Inspired!!.....to make a spear/sword and shield warrior

[ranger557]

As in the title, I saw the Immortal movie and i was inspired to make an old fashion spear and shield warrior. However, since this is DnD it has to be more epic and crazy fun, right? So what I thought of from watching the main character from the movie act and fight as would be a Warblade. I know the Crusader has better manuevers for shields, but I feel like the whole movie everybody fighting with a sword/spear and shield were all out warriors trying to kick some butt. Here is what I made so far, tell me what you guys think are the best feats to compliment this build.

Human Warblade Lvl 5

Str 20 (using PF stat)
Dex 16
Con 16
Wis 13
Int 15
Cha 13

Weapons: Shortspear, Gladius(PF), and Heavy Steel shield

Maneuvers: Moment of Perfect Mind, Steel Wind, Wall of blades, Emerald Razor, Sapphire Nightmare Blade, Iron Heart Surge
Stances: Punishing Stance, Leading the Charge

[ClothedInVelvet]

Looks interesting. I haven't seen the movie, but the phalanx was originally intended to feature long spears. That's why the gladius was used, for when the enemy got inside that range.

Are your companions going to play similar characters? There are a number of tactical feats that might work at that point, though I don't recall any of them being very optimized.

[Feytalist]

Unfortunately, you can't really use longspears one handed.

There's a bunch of nice shield feats if you want to go shield basher. Or Agile Shield Fighter for TWF with a shield. Doesn't work as well with martial maneuvres, of course.

You need a whole lot of feats, though. Something like Improved Shield Bash, Shield Specialisation, Agile Shield Fighter, Shield Ward thrown in for good measure, Shield Charge and Shield Slam for charging goodness (those work well with White Raven's charge maneuvres, and I think Stone Dragon also has one or two of those) and then Power Attack-Improved Bull Rush-Shock Trooper because why not.

'Course, a bit feat intensive. Otherwise just go with a bunch of ToB feats. Those are usually worth your while.

[Darrin]

Unfortunately, you can't really use longspears one handed.


Kobolds can (via a loose interpretation of Slight Build), but the longspear has to be tiny-sized.

[Axier]

Monkey Grip?

[GodGoblin]

Monkey Grip?

Doesnt work like that, would allow a large standard spear instead but doesnt have the reach.

As you are using some PF things have you looked at the Fighter Archetype (I think its called the Hoplite) that allows a spear and shield combo?

Ill have a look on the srd now...
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/fighter/archetypes/paizo---fighter-archetypes/phalanx-soldier

Ah its called the Phalanx soldier

[Gwendol]

Spear/shortsword and shield combo perhaps? I think Feytalist has the relevant feats down alright. I especially suggest getting the shield charge and slam feats, as well as getting pounce to be able to full attack on a charge (shield charge, shield slam, spear thrust on tripped/dazed enemy, then wait for the AoO as the poor sap stands).
If you are able to fit a tactical feat in there, even better (chock trooper has already been suggested).
The nice thing with the spear is that it also can be thrown for ranged attacks.

[Achernar]

Just because of this, I usually run variant rules that allow longspears to be wielded one-handed as martial weapons, and most of the veteran soldier-type NPCs are familiar with this kind of fighting. Perhaps your DM could allow this, seeing as shortspears are the just about the worst one-handed weapons in the game (They can't be braced/set-against-charge, they only crit x2 and have poor range and do pierce damage. Even clubs are better, considering they're free and work on skeletons).

P.S.: Cool character concept. Keep us posted on how he develops!

[ranger557]

Unfortunately, you can't really use longspears one handed.

There's a bunch of nice shield feats if you want to go shield basher. Or Agile Shield Fighter for TWF with a shield. Doesn't work as well with martial maneuvres, of course.

You need a whole lot of feats, though. Something like Improved Shield Bash, Shield Specialisation, Agile Shield Fighter, Shield Ward thrown in for good measure, Shield Charge and Shield Slam for charging goodness (those work well with White Raven's charge maneuvres, and I think Stone Dragon also has one or two of those) and then Power Attack-Improved Bull Rush-Shock Trooper because why not.

'Course, a bit feat intensive. Otherwise just go with a bunch of ToB feats. Those are usually worth your while.

Yes, i totally agree those are the feats mostly used for shielded characters, I am definitely considering which feats to take from that list, but figuring out which ones i would use the most is what I'm thinking. Also I'm not really worried about reach, because how I think of it, they used the spear to attack offensively from the movie and threw it when needed to be. So I'm following that concept and going Warblade because Iron heart and Diamond Mind feel so right like s'mores on a campfire, that they fit well for a weapon warrior of sorts.

From the Warblade's Handbook:
Shield Bashing – If you choose to pursue it, shield bashing can be a very nice choice. Once you can afford an animated shield (shield bashers should get one ASAP), you should switch to a two-handed weapon to maximize damage; a reach weapon is excellent, since feats like Shield Slam enhance your tank capability. Add shield spikes and you can enchant your shield like a normal weapon – and obviously, you’ll want the Bashing shield property from the DMG.

Shield bashing is a combat style that can take a while to pan out, and requires a heavy feat investment – but at mid to high levels, a shield basher has the potential to become a great tank.

Obtaining information from this, I wonder how can you still be a shield basher, if you have an animated shield hovering 2 feet from you? Don't all the feats invested into the shield get wasted because you aren't using your shield in your hand anymore?


Doesnt work like that, would allow a large standard spear instead but doesnt have the reach.

As you are using some PF things have you looked at the Fighter Archetype (I think its called the Hoplite) that allows a spear and shield combo?

Ill have a look on the srd now...
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/fighter/archetypes/paizo---fighter-archetypes/phalanx-soldier

Ah its called the Phalanx soldier

Thanks for the info. I have the book with the archetypes and I looked into it and its pretty interesting. I think though its only worth the 3-level dip and thats it. However, that's a sucky way to multiclass into Warblade because of initiator levels =/. So hopefully I can houserule with my DM to let me wield the spear as a one handed weapon, he's pretty cool with things like this.


Just because of this, I usually run variant rules that allow longspears to be wielded one-handed as martial weapons, and most of the veteran soldier-type NPCs are familiar with this kind of fighting. Perhaps your DM could allow this, seeing as shortspears are the just about the worst one-handed weapons in the game (They can't be braced/set-against-charge, they only crit x2 and have poor range and do pierce damage. Even clubs are better, considering they're free and work on skeletons).

P.S.: Cool character concept. Keep us posted on how he develops!

Yes, definitely I agree. Hopefully, like i said previously that my DM will let me use the spear with one hand. Looking into the feats and equipment, so I'll definitely keep you guys posted, thanks! :smallbiggrin:.

[Person_Man]

I suggest:

Play as a Small race that always rides a Medium mount. This will let you use a Lance one handed (which is very similar to a spear) and use a shield, and it gives you superior damage output and mobility.

OR

Quick Draw feat: At your ECL it's really not worth investing in magic weapons, because the return on investment doesn't really kick in until you can afford +3ish weapons. So you could use Quickdraw, and alternate between nets, short spears (which you can also throw) + shield, and long spears (two handed, for reach) as needed (even during other people's turns), and just carry 5-10ish of each.

OR

Spinning Sword: Basically a Spiked Chain that you can only use with one hand. Requires Exotic Weapon Proficiency to use without penalty. A nice DM will basically let you just re-fluff it as a spear. Secrets of Sarlona, pg 136.

OR

Long Reach feat: 5 to 10 ft of reach with shortspear or spear, 10 to 15 ft of reach with longspear. Both only work on your action, and thus do not increase your threatened area when it's not your turn. It's a poorly written feat, so a nice DM would just give you +5 ft of reach with your choice of spear. Regional requirement. Unapproachable East pg 44.


You might also want to consider:

Shield Charge feat: When you attack with a shield as part of a Charge, you get a free Trip attack. Requires Improved Shield Bash. Complete Warrior pg 105.

Shield Slam feat: When you attack with a shield as part of a Charge, your enemy must also Save or be Dazed for 1 round, which almost nothing is immune to. Because of the pre-reqs this would have to be your 6th level feat when you get there. Complete Warrior pg 105.

Crystal of Arrow Deflection: If you're not going the Quickdraw route, this is a good low level addition to your shield. It adds a minor untyped AC bonus to all ranged attacks, and gives you Deflect Arrows with your shield (you don't need a free hand), which is extremely effective at low levels against ranged enemies. Cheap. MIC.

[gbprime]

Yes, definitely I agree. Hopefully, like i said previously that my DM will let me use the spear with one hand. Looking into the feats and equipment, so I'll definitely keep you guys posted, thanks! :smallbiggrin:.

If you shrink a 2 handed weapon by one size category, it becomes 1 handed, per the SRD. But it does not effect the reach of the weapon.

So a medium character using a "small" Longspear can use it 1 handed for 1d6 and still have 10' reach. Just call it something like a "Phalanx Spear" instead of a "Small Longspear".

Failing that, the shield-and-spear motif is crying for a homebrew Weapon Style feat. :smallconfused:

[JaronK]

Note there's a "Shield and Pike Style" feat that lets you use certain pole arms (including the Longspear) along with a Light Shield. That's about as close as you can get to the spear and shield concept. Consider using a Spiked light shield, and ask your DM if you can use the Dwarven Warpike as your polearm (it's not on the list, but it fits).

Now you can make a character that fights with the shield up close and trips enemies at long range. A basic build would be Lion/Wolf Totem Barbarian 2/Fighter 2/Crusader X. Use Shield Block and Shield Counter as maneuvers, and use Shield Charge and Shield Slam to attack enemies (Shield Charge goes amazingly with Improved Trip for obvious reasons). You should be able to debilitate most enemies easily.

JaronK

[ranger557]

I suggest:

Play as a Small race that always rides a Medium mount. This will let you use a Lance one handed (which is very similar to a spear) and use a shield, and it gives you superior damage output and mobility.

OR

Quick Draw feat: At your ECL it's really not worth investing in magic weapons, because the return on investment doesn't really kick in until you can afford +3ish weapons. So you could use Quickdraw, and alternate between nets, short spears (which you can also throw) + shield, and long spears (two handed, for reach) as needed (even during other people's turns), and just carry 5-10ish of each.

OR

Spinning Sword: Basically a Spiked Chain that you can only use with one hand. Requires Exotic Weapon Proficiency to use without penalty. A nice DM will basically let you just re-fluff it as a spear. Secrets of Sarlona, pg 136.

OR

Long Reach feat: 5 to 10 ft of reach with shortspear or spear, 10 to 15 ft of reach with longspear. Both only work on your action, and thus do not increase your threatened area when it's not your turn. It's a poorly written feat, so a nice DM would just give you +5 ft of reach with your choice of spear. Regional requirement. Unapproachable East pg 44.


You might also want to consider:

Shield Charge feat: When you attack with a shield as part of a Charge, you get a free Trip attack. Requires Improved Shield Bash. Complete Warrior pg 105.

Shield Slam feat: When you attack with a shield as part of a Charge, your enemy must also Save or be Dazed for 1 round, which almost nothing is immune to. Because of the pre-reqs this would have to be your 6th level feat when you get there. Complete Warrior pg 105.

Crystal of Arrow Deflection: If you're not going the Quickdraw route, this is a good low level addition to your shield. It adds a minor untyped AC bonus to all ranged attacks, and gives you Deflect Arrows with your shield (you don't need a free hand), which is extremely effective at low levels against ranged enemies. Cheap. MIC.

Thanks for the advice, i appreciate it. However, I'm going for more flavor and concept than optimization, but I keep forgetting this is an optimization forum :smalltongue:. I definitely want to stay human and go spear/shield with warblade. Because I feel like they were real offensive with that style even though it was suppose to be defensive and they still kicked butt :smallbiggrin: lol. So I was thinking what can make a spear/shield warrior able to kick butt even though using sub-par style....and I thought of warblade.

I'm definitely thinking of getting the shield slam and charge feats, and the long reach feat looks interesting, i completely forgot about it :smallbiggrin:. Also that crystal of deflection for arrows should definitely come in handy. Thanks again Person_Man :smallbiggrin:.


If you shrink a 2 handed weapon by one size category, it becomes 1 handed, per the SRD. But it does not effect the reach of the weapon.

So a medium character using a "small" Longspear can use it 1 handed for 1d6 and still have 10' reach. Just call it something like a "Phalanx Spear" instead of a "Small Longspear".

Failing that, the shield-and-spear motif is crying for a homebrew Weapon Style feat. :smallconfused:

Yeah, I'm thinking hopefully my DM will let me wield the spear one handed. However, if not that sounds like an idea, but don't i get a -2 to hit because its not an appropriate size for my character size, correct?


Note there's a "Shield and Pike Style" feat that lets you use certain pole arms (including the Longspear) along with a Light Shield. That's about as close as you can get to the spear and shield concept. Consider using a Spiked light shield, and ask your DM if you can use the Dwarven Warpike as your polearm (it's not on the list, but it fits).

Now you can make a character that fights with the shield up close and trips enemies at long range. A basic build would be Lion/Wolf Totem Barbarian 2/Fighter 2/Crusader X. Use Shield Block and Shield Counter as maneuvers, and use Shield Charge and Shield Slam to attack enemies (Shield Charge goes amazingly with Improved Trip for obvious reasons). You should be able to debilitate most enemies easily.

JaronK

Yes sir, I have read that feat, its interesting, but it sucks that it gives you only a light shield to use. I would rather spend three levels in the "Phalanx Fighter" from APG if I had to choose between the two.

Also I don't want to go Crusader, even though it is meant for support and defense. I really want to go Warblade because of the awesome maneuvers that can be used with this style and still have enough power. Ex: Insightful Strike and Ruby Nightmare Blade. I think how the characters were in the movie when they fought was pure martial skill that I feel shows through Iron Heart and Diamond Mind.

Thanks,
Ranger557

P.S.: We are using PF with 3.5 material

[gbprime]

Yeah, I'm thinking hopefully my DM will let me wield the spear one handed. However, if not that sounds like an idea, but don't i get a -2 to hit because its not an appropriate size for my character size, correct?

Correct, you get a -2 to hit. Not perfect unless your DM is willing to waive or house rule something. In this case it's reasonable, but your mileage may vary.

[Keld Denar]

If you shrink a 2 handed weapon by one size category, it becomes 1 handed, per the SRD. But it does not effect the reach of the weapon.

So a medium character using a "small" Longspear can use it 1 handed for 1d6 and still have 10' reach. Just call it something like a "Phalanx Spear" instead of a "Small Longspear".

Failing that, the shield-and-spear motif is crying for a homebrew Weapon Style feat. :smallconfused:

Incorrect. A weapon must be appropriately sized. If its not, you forfeit the benefits of reach.


A wielder gains no reach from a reach weapon that is too small. No additional reach is granted by a reach weapon that is too big.

You'd also take a -2 penalty on all attacks with it. So, on top of NOT giving you what you want, it also doesn't work as well as a non-reach weapon sized for you.

[gbprime]

Incorrect. A weapon must be appropriately sized. If its not, you forfeit the benefits of reach.

Mmm. Missed that since it's not in the SRD. Curse you, common sense!

[Keld Denar]

It is, but its kinda hidden.


A typical Large character wielding a reach weapon of the appropriate size can attack a creature 15 or 20 feet away, but not adjacent creatures or creatures up to 10 feet away.

From this, you can infer a fair bit, but its really nice of the RC to come out plain and make the absolute statement. I know a lot of people don't like the RC, but this is one they got right.

[Gwendol]

I'm sorry if I missed this somewhere in the thread, but there are at least three kinds of spears only in the SRD: Shortspears, spears, and long spears. The spear is listed as 2H weapon, although historically it was used both with a shield or alone, and at least thrown it is 1H. Try reason with the DM on the handedness of the weapon, perhaps sacrifying a feat to be able to wield it both 1 and 2 handed? Otherwise use a lance, as PersonMan suggested.

[ranger557]

Interesting thing about the appropriate weapon size from the RC, did not know that as well. I have finally thought of fleshing out the concept some more and here is what I'm adding for feats and maneuvers. However, I might but two lists of feats because I'm still wondering if anybody can answer me about shield bashing with an animated shield? Can it be done or do I just wasted feats because now I have a floating shield instead it on my hand.

List one:
1 shield specialization, shield ward
3 improved shield bash
5 shield charge, improved intiative

Or

List two:
1 Improved shield bash, Longreach
3 shield charge
5 power attack, improved initiative

I was thinking that I shouldn't get agile shield fighter because of the fact I'm mostly focusing on Iron heart and Diamond mind, so I won't really be doing full attacks all the time. However, I think stormguard warrior would be good to invest to help my damage output, correct?

[Gwendol]

Just remembered that the trident is listed as a 1-handed weapon doing exactly the same damage as the spear (1d8 for a medium-sized weapon), but with a shorter thrown range. You can reflavor that to be a hoplite spear.

From the description of the animated shield it does not look like you can bash with it (when animated).

[Alefiend]

Maybe create a feat to allow longspear-and-shield as a combo? There was something like that in the Conan RPG.


Gunderland Pike-and-Shield Fighting

Prerequisites: (not significant, but they include +1 BAB)

Benefit:You may wield a large shield and pike simultaneously, without penalty to the use of the pike. The large shield only grants a +3 shield bonus to Parry Defence instead of the usual +4. The shield confers its full +4 shield bonus to your Dodge Defence when dodging ranged attacks.

Normal: A large shield can be strapped to the back or shoulder to allow for the use of a two-handed weapon but the bonus to Parry Defence is reduced to 0 and the shield bonus to Dodge Defence against ranged attacks is reduced to +2.

To clarify, the pike in question is a martial weapon with 15-20 feet of reach, intended for use in massed formations. Conan is a game where everything is bigger and bloodier, but this feat could be adapted to D&D 3.5 or PF without too much effort by scaling things down.

Somewhere in 3.5 there's a feat or maneuver for shortening your grip on a reach weapon to allow you to use it on adjacent targets, at the cost of giving up reach. That could (at GM's discretion) allow you to use a longspear one-handed with the shield, changing back to a two-handed grip when you want reach.

[bluthunda]

Comments are TL.DR just wanted to suggest a homebrew class from dandwiki there homebrews are usually pretty balances Spartans http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Spartan_(3.5e_Class)

[Alefiend]

Comments are TL.DR just wanted to suggest a homebrew class from dandwiki there homebrews are usually pretty balances Spartans http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Spartan_(3.5e_Class)

Wow. You're new here, aren't you? :smallamused:

[Shadowleaf]

Just remembered that the trident is listed as a 1-handed weapon doing exactly the same damage as the spear (1d8 for a medium-sized weapon), but with a shorter thrown range. You can reflavor that to be a hoplite spear.

From the description of the animated shield it does not look like you can bash with it (when animated).Sure you can. Animated just means it doesn't take up any hands.

No, it doesn't make much sense, but it's RAW legal.



Wow. You're new here, aren't you? :smallamused:
Link doesn't even work >_>.

[bluthunda]

I am new here thanks and the link had all the information there yesterday when I posted it

[ranger557]

Hi all, sorry for not replying to this, totally was busy and this slipped my mind. So here is what I thought would fit my offensive spear and shield character. I decided with a mix of fighter then warblade would be a good run (I was thinking of bloodstorm blade to throw his spear and get it back). But I think i don't really want to go that route with him flinging his spear in a wacky arc lol. Also my DM would let me use the "spear" in one hand because it makes sense. So here is my build for Marcus the Fearless! :smallbiggrin:

LET US WRITE HISTORY WITH BLOOD!!!(terrible line, but still fun:smalltongue:)



http://media.theiapolis.com/aA/cDCDCDC/d8/e4/h1KW/iGX4/r1/s1/t4/wHX/z5K/henry-cavill-as-theseus-in-immortals-2011.jpg

(Theoretical)Lvl 10 Fighter2/Warblade8

Feats:
1. Fearless, Improved Shield Bash, Longreach
2. Improved Initiative
3. Shield Charge
5. (open)?
7. Shield Slam, Ironheart Aura
9. Stormguard Warrior

Maneuvers:
1. Moment of Perfect Mind, Steel Wind, Leading the Attack, Punishing Stance
2. Moment of Perfect Mind, Steel Wind, Leading the Attack, Mountain Hammer Strike
3. Moment of Perfect Mind, Steel Wind, Leading the Attack, Mountain Hammer Strike, Battle Leader's Charge
4. Moment of Perfect Mind, Steel Wind, Leading the Attack Iron Heart Surge, Mountain Hammer Strike, Battle Leader's Charge, Leading the Charge
5. Moment of Perfect Mind, Steel Wind, Iron Heart Surge, Mountain Hammer Strike, Battle Leader's Charge, Insightful Strike
6. Moment of Perfect Mind, Steel Wind, Iron Heart Surge, Mountain Hammer Strike Bounding Assault, Battle Leader's Charge, Insightful Strike
7. Moment of Perfect Mind, Steel Wind, Iron Heart Surge, Bounding Assault, Battle Leader's Charge, Insightful Strike, Covering Strike
8. Moment of Perfect Mind, Steel Wind Iron Heart Focus, Iron Heart Surge, Bounding Assault, Battle Leader's Charge, Insightful Strike, Covering Strike

[klemdakherzbag]

Antagonize (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/antagonize) - for your open feat slot

[Red_Dog]

*I glanced and Cntrl-F'ed thru, but If I repeat someone, my apologies*

So... as a mind exercise I decided to go the other way of Fighter warblade Mix=>

*There was also going to be a Goliath build, but I spent a bit too much time polishing this one*
================================================== ===========>
Human ECL11
32 point buy in => Str16, Dex15, Con16, Int/Wiz10, Cha 8
OR => MAx STR, Dex 15, Int, Con Rest
Final Stats => Str16+4item, Dex17, Con16+4item, Int/Wiz10, Cha 8

Fighter+4/Warblade+1/Fighter+6

Feats(4+1H+6F)=>*In that order* Improved Shield Bash, Power Attack, Two-Weapon Fight, Improved Bulrush, Shield Charge, Improved Sunder, Imperious Command, Shock Trooper, Improved-Two Weapon, Combat Brute, Two-Weapon Rend

Maneuvers=> Concentration to Reflex & Will, w/e else, doesn't matter. Punishing Stance probably?

Skills=>Intimidate, w/e else. Dump Concentration on Warblade level, continue it at cross-class after.
Tricks=>Never Outnumbered

Stuff: Psychoactive Skin(+8armor, -6checks, +2max Dex) 6k, 1 +2 weapon(warning maybe?), +3/+1 Shield, 2 stat items, Crystal Mask of Dread, +1 Ring (if your DM let you use a spear in such fasion, than grab a pair of Steadfast Boots
================================================== ===========>

So... You can charge and trip, than Unload with momentum swing next turn with 5+1rend attacks. Rend SHOULD work with combat brute & shield(see no reason why would it not) and give you x3Powe attack bonus. You still are ok armored (+8Skin, +4Shield, +2 Dex, +1 Ring) and have pretty high con. Your maneuvers cover the gazing save weaknesses. Intimidate & Imperious Command gives a way to scare people *&%#less. Also if you want, take Drow Variant Fighter. Loose NOTHING you actually need, gain +2I.

Also keep in mind, that while you are not dungeon crusher, you still can use all special things that Shock Trooper & Combat brute gives you. Admitably with less funharm, but its a price for Flavor ^^

Also progression is amazingly smooth. No "patchy" things here. So you can take the build at any level. If this E6 though, it might need re-working. The only issue I have is that you can't swap one of the feats on Elusive Target ACF as damn thing is lvl6 and a lot of feats for fighter come after BAB+6, which is infuriating as hell to me as there is larger feats to play with on first couple of levels.

**The reason for not taking Agile shield fighter is => few points of Str is NOT worth loosing an extra 2(3) attacks(Improved-Two weapon, and Two-Weapon Rend, and later Greater Two-Weapon, in like a lvl), and sinking feats in Shield Spec.
*EDITED, stat change for extra 2 dex for an extra attack to get said Improved-Two weapon. Hmm I guess agile shield fighter is not TOO bad. Great shame that it doesn't scale...*

So thats just my mental Exercise ^^ I do like fighters and skill character, and yes yes I understand that ToB often steals ALL the thunder possible, but I try anyway for sake of fun ^^

[Red_Dog]

*Sry for double post, but apparently post didn't registered and didn't bump the thread*