Trying to build an Espionage style Character

[Celesyne]

So, I'm relatively new to the actual pen and paper D&D, but I've found a group that I have been playing with and am working on a character of my own (they started me with a pre-made they had spare). The one major thing this group is lack is the lockpicking/trap-removing/disguise stealthy character. We have a Master of everything kinda player, so he can do a bit of everything and in several cases better than the dedicated character can. What I'm looking to do is make a Changeling character that use its lockpicking/disguise self/bluff and the like skills out of combat for maximum RP and awesome potential, as well as be at least somewhat effective in combat as well. As far as what we are allowed to use, anything but Dragon Magazine or a non-book online source is allowed.

My current thought is a Lawful Evil Rogue/Assassin but Assassin doesnt really add much, and Death Attack seems underwhelming.

Edit: oh, the level I get to start at is 8, as that is what the rest of the party is.

[Killer Angel]

My current thought is a Lawful Evil Rogue/Assassin but Assassin doesnt really add much, and Death Attack seems underwhelming.

Edit: oh, the level I get to start at is 8, as that is what the rest of the party is.

Any chance for some bard, instead of assassin? They're excellent for the social skills, and got some very nice spells for the bluff / disguise thing. Having all the splatbooks available should makes it easier.

[Celesyne]

I have no objections to just about any class, but other than the skills I didn't see much that Bard would add. Then again, I'm an MMO gamer coming down to D&D where +2 means a hell of a lot more than it does in my game.

Also forgot to mention that there is no multi-class penalties, so I can use as many classes as I'd like with no issues.

[BobVosh]

Iron chef just did a shadowdancer competition. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=220956&page=11) You may have to dial back a few to normal power levels depending on the group, but a lot of fun ideas in the group. A ton of builds in that one too.

[Celesyne]

Most of the group is fairly normal in regards to power, however we have 1 guy who is the min.max and i think sometimes cheating master. He's playing a level 8 character that can fight, pick lock and disable traps, cast better than my level 8 wizard, and has enough magic items to level a small country. So, i'm more than willing to cheese it up to just outperform him in at least 1 area. I haven't been able to look at his character sheet, but from the way he plays it its something like Warblade/wizard/Jade Pheonix Mage/Blood Magus/Geometer. He's absolutely cheesediculous.


EDIT: I kinda like Claire a.k.a. The Marvelous Mr. Dini! from the IC thing, but truth be told.... I'm not sure I understand half of whats going on there...Any chance of having it explained sorta?

I let the main DM roll my stats as I currently dont own any dice (something I would love to fix) and got some rather awesome stats. 18,18,18,17,16,15 is what it came out to be, and this is before the 2 points worth of adjustment for level 4 and 8, Also, he hates my guts cause he cant get anything near that nice for his characters. :smallbiggrin:

[Psyren]

With stats like that you could almost be anything. For a Skillmonkey that is also effective in combat, I would recommend one of the following:

Factotum
Beguiler
Bard (w/ appropriate splats)
Incarnate

[Feytalist]

For pure flavour, Spymaster might be interesting.

Not much to add to a party, though. Some enhanced disguise/hiding capability, is all.

[DeusMortuusEst]

Master of masks and Chameleon are also two nice prc:s if you want to focus on infiltration and espionage.

[Celesyne]

I was looking at Rogue simply because I thought Sneak Attack would be the best way to keep my combat ability in the effective range. Really, being able to do disguises, bluffing lockpicking disable device and the like are the main of what I want to focus on, I just dont want to be useless at everything else. Figured you guys could help me knock Mr. Cheesemasters socks off in at least 1 aspect. :smallsmile:


EDIT: My current goal is finding ways to abuse the heck out of Minor Shapechange racial and disguise/bluff scores to be just magnificient at subterfuge. I don't intend to let the party know I'm a Changeling at all, unless they find a way to figure it out on their own. My problem runs into how to do that, and maintain the picklocks/disable device and the ability to at least be proficient in combat, without gimping myself in one way or another.

[marcielle]

Changelings? Well, aside from a nice buff to social skills, they also gives 10 skillpoints at first level if you take the Rogue substitution level.

[Psyren]

Changelings? Well, aside from a nice buff to social skills, they also gives 10 skillpoints at first level if you take the Rogue substitution level.

The problem here is that the first level, which provides the lion's share of the bonuses, causes you to lose trapfinding - the very thing he wanted. Great if you're slumming around the cities for the whole campaign, not so great out in the dungeon.


I was looking at Rogue simply because I thought Sneak Attack would be the best way to keep my combat ability in the effective range.

Erm, that depends. Are you playing 3.5 or Pathfinder? Sneak attack is... pretty weak in 3.5.

[Keegan__D]

Factotum can abuse those stats, gets tons of skills, emulates sneak attack (as well as a bunch of other stuff), and can pretty much do anything.

Beguiler is a bit better than a sorcerer, but loaded up with his own spell list of illusions, enchantments, and a bit of transmutation. Though, with advanced learning, you can give them whatever. Gets all the good skills, and armored mage.

With a Sorcerer, you can just pick up spells to do your lock-picking. Best charisma caster I know, and the Stalwart Sorcerer can keep up your melee combat.

[Celesyne]

No pathfinder Allowed, but 3.5 with any splats other than say, Green Ronin stuff and Dragon Magizine, cause our group doesnt have good access to them. This being the 2nd character I've built ever, I'm not really sure how to pull off what I want. Arcane casting doesnt matter too much to me, since every person in the party (a party of 7 ) except the Frenzied Berserker and the Monk have some sort of dip or access to Arcane casting. Well, our cleric doesn't, but he's gone Radiant Servant of Pelor and decked his Turning out to the point that hes hit epic level turning since level 6.

Frankly, the Frenzied Berserker and Mr. Cheese, and our resident dwarven warrior,sorcerer 1, Earth Dreamer, who is also our Tactician leave everyone else as kind of after thoughts. Sure the monk hits kinda hard, but the FB stomps everyone in pure damage out put, while Mr. Cheese has the perfect tool for everything. The dwarf, while technically not overpowered, has a horde of magical items and the tactical mindset to make him rediculously dangerous. All I wanna do is carve out a little niche for myself, and this kinda the role I enjoy. I just don't know how to go about super-charging it.

[Psyren]

It sounds like damage is covered, so I re-suggest Beguiler or Factotum. Not that they can't get high damage also, it just requires specific builds (SCM and Iaijutsu respectively) that you don't need.

In strict 3.5, sneak attack is weak; even if you're up against foes where it would work, you wouldn't need the damage boost anyway; what you need is more versatility than rogue will give.

Beguiler will be especially useful here, because your one potential bane (undead) will be steamrolled by the RSoP.



(Plus, having a Grease/Solid Fog/Invisibility handy when your Frenzied Berserker is ready to flip out and kill everyone else is handy too :smalltongue:)

[Celesyne]

so this Factotum or even a Beguiler as that was the original starting point for this character and I couldnt figure out hw to work it into AWESOME, what book is it in,and how to I break it over my little knee to accomplish my goal?

[Psyren]

Factotum Handbook (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=2720.0)
Beguiler Handbook (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=363.0)

[Celesyne]

So, I've decided on a Changeling Factotum/something. Right now I'm looking at Factotum/Swordsage cause Diamond Mind and Shadow Hand manuevers fit the Master of Disguise/ Assassin thing I've got in my head, and would allow me to have pretty decent combat functionality I believe, and I wanted to use a rapier anyways. Any suggestions on...... well anything?

[zanetheinsane]

Was going to say if you couldn't be a changeling just spring for a Hat of Disguise. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#hatofDisguise) Super cheap and effective.

For prestige classes check out Mountebank from Complete Scoundrel or Spymaster from Complete Adventurer. Neither of them are amazing but do exactly what a "spy" character should.

Most people dip 1 level of Spymaster for cover identify and undetectable alignment, great for evil types. Level 3 of Spymaster isn't bad either for free at-will Nystul's Magic Aura but you can easily get that effect elsewhere.

Mountebank 3 is great to get Alter Ego. It's a free Alter Self (3HD starting )that is restricted to one specific form (your alter ego) but you can shift back and forth between them at will. Mountebank 4 isn't bad for Sideslip. It's a self-only immediate-action dimension door that works once a day but only for 20 feet. It's still (Su) so it can get shut down by antimagic, but unless someone locks you in a room with 20ft walls and doors you can escape from anything and conversely, get in anywhere. It's also worth noting that you get Sneak Attack dice at level 2 of Mountebank but you can trade them for a level in a casting class instead, so if you were already Assassin you could make up a level in that.

A one-level dip in Marshal (Miniatures Handbook) gets you Skill Focus(Diplomacy) and the minor aura Motivate Charisma which lets you add your Charisma bonus to your charisma checks twice. So with 18 CHA and a +2 magic item, you're getting +10 to Bluff/Disguise from stats instead of +5. If you can fit it anywhere else in your build you should definitely do it.

A one-level dip in Bard (or any arcane casting class depending on your DM) will let you use an Eternal Wand of Glibness (+30 to Bluff).

Complete Scoundrel offers some amazing skill tricks:

Assume Quirk: For 1 hour/day, if you impersonate someone, viewers familiar to them don't get the bonus to spot they normally would.

Second Impression: If someone sees through your disguise with a Spot check, you can use an immediate action Bluff check against their Spot check. Has some stipulations.

Social Recovery: If you fail a Diplomacy check to influence an NPC's attitude you can spend a full-round and use a Bluff check at -10 to retry. Can only use it once per 24 hours per target.

Look into any number of these items:
Mask of Lies (MIC, 4500gp): +5 competence bonus to Bluff, undetectable alignment, disguise self 3/day
Hat of Anonymity (MIC, 12500gp): +5 untyped hide bouns, continuous nondetection
Circlet of Persuasion (DMG, 4500): +3 competence bonus on Charisma-based checks
Choker of Eloquence (CAdv, 6000gp/24000gp) +5/10 competence bonus on Diplomacy, Bluff, and Perform(Sing)
Wink Brooch (MIC, 600gp) +2 competence bonus to a Bluff/Diplomacy check usable 3/day
Amulet of Wordtwisting (MIC, 6000gp): +2 insight bonus to Bluff, Diplomacy, Sense Motive, Intimidate; continuous effect (bonuses if you are an orc for some reason)
Shiftweave (MIC 500gp) Suit of clothes that can shift between 5 different outfits, no real combat uses
Ring of Chameleon Power (DMG, 12700) +10 competence to hide, at will disguise self

[Little Brother]

Bard. Melee bards can do a lot of damage normally, and give it to the party, but truly absurd amounts if you want to be a goody-two-shoes. But the Jack of all Trades feat plus the Bardic Knack ACF means you effectively have cross-class level ranks in every skill.

Plus, bards have some good casting.

[Celesyne]

My Dm is considering letting me qualify for Eternal Blade as a changeling. So, I was looking at Factotum 8/ Warblade 3/ Eternal Blade 9 as being my final level 20 build. Currently the only Feat I have set in stone is Able Learner during one of the 8 Factotum levels. Also still schmoozing through spells to figure out what to select for Arcane Dilettante. Other than REALLY wanting to use a rapier, Any suggestions for feats/spells/gear..... damn well anything that would let me be the first person to out-perform the warblade/wizard/blood magus/geometer/jade pheonix mage cheese master?

One of the other group members has a $20 bet on it saying I can't do it, hoping you folks can help me win $20! :smallbiggrin:

[mint]

Do you want to out-preform him in espionage stuff or just in general now?

[Celesyne]

Espionage is still my main focus, but I'm hoping the warblade/eternal blade will allow me to compete and maybe surpass him with the right feats/diamond mind stuff.