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homeosapiens
2011-12-01, 11:43 PM
Tarquin did put Elan in position to use any or all resources of his kingdom. Roy was there when it was said. 672 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0672.html) Here we see, that Roy plans battle with Xykon round by round. Every resource of EoB means a lot of magic items. What could they get? Could they get something that would really help against Xykon? Could Belkar get +5 undead bane daggers?

I d like this thread to be for guys who like and know some mechanics. Could OotS beat the crap out of Xykon if they had any non epic item they want? What would they need the most? I guess Tarquin could provide +10(+5 with effects) items. He got three empires. Heck - he has a cleric and a sorc/wiz who could craft them!

rbetieh
2011-12-01, 11:49 PM
Well considering Xykons known strategy of meteor storming everything in sight, items that protect from fire would go top of the list.

NerfTW
2011-12-02, 12:16 AM
Could OotS beat the crap out of Xykon if they had any non epic item they want?

Yes, of course they could. Your question allows infinite possibilities, all specifically tailored to Xykon's exact weaknesses.

The catch is that the Order doesn't know what magical items Xykon has. Remember, he's had a year of crafting items for 8 hours every day. And Tarquin isn't omnipotent. He'd need to have the item before he can give it to them. Just because he has a lot of magical items related to the area he's in doesn't mean he has any that will do squat against a lich.

SamBurke
2011-12-02, 12:23 AM
Yes, of course they could. Your question allows infinite possibilities, all specifically tailored to Xykon's exact weaknesses.

The catch is that the Order doesn't know what magical items Xykon has. Remember, he's had a year of crafting items for 8 hours every day. And Tarquin isn't omnipotent. He'd need to have the item before he can give it to them. Just because he has a lot of magical items related to the area he's in doesn't mean he has any that will do squat against a lich.

I was about to say how common liches are, but there are so few in this world (Liches are almost always near-epic, and we know that Xykon is the only, or almost the only, epic spellcaster left alive).

However, custom items of undead bane and such would work... wands and such would be easy to get... maybe some common defense items (SOULFIRE ARMOR, HELLO?)

Bulldog Psion
2011-12-02, 07:13 AM
I'm reasonably certain Tarquin could supply them with some magic items that would at least help a bit with their quest.

And I'm also reasonably certain that they will not ask him for said items, because the Order almost always make the worst possible choices when it comes to practical abilities. :smallbiggrin:

Palthera
2011-12-02, 07:20 AM
You can get relatively unremarkable items for things like immunity to fire and lightning - both Xykon's favourite energy types. When Durkon finishes his mass depth gourd (sorry, death ward) then that will be protection from energy drain.
Most of Xykon's talismans and things are probably buffs for himself, we know he's got a positive energy protection ring, so I wouldn't bother with anything based around positive energy.

Although, when my players faced a lich it ended up getting a disintegrate to the face and turning to powder. I'm still not sure if there was something I missed that wouldn't have made that possible. But otherwise, disintegrate is something I'd recommend.

Ancalagon
2011-12-02, 07:38 AM
The problem is also that Xykon might seem totally clueless, but he surely has shown us time and time again he never shows friends or foe all the aces he has up his sleeves - and he has gotten much more careful after nearly getting defeated by Soon's Ghost.

Vaarsuvius found out the hard way Xykon had level 12 spell slots ready - and I very much doubt that is all he could do. I bet Xykon has a unique epic spell ready that enables him to concentrate a lot of force to kill whatever stands in his way. How can you prepare against what you do not know?

Yet, I agree: The Order should use all those ressources Tarquin offered to prepare against what they know of Xykon abilities (they have his nearly-complete spell list). And they even should take the "evil items". Not taking the Ring of Regeneration won't undo what Tarquin did to make it and "rescueing the Multiverse" should merit at least some compromises.

As for disintegrate: We saw Darth Vaarsuvius using Disintegrate on Xykon, he seems to have a rather high deflection bonus. (Quickened) True Strike + Disintegrate should be able to take care of that, though.

Dr.Epic
2011-12-02, 10:19 AM
Every resource of EoB means a lot of magic items.

What? How do you know they have a lot of magic items? Aside from the general notion that an entire nation would have a lot of magic items compared to the amount the average PC or collective party would have, how do you know this? We haven't seen many. Maybe they don't have a lot of magic items compared to the average amount of any other nation. Maybe Tarquin even outlawed many magic items so no one would have a chance to plan an effective revolt.

rbetieh
2011-12-02, 10:39 AM
What? How do you know they have a lot of magic items? Aside from the general notion that an entire nation would have a lot of magic items compared to the amount the average PC or collective party would have, how do you know this? We haven't seen many. Maybe they don't have a lot of magic items compared to the average amount of any other nation. Maybe Tarquin even outlawed many magic items so no one would have a chance to plan an effective revolt.

Its the fact that the nation is run by 2 high level adventurers and a Dragon (that presumably likes to hoard, right?) that would make it logical for there to be more magic stuff in the hands of the EoB government than in most countries, IMHO.

Kurald Galain
2011-12-02, 11:18 AM
we know he's got a positive energy protection ring,
Sure, but the Order does not.

Dr.Epic
2011-12-02, 11:29 AM
Its the fact that the nation is run by 2 high level adventurers and a Dragon (that presumably likes to hoard, right?) that would make it logical for there to be more magic stuff in the hands of the EoB government than in most countries, IMHO.

Again, that's an assumption. We have no actual proof. We actually need to see or hear these items mentioned.

Goosefarble
2011-12-02, 12:56 PM
"I have a few duplicate magic items that may really help you." (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0762.html)

He's not saying his kingdom's abundant in them, sure, but he's got some, and he's willing to part with them. It's all moot anyway, though, because Elan's not going to accept them, and Tarquin's not going to have carefully-worded alibis for all of them. Especially because that would be a really lame joke to repeat a bunch of times.

Deepbluediver
2011-12-02, 01:54 PM
Tarquin did put Elan in position to use any or all resources of his kingdom.

are we talking purely theoretically here? assuming Elan was willing to use Tarquin's probably-illegally obtained magic items?

See, I read the implication of that statement as: "...for stopping Nale."

I'm pretty sure that a little while back, there was a panel where Tarquin said something to the effect of "he didn't have an issue with WHAT Nale was doing, but how he went about it".
I know it seems like Xykon (who wants to rule the world) and Tarquin (who wants to rule a large chunk of it) would be in conflict, but I wouldn't put any money down on which way he might lean if it came to fighting the lich. Maybe Tarquin would be happy to set Xykon up as one more ruler (albiet a bit more powerful than normal) and continue his current act of the man-behind the curtain. And by now I'm sure Xykon wouldn't say no to a ready-made army and some more competent minions.

homeosapiens
2011-12-02, 11:15 PM
My point is Elan is in position to use, but Roy is there and hears all this. He is the mastermind behind OotS, he plans the battles - he would like to get some upgreades even if they were obtain in not exacly LG way. I mean he sees the big picture, the end that justifies the means and so on.
1. There is nothing he can do for every person(or whatever it was), that Tarquin looted.
2. Saving the world rescues every other beeing in the world(those are still alive).

Elan might not see that. But Roy? Also - Roy can persuade Elan to do whatever he pleases. It would be convenient to recsource dig for them.

Tarquin's party, Dragon hoard, every magic shop in three emipires(it's a tyranny, T can take what he want's) every adventurer's gear that was put in jail - i guess it makes a lot of potential. Plus T could also order from somwhere alse(not the kingdom) i guess gold in not a problem.

Deepbluediver
2011-12-02, 11:41 PM
My point is Elan is in position to use, but Roy is there and hears all this. He is the mastermind behind OotS, he plans the battles - he would like to get some upgreades even if they were obtain in not exacly LG way. I mean he sees the big picture, the end that justifies the means and so on.
1. There is nothing he can do for every person(or whatever it was), that Tarquin looted.
2. Saving the world rescues every other beeing in the world(those are still alive).

Elan might not see that. But Roy? Also - Roy can persuade Elan to do whatever he pleases. It would be convenient to recsource dig for them.

Tarquin's party, Dragon hoard, every magic shop in three emipires(it's a tyranny, T can take what he want's) every adventurer's gear that was put in jail - i guess it makes a lot of potential. Plus T could also order from somwhere alse(not the kingdom) i guess gold in not a problem.

Nnnngh, really? I don't think you are understanding the LG alignment very well at all.
Remember that conversation Roy had with the diva back during his out-of-body experience (when he died)? She made a big point about using non-lawful tactics to achieve his means, and how it wouldn't be a big deal for her to kick Roy's soul/file over the Nuetral-good area.

I admit none of us know exactly how the good-evil alignments play out in the OotS universe, I've been in campaigns where intent and motivation where quite important, and ones where action and results alone where the determining factor. As it stands, Elan seems disgusted with his father, and wants as little to do with him as possible, Durkon might actually suffer cleric-issues if he starts walking around with evil magic items, and Roy would be reluctant at best, I think. Haley and Varsuvius are probably a toss-up; Haley doesn't like Tarquin but she knows how to get things done, V might, if he can come up with something clever that matches his current character changes. That just leaves Belkar, who I don't doubt would take whatever Tarquin offered and ask for more, but the rest of the party my veto this on basis of not wanting the chaotic-evil hafling to outmatch the entire rest of the party.


Plus, again, I hear Tarquin's offer as pertaining only to Elan's quest to stop Nale. I suspect that he (Tarquin) would probably at the very least start asking tough questions (like the kind Haley doesn't want to raise) if the group all of a sudden requests a full set of magical treasure, some of it certainly best suited to fighting Undead or goblins.

Forikroder
2011-12-03, 12:02 AM
although he does have alot of resources, the worth of the items they would need in order to really mop the floor with Xykon is enough to put small countries into bankruptcy

i mean its not like Tarquin literally has the resources to give every member +10 undead bane weapons in every slot and +10 adamantite armour and other such insanely high level magic items and completely pimp the order out

also roy would consider tarquin learning about the gates as the worst possible scenario (especially with on being in his backyard) so if they start decking themselves out to combat undead and powerful spellcasters Tarquin gonna start wondering why there setting up to fight things they all know Elan doesnt have access too

GSFB
2011-12-03, 12:14 AM
We don't know that. T might have all that and more. Or T might think a handful of +4 items is a serious haul. We really can't do more than guess - and a good guess is that yes, T can really help out the OotS but how much is pure speculation.

Forikroder
2011-12-03, 12:15 AM
We don't know that. T might have all that and more. Or T might think a handful of +4 items is a serious haul. We really can't do more than guess - and a good guess is that yes, T can really help out the OotS but how much is pure speculation.

he certainly can, but its not a good idea to accept the help for the most part

Sunken Valley
2011-12-04, 12:56 PM
Hey maybe Elan will use this to get the Lawful Tarquin to give up his Kingdom!

factotum
2011-12-04, 05:09 PM
Hey maybe Elan will use this to get the Lawful Tarquin to give up his Kingdom!

Even assuming Lawfulness meant that Tarquin had to do anything Elan asked him to at this point (hint: it doesn't), your idea does rather rely on Tarquin being outsmarted by Elan...which is about as likely as Roy becoming a wizard to defeat Xykon!

squidbreath
2011-12-05, 02:21 AM
I admit none of us know exactly how the good-evil alignments play out in the OotS universe, I've been in campaigns where intent and motivation where quite important, and ones where action and results alone where the determining factor.


Actually, I think actions might count a bit more. Iirc, Origins had a not-so-well intentioned paladin.

eulmanis12
2011-12-20, 08:35 AM
anything tarquin gives them probably comes with a catch. Knowing Tarquin is more devious than I could ever hope to be, he probably will have an "insurance policy" for said magic Items even more devious than what I could come up with.

Here is mine.
All of the magic Items I hand out have some sort of remote detonation spell activated by a command word, or lose all their powers with a command word, or have a sigil of REALLY BAD THINGS HAPPEN TO WHOEVER IS HOLDING THIS that is activated by a command word. Once the gates are secure and the party inevitably comes after me, I say the command word. I'm assuming that whatever Tarquin comes up with is A) signifigantly better than what I just did. and B) feasable due to the fact that he has the resources of 3 nations, his own "high level" party, and a vast amount of diplomatic power at his disposal. (Even if his own wizards can't cast a powerful enough spell he probably has a bunch of powerful mages that owe him a favor. Connections are a weapon too and he should know this.)

Totally Guy
2011-12-20, 08:59 AM
The catch is that the Order doesn't know what magical items Xykon has. Remember, he's had a year of crafting items for 8 hours every day.

O Chul gave Roy a partial list of spells, items and feats that he'd observed Xykon using. That's got to count for something. And Xykon's probably prioritised the phylactery search over crafting since his prisoners escaped.

Bulldog Psion
2011-12-21, 06:31 AM
Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaand now we know -- the catch is a tracking device.