Sylvre Phire
2011-12-01, 01:21 PM
In my Pathfinder home game, I intend to use an epic level character as an occasional guide to the PCs, more like Gandalf than the D&D cartoon's Dungeon Master character. At any rate, because I want the character to be more like Gandalf (a wizard able to swing a sword with the best of them), I'm building him as a Sor20/Mag20.
Let me get a few bits of contention out of the way at this point:
I know epic levels have a bad rap; that being said, the character isn't advancing beyond level 20 in either class, bringing him to a character level of 40.
Although the character is a GMPC, I have run the idea past my players, and they're fine with it.
The character is not a "look at my kewl powers" idea; he's meant to be a guide, keep the PCs from dying needlessly, etc.; just as Gandalf did for Bilbo and the dwarves in "The Hobbit" and the Fellowship in the Ring trilogy.
I'm not looking for a debate on the evils of Mary Sues and GMPCs or how someone got burned by a bad GM on a power trip. I'm just looking for feedback on my interpretation of the rules here.
That being said, I have some questions with interpretation of the epic level rules in the SRD. I am referencing the rules as presented here (http://dndsrd.net/epicLevels.html), but I will include quotes here with my own interpretation. Right now I just need some insight from more experienced D&D 3.x and Pathfinder players and GMs.
EPIC LEVEL BASICS
Epic characters-those whose character level is 21st or higher-are handled slightly differently from nonepic characters. While epic characters continue to receive most of the benefits of gaining levels, some benefits are replaced by alternative gains. A class can be advanced beyond 20th level. A ten-level prestige class can progress beyond 10th level, but only if the character level is already 20th or higher. A class with fewer than ten levels cannot progress beyond the maximum for that class, regardless of character level.
Okay, at this point we've established the difference between class and character levels. This character is level 40, taking the full 20-level run in Sorcerer and Magus each.
Epic Save Bonus: A character’s base save bonus does not increase after character level reaches 20th. However, the character does receive a cumulative +1 epic bonus on all saving throws at every even-numbered level beyond 20th, as shown on Table: Epic Save and Epic Attack Bonuses. Any time a feat, prestige class, or other rule refers to your base save bonus, use the sum of your base save bonus and epic save bonus..
Okay, so save bonuses do not advance per the class tables once the character reaches character level 20, which (in the case of a multiclassed character) is different from the class level. That means he would advance per the epic level table.
Epic Attack Bonus: Similarly, the character’s base attack bonus does not increase after character level reaches 20th. However, the character does receive a cumulative +1 epic bonus on all attacks at every odd-numbered level beyond 20th, as shown on Table: Epic Save and Epic Attack Bonuses. Any time a feat, prestige class, or other rule refers to your base attack bonus (except for gaining additional attacks), use the sum of your base attack bonus and epic attack bonus.
As above, once the character level gets above 20, the character uses the epic level table for BAB and save bonus advancement. Right?
Class Skill Max Ranks: The maximum number of ranks a character can have in a class skill is equal to his or her character level +3.
Cross-Class Skill Max Ranks: For cross-class skills, the maximum number of ranks is one-half the maximum for a class skill.
Okay, here's where D&D 3.x differs from Pathfinder. As I understand it, D&D 3.x characters had a boatload and a half of skills, but Pathfinder gives them fewer and lets them be more proficient earlier in their careers.
Specifically, Pathfinder says: (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/usingSkills.html)
You can never have more ranks in a skill than your total number of Hit Dice.
This ends the distinction between class and cross-class skills (beyond the +3 proficiency bonus). Am I right in assuming this holds through epic levels then?
Feats: Every character gains one feat (which may be an epic or nonepic feat at the player’s choice) at every level divisible by three. These feats are in addition to any bonus feats granted in the class descriptions.
No problems there...
Ability Increases: Upon gaining any level divisible by four, a character increases one of his or her ability scores by 1 point. The player chooses which ability score to improve. For multiclass characters, feats and ability increases are gained according to character level, not class level.
No problems here either...
CLASS FEATURES
Many, but not all, class features continue to accumulate after 20th level. The following guidelines describe how the epic class progressions.
A character continues to gain Hit Dice and skill points as normal beyond 20th level.
Okey-dokey...
Generally, any class feature that uses class level as part of a mathematical formula continues to increase using the character’s class level in the formula. Any prestige class feature that calculates a save DC using the class level should add only half the character’s class levels above 10th.
Okay, no problems here...
For spellcasters, caster level continues to increase after 20th level. However, spells per day don’t increase after 20th level. The only way to gain additional spells per day (other than the bonus spells gained from a high ability score) is to select the Improved Spell Capacity epic feat.
No problems here as the character is not advancing to level 21 in either class, only in character level...
The powers of familiars, special mounts, and fiendish servants continue to increase as their masters gain levels.
Okay on this front as well...
Any class features that increase or accumulate as part of a repeated pattern also continues to increase or accumulate after 20th level at the same rate. An exception to this rule is any bonus feat granted as a class feature. If a character gets bonus feats as part of a class feature, these do not increase with epic levels. Instead, these classes get bonus feats at a different rate (described in each epic class description).
Again, no problems here he's not going above level 20 in either Sorcerer or Magus...
In addition to the class features retained from nonepic levels, each class gains a bonus feat every two, three, four, or five levels after 20th. This augments each class’s progression of class features, because not all classes otherwise improve class features after 20th level. A character must select these feats from the list of bonus feats for that class. These bonus feats are in addition to the feat that every character gets every three levels. The character isn’t limited to selecting from the class list when selecting these feats.
No problems here either...
Characters don’t gain any new class features, because there aren’t any new class features described for these levels. Class features with a progression that slows or stops before 20th level and features that have a limited list of options do not improve as a character gains epic levels. Likewise, class features that are gained only at a single level do not improve.
Here, I have a question. The character is not advancing in class levels beyond 20 in each, but they are advancing in character level beyond level 20. I'm still on the right track by applying the difference between class and character levels here? In this case the character would get all their normal class features, right?
Likewise, class features that are gained only at a single level do not improve.
Okay...
I'll follow up with the actual build later for critique and help. I just need to know right now whether or not I'm on the right track with my interpretation of the epic-level rules...
Pax et bonum,
Dale
Let me get a few bits of contention out of the way at this point:
I know epic levels have a bad rap; that being said, the character isn't advancing beyond level 20 in either class, bringing him to a character level of 40.
Although the character is a GMPC, I have run the idea past my players, and they're fine with it.
The character is not a "look at my kewl powers" idea; he's meant to be a guide, keep the PCs from dying needlessly, etc.; just as Gandalf did for Bilbo and the dwarves in "The Hobbit" and the Fellowship in the Ring trilogy.
I'm not looking for a debate on the evils of Mary Sues and GMPCs or how someone got burned by a bad GM on a power trip. I'm just looking for feedback on my interpretation of the rules here.
That being said, I have some questions with interpretation of the epic level rules in the SRD. I am referencing the rules as presented here (http://dndsrd.net/epicLevels.html), but I will include quotes here with my own interpretation. Right now I just need some insight from more experienced D&D 3.x and Pathfinder players and GMs.
EPIC LEVEL BASICS
Epic characters-those whose character level is 21st or higher-are handled slightly differently from nonepic characters. While epic characters continue to receive most of the benefits of gaining levels, some benefits are replaced by alternative gains. A class can be advanced beyond 20th level. A ten-level prestige class can progress beyond 10th level, but only if the character level is already 20th or higher. A class with fewer than ten levels cannot progress beyond the maximum for that class, regardless of character level.
Okay, at this point we've established the difference between class and character levels. This character is level 40, taking the full 20-level run in Sorcerer and Magus each.
Epic Save Bonus: A character’s base save bonus does not increase after character level reaches 20th. However, the character does receive a cumulative +1 epic bonus on all saving throws at every even-numbered level beyond 20th, as shown on Table: Epic Save and Epic Attack Bonuses. Any time a feat, prestige class, or other rule refers to your base save bonus, use the sum of your base save bonus and epic save bonus..
Okay, so save bonuses do not advance per the class tables once the character reaches character level 20, which (in the case of a multiclassed character) is different from the class level. That means he would advance per the epic level table.
Epic Attack Bonus: Similarly, the character’s base attack bonus does not increase after character level reaches 20th. However, the character does receive a cumulative +1 epic bonus on all attacks at every odd-numbered level beyond 20th, as shown on Table: Epic Save and Epic Attack Bonuses. Any time a feat, prestige class, or other rule refers to your base attack bonus (except for gaining additional attacks), use the sum of your base attack bonus and epic attack bonus.
As above, once the character level gets above 20, the character uses the epic level table for BAB and save bonus advancement. Right?
Class Skill Max Ranks: The maximum number of ranks a character can have in a class skill is equal to his or her character level +3.
Cross-Class Skill Max Ranks: For cross-class skills, the maximum number of ranks is one-half the maximum for a class skill.
Okay, here's where D&D 3.x differs from Pathfinder. As I understand it, D&D 3.x characters had a boatload and a half of skills, but Pathfinder gives them fewer and lets them be more proficient earlier in their careers.
Specifically, Pathfinder says: (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/usingSkills.html)
You can never have more ranks in a skill than your total number of Hit Dice.
This ends the distinction between class and cross-class skills (beyond the +3 proficiency bonus). Am I right in assuming this holds through epic levels then?
Feats: Every character gains one feat (which may be an epic or nonepic feat at the player’s choice) at every level divisible by three. These feats are in addition to any bonus feats granted in the class descriptions.
No problems there...
Ability Increases: Upon gaining any level divisible by four, a character increases one of his or her ability scores by 1 point. The player chooses which ability score to improve. For multiclass characters, feats and ability increases are gained according to character level, not class level.
No problems here either...
CLASS FEATURES
Many, but not all, class features continue to accumulate after 20th level. The following guidelines describe how the epic class progressions.
A character continues to gain Hit Dice and skill points as normal beyond 20th level.
Okey-dokey...
Generally, any class feature that uses class level as part of a mathematical formula continues to increase using the character’s class level in the formula. Any prestige class feature that calculates a save DC using the class level should add only half the character’s class levels above 10th.
Okay, no problems here...
For spellcasters, caster level continues to increase after 20th level. However, spells per day don’t increase after 20th level. The only way to gain additional spells per day (other than the bonus spells gained from a high ability score) is to select the Improved Spell Capacity epic feat.
No problems here as the character is not advancing to level 21 in either class, only in character level...
The powers of familiars, special mounts, and fiendish servants continue to increase as their masters gain levels.
Okay on this front as well...
Any class features that increase or accumulate as part of a repeated pattern also continues to increase or accumulate after 20th level at the same rate. An exception to this rule is any bonus feat granted as a class feature. If a character gets bonus feats as part of a class feature, these do not increase with epic levels. Instead, these classes get bonus feats at a different rate (described in each epic class description).
Again, no problems here he's not going above level 20 in either Sorcerer or Magus...
In addition to the class features retained from nonepic levels, each class gains a bonus feat every two, three, four, or five levels after 20th. This augments each class’s progression of class features, because not all classes otherwise improve class features after 20th level. A character must select these feats from the list of bonus feats for that class. These bonus feats are in addition to the feat that every character gets every three levels. The character isn’t limited to selecting from the class list when selecting these feats.
No problems here either...
Characters don’t gain any new class features, because there aren’t any new class features described for these levels. Class features with a progression that slows or stops before 20th level and features that have a limited list of options do not improve as a character gains epic levels. Likewise, class features that are gained only at a single level do not improve.
Here, I have a question. The character is not advancing in class levels beyond 20 in each, but they are advancing in character level beyond level 20. I'm still on the right track by applying the difference between class and character levels here? In this case the character would get all their normal class features, right?
Likewise, class features that are gained only at a single level do not improve.
Okay...
I'll follow up with the actual build later for critique and help. I just need to know right now whether or not I'm on the right track with my interpretation of the epic-level rules...
Pax et bonum,
Dale