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View Full Version : Orb of Yeah, This is What an Eighth Level Spell Looks Like (3.5 Spell, PEACH)



NeoSeraphi
2011-12-01, 03:29 PM
Energy Volley
Evocation [Fire] [Cold] [Acid] [Electricity]
Level Sorc/Wiz 8, Warmage 8
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 round
Duration: Instantaneous, See Text
Range: Medium
Target: Up to four creatures
Saving Throw: See Text
SR: Yes

As you complete your spell, you raise your hand above your head, and four brightly colored orbs spring into existence. The orbs swirl around each other for a moment, before scattering, flying in different directions to strike down all your foes at once

When you cast this spell, you create an orb of fire, orb of cold, orb of electricity, and orb of acid. Each of these functions exactly as the spell, except their save DC is based on this spell's DC, they are of the evocation school and allow SR, they cannot penetrate an anti-magic field, and they all have a damage cap of 20d6 instead of 15d6.

You make a ranged touch attack at up to four different enemies. You may choose which orb affects which enemy, or send multiple orbs at a single or two or three targets. (Four orbs at one, or two orbs at two, or three orbs at one and one orb at the other, etc)

If you choose to hold an orb(s) back, they remain floating over your head for up to one round per four caster levels (max 5 rounds at 20th CL). As a standard action, you may fire a single orb at a target within range.

Grod_The_Giant
2011-12-01, 03:33 PM
Two things I find rather strange:

Why can't you target all four spheres at the same creature? Balance? At 20th level, that's an average of only 240 damage, and things will almost certainly resist or be immune to one or more of those energy types.
Why can't it be emulated by Shades?

NeoSeraphi
2011-12-01, 03:37 PM
Two things I find rather strange:

Why can't you target all four spheres at the same creature? Balance? At 20th level, that's an average of only 240 damage, and things will almost certainly resist or be immune to one or more of those energy types.

No, it's fluff. When I see someone casting this spell, I see the orbs spinning above and firing in all different directions, like the caster can only aim them slightly, he can't fully control them, and the force of the elements repels them in different directions. Like the spell is casting itself, not the caster.

Edit: Also, when we look at balance, we're looking at 4 different save-or-sucks, involving all 3 saves, and Energy Substitution is a +0 metamagic feat that turns all four orbs into one type of damage.



Why can't it be emulated by Shades?


Because I hate the shadow line, and I refuse to have it be part of my homebrewing balance process. :smallbiggrin:

arguskos
2011-12-01, 04:01 PM
Because I hate the shadow line, and I refuse to have it be part of my homebrewing balance process. :smallbiggrin:
Best reasoning ever (also, fully agreed; I expunge the line in my games, on the basis of "man, **** shades").

EDIT: Spell seems fine. I don't see any real issue at a glance. Not sure I'd ever use it personally (mostly because meta'd orbs still probably outrun this thing without some serious work and because maw of chaos is my go-to at these levels).

NeoSeraphi
2011-12-01, 04:09 PM
Best reasoning ever (also, fully agreed; I expunge the line in my games, on the basis of "man, **** shades").

EDIT: Spell seems fine. I don't see any real issue at a glance. Not sure I'd ever use it personally (mostly because meta'd orbs still probably outrun this thing without some serious work and because maw of chaos is my go-to at these levels).

Meta'd orbs would still outrun this thing, but that's only if you're optimizing blasting. This is a higher level alternative for save-or-dies for the casual caster, or the summoner/crowd control/enchanter/diviner/abjurer/someone else who isn't blasting.

You know, a spell for someone who didn't waste all their feats on metamagic, but still wants to deal damage.

Just to Browse
2011-12-01, 04:36 PM
You definitely sucked me in with the title.

I'd prefer not to have a thematic restriction that prohibits the orbs from all flying at one dude, 'cause it makes the spell subpar against BBEG fights (you don't want to waste the orbs on weak minions, but it takes 4 turns to use the spell to its fullest, when you could instead be casting temporal stasis four times... or something).

Also, making the spell unreplicatable by shades kinda puts me off. Shades is obnoxious regardless of this spell, and people who raise the complaint that this is broken because of shades have no validity. I'd just cut that text and let people who get excited about shadow magic have their stiffie. Of course, that's just me, so I can just cut it out when I print out the spell and stuff it in my PHB.

NeoSeraphi
2011-12-01, 04:41 PM
You definitely sucked me in with the title.

I tend to do that. Other titles of my homebrew include:
Succumb to the Voices in Your Head!
You Shall Fear The Wrath of God!
This is the Power of Hell!
Don't Worry Bro, I'll Back You Up



I'd prefer not to have a thematic restriction that prohibits the orbs from all flying at one dude, 'cause it makes the spell subpar against BBEG fights (you don't want to waste the orbs on weak minions, but it takes 4 turns to use the spell to its fullest, when you could instead be casting temporal stasis four times... or something).

Also, making the spell unreplicatable by shades kinda puts me off. Shades is obnoxious regardless of this spell, and people who raise the complaint that this is broken because of shades have no validity. I'd just cut that text and let people who get excited about shadow magic have their stiffie. Of course, that's just me, so I can just cut it out when I print out the spell and stuff it in my PHB.

Well alright. Since two out of three posters have complained about both of these, I'll go ahead and remove them.

SamBurke
2011-12-01, 04:56 PM
My question is... WHY? WHY DO YOU HATE EVOCATION SO!?!?

In all seriousness, this seems to be given one of the most obviously powerful specialists in the game an amazing damage spell (fighters and barbarians have to work their whole build to do that sort of damage, and you can just have it floating above your head?).

So the question still is, why is this needed?

NeoSeraphi
2011-12-01, 04:59 PM
My question is... WHY? WHY DO YOU HATE EVOCATION SO!?!?


Excuse me, sir, but if you look at this thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=215397) you will see that I am a huge supporter of evocation reform!



In all seriousness, this seems to be given one of the most obviously powerful specialists in the game an amazing damage spell (fighters and barbarians have to work their whole build to do that sort of damage, and you can just have it floating above your head?).

So the question still is, why is this needed?

Because I saw this video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sLTpJJAraG8&list=FLjv6ZRuWsZGaMzVimD3sqrQ&index=2&feature=plpp_video)

SamBurke
2011-12-01, 05:03 PM
Excuse me, sir, but if you look at this thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=215397) you will see that I am a huge supporter of evocation reform!


I knew you were, Seraph. I stalk you end up looking at most of your threads because of the afore-mentioned titles. That's why I wondered.

NeoSeraphi
2011-12-01, 05:06 PM
Well, it's WotC's screwed-up logic that made the orbs conjuration to begin with. Just because I think they should be SR: Yes and in evocation doesn't mean I can just throw that fix onto everything I make that involves them.

Siosilvar
2011-12-01, 05:30 PM
Also, when we look at balance, we're looking at 4 different save-or-sucks, involving all 3 saves, and Energy Substitution is a +0 metamagic feat that turns all four orbs into one type of damage.

Actually, all of the saves against the Orb spells are Fortitude saves.

MesiDoomstalker
2011-12-01, 07:19 PM
Actually, all of the saves against the Orb spells are Fortitude saves.

I believe Seraphi was saying that its 3 different effects, Save-or-Suck effects to be percise, hitting a single target. As in, you have 3 chances to screw over the opponent with one spell ontop of dealing damage. Not so much that it target 3 different saves. Though a spell that does target 3 different saves would be interesting.

DeAnno
2011-12-01, 07:42 PM
Arcane Thesis Energy Volley + Incantatrix 10 + Practical Maximize + Practical Twin = TwinMaxiPowered Energy Volley, the 9th level spell, for an estimated total of (20*6 + 20*3.5/2)*4*2 = 1240 damage at a net feat investment of four (counting Iron Will). Not really that much more ridiculous than you could get already, but definitely much more stylish, and the ability to split it among four targets is very convenient. It's a shame True Strike doesn't really work though :smallwink:

As for its intended purpose, 280 damage is certainly adequate DD in plenty of circumstances. The casting time of one round may not be as negative a balance factor as you would think though, since that makes it especially accessible for a Wizard looking to use Arcane Spellsurge. Ironically it really punishes Warmages the most, since they're the only ones without any really easy options for speeding it up.

Gaiyamato
2011-12-01, 08:12 PM
Arcane Thesis Energy Volley + Incantatrix 10 + Practical Maximize + Practical Twin = TwinMaxiPowered Energy Volley, the 9th level spell, for an estimated total of (20*6 + 20*3.5/2)*4*2 = 1240 damage at a net feat investment of four (counting Iron Will). Not really that much more ridiculous than you could get already, but definitely much more stylish, and the ability to split it among four targets is very convenient. It's a shame True Strike doesn't really work though :smallwink:

This was my first thought.
But then I saw that it can be held for a few rounds after casting.

So then I thought, Quickened Spell. You could spend two rounds pumping them out and walk into an encounter with 32+ of these ready all on the first round.

Combine it with Snow casting and Cold Focus etc. and they all become Cold damage that can ignore Cold immunity.

Use Divine Metamagic or something similar for true blasting shenanigans.

Epic level you could throw Intensify Spell and Enhance Spell plus Improved Metamagic for truly stupid levels of damage. Even other epic characters could be totally wasted in a single round with the right build.

But I do love the spell thematics wise. I must say. Very nice.
Compared to other spells it is actually pretty balanced. lol.

Yitzi
2011-12-01, 09:08 PM
Well, it's WotC's screwed-up logic that made the orbs conjuration to begin with. Just because I think they should be SR: Yes and in evocation doesn't mean I can just throw that fix onto everything I make that involves them.

Yes, but at least when you're making your own blasty spells you can base them off evocation spells (this would of course mean using sonic or force (or both) rather than acid) rather than conjuration spells.

Instead of the four you mentioned, make it a meld of magic missile (maximum ten missiles), fireball (max 20d6), lightning bolt (max 20d6), shout (max scaling damage is 20d6), and Cone of Cold (max 20d6).

jiriku
2011-12-02, 12:04 AM
Since you've removed the multi-orb, single-target restriction, it's no longer necessary to state "even if that target was already struck by another one of your orbs from this spell." Me, I'd add SR: Yes and Evocation precisely because WoTC's error in creating imbalanced spells is no reason to perpetuate the error with imbalanced homebrew. Call it Conjuration (creation)/Evocation if you want to honor the spell's roots. Also, this spell needs the ]acid], [cold], [electricity], and [fire] descriptors.

NeoSeraphi
2011-12-02, 12:13 AM
Since you've removed the multi-orb, single-target restriction, it's no longer necessary to state "even if that target was already struck by another one of your orbs from this spell." Me, I'd add SR: Yes and Evocation precisely because WoTC's error in creating imbalanced spells is no reason to perpetuate the error with imbalanced homebrew. Call it Conjuration (creation)/Evocation if you want to honor the spell's roots. Also, this spell needs the ]acid], [cold], [electricity], and [fire] descriptors.

Alright, fair enough.


Instead of the four you mentioned, make it a meld of magic missile (maximum ten missiles), fireball (max 20d6), lightning bolt (max 20d6), shout (max scaling damage is 20d6), and Cone of Cold (max 20d6).

Um, no. The entire reason for making this spell was because of how it looked: four orbs floating above the caster's head and bursting out like the Dragonballs after someone makes a wish.


Actually, all of the saves against the Orb spells are Fortitude saves.

Whoa. No way. I just checked and you're right!

Why does a Fortitude save negate entanglement? That makes NO sense...

jiriku
2011-12-02, 01:34 AM
Why does a Fortitude save negate entanglement? That makes NO sense...

Why does the orb even inflict entanglement? That makes no sense either. :smallbiggrin:

NeoSeraphi
2011-12-02, 01:41 AM
Why does the orb even inflict entanglement? That makes no sense either. :smallbiggrin:

Touche! But I guess I can see it, I mean, if you're wearing metal armor, the electricity magnetizes it to your skin and restricts your movement (Maybe?) Still, that is definitely a RefNegates effect.

DeAnno
2011-12-02, 03:03 AM
One could make the argument you can't reflex out of your own armor, you simply need the fortitude (or more precisely, brute strength) to be able to shrug off the magnetic forces.

Yitzi
2011-12-02, 09:19 AM
Then it'd be a strength check, not a Fort save.

Deepbluediver
2011-12-02, 09:48 AM
Touche! But I guess I can see it, I mean, if you're wearing metal armor, the electricity magnetizes it to your skin and restricts your movement (Maybe?) Still, that is definitely a RefNegates effect.

I picture the effect being similar to a tazer; the electricity disrupts your body's nervous system and your muscles start to spasm, making it hard/impossible to control your movevents.
The Fort save is because its not a mental effect (so no will involved) and you can't "dodge" electricity (no reflex) but if you are tough enough you can overcome the involuntary twitching your own muscles are doing.
Thats my take on it anyhow.

Its not actually entangling you with something physical like magical roots, but the effect is the same, so they declined to make up another ability that was identical accept for what we call it.

jiriku
2011-12-02, 11:47 AM
I picture the effect being similar to a tazer; the electricity disrupts your body's nervous system and your muscles start to spasm, making it hard/impossible to control your movevents.
The Fort save is because its not a mental effect (so no will involved) and you can't "dodge" electricity (no reflex) but if you are tough enough you can overcome the involuntary twitching your own muscles are doing.
Thats my take on it anyhow.

Its not actually entangling you with something physical like magical roots, but the effect is the same, so they declined to make up another ability that was identical accept for what we call it.

I picture the effect as WoTC taking Realism and Consistency out into the alley behind their office, savagely performing immoral acts on them without the benefit of lube, than blindfolding them, lining them up against a wall, and executing them via firing squad without so much as a "would you chaps like a final cigarette".

Grod_The_Giant
2011-12-02, 11:58 AM
I picture the effect as WoTC taking Realism and Consistency out into the alley behind their office, savagely performing immoral acts on them without the benefit of lube, than blindfolding them, lining them up against a wall, and executing them via firing squad without so much as a "would you chaps like a final cigarette".

I just sprayed coke all over my monitor. Well played, sir. Well played.

Cieyrin
2011-12-02, 12:11 PM
Combine it with Snow casting and Cold Focus etc. and they all become Cold damage that can ignore Cold immunity.

You don't need Snow Casting, though. Cold is already a descriptor. Energy Substitution(Cold) and Piercing Cold or Energy Substitution(Fire) and Searing Spell will handle it nicely. Piercing Cold just has Frost Mage to back it up being the only real difference.

NeoSeraphi
2011-12-02, 12:38 PM
I picture the effect being similar to a tazer; the electricity disrupts your body's nervous system and your muscles start to spasm, making it hard/impossible to control your movevents.
The Fort save is because its not a mental effect (so no will involved) and you can't "dodge" electricity (no reflex) but if you are tough enough you can overcome the involuntary twitching your own muscles are doing.
Thats my take on it anyhow.

Its not actually entangling you with something physical like magical roots, but the effect is the same, so they declined to make up another ability that was identical accept for what we call it.

Okay, but then why does it only apply if you're wearing metal armor? Why doesn't it apply all the time?

motionmatrix
2011-12-02, 01:09 PM
[SIZE="4"]
You make a ranged touch attack at up to four different enemies. You may choose which orb affects which enemy, or send multiple orbs at a single or two or three targets. (Four orbs at one, or two orbs at two, or three orbs at one and one orb at the other, etc).

Would it be easier to say:

You make a ranged touch attack with each orb, and may target whomever you choose. You must make a ranged touch attack for each orb, regardless of how many strike the same target.

NeoSeraphi
2011-12-02, 01:10 PM
Would it be easier to say:

You make a ranged touch attack with each orb, and may target whomever you choose. You must make a ranged touch attack for each orb, regardless of how many strike the same target.

I don't know, I think my wording is pretty clear.

motionmatrix
2011-12-02, 01:39 PM
The wording is clear, just unnecessary, you pretty much state every single option available.

Deepbluediver
2011-12-02, 06:22 PM
Okay, but then why does it only apply if you're wearing metal armor? Why doesn't it apply all the time?
ok, I'm REALLY scraping the bottom of the barrel here, but since you won't take "it just does" for an answer, here goes:

normally getting hit in the chest (or head, whatever) with a lightning bolt would just knock you down and cause damage.
But metal is obviously a conductor of electricity, so it spreads the effect out and holds onto a charge for some time after the initial shock, causing twitching and muscle spasms, which is the movement-impairing effect.
Yeah I KNOW electricity doesn't actually work that way but its MAGIC, cut me a little slack.

NeoSeraphi
2011-12-02, 06:26 PM
Haha. That's what it always comes down to, I guess. Man, I love this game but sometimes it's just hard to wrap my head around the rules and the exceptions and the contradictions...

Deepbluediver
2011-12-02, 07:07 PM
Haha. That's what it always comes down to, I guess. Man, I love this game but sometimes it's just hard to wrap my head around the rules and the exceptions and the contradictions...
And we all have our own quirks.

Now me, I don't have a problem with people playing god and savagely violating every law of nature to create horrible abominations, but they had better not touch physics.
You cross-bred a fish and a monkey? No problem!
Radiation+deadly chemicals+ lightning = superpowers? Works for me.
Make fully grown clones that retain all memory? Who doesn't these days?

But in one of the Resident Evil movies (I didn't watch any of them more than once) some scientist is like "the zombies don't actually NEED to eat or breath or anything" and the corrupt corporate executive is all "they'll be the perfect infinite slave-labor force, as soon as we can get them under control".
I'm fine with zombies apparently, but as soon as I heard that I'm like "NOOOOOOO! It doesn't work that way! Muscles still burn calories when they do anthing at all. You literally cannot have motion without energy being expended in some fashion! same thing for oxygen! without it the muscles lock up and rapidly begin to break down! When the feck did our scientific nightmare suddenly become biological techno-magic?"

It prompted me to write out a whole set of "rules" for both biological and magical zombies, and what the causes and limitations are for each. Not even in a game setting or anything, I was just like "if I ever have a 100 million dollars to blow and I decide to make a movie, here's how its gonna work".

So yeah, I understand your hesitance when it comes to unlimited willing suspension of disbelief. Let me know if there are any other spells you can't seem to wrap your head around and I'll do my best to come up with a semi-rational explanation.

Gaiyamato
2011-12-03, 06:20 PM
Would it be easier to say:

You make a ranged touch attack with each orb, and may target whomever you choose. You must make a ranged touch attack for each orb, regardless of how many strike the same target.

I agree with motionmatrix here. This is much clearer.

Lonely Tylenol
2011-12-04, 08:54 AM
Then it'd be a strength check, not a Fort save.

How about this:

You can't reflex out of your armor, so you have to tough it out to avoid all your muscles going lax at the same time, forcing you to vacate your bowels.

60d6 out of the starting gate with no save to reduce damage and four complementary Fort-based save-or-sucks to go with it? Disintegrate and Polar Ray would like a word.

I'm of the mind that a variant spell using a more powerful effect from an existing spell should faithfully emulate the spell in question as if it were metamagicked to faithfully recreate the new spell using the old as a base (which is why most "Mass" spells are three levels higher than their original counterparts). If I were to twin an Orb of X twice (which does part of the job of faithfully recreating this new spell), it'd be an epic-level spell, and we haven't yet gotten to the point where we emulate four different debuffs and damage types in one spell.

P.S. Good to see you again, Neo. :smallsmile:

Violet Octopus
2011-12-04, 09:43 AM
I get that it's Evocation because that school needs more nice things, and after reading the thread, I understand that SR:Yes is for balance reasons, but the spell really ought to note those exceptions in the text in addition to the altered damage cap. Otherwise I can easily see DMs thinking it was a typo and not letting an enthusiastic player take it because poor writing = bad balance or something. That would be a shame, because the spell is potent and feels iconic, like any good evocation spell.

On its balance relative to other blasting spells, Disintegrate has great out-of-combat utility, and Polar Ray is pretty sucky.


I picture the effect being similar to a tazer; the electricity disrupts your body's nervous system and your muscles start to spasm, making it hard/impossible to control your movevents.
...
Its not actually entangling you with something physical like magical roots, but the effect is the same, so they declined to make up another ability that was identical accept for what we call it.
This is what I imagined when I first read the spell.

edit: I like how moving it from Conjuration still stealthily gives the finger to shades.

Lonely Tylenol
2011-12-04, 10:25 AM
On its balance relative to other blasting spells, Disintegrate has great out-of-combat utility, and Polar Ray is pretty sucky.

Point-for-point, it's pretty much the best Evocation's got among the higher-level spells, which means that this new spell just obliterates the previous gold standard.

I mean, we're talking about a spell that, at its minimum level (15), is bound do do about 60*3.5, or 210, damage on average. If you really wanted, you could get Energy Substitution (fire) and a Greater Rod of Searing Spell and take to Heaven with a vengeance, because at level 15, you're doing enough average damage with a single spell to kill a CR23 Solar in one hit. No save for half.

It just seems like (more than) a tad much, is all. I thought we were trying to prevent ridiculous one-shot kills from supermassive damage attacks from being anything but an exercise in optimization, not the default option!

Violet Octopus
2011-12-04, 12:00 PM
Solars are a bit of a glass cannon (compared to balors, pit fiends, and very old gold dragons, who have the HP to survive average damage), and that assumes the caster makes the SR check.

You are right though - at the very least, allowing this spell means the DM has to look for monsters with a higher touch AC (or shift some of the solar's absurd natural armor bonus to dodge or deflection), or give fire-resistant creatures immunity instead so Searing Spell is at least blunted. Of course, that carries the standard risks of arms races, treadmills, players feeling punished for taking good spells, and so on.

Maybe it's worth bumping the spell up to 9th level, or having the orbs all do half damage, which makes it a little worse than Disintegrate versus a single target.

Lonely Tylenol
2011-12-04, 12:27 PM
If the orbs did half damage, then they would scale exactly with Disintegrate (in terms of total HD damage), but they would still be strictly better than Disintegrate in terms of combat effectiveness, because Disintegrate has a Fort save to reduce the damage to 5D6 and doesn't produce averse effects the way this spell does. I think that this is more than fine, considering that it's a higher-level spell than Disintegrate.

I might be okay with it if it were a ninth-level spell as well, although it's still strictly better than a fourth-level orb with five levels of metamagic added onto it (even if you picked the absolute best combination of metamagics to work with). It's still a huge leap from anything else in the Evocation school (or outside of it, even) even if it's at ninth level instead of eight as far as direct damage is concerned, but at ninth you'd be deciding whether you want to try to one-shot a solar, or simply Gate in your own, so I think that's fair enough.

NeoSeraphi
2011-12-04, 12:28 PM
Point-for-point, it's pretty much the best Evocation's got among the higher-level spells, which means that this new spell just obliterates the previous gold standard.

I mean, we're talking about a spell that, at its minimum level (15), is bound do do about 60*3.5, or 210, damage on average. If you really wanted, you could get Energy Substitution (fire) and a Greater Rod of Searing Spell and take to Heaven with a vengeance, because at level 15, you're doing enough average damage with a single spell to kill a CR23 Solar in one hit. No save for half.

It just seems like (more than) a tad much, is all. I thought we were trying to prevent ridiculous one-shot kills from supermassive damage attacks from being anything but an exercise in optimization, not the default option!

I don't take optimization into account when I make a new spell. The current Evocation spells all suck when compared to SoDs. Just because metamagic is broken doesn't mean that I should weaken my spells to compensate for it.

DeAnno
2011-12-04, 12:40 PM
Like many things in 3.5, Direct Damage sort of lives in a weird state due to the spells being (for the most part) brokenly weak while the various augmentation effects are brokenly strong. However, by the time you're casting 8th level spells the whole game is on its head anyway, and this lets people dip a bit into DD without needing to build their entire selves around it (and those that do build themselves around it get a better toy, but not something that really changes their game).