 'one size fits all' option for any and all characters to take, then Con is the best way to go. Also gives the added bonus of Barbarians becoming more effective with their Thu'um when they rage, which is nice considering they can't do much else!

Perhaps make Dragonspeak a seperate skill (since it would be best featured in a Truenamer-less world) and give dragons and Dragonborn the option of using Con? The Greybeards obviously use Int. (And it may also be the reason why Ulfric would not be as good as the Dragonborn or the Greybeards: he uses Int and his is not so high.)

Veklim
2011-12-04, 02:43 PM
I can go with that actually, yeah. As a seperate skill would be preferable, truenaming is a pale version of this flavour-wise and shouldn't really have a place in a world using this.


...give dragons and Dragonborn the option of using Con? The Greybeards obviously use Int. Fair point, the Greybeards are definitely using the Int route, but I do agree with Tvtyrant's worries over giving yet another nice use to Int caster's repertoire. Perhaps using Con, (perversely to the game & flavour) with the option of changing to Int with the class would actually be a better mechanical fit?

Dralnu
2011-12-04, 02:57 PM
First time I check Homebrew in weeks, I see this as the top thread, and I'm in love. MORE!

Igneel
2011-12-04, 05:08 PM
Another thing I thought of was that there are some undead [humanoid and dragon] seen in the game that use Shouts as well. If we go the Con route then wouldn't it make sense for the stat its keyed off of to be switched to Cha like the Concentration skill does?
Of course going with the Int route that wouldn't be so much of an issue I suppose...

Nemesis67
2011-12-04, 05:36 PM
You could make the individual shouts skill tricks (from Complete Scoundrel). If I remember correctly, that would let any class take them, as well as give you some variety in choosing to acquire new ones or increasing the skill itself.

I really need to get Skyrim... :smallbiggrin:

Igneel
2011-12-04, 05:42 PM
I really need to get Skyrim... :smallbiggrin:

Amen. Kinda need a better computer in my case.

Veklim
2011-12-05, 05:23 AM
You could make the individual shouts skill tricks (from Complete Scoundrel). If I remember correctly, that would let any class take them, as well as give you some variety in choosing to acquire new ones or increasing the skill itself.

Nice thought in theory, but that would limit you to 10 words (bearing in mind there's 3 words per power) total at level 20, unless you took the trickster prestiges to gain more...

Deth Muncher
2011-12-05, 05:46 AM
Nice thought in theory, but that would limit you to 10 words (bearing in mind there's 3 words per power) total at level 20, unless you took the trickster prestiges to gain more...

Or you made it so that a Dragonborn could take more, like one of those classes.

The Succubus
2011-12-05, 05:55 AM
I'm using the 2 interchangably, but that just gave me an idea. How draconic can a character be?
A dragonwrought, dragonborn, draconic, Dovahkiin, Half-dragon Kobold polymorphed into a dragon anyone?

I'd probably smack you around the head with a DM guide for this. :smalltongue:

Veklim
2011-12-05, 06:40 AM
Or you made it so that a Dragonborn could take more, like one of those classes.

True, and it would be a good way of distinguishing the difference between learning Thu'um and just inherantly understanding it. My major trouble comes with the way this would render all other skilltricks rather obsolete. If you're limited to 1 per 2HD then you're never going to take a CS or homebrew skilltrick, because the Thu'um is far superior in most respects. It cheapens these features, whilst simultaneously rewarding high Int characters FURTHER due to their larger pool of skillpoints to throw about.

I'm not saying it's a bad idea, I just see problems.

Igneel
2011-12-05, 10:14 AM
I personally am going to say nay to the skill tricks idea. Its a nice idea, but not as practical since most of the Printed versions [haven't seen many homebrewed ones] are of limited usage typically per day. I would almost prefer even making them similar to maneuvers then that, and I'm not much of a ToB user myself.

So thoughts on how to implement this thus far are [If I forget any Shout]:
*Class with 'Draconic' Speak abilities [Similar to Truenamer but different at the same time, course this limits possibility for others to gain].
*First level feat only to grant access, able to take any and all Shout feats you meet prerequisites afterwards. [Makes for a 'either you do this or don't' kind of strategy, similar to Dragonwrought Kobolds in some aspects]
*Shape Soulmeld: Strongheart vest or Martial Study-like ability without actually being in classes that use abilities.
*Some sort of 'Dragonborn' template that grants entry to usage. [Agreed mostly, but only if no LA is added. Its not like its a Half-Dragon, or even Draconic template]
*Racial Paragon Class (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=12312770&postcount=26)
*Skill Tricks

Problems Thus far:
*Key Ability [Int giving Int casters/users another new thing to go for, Con possibly for Breath weapon substitution, Cha?]

Veklim
2011-12-05, 04:51 PM
Good summary fella.


*Class with 'Draconic' Speak abilities [Similar to Truenamer but different at the same time, course this limits possibility for others to gain].I'm personally against this for the very reason you state. The idea with this seems to be for an openly accessable option, free for any and all who may wish to invest in it. This could potentially become a 'Grey Beard' PrC if it's wished though, there's certainly room for that within the original concept.


*First level feat only to grant access, able to take any and all Shout feats you meet prerequisites afterwards. [Makes for a 'either you do this or don't' kind of strategy, similar to Dragonwrought Kobolds in some aspects]This is a better idea, but still a little shaky on the grounds of feat economies, some builds having far less to throw about than others. If it were me, I'd be making the 1st level only feat a boost to Thu'um rather than a requirement. Someone mentioned earlier in the thread about the idea of reducing skill requirements for new words, this would be a good start for the feat, perhaps also allow the 3rd level of each power only to those with the feat?


*Shape Soulmeld: Strongheart vest or Martial Study-like ability without actually being in classes that use abilities........ok, you lost me now. I have no clue about either of these things.....

*Some sort of 'Dragonborn' template that grants entry to usage. [Agreed mostly, but only if no LA is added. Its not like its a Half-Dragon, or even Draconic template]I like this option a lot, but wonder how one would balance it without an LA. I also don't see this option existing at the same time as the feat. They should be doing roughly the same thing as I've said above for the feat so having both would be redundant.


*Racial Paragon ClassThis is a rather sweet 'n' simple little class, and I personally feel it's an easier fit than the template in some respects. It also serves to effectively cut out the chance for any pure caster class to gain full use of Thu'um without sacrificing some of their high-end spellpower, and I approve of this fact A LOT!


*Skill TricksNice idea, but I've already aired my veiws on this so I shalln't repeat myself!

As far as I see it, the first thing which needs to be done is the Dragonspeak skill itself, once that's fleshed out and the skeletal mechanics start emerging it should be much easier to figure out a balanced and multi-path accessable method of implementation.

EDIT:
I'm leaning more and more towards the opinion that Thu'um should be Charisma based as a starting point. Considering the flavour, fluff and in-game mechanics, Charisma is a good fit, and gives classes like the Sorcerer or Bard a really interesting place to shine which actually fits well with their own fluff in the books. The Grey Beards should be using Intelligence, so you'd offer that as a first level thing for their PrC (if indeed one emerges), and the Dragonborn template/paragon class (whichever wins out popularity wise) should have the option of switching it to Constitution. Sounds convoluted but I honestly think it fits flavour and mechanics better than trying to tie it to any one stat.

The-Mage-King
2011-12-05, 05:19 PM
Ideas:


Make Shouts like magical location rewards. Might be neat.
Make Shouts like spells for wizards, with the exception that anyone with the right feat can learn 'em.
Make Shouts like maneuvers- they need a feat to learn, and have a refresh time.
Make Shouts something else.


Greybeard PrC is a good idea.

Hazzardevil
2011-12-05, 05:55 PM
I think we should have some powers and spells that are shouts, not many and not particularly powerful, but some. In fact we should have shouts as options for any magic system or subsystem and a separate mechanic to give many options for shouts.

Veklim
2011-12-05, 06:00 PM
Make Shouts like magical location rewards. Might be neat.For some unknown reason, this hadn't actually presented itself as an option in my head. I feel both humbled and foolish :smallconfused:

Make Shouts like spells for wizards, with the exception that anyone with the right feat can learn 'em.
Although I'd agree on a basic level, I feel I have to disagree on principle. The thu'um feels more like psionic power than arcane, or at an outside edge, a fair bit like Truenaming or some sort of Bardic Music ability on steroids.

Make Shouts like maneuvers- they need a feat to learn, and have a refresh time.I'm not very well versed with maneuvers, my group don't have a hardcopy of ToB, which means it's not used (house rule from many years ago, more habit than need now I guess). From what I do understand though, they could be a reasonable fit if you're using ToB. Personally I'd prefer an alternative system to be presented for Initiator users, since many people are like me and haven't taken it up.

Make Shouts something else.Methinks that be likely, good sir.


Greybeard PrC is a good idea.:smallbiggrin:

Veklim
2011-12-05, 06:01 PM
I think we should have some powers and spells that are shouts...
They are called words of power.....

Kane0
2011-12-05, 07:08 PM
May I propose a 3.5 / 3.E prestige class framework?

Requirements:
-Truespeak/Dragonspeak/Other skill 8 ranks
-Dragon subtype or Dragontouched feat/lineage
-Must be able to speak (must have mouth and not be mute)
-Draconic as a language known

Dragonborn:
BAB: 3/4
Saves: Good Will
Skills: 4 + Int
Spellcasting progression +1 per level

Options for gaining Shouts:
1) Choose one every two levels. You gain the second part of shouts at level 5-6 and third at 10. There is a minimum level for some shouts.
2) Gain Shouts as special abilities or like Invocations (Lesser, Greater, Complete) in a progression. These improve to the next part of the shout when you gain access to higher level invocations. May or may not require a check (Truespeak, Dragonspeak, Concentration). These increase in power (and DC, but you can choose to just use the prior version) when you gain the next ability or group of Shouts

Veklim
2011-12-05, 07:21 PM
...or we could make Dragnborn a bloodline...

The-Mage-King
2011-12-05, 08:27 PM
Although I'd agree on a basic level, I feel I have to disagree on principle. The thu'um feels more like psionic power than arcane, or at an outside edge, a fair bit like Truenaming or some sort of Bardic Music ability on steroids.

...You do know I meant "able to be learned like Wizards learn spells", and not "Vanacian casting", right? Spend gold/time to learn a shout, and all that.


I'm not very well versed with maneuvers, my group don't have a hardcopy of ToB, which means it's not used (house rule from many years ago, more habit than need now I guess). From what I do understand though, they could be a reasonable fit if you're using ToB. Personally I'd prefer an alternative system to be presented for Initiator users, since many people are like me and haven't taken it up.

Thing is... Most of this forum's posters know ToB. And LOVE it.


So why cater to the few who don't, instead of the majority?


Furthermore, I said like ToB. Not "Make it a discipline", but "like", in that there are distinct abilities, and they can be recharged with time.


As for the Dragonborn as bloodline thing... It does make sense, but... Doesn't feel right.

Veklim
2011-12-05, 08:34 PM
...You do know I meant "able to be learned like Wizards learn spells", and not "Vanacian casting", right? Spend gold/time to learn a shout, and all that.ah....no I didn't. That makes perfect sense then, yes.:smallredface:


Thing is... Most of this forum's posters know ToB. And LOVE it.I DM for a group who don't/won't use it. The group is pretty big (7 regular players) so introducing new mechanics is not something I do lightly. Doesn't mean I can't reverse engineer it all anyhow, would just be nice not to have to.


As for the Dragonborn as bloodline thing... It does make sense, but... Doesn't feel right.Yeah, know what you mean. Figured I'd throw it out there anyhow, was being persistent in the back of my mind!

Morph Bark
2011-12-06, 08:50 AM
Furthermore, I said like ToB. Not "Make it a discipline", but "like", in that there are distinct abilities, and they can be recharged with time.

Yeah, let's not make it into a discipline. I made a Truenaming-based one before and it ended up weird.

Making them like magical location "loot" sounds great though! Me and a friend actually came across those yesterday while looking for magic items for our characters. Perhaps make it so that you can pick one Shout for free (up to one with a requirement of 4 ranks) even if you are not a Dragonborn, but all the rest would be stuff gained from magical locations (DMGII for those unfamiliar with the concept). Of course, you would only gain the Word of Power if you satisfied the minimum Dragonspeak skill requirement prior to coming there, but you can return at any time once it is high enough if you don't get it the first time.

Veklim
2011-12-06, 10:12 AM
OK, have been pondering this for the last couple of days now. I'm assuming the skill requirements are pretty much decided upon so now it's a case of how to work the mechanic. There should be some powers like Whirlwind, Unrelenting Force and the Frost/Fire breath which have lower requirements, starting from essentially the word go. That would be best made as a 4 skill ranks/word level requirement. If you follow the logic then you would get the second word of these powers at 8 ranks and the third would require 12. Nice and easy. Trouble comes when you get to the slightly snackier ones like Etherealness, Slow Time, Freezing Breath, etc.

My thought is this; each word/s which are deemed higher level and therefore require more skill ranks could have a modifier to the basic 4,8,12 progression. Freezing Breath (which I imagine would do a small amount of cold damage and render the target immobilised for a certain period of time) could have a +1 modifier to it, meaning you add this number to the starting requirement, and to each subsequent gap making it 5,10,15. Something like the Etherealness power would be maybe a +3, making it's progression 7,14,21.

Using this method, certain very powerful words, especially the 3rd instalment thereof, would be beyond a non-epic character's reach without some sort of help, which has already been played upon with the paragon class, whereby you reduce the requirements, making only certain focused builds capable of reaching the higher powers, but essentially keeping all words open to attainment eventually for any character.

Just a thought.

Morph Bark
2011-12-06, 01:42 PM
OK, have been pondering this for the last couple of days now. I'm assuming the skill requirements are pretty much decided upon so now it's a case of how to work the mechanic. There should be some powers like Whirlwind, Unrelenting Force and the Frost/Fire breath which have lower requirements, starting from essentially the word go. That would be best made as a 4 skill ranks/word level requirement. If you follow the logic then you would get the second word of these powers at 8 ranks and the third would require 12. Nice and easy. Trouble comes when you get to the slightly snackier ones like Etherealness, Slow Time, Freezing Breath, etc.

My thought is this; each word/s which are deemed higher level and therefore require more skill ranks could have a modifier to the basic 4,8,12 progression. Freezing Breath (which I imagine would do a small amount of cold damage and render the target immobilised for a certain period of time) could have a +1 modifier to it, meaning you add this number to the starting requirement, and to each subsequent gap making it 5,10,15. Something like the Etherealness power would be maybe a +3, making it's progression 7,14,21.

This was roughly my intention/idea, yeah, though with some progressions I was a little wobbly to fit it more to standard DnD levels of power (hence why I tried to fit the breath weapons to Dragonfire Adept levels of power).

I have acquired some more Words of Power that I will put up soon. I will prolly change up Fire/Frost Breath some as well.

pffh
2011-12-08, 05:30 PM
If you still need a video with all the shouts and the different effects of 1, 2 or 3 words I've got almost all the shouts (only missing the last word on 2-3 shouts) and should be able to cobble something together after the 16th.

Morph Bark
2011-12-09, 04:58 AM
If you still need a video with all the shouts and the different effects of 1, 2 or 3 words I've got almost all the shouts (only missing the last word on 2-3 shouts) and should be able to cobble something together after the 16th.

If you could make a vid of that, that'd be awesome, especially with all levels of power they got. I've got exams on the 14th and 15th, so that's perfect. :smallsmile:

Igneel
2011-12-09, 12:14 PM
Good summary fella.
I try to do what I can to help the cause.

I'm personally against this for the very reason you state. The idea with this seems to be for an openly accessable option, free for any and all who may wish to invest in it. This could potentially become a 'Grey Beard' PrC if it's wished though, there's certainly room for that within the original concept.
Agreed, I believe that for "our" goal that it should be more open to others to gain so a Base class would be out of the question. A PrC for 'Grey Beards' seems to be at the very least much more reasonable.

This is a better idea, but still a little shaky on the grounds of feat economies, some builds having far less to throw about than others. If it were me, I'd be making the 1st level only feat a boost to Thu'um rather than a requirement. Someone mentioned earlier in the thread about the idea of reducing skill requirements for new words, this would be a good start for the feat, perhaps also allow the 3rd level of each power only to those with the feat?
I like the idea of making the 1st level only feat a boost rather then a requirement. At the very least it would be sort of like a feat for the Binder that either gets rid of a certain condition that lowers your result, or gives you a boost. I can't remember either way...
As for the 3rd level for each power, that also seems reasonable in that some Shouts can be as strong as certain spells but are almost at-will, but in order to gain said power you would need to use up some of your feats. Maybe make it a bonus feat for the 'Grey Beard' PrC?

.......ok, you lost me now. I have no clue about either of these things.....
Truthfully I was mostly quoting what someone else wrote.
Shape Soulmeld [Magic of Incarnum] and Martial Study [Tome of Battle] I know at least are feats that makes it so that someone without levels in relevant classes like the Totomist [Incarnum] or Swordsage [Battle] and be able to do such actions like using Chakra or Maneuvers. Albeit only barely compared to a first level.

I like this option a lot, but wonder how one would balance it without an LA. I also don't see this option existing at the same time as the feat. They should be doing roughly the same thing as I've said above for the feat so having both would be redundant.
Agreed on existence with the feat, we can't really have both a template and a feat that more or less grants the same ability [or the lowering the DC of Shouts stacking]. If we chose to have one or the other that would make more sense, but how does one justify giving a potentially very good ability worthy of a class all on its own without giving some sort of LA?

This is a rather sweet 'n' simple little class, and I personally feel it's an easier fit than the template in some respects. It also serves to effectively cut out the chance for any pure caster class to gain full use of Thu'um without sacrificing some of their high-end spellpower, and I approve of this fact A LOT!
I only became aware of it after searching this thread for things that people suggested and noticed a past thread was edited some. Thought it should be brought out of the darkness.

Nice idea, but I've already aired my veiws on this so I shalln't repeat myself!
Again, I have to agree that it would be nice, but I don't think it fits.

As far as I see it, the first thing which needs to be done is the Dragonspeak skill itself, once that's fleshed out and the skeletal mechanics start emerging it should be much easier to figure out a balanced and multi-path accessable method of implementation.
Rightly pointed out. If your going to build a ability based on a skill maybe the skill should be constructed some more before going further? After that then it should be easier to work on other bits and pieces.

EDIT:
I'm leaning more and more towards the opinion that Thu'um should be Charisma based as a starting point. Considering the flavour, fluff and in-game mechanics, Charisma is a good fit, and gives classes like the Sorcerer or Bard a really interesting place to shine which actually fits well with their own fluff in the books. The Grey Beards should be using Intelligence, so you'd offer that as a first level thing for their PrC (if indeed one emerges), and the Dragonborn template/paragon class (whichever wins out popularity wise) should have the option of switching it to Constitution. Sounds convoluted but I honestly think it fits flavour and mechanics better than trying to tie it to any one stat.
As it stands this seems to make really good sense. Of the four possible stats that could be used for using Shouts [Con, Wis, Int, Cha] Cha seems to be the best 'blanket' stat. Int is more then definitely a Grey Beard stat, and for more warrior types to the Wizard could use their Con as well with the Template/Paragon. Wis sadly doesn't seem to fit in this at all.



Ideas:

Make Shouts like magical location rewards. Might be neat.
Make Shouts like spells for wizards, with the exception that anyone with the right feat can learn 'em.
Make Shouts like maneuvers- they need a feat to learn, and have a refresh time.
Make Shouts something else.

Greybeard PrC is a good idea.
-Magic Locations: Interesting proposal, course this almost sounds like your also wanting to re-create the whole world as a campaign setting. [not that i blame ya]
-Like spells: Right feat would be best, maybe even a couple of feats.
-Like Maneuvers: Again, this could work with the exception that only people that use it or willing to use it could have access. I'm personally another person that doesn't use it, but having spent some time on these forums have seen a growth in material that uses the resource/builds on it. Each to their own I suppose.
-Something else: BRILLIANT!!!


...or we could make Dragnborn a bloodline...
Do people even use Bloodlines? I think I've seen only one player in all my games I've played/run requested to use it.


If you still need a video with all the shouts and the different effects of 1, 2 or 3 words I've got almost all the shouts (only missing the last word on 2-3 shouts) and should be able to cobble something together after the 16th.
Did a quick search/watch for such existing videos. Thus far they all seem to be using some form of mod/cheat that shortens the recharge time, but they all show a good demonstration of the Shout.

All Skyrim Dragon Shouts 1/2 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=17wl_gZBb-k)*
All Skyrim Dragon Shouts 2/2 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ylVUZUm-NGw)*
[*These two use Console Command to shorten the Recharge, and don't show the last Shout 'Dragon Call' but give a short summery of what most do, the words used in each, and even a translation.]

Skyrim - All Shouts (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uuq-QgENIUI)
[Shows all Shouts including 'Dragon Call', but uses God Mode and more then likely the same Console Command for shortening recharge time.]
=====
=====

Updated List

Thoughts on how to implement this thus far [If I forget any 'Shout']:
*Class with 'Draconic' Speak abilities
*First level feat only to grant access, able to take any and all Shout feats you meet prerequisites afterwards.
*Shape Soulmeld: Strongheart vest or Martial Study-like ability without actually being in classes that use abilities.
*Some sort of 'Dragonborn' template that grants entry to usage.
*Racial Paragon Class (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=12312770&postcount=26)
*Skill Tricks
*Magic Location reward
*Like Spells/Powers
*Like Maneuvers
*'Dragonborn' Bloodline
*Something else

Hazzardevil
2011-12-09, 01:26 PM
Bloodlines are strange and broken things, that's why they aren't used often.

I won't go into much detail on bloodline cheese but here's the gist of it.
Bloodline levels stack with any classes for anything based directly off class level , so a level 5 binder with 3 levels of Bloodline would bind as a level 8 binder. Add in a single level of a binding prestige class and that adds up to a level 12 binder, that would be a level 6 binder binding as a level 12 binder, then would gain another 2 effective binder levels for more levels of binder or the prestige class, and would then gain another 4 effective binder levels for any different binding prestige classes.

Dsurion
2012-01-03, 07:39 AM
Has any more work been done on this?

Grod_The_Giant
2012-01-05, 12:07 AM
Has any more work been done on this?

Doesn't seem to be.

My preference would be to make the shouts into utterances, each with three levels. Maybe whip up a gish-type prestige class to go along with them.

Amechra
2012-01-05, 01:32 AM
I'm gonna chime in and say that all published Skill Tricks are 1/ENCOUNTER, not 1/day; in addition, you could take the idea that you can learn ANY NUMBER of shouts; there could be a note that says that Thu'um doesn't count towards maximum skill tricks.

Or have the ability to use Thu'um be a skill trick; you would have to learn words yourself, and then you could essentially Shout 1/encounter, unless you took the PrC, which could set it up for another 1~2 times per encounter...

Veklim
2012-01-05, 06:35 PM
Hrm, are we talking about hijacking the thread and continuing this brew...? Not complaining or anything, but we should probably tell Morph...

Morph Bark
2012-01-05, 07:13 PM
Hrm, are we talking about hijacking the thread and continuing this brew...? Not complaining or anything, but we should probably tell Morph...

When my exams were finally over, I couldn't find the thread again, and after that it was Christmas so I kinda just forgot about it. Now I got some exams coming up real soon again, so I dunno how much I can 'brew on this myself, though I prolly could make the shouts themselves and leave the various ways to implement it, as well as PrCs, classes and so on, up to you. There were already others 'brewing some things like that in this thread and I didn't mind at all, so feel free to continue. :smallsmile:

Veklim
2012-01-05, 08:55 PM
Sweet, I guess it can coalesce independantly then :smallbiggrin:

You heard the man!


...all published Skill Tricks are 1/ENCOUNTER, not 1/day
True, although I seem to remember a proviso along the lines of 'unless otherwise stated' which may/may not be relevant.


...in addition, you could take the idea that you can learn ANY NUMBER of shouts; there could be a note that says that Thu'um doesn't count towards maximum skill tricks.
This implies that skill tricks are not the way to go for Thu'um, not that we should change what a skill trick is or how it works, just to crowbar a concept into an existant shell.


Or have the ability to use Thu'um be a skill trick; you would have to learn words yourself, and then you could essentially Shout 1/encounter
Which puts it at loggerheads with the idea of Thu'um from Skyrim itself, since each power has a different cooldown duration, which progresses with the number of words used.

I don't think skill tricks are a good fit, they certainly serve as a good reference point for power, utility and perhaps even cost, but they do not represent the mutability or scaling required for Thu'um itself.

We do seem to have a basic structure on mutual consensus, in that any character could learn to use this to some extent without too much investment (no multiclassing, self-crippling or shenanigans should be necessary), the 3rd word of each Thu'um should be restricted to only certain focused builds, and that there should be knowledge, feat, PrC and fluff support to make this a viable 'overlay' to the system.

The more I think about this, the more I'm reminded (possibly obscurely) by 'pneuma' from Weaveworld. I'm also repeatedly seeing an almost psionic edge to the whole idea of Thu'um, the 'power of voice and intent as one'. Not suggesting we make it psionic, but by looking at how psionics are like magic, but not magic, perhaps it could help us see how Thu'um would interact with existant powers and abilities?

Amechra
2012-01-06, 07:51 PM
EXTREME BRAIN FLASH!

Dragonmarks. Eberronian Dragonmarks.

I don't know how we would use them, but EBERRONIAN DRAGONMARKS!

TravelLog
2012-01-06, 08:23 PM
Hey guys. I put together a Dovahkiin (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=12487960#post12487960) class you guys might be interested in checking out. I did Shouts a bit differently though. I'd love to get feedback from fellow Skyrim lovers.

...also Dragonmarks could be very interesting. Very interesting indeed.