Gesalt Dread Necromancer (Last Minute Build Help)

[SirFredgar]

Okayyy... sooo...... I had everything planned out on my Dread Necromancer gesalt for a campaign starting Sat. My Build was simple and thematic, Dread Necro19/Sand Shaper1//Cleric10/Walker in the Waste 10. I was going to have 1 feat slot open, but otherwise use Fell Drain, DMM, and Southern magician to lay on the hurt because I have a metric ton of turn attempts. I have a starting cha of 24 because of free templates, such as Half-Vampire and draconic. Cleric level are giving me turn attempts, and my DN levels are giving me rebuke attempts.

Then, I decided the +Cha to hp wasn't worth the 10 levels in Walker... so I'm basically back to Dread Necro//Cloistered Cleric with no idea for feats or PrC. Incantatrix came up with another player (everyone else is pretty well optimized), but my inital reaction was Dweomerkeeper, because our Wiz/Arti is going incantatrix.

We have a Beguiler /druid/ Shadowcraft Mage, A Warmage/swashbuckler/duskblade, a Wizard/Artificer, a Barbarian (so far, her racial HD means she only has one class atm, and we dunno what to gesalt her in). So far the only Feats I have planned (and those are negotable) are Lost Tradition (not sure where this is from, but our group just accepts that this changes primary casting stat, so it's Cleric to Cha), Fell Drain, DMM Felldrain, and Southern Magician with 2 flaws starting out.

My DM wants a character by today (don't worry, I am pretty knowledgeable and can slap it together pretty fast, I just need a solid, somewhat optimized build) Any help you crazy optimizers out there can offer would be great, onething I definitly did want was a usefull way of blowing turn attempts. I simply have too many not to put them to good use.

My current thoughts are Dread Necromancer 20// Cleric 10 / Dweomerkeeper 10... but this is a jumping off point. I don't want to fall behind the other optimized builds. Any thoughts?

[Fouredged Sword]

Travel devotion is always useful, as non-move action movement is very useful.

A Ruby knight windicator (cleric / crusader or warblade / ruby knight vindicator) is very powerful. Spend turn attempts to gain standard actions. The crusader levels and martial manuvers add some nice melee punch to the dread necro's toughness.

[deuxhero]

Yeah, something non-squishy (takes great advantage of the DN's unlimited healing) and something that grants more actions are the best bets for Gestalt, so RKN is good.

[Fouredged Sword]

Mixing the shapeshift reserve feat that grants extra HP and the crusaders damage pool creates a very though character.

[Randomguy]

How well does cloistered cleric synergise with dread necro? If dread necro's get d8 HD, medium BAB and a low number of skill points then taking the cloistered cleric alternate class feature is a good idea. (I wouldn't know, I don't have the book dread necro's are from).

I suggest you focus around DMM persist. There an ACF somewhere that lets clerics swap turn undead for destroy undead, which isn't turn undead but functions as turn undead for a number of things, including divine metamagic. Also, don't dread necromancers get rebuke undead as well? You can use that to persist some divine spells. This means that a one level dip in sacred exorcist gives you a third turning pool. Also, the undeath domain, which grants extra turning as a bonus feat, feats very thematically with your character. Look for other ways to get more turn attempts.

Look up some good spells to persist. Ice axe is a good one, and there's the divine power, righteous might and one other spell that form your standard DMM persist trifecta. Also, if you're high enough level, there's holy star. Persistent mass lesser vigor or it's big brother, vigorous circle, are good for the whole party. Persistent girallon's blessing lets your barbarian pack an extra punch. Persistent blindsight or see invisibility are good if you expect to be facing many invisible or hidden enemies and don't want to keep recasting all day. Persistent freedom of movement means you can save money on a ring of freedom of movement.
If you pick an arcane spell for dweomkeeper that you can convert other spells into, you would be able to persist that spell if you cast it from a divine slot, I think, but DN's are spontaneous casters so choosing one of their spells to convert other spells to wouldn't be that great.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Your original idea was solid, but if that's not the way you want to go, here's an idea:

The Scarecrow Reborn: Dread Necro7/Sandshaper1/Dread Witch4/Dread Necro12//Crusader/Cleric/RKV.

You blow turn attempts for standard actions. Use said standard actions to buff yourself with Aura of Terror, which works well with your already present Fear Aura to boost it up to Frightened. Now, if you want to do something silly with Snowcasting, Piercing Cold, and Fell Frighten, you could make an aura that would automatically make opponents Shaken (no save), and if they make their save, they're Panicked. But that might be too much of a feat investment for you.

[Suddo]

Can you be evil? A couple of levels of Paladin and Hexblade could be fun. Mystic Theurge could be interesting. Cloister Cleric could be an interesting idea, though then you are stuck with 10 BAB.

How is your DM handling LA in Gesalt? Does it only apply to one side? What race are you?

Those are my thoughts for the moment.

[SirFredgar]

While I really like the suggestion to go DMM persist, I have an artificer in the party (and I will be sinking cross class ranks in UMD), so he is going to take care of the Persistant Shennaigans. I found not being able to use touch spells for persist, because I won't have reach spell like he does, really hampered my usable buffs for it. Otherwise My domain options would have been Planning and Deathbound (I am not limited to picking a diety, so I can cherry pick domains if I can have them make sense together).

The Reason i picked Cloistered Cleric over standard is the extra domain, and adding all knowledge skills to the list of class skills. I needed to have a certain number of ranks in a knowledge skill before a certain level, and couldn't do it with cross class ranks. However, looking at it now, I don't remember what that class was, really. CC gives Poor BaB and d6 just like DN, but gives 6 skillpoints/level. HD doesn't matter much to me, I plan on necropolitianing at 3. This has allowed me to max all of the social skills I have (Bluff, Disguise, Diplomacy, Intimidate). Other then that it's not strictly nessicary... while I do like being able to do everything, and being a face man plays to my insane cha, I really only want to be an awesome necromancer.

Shneekey: I love your guide btw, it's helped me immensly. And your suggestion isn't far off from a build I was thinking myself. Cept I don't know much about ToB, so manuvers and what not appear a little intimadting on first glance, however it wouldn't take me long to get up to speed.

here is how my scarecrow is looking right now:

Dread Necro 8/Dread Witch1/DN X//Cloistered Cleric 7, Dread Witch 3 (levels 2-4)/Walker in The Waste. I get 9th level magic from both cleric and DN, the better Dry lich, Fear immunity peircing, and the ability to use my large MM pool (20 attempts at level one). However, my fears do look a little wimpy:

Lost Tradition, Fell Drain, DMM FD, Extend, Heat Endurance 1, Southern Magician 3, Fell Frighten 6, DMM Fell Frighten 9 , Rapid Meta magic 12, Quicken 15, DMM Quicken 18,

I can trade out the last three feats if I really wanted to pick up the cold feats that tack onto the aura (love the lockdown effect it has). I am just worried that the lockdown aura would be problematic for my party, especially the Hell Hound barbarian.

[SirFredgar]

Suddo: We get a free LA of +3. So I took Half Vampire and Draconic for Cha stacking. Anything LA we have higher then that is put on one side of the gesalt and racial HD on the other. I can be whatever alignment, but have centered on CN for now. It was to keep the option of dipping Battle Dancer for Cha to AC an option. I was also told I could paladin of Freedom, if I wanted to get my cha to saves.

Those splashes only really present one problem, Do I want the 9th level DN magic or 9th level Cleric.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

The Fear aura specifically says that it only affects Enemies. Since he isn't your enemy, it wouldn't affect him.

"Enemies in the area must make a save..." is the language used.

So don't worry about friendly fire.

[SirFredgar]

I also like the idea of having a heat aura (from walker) or a cold aura. It's like the whole... duality of the desert. Hot during the Day (cleric/walker) and Cold at Night (DreadNecro/Dreadwitch cold silliness). The fact it doesn't hurt allies is something I never considered before. Even Flash Frost says it deals and additional two damage to "targets in the area".

Mind... blown...

Edit: I did see one problem: Snowcasting requires Con 13... so If I ever went undead I'd loose access to the feat.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

I also like the idea of having a heat aura (from walker) or a cold aura. It's like the whole... duality of the desert. Hot during the Day (cleric/walker) and Cold at Night (DreadNecro/Dreadwitch cold silliness). The fact it doesn't hurt allies is something I never considered before. Even Flash Frost says it deals and additional two damage to "targets in the area".

Mind... blown...

Edit: I did see one problem: Snowcasting requires Con 13... so If I ever went undead I'd loose access to the feat.Mmm... true. It'd still work with Kelgore's Grave Mist, although that's better done with Fell Drain.

So, you use a Fell Frighten Kelgore's Grave mist (which already does damage, so Flash Frost is unnecessary) on your opponents to get them Shaken (possibly as a free standard action using RKV), then just wade into combat and elevate their Shaken to Panicked.

Scorching/Searing is another combo to consider.

[SirFredgar]

Mmm... true. It'd still work with Kelgore's Grave Mist, although that's better done with Fell Drain.

So, you use a Fell Frighten Kelgore's Grave mist (which already does damage, so Flash Frost is unnecessary) on your opponents to get them Shaken (possibly as a free standard action using RKV), then just wade into combat.

yeah, I planned on picking up Kelgore's grave mist.... there was this really detailed guide that outlined how awesome it was (no save, no sr). Only other spell I was going to have access to (via sand shaper) that could compete was Sandstorm.

I had one question though, say I Felldrain/Fell Frighten a Gravemist. Does it applty a negative level/fear every round it does damage, or only the first time is hits a target. That is to say, if someone is silly enough to stand there, will they become panicked/melted after a few rounds?

And is there a trick to scorching? Or are we just piling on say, twin and split ray?

[SirFredgar]

I call this My Desert Scarecrow:

Dread Necromancer 18 / SandShaper 1 / Dread Witch 1 // Dread Witch 3 / Cloistered Cleric 7 / Walker in the Waste 10



1. Dread Necromancer 1// Cloistered Cleric 1
2 .Dread Necromancer 2// Cloistered Cleric 2
3. Dread Necromancer 3// Cloistered Cleric 3
4. Dread Necromancer 4// Cloistered Cleric 4
5. Dread Necromancer 4 / Dread Witch Lvl1 // Cloistered Cleric 5
6. Dread Necromancer 4 / Dread Witch 1 / Sand Shaper 1// Cloistered Cleric 6
7. Dread Necromancer 5 / SandShaper 1 / Dread Witch 1 // Dread Witch Lvl2 / Cloistered Cleric 6
8. Dread Necromancer 6 / SandShaper 1 / Dread Witch 1 // Dread Witch Lvl3 / Cloistered Cleric 6
9. Dread Necromancer 7 / SandShaper 1 / Dread Witch 1 // Dread Witch Lvl4 / Cloistered Cleric 6
10. Dread Necromancer 8 / SandShaper 1 / Dread Witch 1 // Dread Witch 4 / Cloistered Cleric 7
11 All Dread necro advancement + Walker In the Waste.

Likely Domains Will be Deathbound (adds some nice necromancy that I might have had to Advance learning otherwise), and Planning (free feat and timestop) Although Undeath (+4 turn attempts per pool, so +8 attempts for me ... umm, yes plz?), and travel (helps qualify for Shandshaper easier, opens up Travel Devotion).

It looks a little funny because I put the non-caster advancing level from dreadwitch on one side, and the CL increasing levels on the cleric side. This way I loose 2 CL on DN side from dips and 2 on the Cleric from walker. This preserves my Desert theme, but gives me a useful tool in Fell fear that I don't have to worry about being busted up by immunity.

Feats are Lost Tradition, Fell Drain, DMM FD, Extend, Heat Endurance 1, Southern Magician 3, Touchestone 6, Fell Frighten 9, DMM Fell Frighten 12 , Quicken 15, DMM Quicken 18. The last two feats are purely optional and simply there because I couldn't think of anything better then quicken off DMM.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

You don't need to DMM Frighten. Simply go for Metamagic School Focus (Necromancy) and pick up a Slaymate.

Instead of DMM stuff, I'd suggest Split Ray and Empower for Enervation shennanigans. Particularly if you pick up Arcane Thesis: Enervation. With Metamagic School Focus and a Slaymate, you're paying next to nothing.

This gives you something other to do than fear effects, which has not only debuffing but also has insta-kill-without-a-save potential.

Another option would be Fell Animate + Corpsecrafter + Explosive Retribution.

Grave Mist + Fell Drain + Fell Animate = lots of explosive buddies. Sure, they're going to be temporary, but they're going to go out with a bang.

[SirFredgar]

You don't need to DMM Frighten. Simply go for Metamagic School Focus (Necromancy) and pick up a Slaymate.

Instead of DMM stuff, I'd suggest Split Ray and Empower for Enervation shennanigans. Particularly if you pick up Arcane Thesis: Enervation. With Metamagic School Focus and a Slaymate, you're paying next to nothing.

This gives you something other to do than fear effects, which has not only debuffing but also has insta-kill-without-a-save potential.




Problem is, a slaymate is not assured for me. I might be able to swing one but I cannot count on it, that would also require a 5 feat investment for me: Metamagic School focus, Split, Empower, Arcane Thesis, and Rapid metamagic. Because even though we are reducing the slot adjustment, we aren't decreasing the cast time... and at 1 round per metamagic feat that's a whole 2 rounds casting a split ray empowered enervate, when I could drop the split ray feat and keep the same output casting an empowered enervate alone.




Another option would be Fell Animate + Corpsecrafter + Explosive Retribution.

Grave Mist + Fell Drain + Fell Animate = lots of explosive buddies. Sure, they're going to be temporary, but they're going to go out with a bang.



Yeah, this one I can swing. Fell drain is powered by DMM, which doesn't, by my understanding, increase the cast time (says "as a free action"), so I can Full Round Cast a Fell Drain, Fell Animate Grave Mist (or sandstorm for large scale calamity at higher levels). I had orignially attempted to add the Corpsecrafter + Destructive Retribution combo into an early draft of this build, but couldn't think of any clever ways to power it other then just hand animating things, which would either be expensive in onyx or slowonce I got spellsitched and had animate as a sp. I also was concerned about having to spend actions to get them to pop. The Fell Animate really ties it together.

[Sception]

What level are you all at? 20? If so, you can guarantee access to a Slaymate, same way you guarantee access to any particular corpse you might want for animation: Polymorph any Object. You can nab it through arcane disciple [trickery] on the dread necro end or just having the trickery domain on the clerical side, and note that the domain is kindly granted by Nerull to his followers for this specific purpose, or you can just ask your artificer friend to whip up a scroll or two. If your DM's super lenient, you can try to find a friendly npc cleric of Nerull to cast it for you - the cost for a single cast is only, like, 1,200 per the DMG, iirc. With the zombie, that's still only 1,250 per slaymate - an absolute steal!

Changing, say, a goblin zombie into a slaymate should be permanent duration on PAO. sure, you have to worry about dispel attempts as well as turning. I'd try to keep a few spare slaymates in a bag of holding for this reason.

[SirFredgar]

What level are you all at? 20? If so, you can guarantee access to a Slaymate, same way you guarantee access to any particular corpse you might want for animation: Polymorph any Object. You can nab it through arcane disciple [trickery] on the dread necro end or just having the trickery domain on the clerical side, and note that the domain is kindly granted by Nerull to his followers for this specific purpose, or you can just ask your artificer friend to whip up a scroll or two. If your DM's super lenient, you can try to find a friendly npc cleric of Nerull to cast it for you - the cost for a single cast is only, like, 1,200 per the DMG, iirc. With the zombie, that's still only 1,250 per slaymate - an absolute steal!

Changing, say, a goblin zombie into a slaymate should be permanent duration on PAO. sure, you have to worry about dispel attempts as well as turning. I'd try to keep a few spare slaymates in a bag of holding for this reason.

Love this. I definitely should know someone that can cast it, or at the very least make me scrolls for the occational use. And it seems to be valid with one casting, instead of the double cast PaO cheez I see around.I doubt anyone will be tossing dispells at me, or my minions, but if they do I can make sure they have some low level buffs to ward of area attempts or a ring of counterspell to avoid a target.

If he ends up giving me any bonus feats (he did that in a Saga Edition game) I might follow that up with some metamagic silliness.

Thanks a bunch!

[Fouredged Sword]

Also remember a spellcaster's best friends, metamagic rods. Buy a few for some nice abilities like shaping and such. You may just need that effect, but it's not normally worth a feat.

[SirFredgar]

Also remember a spellcaster's best friends, metamagic rods. Buy a few for some nice abilities like shaping and such. You may just need that effect, but it's not normally worth a feat.

I definitely agree with you. Especially with an artificer in the party I've found that having a few different metamagic rods lying around for different characters to use can be very worth it. Shape is nice one, I was also a huge fan of chain. Can quicken be added to a rod? If it can that's definitely one to have.

I was also going to pick up some enternal wands of some lower level utility spells, since all I need to be is an arcane caster to activate them, iirc. Eternal Staves are something the beguiler and I were looking at wondering if we could (ab)use. We know we need to have the spells on our list to use them, but with a UMD roll of 20 (spell trigger) it says you can use it as if it was on your spell list, or something to that effect. With decent UMD, would I be able to use eternal staves, since I have my own spell slots to burn?

[Fouredged Sword]

Eternal wands can go up to 2nd level spells right?

cleric list
Find traps, augury, curse water, Obscuring mist.

Bard list
Suggestion, Glitterdust

Paladin
Shield other - have a tough intelligent undead use it on you.

Sorc/wiz
True strike, web, see invisible, Command undead.

Also note, the PAO trick also works to turn large undead into zombie dragons (see the special template) and then get awakened to regain their spellcasting.

Yo dog, I hear you like undead, so I let awakened your undead so they can animate undead. Now you can use your control pool to control their control pool.

[SirFredgar]

Eternal wands can go up to 2nd level spells right?

cleric list
Find traps, augury, curse water, Obscuring mist.

...

Paladin
Shield other - have a tough intelligent undead use it on you.




Problem is that Eternal Wands are only 1-3rd level Arcane spells. So while I do have Bard and Sorc, I cannot pick up spells from a paladin or cleric list. However, I had been thinking that with Southern Magician a crafter might be able to make a divine or arcane version of one of their items... but I've go no rulings to support this.

I am also quite happy you guys showed me some of the PaO uses that don't involve the doublecast shennaigans. I never thought, outside of cheezing it, that the spell would bring me, a necromancer, any use.

Also, about my earlier post, they are Rune Staffs I was thinking about, are those any use to a Dread Necromancer?

[MrRigger]

If you can find one with some good spells in it (or craft one with needed spells), runestaffs are very nice for the spontaneous caster. Adds a lot of versatility, even if you can only use one at a time (unless I'm misremembering).

MrRigger

[Sception]

Runestaffs are great, just remember that if the spell isn't on your spell list (and for the theme casters if its on your list you don't need the staff anyway) you need a UMD check (should be the same as wands) to use it.

[Fouredged Sword]

Technically a wand is considered the casting type of the crafter, but the spell itself can be provided by another class. You can make a wand of a divine spell and so long as the character with the crafting feat is arcane the wand's spell is considered an arcane spell.

Also an artificer can act like he can cast any spell and he sets the wand to some odd not arcane not divine spell.

Food for thought.

There is a feat somewhere that lets you use your own caster level for wands. Consider that and some eternal wands of command undead. You can get them cheep at the minimum caster level, and they let you control 3xcl mindless undead creatures per wand. At CL 20 that is 60 15 hd (the toughest creatable by PAO) zombie dragons.

[Sception]

Honestly, by the time you've got easy access to PAO, your second level spell slots aren't doing much for you, I'd just cast Command Undead instead, especially since it's costing you a feat slot to use your HD for that wand - that's just not worth it, imo.

Just set aside three or four or however many you need second level spell slots from your daily regimen.

I do recommend picking up an eternal wand of desecrate, if you've got the UMD to use it, or a friend with it on their spell list.

[deuxhero]

Eternal Wands are only dependent on Arcane Spellcaster stats, not it being on your spell list (finding an Arcane caster with the spell on their list so an Artifcer can make it is another issue)

[Tokuhara]

I'm in a similar boat to the OP, except for the following:

Race: Warforged
Class: Dread Necromancer 20//?? 20

I am jumping into an Epic 3.P Gestalt Game and saw a picture of a Warforged Lich and found myself enarmored by the thought of a Warforged Lich character. I need a PF Base Class that can fill the dead levels of DN and give me optimum Saves, BAB, and fluff for a Warforged named Umbra (and yes, he weilds a black sword :smalltongue:)

[deuxhero]

Anti-Paladin?