baleful polymorph

[leegi0n]

Does remove curse counter Baleful Polymorph?

[FearlessGnome]

Counter? No. Dispel? Yes.

[leegi0n]

right. I meant dispel.

I knew it! We had an argument the other night about it. DM claimed that if you fail the fort save, that was it and I swore up and down that remove curse was the dispel. Because I couldn't find it written in any of the books we had, he wouldn't allow for the dispel. "It's permanent. You failed your fortitude save." I knew it!

I'm a cat now.

[NOhara24]

Your DM seems like one of those people that finds a bit of information that proves his point, and then leaves out the bit that would unravel his whole argument. He wasn't a rules lawyer in games past, was he?

EDIT: Why in blazes would he want to PERMANENTLY, turn one of his PCs into a cat?

[Qwertystop]

Isn't Baleful Polymorph covered by the general description of what Remove Curse removes?

[Krotchrot]

Ehrm...Just wondering, Baleful Polymorph isn't a Curse. Remove Curse implies it Removes Curses. How is it being used to Dispel Baleful Polymorph?

Along the same lines we have a character in our party that got BP into a toad last game and they hold the key(not a physical key mind you) to unlocking a pretty important item the adventure needs.

[leegi0n]

Isn't Baleful Polymorph covered by the general description of what Remove Curse removes?

Not sure. The only description I could find is:

"Remove curse instantaneously removes all curses on an object or a creature. Remove curse does not remove the curse from a cursed shield, weapon, or suit of armor, although the spell typically enables the creature afflicted with any such cursed item to remove and get rid of it. Certain special curses may not be countered by this spell or may be countered only by a caster of a certain level or higher.

Remove curse counters and dispels bestow curse"

because baleful polymorph isn't mentioned....well...



Your DM seems like one of those people that finds a bit of information that proves his point, and then leaves out the bit that would unravel his whole argument. He wasn't a rules lawyer in games past, was he?

EDIT: Why in blazes would he want to PERMANENTLY, turn one of his PCs into a cat?

The fact that he's a young DM answers most of that, I suppose. I was stomping through a relatively nasty fight with a drunken master and could tell he was getting frustrated. Maybe that's why...the 'retribution' card.

rolled a friggin' 1 on the fort save.

[Keneth]

I don't think Remove Curse can dispel Baleful Polymorph by RAW. But a dispel magic can.

[tyckspoon]

Remove Curse won't work, I think; there's a fairly specific subset of effects that are "curses" for its purposes (Bestow Curse, cursed items, and a few outside-Core spells that mostly don't last long enough to be worth lugging around Remove Curse.) The general spell you want for this kind of thing is Break Enchantment. Dispel Magic will also work if you have access to it at a reasonable caster level, although you'll probably want to have several copies of it to even out the RNG factor.

[FearlessGnome]

Having looked through the rules a bit, I have to modify my previous statement. BP is not a curse, and so can't be removed with Remove Curse. However, a simple Dispel Magic will do the trick. BP is Permanent, not Instantaneous. Dispel for profit.

[leegi0n]

I don't think Remove Curse can dispel Baleful Polymorph by RAW. But a dispel magic can.


what is this 'RAW' acronym?

[Allanimal]

what is this 'RAW' acronym?

Rules As Written

[FearlessGnome]

Rules As Written. Compare with Rules As Intended. You can find loopholes that allow you to things that were quite obviously not intended to be allowed.

Much like real life, is what I would say if I wasn't in love with the blessed egalitarian legal system.

[Zeta Kai]

If he keeps you as a cat for more than 2 sessions, with not indication that reprieve is likely or planned for, then I would quit his game. BP is not a long-term fair-play DM tool, for the same basic reason that MKD isn't: it hoses your character, & there isn't much that you can do about it.

[Zeborazor]

A useful thread seeing as my up coming game will include someone who can BP. Although I have to say if you critically failed your fort, we might have made it undispel-able(at our table anyway). Of course there would be ways to fix it, just none that easy :p

[leegi0n]

If he keeps you as a cat for more than 2 sessions, with not indication that reprieve is likely or planned for, then I would quit his game. BP is not a long-term fair-play DM tool, for the same basic reason that MKD isn't: it hoses your character, & there isn't much that you can do about it.


The spell descriptor indicates permanent. At what point is there 'no turning back?"

[FearlessGnome]

When a spell has "Instant" duration, the magic works its... magic... and then goes away, but what it did remains done. When a Fireball ends, the ball of fire goes away, but people are still hurt, etc. But BP is "Permanent", which means that the spell hangs around forever. So someone using Detect Magic on you would see a moderate Transmutation effect hanging over you until the spell is removed or you die.

There are Instantaneous effects like True Mind Swap, or some such name, that permanently put you in another body, but that's not "Permanent", because the True Mind Swap ends when you switch to the new body. Thus, can't be dispelled once it's been done.

[Douglas]

Spell duration of "Permanent" means two things:
1) If left to itself, it lasts forever.
2) Unless something specifically states otherwise, it can be dispelled by Dispel Magic and similar spells as easily as anything else. Also, it shows up on Detect Magic. Both of these are because the magic of the spell sticks around and is actively maintaining the effect.

Spell duration of "Instantaneous" means two things, one of which is almost the same and the other is the opposite:
1) Any effect it has will last until something else changes it. Damage persists until healed, stone conjured from nowhere stays, an object transformed into another keeps its new form, etc.
2) Dispel Magic has no effect whatsoever because the magic is already gone. Detect Magic may find a lingering aura if you use it soon enough, but once that fades Detect Magic reveals nothing.

[leegi0n]

Thank you for the info. Armed as such, I proceed forth...

[Telonius]

Thank you for the info. Armed as such, I proceed forth...

Be sure your comrades bring up this episode with random NPCs whenever possible.

"Leegion there was turned into a cat!"
"... I got better."

[leegi0n]

Be sure your comrades bring up this episode with random NPCs whenever possible.

"Leegion there was turned into a cat!"
"... I got better."



LOL. for sure. I'm tempted to do some metagaming to get myself dispelled.
...though, I'd like to keep the 9 lives!

[Skaven]

Your DM seems like one of those people that finds a bit of information that proves his point, and then leaves out the bit that would unravel his whole argument.

I once had an argument with an old DM who swore my Centaur couldn't wear horseshoes after we found some special ones that granted some kind of endurance feat or ability, I forget.

"It says horseshoes, you're not a horse and since the text says horse you can't wear them since it says horse."

[Zeborazor]

I once had an argument with an old DM who swore my Centaur couldn't wear horseshoes after we found some special ones that granted some kind of endurance feat or ability, I forget.

"It says horseshoes, you're not a horse and since the text says horse you can't wear them since it says horse."

Your brain didn't just...explode?

[Cruiser1]

I once had an argument with an old DM who swore my Centaur couldn't wear horseshoes after we found some special ones that granted some kind of endurance feat or ability, I forget.
Hey, in optimized games even human characters can use magic horseshoes! Just make a DC 25 Use Magic Device (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/useMagicDevice.htm) check to emulate the race "horse". :smallbiggrin:

[Venger]

Your DM seems like one of those people that finds a bit of information that proves his point, and then leaves out the bit that would unravel his whole argument. He wasn't a rules lawyer in games past, was he?

EDIT: Why in blazes would he want to PERMANENTLY, turn one of his PCs into a cat?

Agreed.

Because he's a furry.

Break enchantment works for "transmutations" which BP is,

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/breakEnchantment.htm

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/balefulPolymorph.htm

but dispel magic works on anything with a permanent duration

after 24 hours, make a will save (since you rolled bad and your DM's a cheater, pump that will save up as much as possible) to avoid turning into a cat mentally. make it and you're fine, fail it and you're a cat (until someone uses break enchantment or dispel magic)

if your DM doesn't bring this up (and lets you stay with your normal intelligence, abilities, etc.) don't bother mentioning it, since he will obviously just fudge the DC as being too high for you to make and say "lolnope ur a kitteh now"

since you asked, I figure you have your normal personality for the time being.

dispel magic isn't too hard to come by. if you're a sufficient level to be going up against foes with BP, then your cleric should have dispel magic unlocked or your wizard should have it in his book. little to no metagaming should be necessary, but whatever is is totally justified.

if your DM doesn't let you do this, you should probably examine the wisdom of remaining in this game.

[Piggy Knowles]

OK, now the next step is to make a character focused on using Baleful Polymorph with a caster level of 41 so it can't be broken with Dispel Magic, Break Enchantment, or Greater Dispel Magic, and become a zookeeper.

[Qwertystop]

OK, now the next step is to make a character focused on using Baleful Polymorph with a caster level of 41 so it can't be broken with Dispel Magic, Break Enchantment, or Greater Dispel Magic, and become a zookeeper.

Why CL 41?

[FearlessGnome]

OK, now the next step is to make a character focused on using Baleful Polymorph with a caster level of 41 so it can't be broken with Dispel Magic, Break Enchantment, or Greater Dispel Magic, and become a zookeeper.Plus, be a Druid and pick up the feat Initiate of Nature, so you can rebuke your pets.

[Venger]

Why CL 41?

that's just an arbitrarily high number. he means just a really high caster level

[Urpriest]

Why CL 41?

CL cap on Dispel Magic.

[Douglas]

CL cap on Dispel Magic.
CL 30 is already sufficient to exceed Greater Dispel Magic's cap. Higher than that is only needed if you're worried about spells with higher caps (there are a few that go up to +25) or special bonuses to dispelling.

[Weezer]

CL cap on Dispel Magic.

That's why god (or whoever wrote the Dragonlance Campaign Setting) invented Reserves of Strength.

[FearlessGnome]

That's why god (or whoever wrote the Dragonlance Campaign Setting) invented Reserves of Strength.Aah, good ol' Reserves. Most games will use the quite reasonable reading of [Max caster level increases by 3], however.

[Qwertystop]

That's why god (or whoever wrote the Dragonlance Campaign Setting) invented Reserves of Strength.

What's that do?

[lianightdemon]

Since your GM likes polymorphing you play a psion next so you can still use all your stuff.

[FearlessGnome]

It lets you increase the caster level of a spell by 1-3, and then be immediately stunned for that many rounds (Or take damage, if you are immune to stunning). It also says that, 'using this feat, you can exceed the normal maximum caster level of the spell'. Now, as written, it doesn't say that you can only exceed it with the extra caster levels gained using this feat. So... If you use the feat exactly as written, you can:
1: Gain immunity to stunning.
2: Have more than one 1d6 hp.
3: Have high caster level.
4: Cast spell, adding 1CL (or 3, if you don't mind taking 5d6 damage)
5: Ignore caster level cap.

Outside of battle, you can just eat the three round stun and get three free caster levels for spells like Mage Armor, Rope Trick, etc, so the feat is great even if you are not using it to defecate on caster level caps.

If you are, well... How about a nice Shapechange with no 25HD cap on creatures you can turn into?

[Akisa]

Rules As Written. Compare with Rules As Intended. You can find loopholes that allow you to things that were quite obviously not intended to be allowed.

Much like real life, is what I would say if I wasn't in love with the blessed egalitarian legal system.

There is also RAP, or Rules As Played. Like how both RAI and RAW state that coins weigh 1/50 pounds, but how many games are played where people seem to forget that.

[Piggy Knowles]

EDIT: Nevermind, ignore me. douglas is right - I meant CL 30, so that the DC for the dispel check is 41.

[Steward]

If he keeps you as a cat for more than 2 sessions, with not indication that reprieve is likely or planned for, then I would quit his game. BP is not a long-term fair-play DM tool, for the same basic reason that MKD isn't: it hoses your character, & there isn't much that you can do about it.

Okay, I have to know -- what is MKD? Is it a spell?

[FearlessGnome]

Okay, I have to know -- what is MKD? Is it a spell?

Mordenkainen's Disjunction.

Dispels all spells within a small radius automatically, including buffs. Level nine spell.

Oh yeah, and every magic item you have when you are hit has to make a save or be permanently destroyed.

WBL? "Oops".

[Steward]

Mordenkainen's Disjunction.

Dispels all spells within a small radius automatically, including buffs. Level nine spell.

Oh yeah, and every magic item you have when you are hit has to make a save or be permanently destroyed.

WBL? "Oops".

What? What kind of idiotic, broken mess of a splatbook is that from?

[Akisa]

What? What kind of idiotic, broken mess of a splatbook is that from?

The Core book, aka Player's Handbook.

[FearlessGnome]

What? What kind of idiotic, broken mess of a splatbook is that from?Why, the Player's Handbook of course.

It's not famous because players realise that they would be losing out on a lot of loot if they used it, and DMs realise that hitting one PC with it is going to put them way the heck back in wealth compared to the rest of the party.

A reasonably common houserule amongst groups who use the spell is to have it just destroy spells, leaving items alone (Or suppressing them temporarily)

[Steward]

The Core book, aka Player's Handbook.

Wow. That's just incredible. Well, at least it's a 9th level spell.

I just looked it up. It's a standard action, with no XP cost, material component or arcane focus required.

[agentnone]

Wow. That's just incredible. Well, at least it's a 9th level spell.

I just looked it up. It's a standard action, with no XP cost, material component or arcane focus required.

In Pathfinder, it's called Mage's Disjunction and it it dispells all currently working magic effects and all magic items get a save to resist being shut off for a set duration. Most people house-ruled its effects in 3.5 so as to not permanently destroy their own stuff, as well as potential loot of enemies, like FearlessGnome said. I guess Paizo adapted this rule into their own version of the spell. Nothing's worse than gearing up for the BBEG battle at the end of the campaign only to have your stuff get disenchanted because of the spell's RAW.

Also, I don't remember if it states it in the description, but IIRC the 2nd Ed version of the spell also wiped the spells from a caster's memory if they failed a save.

[Qwertystop]

And if the spell hits an Artifact, then the caster has to make a save or lose all spellcasting abilities forever.

Yeah...

[FearlessGnome]

And if the spell hits an Artifact, then the caster has to make a save or lose all spellcasting abilities forever.

Yeah...Only if the Disjunction rolls "lucky" enough to destroy the artifact, which isn't usually the case. And I thought you had to be within a certain small radius of the artifact to risk losing your spellcasting?

Still, yes. A DM vs Players showdown could easily see a Baddie carrying lots of very weak atrifacts (Hey, they're the DM, I'm sure they could find some). Wait for player to cast Disjunction, and - voila, instant commoner with illusions of grandeur.

[Steward]

Also, I don't remember if it states it in the description, but IIRC the 2nd Ed version of the spell also wiped the spells from a caster's memory if they failed a save.

That's awesome.

Does it also come over to your house and relieve itself on your kitchen table too?

(Seriously, I love this game, but sometimes I hear stuff that makes me think that the people who made it never played it.)

[FearlessGnome]

That's awesome.

Does it also come over to your house and relieve itself on your kitchen table too? Ah, laughter. It can be good sometimes.

[Zherog]

That's awesome.

Does it also come over to your house and relieve itself on your kitchen table too?

Yep. It'll also eat all your cookies and kick your dog.

[Venger]

it will then eat all your dice and fart on your pillow

[MesiDoomstalker]

...and use your toothbrush to clean your toilet...

[FearlessGnome]

...and use your toothbrush to clean your toilet...Yes... "Clean"... That's what it'll do...

[Telonius]

That's awesome.

Does it also come over to your house and relieve itself on your kitchen table too?

(Seriously, I love this game, but sometimes I hear stuff that makes me think that the people who made it never played it.)

Was Disjunction available back in 1st ed? It's always seemed Gygaxian to me. I find it totally believable that Gary would have written in a trapped statue that would zap you with a disjunction unless you hopped on one leg reciting the elven alphabet backwards while juggling (or something equally silly). The DM had a much more adversarial relationship with the players back in those days, and high lethality was expected. (See Tycho over at Penny Arcade's latest story arc for an example).

[leegi0n]

Why, the Player's Handbook of course.

It's not famous because players realise that they would be losing out on a lot of loot if they used it, and DMs realise that hitting one PC with it is going to put them way the heck back in wealth compared to the rest of the party.


it's a great spell if you want to see a high level PC get pissed, real quick.

[Steward]

it's a great spell if you want to see a high level PC get pissed, real quick.

Honestly, from a DM perspective, you might as well have the players roll a 1d6 and rip up their character sheets if they get a single digit number. (Seriously, one standard action, no XP cost, and cleanse the field of all magic.)