[Pathfinder] Witches Sabbat?

[Crasical]

Simple question: A witch takes Leadership to get a Coven, and has all her new followers be 1st level witches with the Coven hex. Now, all the 1st level followers can spend a full round action to boost the lead witch's caster level by 1. This can add up to a pretty huge caster level bonus, but It doesn't really seem to be all that useful in a strict pathfinder game, since all the damaging spells are capped pretty low and save DCs don't go up with high caster levels. The most interesting use of this that I've found is that a large coven can bring back centuries-dead heroes by using Resurrection.

So what can you do with an artificially inflated caster level?

[NamelessNPC]

Not all damage spells are capped. Wail of the banshee, Destruction and Finger of death aren't.

[Viktyr Gehrig]

The caster level bonus also applies to Hexes. Hex save DCs do scale with level.

[legomaster00156]

Hex save DCs do scale with level.
Witch level, not caster level.

The save to resist a hex is equal to 10 + 1/2 the witch’s level + the witch’s Intelligence modifier

[Gnaeus]

It would help beat SR (of course, if a witch is fighting something with SR, she should just use a hex and ignore it).

Teleport farther.

Greater Dispel Magic.

Animate more/bigger objects.

[The Glyphstone]

Brew extremely potent potions, if she has the cash.

[Human Paragon 3]

Do witches get access to blasphemy?

[navar100]

Even for damage spells that do cap, a 7th level witch casting a 10d6 Lightning Bolt instead of her normal 7d6 Lightning Bolt despite never being able to do an 11d6 Lightning Bolt is still a nice thing to cast.

[Crasical]

Not all damage spells are capped. Wail of the banshee, Destruction and Finger of death aren't.

They all allow a save, though. If anything makes the fort save they're taking some piddly amount instead of 300 damage, and the sabbat doesn't do anything to increase the save DC.
Wail of the Banshee has a radius of 40 feet, and your helper witches need to be within 30 ft. You'd end up killing most of your own coven.


It would help beat SR (of course, if a witch is fighting something with SR, she should just use a hex and ignore it).

Teleport farther.

Greater Dispel Magic.

Animate more/bigger objects.

Good points!



Brew extremely potent potions, if she has the cash.

And witches can even pick up the Cauldron Hex for free brew potion. Neat.
EDIT: Though I'm not sure you actually can. The Brew Potion feat for pathfinder states "When you create a potion, you set the caster level, which must be sufficient to cast the spell in question and no higher than your own level." so possibly you can't use Caster Level increases for making a potion.


Do witches get access to blasphemy?

They do not.


Even for damage spells that do cap, a 7th level witch casting a 10d6 Lightning Bolt instead of her normal 7d6 Lightning Bolt despite never being able to do an 11d6 Lightning Bolt is still a nice thing to cast.

While you certainly could drag around three or four novice 1st level witches for the purpose of hanging back and buffing your magic in combat, I'm thinking more on the scale of having 30 or so other witches coming together for one climactic spell that can do things like defeat epic-level enemies or move mountains, raise heroes thousands of years dead or teleport someone halfway around the world.

[Tvtyrant]

Buy a scroll with a high level spell on it, boost your CL to the sky, and make a magic item way higher than you normally could.

[Human Paragon 3]

OK, multiclass witch and cleric, then go into Mystic Theurge. Have your coven boost your caster level super high, and then unleash a massive blasphemy (or holy word or whatever) killing everyone you hate with no saving throw.

[NamelessNPC]

It's will partial in PF. Still, 1 round paralized + 1d4 rounds blind should do it

[Viktyr Gehrig]

Witch level, not caster level.


Coven (Ex): The witch counts as a hag for the purpose of joining a hag’s coven. The coven must contain at least one hag. In addition, whenever the witch with this hex is within 30 feet of another witch with this hex, she can use the aid another action to grant a +1 bonus to the other witch’s caster level for 1 round. This bonus applies to the witch’s spells and all of her hexes.

Emphasis mine. No element of any Witch hex relies on caster level, so what else could this be referring to?

[Ravens_cry]

*scratches head*
If a witch counts as a hag for a coven, does a coven with a witch in it need an actual, Bestiary book, Hag?

[Curious]

*scratches head*
If a witch counts as a hag for a coven, does a coven with a witch in it need an actual, Bestiary book, Hag?

I don't believe so, no.

[Viktyr Gehrig]

I'm pretty sure that the line about needing at least one hag means needing at least one actual hag. Otherwise, all it would be saying is that a coven has to have at least one member-- which is a truism.

[Curious]

I'm pretty sure that the line about needing at least one hag means needing at least one actual hag. Otherwise, all it would be saying is that a coven has to have at least one member-- which is a truism.

But the hex also states that the Witch counts specifically as a hag, so by RAW you could have a coven composed of three witches, without the need for a bestiary hag. RAI seems to lean towards your interpretation, but they didn't spell it out clearly enough.

[Ravens_cry]

I'm pretty sure that the line about needing at least one hag means needing at least one actual hag. Otherwise, all it would be saying is that a coven has to have at least one member-- which is a truism.
Which is why I am confused. I checked the SRD, and there is, as of yet, no errata or clarifying explanation.

[VarianArdell]

Which is why I am confused. I checked the SRD, and there is, as of yet, no errata or clarifying explanation.

That's because there doesn't need to be. That line is about a witch counting as a hag for the purpose of joining a Hag's Coven. As per the Bestiary (specifically the Green Hag entry):

When three hags of any type gather, they can form a coven to gain increased magical ability. Any combination of hags can form a coven, but green hags are the most common members of such foul gatherings.
Whenever all three hags of a particular coven are within 10 feet of one another, all three of them can work together to use any of the following spell-like abilities: animate dead, baleful polymorph (DC 18), blight (DC 17), bestow curse (DC 17), clairaudience/clairvoyance, charm monster (DC 17), commune, control weather, dream, forcecage, mind blank, mirage arcana (DC 18), reincarnate, speak with dead, veil (DC 19), vision.
All three hags must take a full-round action to take part in this form of cooperative magic. All coven spell-like abilities function at CL 9th (or at the highest CL available to the most powerful hag in the coven). The save DCs are Charisma-based, and function as if with a Charisma score of 16 unless one of the hags has a higher Charisma score, in which case the spell-like ability DCs are adjusted by that hag’s Charisma modifier.

[Curious]

That's because there doesn't need to be. That line is about a witch counting as a hag for the purpose of joining a Hag's Coven. As per the Bestiary (specifically the Green Hag entry)

While this is true, a Witch with the coven hex counts as a hag, and thus they do not require a 'real' hag, since they are 'real' hags.

[VarianArdell]

While this is true, a Witch with the coven hex counts as a hag, and thus they do not require a 'real' hag, since they are 'real' hags.

Yes, it counts as a hag, but only:

Coven (Ex): The witch counts as a hag for the purpose of joining a hag’s coven.

Therefore, a real hag is indeed needed. For that matter, it says right in the hex's description: The coven must contain at least one hag.

[Curious]

Yes, it counts as a hag, but only:


Therefore, a real hag is indeed needed. For that matter, it says right in the hex's description: The coven must contain at least one hag.

But a witch is a hag, thanks to the same hex. Since you need at least three people in a coven, you would actually be joining a hags coven, since all three witches count as hags.

[Crasical]

I believe Varian is correct. To get the free co-operative Spell-like abilities, an actual hag needs to be present. A coven without a real hag is limited to using actions to buff each other's caster level.

[Curious]

I believe Varian is correct. To get the free co-operative Spell-like abilities, an actual hag needs to be present. A coven without a real hag is limited to using actions to buff each other's caster level.

That's the thing, the Witches are actual hags for the purposes of joining a coven. So, they can use the whole range of abilities granted by a covens gathering.

[Ravens_cry]

We can argue Rules As Written until we are blue in the face, but Rules As Intended has been clarified (http://paizo.com/forums/dmtz2u4o&page=257?Ask-James-Jacobs-ALL-your-Questions-Here#12836).
Ain't the Internet great?:smallbiggrin:

[The Witch-King]

We can argue Rules As Written until we are blue in the face, but Rules As Intended has been clarified (http://paizo.com/forums/dmtz2u4o&page=257?Ask-James-Jacobs-ALL-your-Questions-Here#12836).
Ain't the Internet great?:smallbiggrin:

Thanks for the clarification--I had been wondering about that one a long time myself.

[mint]

Here are a few things:

Black Tentacles, they use caster level to determine CMD. This does not appear to be capped. Given enough witches, you can grapple all things.

Hit 90% divinations at much lower level.

The spell Debilitating Portent has a DC component based on CL once it has landed. Halves all damage dealt by target on fail.

There's the hex Dire Prophecy. If you land it with a good sized coven you can completely nuke a save leaving the target open for whatever you feel like.

You could cast Spell Resistance, uncapped, CL based.

Create quite a lot of snakes with Snake Staff.

[VarianArdell]

We can argue Rules As Written until we are blue in the face, but Rules As Intended has been clarified (http://paizo.com/forums/dmtz2u4o&page=257?Ask-James-Jacobs-ALL-your-Questions-Here#12836).
Ain't the Internet great?:smallbiggrin:

oh, thank the gods! you have no idea this post makes me... arguments like this make me want to pull my hair out. also, I think you've convinced me to join the Paizo boards... :smallbiggrin:

[Ravens_cry]

oh, thank the gods! you have no idea this post makes me... arguments like this make me want to pull my hair out. also, I think you've convinced me to join the Paizo boards... :smallbiggrin:
They have just as many of these arguments, it's just that there is a thread where the White Phone is local, so to speak.