Pathfinder and poisons?

[rubycona]

Hey, all.

I'm now playing instead of DMing, and I thought I'd try a poisony, dagger-wielding, assassiny character, for grins and giggles, since I've never played a rogue, never used a dagger, and have never even seen poisons aside from natural monster attacks.

So I look them up (Seen here (/www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/afflictions/poison)) and it looks to me like they're woefully underpowered and overpriced. I looked at Arsenic, for example, and it seemed to me, a 0 fort save character would have a 64% chance of having no damage at all (because it has an onset - 2 saves to take damage, 40% chance of saving each time, possibly did my math wrong, but it should be close, at any rate), does an absolute max of 8 con dmg, and it costs a whopping 120gp for that lousy chance.

Unless I'm missing something. Which I hope I am. We've already come up with a few ways to try to improve it, but it's fundamentally so weak, I'm struggling. Honestly, it seems easier to kill a commoner by undercooking their chicken >.> At least with ingested poisons like arsenic, you can increase the dosage (at a corresponding cost, of course), but injury poisons don't get that at all. It's just... lousy.

Have I misunderstood something? Is there a simple way to make poisons non-retarded? Any tips or ideas on how to make that element work well?

[agentnone]

You read that right. If the person makes the fort save DC right away, then they aren't affected by it at all. Since it only requires one successful save to stave off the effects, then it's posible to avoid any damage entirely. But, the poisons in the core rulebook are mostly for the DM to use for NPCs to have. And at that low save, its something the players would come into contact with at low levels. The cost could be used for a DM to toss into randomly generated treasure, or maybe a bandit's equipment cost. The higher level you get, the more money you should have to buy better, stronger potions. Plus, all it takes is for the target to roll a 1 on the saving throw. Since a 1 is an automatic failure. Plus squishy caster types are known for low Fort saves, so they should be the primary target of these attacks. But yes, you're right, it's easy to resist and kind of pricey, so not really worth it.

[Bhaakon]

Poisons were a real beast in 2e, many were save or die (and most of those still dealt a hefty amount of damage, enough to kill a low-level character outright if the save was successful). 3e and, by extension, pathfinder rolled them back pretty significantly.

I understand the desire to get rid of cheap, mundane save or suck/save or die effects, as they can be game breaking at low level, but most poisons in PF are still probably overpriced by a factor of 10. If they're going to be this weak, they should at least be inexpensive enough to use in every encounter.

[Duncan_Ruadrik]

the thing about the poisons is that they are just suggestions. In theory, you should be able to craft poisons that are not in the rules with a Craft: Poisons roll. If I remember correctly, there was a fellow at brilliant gameologist or at the paizo message boards that broke it down, and explained (mostly) how to do it. They were much more cost effective than the stock poisons. I can't remember where or by who, otherwise I'd link it. Sorry.

[agentnone]

I understand the desire to get rid of cheap, mundane save or suck/save or die effects, as they can be game breaking at low level, but most poisons in PF are still probably overpriced by a factor of 10. If they're going to be this weak, they should at least be inexpensive enough to use in every encounter.

To piggy back on this, work with your DM and see if maybe every time you purchase this, it's a vial that gives you 5 applications instead of 1. At least for some or most of them. Keeps them from being over-priced for an under-effect.

[Yora]

the thing about the poisons is that they are just suggestions. In theory, you should be able to craft poisons that are not in the rules with a Craft: Poisons roll. If I remember correctly, there was a fellow at brilliant gameologist or at the paizo message boards that broke it down, and explained (mostly) how to do it. They were much more cost effective than the stock poisons. I can't remember where or by who, otherwise I'd link it. Sorry.

This one? (http://davidvs.net/games/pathfinder-poisons.shtml) Think it looks good.

[stack]

Alchemists make good poisoners by default. Super craft alchemy checks, immunity as a class feature, and swift poisoning to actually bring them into play during combat.

[Lord Bingo]

I suspect the thing with poisons in PF (as well as vanilla 3.5) is that they were really not intended to be used by players, and are hence balanced so as to give players a reasonable chance to survive them, and priced to make their use unattractive.

Arsenic, in point of fact, should be cheap as dirt! It takes a fair amount of it to kill a man and in the past it was commonly used to kill rats, treat syphilis, as pigment in paints, treat wood to prevent rot, etc.