Thought Experiment: Pebble Bullets

[Tokuhara]

This is a 3.P thought experiment:

Using 20 levels, I want you to turn a handful of pebbles into a deadly thrown weapon capable of felling any monster.

Rules:

Any race from PFSRD
Any Base Classes/Prestige Classes from all of 3.P
Feats and Traits from 3.P books
2 Flaws, 2 Traits
Must throw pebbles (diminuative/fine improvised weapons) as your primary attack
Cannot enchant pebbles
Must be able to actually be viable in combat


Set-up:
However makes you comfortable. BUT I ask that you guys name the builds.

Reward:
The most sucessful build will be used as a BBEG in an upcoming campaign

[hushblade]

Is there any reason you need to have a character build for this? You're the DM, you can take a dagger throwing build, give him infinite ammo, replace the piercing ammo with bludgeoning, and call it a day, tweak any other features as you see fit.

[Tokuhara]

Is there any reason you need to have a character build for this? You're the DM, you can take a dagger throwing build, give him infinite ammo, replace the piercing ammo with bludgeoning, and call it a day, tweak any other features as you see fit.

Party of Rules Lawyers. I need to do it entirely by RAW, otherwise they will all quit.

a pebble apparently does 1 damage with a 20x2 crit

[skycycle blues]

There is a build that allows for throwing things that deal literally thousands of d6 of damage that involves Hulking Hurler and War Hulk. It's based on having a huge strength, allowing for lifting things that weight several tons.

This should probably involve those two PrCs, both of which require largeness to enter into.

But you'd need some super heavy pebbles.

[Qwertystop]

There's a charge-pool magic item in MIC that does something like this. Pay a varying amount of charges and pull out a pebble, it can be used as a thrown weapon that does several d8 of damage (how many depends on the amount of charges you spend). If you can manage to get a bunch of those (or get an increased charge pool on it), that'd help deal with your damage problem a bit.

[Diefje]

It deals no damage. Unless you can throw so many that you bury the target, it's pretty pointless.

And I'm not about to involve RL physics.

[sengmeng]

A Drunken Master can use literally anything as an improvised weapon, with up to d12 damage, but as a form of monk, he still sucks.

[tyckspoon]

Inspire Courage/Dragonfire Inspiration lets you make a lethal weapon out of basically anything, but it kind of feels like cheating to me; it's close to enchanting the pebbles (as it's a magical effect that you apply on top of them, not really anything to do with the pebbles themselves) and.. well, it doesn't really matter what you use it with, the main point is throwing around 8-12d6 bonus damage per hit.

That said, if you can't use magic pebbles, your challenge basically is finding ways to do weapon-independent bonus damage anyway, and I'm pretty sure IC optimization is the gold standard there.

[Tokuhara]

Ok. I will give a further explaination:

I really see this as one of 3 schools:

"Birdshot" Style (Throwing lots of pebbles)
"Sniper Bullet" Style (Throwing a single pebble as fast as possible)
"Stacker" Style (Adding multiple upon multiple extra damage sources to make pebbles very lethal)

[Ravens_cry]

But you'd need some super heavy pebbles.

If you could keep it contained, a teaspoon (not an unreasonable size for a pebble) of neutronium weighs about a billions tons.
Heavy enough for you?

[TroubleBrewing]

Warhulking Hurler + Iridium pebbles. You want a planet-destroying pebble? Done.

[Tokuhara]

If you could keep it contained, a teaspoon (not an unreasonable size for a pebble) of neutronium weighs about a billions tons.
Heavy enough for you?

The original thought was to use "normal" pebbles to make them lethal and viable

and where in the Gods are you getting Neutronium?

[Tvtyrant]

if the pebbles fall far enough they will do 20d6 each. Since there is no reentry burn, you can fly a bag of holding filled with pebbles up really high and then dump them to destroy everything beneath.

[Tokuhara]

if the pebbles fall far enough they will do 20d6 each. Since there is no reentry burn, you can fly a bag of holding filled with pebbles up really high and then dump them to destroy everything beneath.

Clever... Could you turn it so it becomes a "Shotgun?"

[dgnslyr]

I guess Hulking Hurler with some Shrink Item shenanigans could get you some "pebbles" that weigh a few tons a piece, but those aren't exactly "mundane." You are using perfectly normal boulders, but shrunk by some simple magic.

I like the idea of an Inspire Courage/DFI bard, though, but then you're just doing damage through DFI. I'd say that's a pretty respectable amount of damage, though.

[Ravens_cry]

The original thought was to use "normal" pebbles to make them lethal and viable

Po-TAY-toe, po-TAH-toe.:smalltongue:


and where in the Gods are you getting Neutronium?
Why a Neutron Star of course.
"[Greater Teleport] functions like teleport, except that there is no range limit."
Bracket text added for clarification, text bolded and and italicized for emphases.
Tvtyrant
Doesn't work. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/environment.htm#fallingObjects)
"Objects weighing less than 1 pound do not deal damage to those they land upon, no matter how far they have fallen. "

[Tokuhara]

Question: Are there D&D rules for "Metaphysics," Such as the velocity of an object nearing the speed of light?

[Ravens_cry]

That's not metaphysics.

[sonofzeal]

There's a Maug Graft (Fiend Folio) that attaches what's basically a Rifle to your shoulder and lets you fire Sling Bullets. Going from there to pebbles should be easy.

[Tokuhara]

That's not metaphysics.

So what exactly, in d&d terms, would a 1/8 cubic inch pebble of granite do if going 85% the speed of light?

[Nanoblack]

Well I have something that might be able to be used as a springboard. There is a Maug graft in the Fiend Folio that is like a shoulder mounted pebble cannon. You can load regular stones into it, and in addition to firing them for decent base damage, it can "charge" several stones a day to do additional damage. Not sure if stacking these things would work for mass shots...

EDIT: Ninja'd

[Kane0]

Out of curiosity, does your thought have anything to do with this (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0745.html)?

On topic though. Hmm.
How about using them with slings in some way to make to rules rage?
If there exists a way to use arrows/bolts as legitimate weapons, I cant see the flaw in adapting that to pebbles as sling ammo.
If that tactic fails you would have to resort to using it as an improvised weapon i guess.

I remember a cleric spell that made magic pebbles, called magic stone or something. Thats an old spell though and probably breaks your no enchantments rule.

Anything that gives a bonus to thrown weapons would apply to a thrown pebble. The same should do to improvised weapons.

You might not be able to use the drunken master PrC from one of the Complete Books, but I think that might be the kind of direction you would want to go it for improvised weapon usage. Otherwise focus on thrown weapons in a STR build, maybe rogue to get sneak attacks and benefits from DEX too...

EDIT: Also you can try abusing mage hand. As a move action you shoot a pebble (<5lb) 15 feet within the range of the spell (short: 25ft +5ft/level)

[sonofzeal]

So what exactly, in d&d terms, would a 1/8 cubic inch pebble of granite do if going 85% the speed of light?
Nothing special. D&D verifiably does not include such concepts as "light speed", nor do the other laws of physics obey real-world expectations. For example, a bird can fly to any arbitrary height. In our world, the force of the earth's gravity will diminish gradually the farther you get, but in D&D gravity always pulls you downward the same way, barring spell effects of course.

Even Newton's Laws don't hold. Don't expect theoretical physics to cross over.

[Tvtyrant]

Po-TAY-toe, po-TAH-toe.:smalltongue:

Why a Neutron Star of course.
"[Greater Teleport] functions like teleport, except that there is no range limit."
Bracket text added for clarification, text bolded and and italicized for emphases.
Tvtyrant
Doesn't work. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/environment.htm#fallingObjects)
"Objects weighing less than 1 pound do not deal damage to those they land upon, no matter how far they have fallen. "

1 pound pebbles? Shrink item works well for that.

[Tokuhara]

No. That is funny though.

Would a Factotum 1/Rogue 4/Zen Archer Monk 5/Drunken Master 10 deal a decent amount of damage by combining Iaijutsu Focus, Sneak Attack, Improved Improvised Weapon, Flurry of Throws, and Unarmed Strike Stacking?

[Waker]

If you would allow homebrew I would have suggested the Halfling Rock Skipping Champion found here http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=9623050#post9623050
As that is not the case though, lemme see.
You may want to consider taking levels in Ninja from PF. Ki Charge in particular is a talent to consider, though it isn't exceptionally powerful, it would give you a bit more umph with throwing rocks. You could also take levels of Fighter to gain faster access to feats and a good BAB.
Feats to consider:
Arcane Strike- Means you don't have to enchant the stones. Requires spellcasting dip.
Close-Quarters Thrower- Can't think of a way to get proficiency with Improv Weapons yet though.
Clustered Shots
Deadly Aim
Throw Anything
Improvised Weapon Mastery

Since you're an anime nerd too, figured you might like this.
http://www.mangafox.com/manga/mahou_sensei_negima/v11/c094/10.html

[Ravens_cry]

1 pound pebbles? Shrink item works well for that.
Ah, Shrink Item. So many uses around the home.
Converting a small pool of lava to flannelgraph form and then wearing it like a cape until you need is both suicidally badass and a pretty awesome way to take out a baddie.
It's also a perfect way to work in a Princess Bride reference.

[sonofzeal]

No. That is funny though.

Would a Factotum 1/Rogue 4/Zen Archer Monk 5/Drunken Master 10 deal a decent amount of damage by combining Iaijutsu Focus, Sneak Attack, Improved Improvised Weapon, Flurry of Throws, and Unarmed Strike Stacking?
You can only Flurry with specific weapons, and I'm pretty sure pebbles aren't on the list. If your group is as RAW-obsessed as they sound, they'll jump all over that.

Your better bet is to drop Monk/DM entirely and just focus on precision/strength damage. Iaijutsu is not a bad idea (though verify it works with ranged), as is precision damage. Skirmish or Sneak Attack sounds like a good avenue to follow, as would conventional throwing weapon options such as Master Thrower. Daring Outlaw, perhaps?

[Jack_Simth]

Simple answer:
Halfling (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/races/core-races/halfling) Rogue (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/rogue), focused on stealth (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/skills/stealth) (and more specifically, sniping).

Take Use Magic Device, and use a wand of Magic Aura to get rid of the aura on the assorted items that will be on the character (any item that increases your Hide check and stacks with the other items you have - Greater Shadow armor for +15 seems to be the highest Competence in the PFSRD). Also take as many feats to increase or improve your Stealth check as you can find (Skill Focus(Stealth), Stealthy, Darkstalker if it's available, and so on).

Then just stealth between 10 and 30 feet from the party, and snipe them with the 10d6 sneak attack (or whatever it is).

[Tokuhara]

definitely great ideas, but so far no actual builds. Kinda sad actually.

and the idea came from this: Kaname Hagiri (http://yuyuhakusho.wikia.com/wiki/Kaname_Hagiri)

[Fax Celestis]

Not going to put together a build, but you can probably do something with magic stone and giant's wrath. The first makes some pebbles into effectively +1 weapons, and the second makes pebbles turn into boulders. They're both on the druid list.

[Safety Sword]

So what exactly, in d&d terms, would a 1/8 cubic inch pebble of granite do if going 85% the speed of light?

Damage is calculated at 1d12+7 cat girls.

[lorddrake]

I'm not sure (since I guess you don't wanna crush completely your players) and not sure about the rules (I never read). But wouldn't a 2d crusader would deal infinite damage with a weapon that deals only 1 of damage?

[Heliomance]

I was about to say, there has to be a way to 1d2 Crusader this.

[Qwertystop]

If it doesn't do damage that is rolled, 1d2 Crusader can't do anything with it.

Also, I believe that all the methods of re-rolling 1s mean you don't count the 1, so if you treated it as 1d1 damage, it would do nothing until you decided to stop rerolling.

[lorddrake]

If it doesn't do damage that is rolled, 1d2 Crusader can't do anything with it.

Also, I believe that all the methods of re-rolling 1s mean you don't count the 1, so if you treated it as 1d1 damage, it would do nothing until you decided to stop rerolling.

I don't have books on me right now. The ability says rolling? Because 1 is maximum damage of 1... But if it mentions rolling damage it does not work as I thought by RAW...

[Qwertystop]

I don't have books on me right now. The ability says rolling? Because 1 is maximum damage of 1... But if it mentions rolling damage it does not work as I thought by RAW...

I'm pretty sure it says if you roll maximum damage you roll again and add that. The typical way to reroll is a Domain ability that lets you count all 1s as 2s, though there is also one that allows the reroll of all 1s.

[Gotterdammerung]

Too bad no enchanting. Flame arrow with some metamagic tricks can get lava pebbles going.


Working within the guidelines though, all I can see would be

use the pebble as an improvised melee weapon.

Then use armor bonded's crashdown armor graft from pathfinder with roofjumper from cityscape and anti-impact armor enhancement from complete warrior.

You can free fall 500 feet in a 1 round fall.

So the damage would be pebble damage + 49d6 + any charge damage cheese you want to throw onto it and then 50d6 to everything in a 10foot radius

You would take half of 20d6 - 25 damage for yourself.


I recommend factotum as a base chassis so you can use spells to get up that high. 14 factotum/ 6 armor bonded

[Tokuhara]

Ok. By "No Enchanting," I meant no +5 Vorpal Returning Pebbles. However, if by using spells you can achieve a near-lightspeed pebble, that's all good

[Waker]

Fine, I guess I can partially stat up a character, though I'm gonna leave holes in it here and there since it's not something I plan on playing. Here are the basics.

David the Gnome
Gnome Ranger 14/Sorcerer 1/Master Thrower 5
Ranger will take the Guide variant which gives him access to Ranger's Focus, granting a +6 attk/dmg on a certain foe. He'll take the Archery combat style and take the following feats: Far Shot, Improved Precise Shot and Shot on the Run.
Sorcerer was taken to meet the requirements for Arcane Strike. The feat requires an ability to cast arcane spells, but the increasing enhancement bonus does not specify where the caster levels come from. Thus your racial SLAs determine the bonus damage, giving you a +5 on your rocks.
Master Thrower gives you Defensive Throw, Palm Throw and Weak Spot. Palm Throw deserves special mention as it effectively doubles the number of attacks you make. The only downside is that Rangers Focus and arguably Deadly Aim can't be applied to both attacks as they are precision damage.
Feats taken: Throw Anything, Improvised Weapon Mastery, Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Weapon Focus (Dagger), Deadly Aim, Arcane Strike, Clustered Shots, Improved Initiative, Rapid Shot
Feats from Classes: Far Shot, Improved Precise Shot, Shot on the Run, Snatch Arrows, Improved Critical (Dagger)

Hit (excluding Dex Bonus)- +19 BAB +5 Arcane +6 Rangers Focus -5 Deadly Aim +1 Small Size= +26
Damage (excluding Strength Bonus)- 1d2 (Improved Weapon Mastery) + 5 Arcane Strike +6 Rangers Focus +10 Deadly Aim (+1d2 +5 Arcane Strike granted from Palm Throw)= 1d2 +21 (1d2 +5) damage

Both of the above can be increased by 1 if the target is within 30ft due to Point Blank Shot as well. And if you felt like being a bastard, because of Improvised Weapon Mastery, the pebble deals 1d2 damage allowing the possible infinite crusader damage trick, though that can be done by someone else.
If you don't count Rangers Focus and Deadly Aim as precision damage (since it seems more RAI than RAW) you can deal a minimum of 220 damage if every attack hits (or 230 if within 30ft.) Hitting with every attack is fairly likely too, since your lowest iterative attack still has a +9 to hit before Dexterity.

[Fax Celestis]

If it doesn't do damage that is rolled, 1d2 Crusader can't do anything with it.

Also, I believe that all the methods of re-rolling 1s mean you don't count the 1, so if you treated it as 1d1 damage, it would do nothing until you decided to stop rerolling.

So use Large pebbles. They'd deal 1d2, and you'd only take a -4 off-size penalty.

[lorddrake]

So use Large pebbles. They'd deal 1d2, and you'd only take a -4 off-size penalty.

With 1d2 d2 crusader is actually possible...

[Suddo]

I guess Hulking Hurler with some Shrink Item shenanigans could get you some "pebbles" that weigh a few tons a piece, but those aren't exactly "mundane." You are using perfectly normal boulders, but shrunk by some simple magic.

I like the idea of an Inspire Courage/DFI bard, though, but then you're just doing damage through DFI. I'd say that's a pretty respectable amount of damage, though.

Throw your shrunken boulders into an antimagic field. Or fill a bag of holding with said pebbles into an antimagic field. Or full multiple bags of holding, kept together with a normal bag so you can count it as 1 item, filled with said pebbles into an antimagic field. Have fun.

[Gotterdammerung]

Ok. By "No Enchanting," I meant no +5 Vorpal Returning Pebbles. However, if by using spells you can achieve a near-lightspeed pebble, that's all good

The lava rocks takes to long to type out.

Im just gonna stick with the 99d6 damage pebble.