gish help

[utherphoenyx]

hi i am making a 15th lvl gish and i will through it out here and mod it as i have completed it so far i am a tiefling swashbuckler 4/ wizard 5/adbjurant champ 5
my stats are STR:15, Dex: 20, con: 16, int: 20, Wis: 14, Cha: 10 before items

[skycycle blues]

Why Swashbuckler 4 instead of just 3?

Also, instead of Swashbuckler, you probably want something that better qualifies you for Spellsword, and unless you're really tied to Tiefling, human might be better.

Are those stats with the level increases?

A build that I haven't played but seems cool is
Duskblade 3/Wizard 3/SpellSword 1/Abjurant Champion 5 and then something like Sacred Exorcist for the rest.
Wind up with 9th level spells and 16 BAB at level 20.

But if you're really committed to the build you have, you might want to change it to
Swashbuckler 3/Wizard 4/Abjurant Champion 5/Any two levels of full casting and preferably full, but probably medium BAB.

Swashbuckler 4 is a dead level and you don't want to take it in a gish build.

[utherphoenyx]

i don't want spellsword and yes i am tied to tiefling and yes they are with stat increases

[Psyren]

i don't want spellsword and yes i am tied to tiefling and yes they are with stat increases

Why not? It's easy to qualify for, and gives +1 BAB and +1 casting with a useful class feature. It's like the 6th level of Abjurant Champion.

Instead of Swash 4, you could even go Swash 3/Fighter 1 and grab a feat along with the rest of the proficiencies.

[gbprime]

But if you're really committed to the build you have, you might want to change it to
Swashbuckler 3/Wizard 4/Abjurant Champion 5/Any two levels of full casting and preferably full, but probably medium BAB.

Swashbuckler 4 is a dead level and you don't want to take it in a gish build.

THIS.

Duskblade is superior to Swashbuckler for a gish build for a ton of reasons, most of which are spell channelling. :smallbiggrin: But you don't need the Swash INT to damage either, since you can just pick all the damage you need with Arcane Strike feat plus Duskblade's channelling.

Another vital gish feat is Minor Shapeshift from Complete Mage. Hold a polymorph in reserve and grant yourself 14 Temp HP each round as a free action.

[Hirax]

Wizard (fighter variant (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#wizard))6/swiftblade (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/prc/20070327)3/abjurant champ5/swiftblade (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/prc/20070327)+6

If your DM is willing to let fractional BAB stack, replace wizard6 with mindbender1, or anything else, really. Swiftblade requires BAB of 3, so your 6th level just needs to get you there.

[Little Brother]

You're going to want more casting. Losing caster levels is bad. Losing 4 is really bad.

I hate to give the obvious answer, but you're going to want something like Paladin 2/Sorcerer 4/Spellsword 1/Abjurant Champion 5/Sacred Exorcist X. That gives you access to light armor, you're going to have, assuming 3 levels of SE, 12 BAB, and you cast as a level 13 sorcerer. You cast as a level 11 wizard, and appear to have no ability to cast in armor. Your saves and AC Will be mediocre at best. If you REALLY want wizard casting, you can just go Spellscale Loredrake Dragonwrought Kobold, but this build should be fine. Stick it on, say, a Magic-Blooded Lesser Aasimar, for +4 Charisma and a couple tasty SLAs at no LA, and your casting should be fine.

[Thurbane]

You're going to want more casting. Losing caster levels is bad. Losing 4 is really bad.
Except that, you know, Tier 1 level 16 casting still dominates most other classes in the game, except Tier 1 casters of higher CL. :smalltongue:

[Little Brother]

Except that, you know, Tier 1 level 16 casting still dominates most other classes in the game, except Tier 1 casters of higher CL. :smalltongue:Except 9th level spells of a tier two class>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>8th level spells of a tier 1 class. Period.

Also, the Sorcadin has 1 point higher BAB. Overall stronger.Plus, turn undead is tasty.

[gbprime]

Also, the Sorcadin has 1 point higher BAB. Overall stronger.Plus, turn undead is tasty.

Are you actually advocating making a sorcadin out of a race with a CHA penalty that has neither class as a favored class?

[utherphoenyx]

why not cause personally i am against it roleplay wise the character is a nimble warrior using a spiked chain... and my dm is kinda an ass about xp pens so i did it to appease him and thirdly what is the point of being in a PrC without actually progressing it at least half-way and like i said before the dm freaks out at multi-classing including PrCs

[utherphoenyx]

You're going to want more casting. Losing caster levels is bad. Losing 4 is really bad.

I hate to give the obvious answer, but you're going to want something like Paladin 2/Sorcerer 4/Spellsword 1/Abjurant Champion 5/Sacred Exorcist X. That gives you access to light armor, you're going to have, assuming 3 levels of SE, 12 BAB, and you cast as a level 13 sorcerer. You cast as a level 11 wizard, and appear to have no ability to cast in armor. Your saves and AC Will be mediocre at best. If you REALLY want wizard casting, you can just go Spellscale Loredrake Dragonwrought Kobold, but this build should be fine. Stick it on, say, a Magic-Blooded Lesser Aasimar, for +4 Charisma and a couple tasty SLAs at no LA, and your casting should be fine.

actually im not losesing CL i am loseing and only slightly spell slots my CL is my BAB which i get +4 from swashbuckler

[Little Brother]

Are you actually advocating making a sorcadin out of a race with a CHA penalty that has neither class as a favored class?
Oh, missed that. Teiflings are terrible, though. You can apply the Magic-Blooded template to counteract it, though, so it's not too much of a problem.

why not cause personally i am against it roleplay wise the character is a nimble warrior using a spiked chain... and my dm is kinda an ass about xp pens so i did it to appease him and thirdly what is the point of being in a PrC without actually progressing it at least half-way and like i said before the dm freaks out at multi-classing including PrCsLesser Aasimar. Favored class paladin. You can do a similar idea on an Aasimar. You can wear Mythril chain shirt for light armor, and a spiked chain, but you also get stuff like Divine Might or DMM. The point of a PrC without finishing it is the same as taking some base class without finishing it. Mindbender 1 is good. Mindbender 10 is god-awful. Spellsword and Abjurant Champion are very similar, ability-wise. Abjurant Champion is really, effectively a 6-level PrC. You can take Sacred Exorcist far if you want, you lose nothing from it.

And the Sorcadin is quite easy to fluff if your DM is a stickler for that, so there's no problem there.

actually im not losesing CL i am loseing and only slightly spell slots my CL is my BAB which i get +4 from swashbucklerYou still lose 4 Your BAB is 4 from Swashbuckler, plus 2 from Wizard, and 5 from Abjurant Champion. 4+2+5=11=four lost caster levels. Also, LA is bad.

[skycycle blues]

why not cause personally i am against it roleplay wise the character is a nimble warrior using a spiked chain... and my dm is kinda an ass about xp pens so i did it to appease him and thirdly what is the point of being in a PrC without actually progressing it at least half-way and like i said before the dm freaks out at multi-classing including PrCs

He shouldn't be applying xp penalties for PrCs because the rules explicitly say that PrCs don't count for xp penalties. If they did, anybody that had more than 2 levels in any class would instantly get an xp penalty when they enter a Prestige.

The point of taking Spellsword 1 and not taking it further is because anything beyond the first level sucks because it's a half casting class that doesn't grant enough to make up for losing spells.

I don't understand how role playing would be against a Spellsword dip. The whole flavor of Spellsword is some kind of warrior that deals out both magical assault and regular types of attacks. The first level of Spellsword makes it easier for you to do that, by giving you a better chance to hit, more spells and the ability to cast in a mithral chain shirt with no problems. If there's any type of armor that is ideal for nimble warriors, it would be mithral chain shirts.

But are you opposed to Sacred Exorcist? It's really good for a Gish build as long as you can make it fit the character because it's full casting and 3/4 BAB, which is really hard to come by for arcane casting. It also grants Turn Undead, which can be very useful.

Swashbuckler 3/Wizard 4/Abjurant Champion 5/Sacred Exorcist 2
gives you 11 BAB and 6th level spells.

Your initial build gives you 11 BAB and 5th level spells.

Are you using LA buyoff?

[utherphoenyx]

no im not cause the dm is kinda new i going easy on him and i like the fluff personally but i got it covered now thx just need spells now... i would like sudjestions of spells and why at what lvl and where can i find them.

[skycycle blues]

Well, are you thinking about being a specialist wizard? I would recommend doing that because it grants you more spells per level and as a Gish, you can easily dump Illusion and Enchantment. If you go that route, I'd recommend specializing in either Abjuration or Transmutation, maybe Evocation, but I think Abj and Trans are better.

Are you sticking with your original build or using the one I suggested?

Also, what books do you have available? Are you using flaws? Do you need feat and item suggestions? And what is your alignment (might be required for certain things)?

Or do you just need help with spell selection now? How many spells are you looking to have in your spell book and what specifically do you want to do with them?

[Rubik]

Well, are you thinking about being a specialist wizard? I would recommend doing that because it grants you more spells per level and as a Gish, you can easily dump Illusion evocation and Enchantment. If you go that route, I'd recommend specializing in either Abjuration or Transmutation, maybe Evocation Illusion, but I think Abj and Trans are better.FTFY.

Illusion is an amazing defensive school, and necromancy and evocation don't have much to offer a gish that you can't get in other ways.

[darksolitaire]

Illusion gets you mischance and mirror images. This can't be dumped. :smallconfused: Necromancy contains mostly debuffs, you can drop that. Evocation contains flashy stuff, but it can be replicated somewhat with transmutation, conjuration and illusion. So specialist wizard based gish would want to drop enchantment, necromancy and evocation.

[utherphoenyx]

i have access to spell compendium and core and i am sticking with original build i have feats covered...um also going argent savant all five lvls if i get the chance atm greater mage armor will last me 22 hrs and add an 11 armor bonus.. so sticking with that..

[utherphoenyx]

also need a good alignment for him cuz again dm is weird and a stickler for alignment even counts ticks towards law/chaos/good/evil.....the irony i have been able to talk my way outta some of it before like i hid someone to help them then group 2 chassing them asks if i have seen them i ask for money as a finders fee and point them to exactly the spot they are at for about 500 gold or so... i.e. i am neutral in good-evil

[Coidzor]

Are you actually advocating making a sorcadin out of a race with a CHA penalty that has neither class as a favored class?

It is practically a given that any given someone will advocate throwing out the favored class rules, after all.

[utherphoenyx]

sorry to necro the question but any sudjestions for spells with the same character for planes walking?

[Randomguy]

Some good gish spells: Polymorph, trollshape, displacement, blur, blink, greater blink, fly, overland flight, shield, mage armour, phantom steed, shocking grasp (To channel if duskblade), plane shift (You can channel this as well), dismissal, banishment, dimension door, weapon of energy, mighty wallop (If you use a bludgeoning weapon), wraithstrike, vampiric touch (If you didn't ban necromancy, good to channel), bestow curse (good to channel), Bite of the ___, blades of fire, blade of pain and fear, Brilliant blade, cacophonic shield, enlarge person, corrosive grasp (only to channel, otherwise don't bother) and girallon's blessing, tremorsense and see invisibility.

[utherphoenyx]

okay tyvm for the spell sudjgestions is a boccobs blessed book a good item to snag for a wizard gish?