Recipe for a Spellless Bard

[ExemplarofAvg]

So you take the face of the party and one of the better née best support characters. Then you rip out all arcane ability until it's left twitching. And crumpled on the ground, writhing in agony while half of its existence is torn asunder. What do you then give it to let it know that everything is going to be okay.

I know spells are one the main reason to play a bard. But this weekend I'm introducing some new players to dnd, only agreeing to it because they want to see how close to skyrim it is/can be. One will be a wizard, another will be a war blade. They have a healer (as per the class using some homebrewed fixes that my DM loves) but that's more or less just a healbot. I'm playing, but I don't want to overshadow the wizard because I know the game better and know little tricks. So I'm planning to use a Spellless Bard with an Inspire Courage focus with Dragonfire Inspiration for some damage boost when needed. Game is Lvl 6. Current thought is to give a feat whenever a Bard would have gained a Spell.

He currently is a Silverbrow Human with Words of Creation, Dragonfire Inspiration, Snowflake Wardance, Song of the Heart. Harmonizing Crystal Echoblade is the weapon. They also have the Slippers of Battle Dancing. Maybe a Badge of Valor or a Belt of Battle as well. Possibly dual-wielding Echoblades. I am set for combat but won't enter unless they need it.

[Waker]

So the DM is on board with a bard with no spellcasting and is working with you on this?
Well, if you wanted to think of a variant bard I would suggest an expanded bardic performance list. In exchange for spellcasting, whenever you would have gained spells you instead gain a new bardic performance (in addition to the ones normally gained by the bard class), you can choose the performances from the various racial substitution levels or ACFs in the splatbooks.
Alternatively you could grant the bard passive auras like those used by Marshals and Dragon Shamans. That way you are still buffing the party without having to expand your own actions.

[Morbis Meh]

A great prestige class is seeker of the song, you lose casting but get new song abilities a nd the ability to combine songs (sing two at once). It's located in complete arcane but if that doesn't fly your kite then you can look at the virtuoso Peculiar. I also recommend picking up song of growth and also you must take Doomspeak from champions of ruin, your wizard will love you for it (though you need ranks in intimidate which is usually obtained as a class skill through the feat Martial study:Devoted Spirit). Haunting melodymelody from heroeathe if horror is also pretty stellar as well.

[Tyger]

First off, what sources?

Second thing, I am wondering why such a highly optimized (and completely broken WBL) DM PC would be used in a game for new players? Don't get me wrong, I loves me them bards, but showing new players how awesome DnD is (a commendable goal in and of itself) by not letting them shine on their own merits seems like it might be a bit counter-intuitive.

Why not just go with a standard bard, ready to back up whoever needs it? Warrriors are getting gooned? Wade into combat. Wizard is out of spells, or maybe doesn't see the versatility of a particular spell, bust out with the arcane. Cleric is out of healing and buffing awesomeness - help out a little with that.

A truly optimized bard, like you're proposing, is just going to show them how good their characters are while you are there. Let them shine a bit on their own first, and step in only when they actually need it, and only enough to help them get by.

Full disclosure, I am never in favor of a DM PC, so I am a bit jaded there.

If that is your plan, I would say that in no way shape or form is an extra feat, or even a bunch of extra feats, compensation for losing spell casting. Why not play a rogue or barbarian and go into Warrior Skald (Races of Faerun) which gets (pretty much) full bardic music abilities? No casting, and bingo Bardic Music.

EDIT: Reading comprehension fail on my part. Ignore struckthrough text and it is my suggestion, or read that part and laugh at my epic reading fail.

[Human Paragon 3]

Give him the Virtuoso's bardic music list in addition to his own, and add the "PC Expert's" (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/genericClasses.htm#expert) bonus feat list and progression as a class feature. Add +cha/day uses of bardic music.

That should do you for usefulness, giving you stuff to do all the time.

[ExemplarofAvg]

So the DM is on board with a bard with no spellcasting and is working with you on this?...

Yeah, I've explained that I plan to play music but go and fight when needed.
So will look at:
ACFs
Subs
As for auras My DM dislikes the auras, something about the ability to switch auras quickly he didn't like... My bad. Dragon Shaman was fun though.



A great prestige class is seeker of the song, you lose casting but get new song abilities a nd the ability to combine songs (sing two at once)...

Do you need casting to enter either? I know they and Foculahan Lyrist are like the ultimate bard classes but despite that I dontm know much about them This is my second time with bard. First was a Goliath Bardbarian where my casting was null.

Will look at:
Seeker of the Song
Virtuoso
Song of Growth, Enlarge through song?
Doom speak, it does?
Martial Study: Devoted Spirit, what to choose for stances/maneuvers in think I know what the feat does, but not quite sure.
Haunting Melody from my memory is about fear!


First off, what sources?
Why not play a rogue or barbarian and go into Warrior Skald (Races of Faerun) which gets (pretty much) full bardic music abilities? No casting, and bingo Bardic Music.

EDIT: Reading comprehension fail on my part. Ignore struckthrough text and it is my suggestion, or read that part and laugh at my epic reading fail.

No real sources just looking for no spell options. And I've never been much for spells. Skald? That'd be nice. And it's cool. It happens.


Give him the Virtuoso's bardic music list in addition to his own, and add the "PC Expert's" (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/genericClasses.htm#expert) bonus feat list and progression as a class feature. Add +cha/day uses of bardic music.

That should do you for usefulness, giving you stuff to do all the time.

So 2 votes for Virtuoso, good sign. And a second vote for feats so yay. And doesn't that break the listing of Bardic music as not more perday per level.... But then again the class is already missing stuff.... So.....

[Morbis Meh]

Will saveDoomspeak gives a -10 penalty on all saves, ability checks and attack for one round and it used up bardic music attempts. Song of growth is actually music of growth and at a second glance it isn't that good so I would switch that out for lingering so g (doubles duration of bardic music ). Seeker of the song doesn't require any spell casting just skill focus(performance) and a few skills.

Edit: the maneuver you want is probably crusader strike and as a bonus the feat grants you the schools key skill as a class skill and devoted spirit"s is intimidate. Haunting melody allows you to cause enemies within a 30ft Rad or become shaken if they fail the will save.

[Bloodgruve]

Drop spells

Each new spell level gain 1d6 Sneak Attack

-or-

Gain a bonus feat each time you'd gain a gain a spell level.

-or-

Don't use spells but use spell slots for Arcane Strike'n or something.

I would personally run a core bard but be stingy on spells, don't cast unless you're in dire need of an escape or something. Any experienced player can overshadow a new player regardless of class. Show um what a caster is capable of ;)

GL
Blood~

[Qwertystop]

I say give some of the ACF songs (and feat-granted songs) for free at certain levels.

[ExemplarofAvg]

Will saveDoomspeak gives a -10 penalty on all saves, ability checks and attack for one round and it used up bardic music attempts. Song of growth is actually music of growth and at a second glance it isn't that good so I would switch that out for lingering so g (doubles duration of bardic music ). Seeker of the song doesn't require any spell casting just skill focus(performance) and a few skills.

Edit: the maneuver you want is probably crusader strike and as a bonus the feat grants you the schools key skill as a class skill and devoted spirit"s is intimidate. Haunting melody allows you to cause enemies within a 30ft Rad or become shaken if they fail the will save.

-10..to those... Umm that's really good. I'm just looking for something to replace spells. My character is going to be that guy that kind of follows them and sits underneath a tree strumming his lute while the party slays boars in th forest. Since most are just as long as you play, +6 rounds with the Echoblade. So duration is a nonissue. That's good, skill focus is meh, but I can deal. I've thought bards bringing fear being, I dunno Dirgesinger territory. And roger that.

[Qwertystop]

-10..to those... Umm that's really good. I'm just looking for something to replace spells. My character is going to be that guy that kind of follows them and sits underneath a tree strumming his lute while the party slays boars in th forest. Since most are just as long as you play, +6 rounds with the Echoblade. So duration is a nonissue. That's good, skill focus is meh, but I can deal. I've thought bards bringing fear being, I dunno Dirgesinger territory. And roger that.

There's a feat (Lingering Song) that changes the time duration-based songs last from 1 round after you stop playing to 1 minute. You can start your Inspire Courage on Round 1 of combat, then stop and do something else, and it'll last the whole time.

Much better than an Echoblade.

[Treblain]

Inspire Courage normally lasts five rounds. Echoblade has pretty much the same effect as Lingering Song, right?

[onemorelurker]

Inspire Courage normally lasts five rounds. Echoblade has pretty much the same effect as Lingering Song, right?

The problem with a harmonizing weapon is that if you start a second BM, it switches over, where Lingering Song keeps going even if you start a second one. So I guess it depends on the way the OP wants to play: buying a +1 weapon enhancement is better than spending a feat when only using one song at a time, but if you want two songs going at once, a harmonizing weapon won't cut it.

[kulosle]

Drop spells

Each new spell level gain 1d6 Sneak Attack

-or-

Gain a bonus feat each time you'd gain a gain a spell level.


Blood~

Even if you did both of those it wouldn't add up. That would be only 5d6 sneak attack and 5 feats. Definitely not as good as spells especially when the splat books have been so kind to bards. Snow song for the win.

My suggestion is to keep you spells for if you need them and just use arcane strike a lot. Also isn't there a feat or something that lets you expend spells to help your bardic music?

But if you are dead set on doing so then I agree with Human Paragon 3's suggestion.

[ExemplarofAvg]

The problem with a harmonizing weapon is that if you start a second BM, it switches over, where Lingering Song keeps going even if you start a second one. So I guess it depends on the way the OP wants to play: buying a +1 weapon enhancement is better than spending a feat when only using one song at a time, but if you want two songs going at once, a harmonizing weapon won't cut it.

OP wants to Dual wield Echoblades while Dragonfire Inspirationing guys to death, while singing "we didn't start the fire" the game starts at Lvl 6, Inspire Courage will be the combat music of Choice.


Even if you did both of those it wouldn't add up. That would be only 5d6 sneak attack and 5 feats. Definitely not as good as spells especially when the splat books have been so kind to bards. Snow song for the win.

My suggestion is to keep you spells for if you need them and just use arcane strike a lot. Also isn't there a feat or something that lets you expend spells to help your bardic music?

But if you are dead set on doing so then I agree with Human Paragon 3's suggestion.

Thank you, I quite liked his suggestion as well. And should the game stretch to double digit levels I am definitely taking Seeker of the Song. Which means that he'll get some of the Virtuoso's early abilities. Three levels to be exact. So fascinate x2, persuasive song, sustaining song.


On another note I'm definitely going to be playing the master of this character sometime, the one who first told him about the primal music but didn't follow it himself. As a Bard 7/Virtuoso 1/Sublime Chord 2/Virtuoso +9/Bard or Sublime Chord +1. With Melodic Casting. A patient whimsical fellow (Half-Elf) as compared to the rock and roll guy before.

[Human Paragon 3]

Woo!

It's always gratifying when somebody takes my suggestions.

[Zaq]

I'm thinking that replacing spells with White Raven maneuvers would be a net loss, but still make an acceptable character.

[ExemplarofAvg]

I'm thinking that replacing spells with White Raven maneuvers would be a net loss, but still make an acceptable character.

Any idea of the progression?

I like the Song of the White Raven, :p

[Telonius]

I'm thinking that replacing spells with White Raven maneuvers would be a net loss, but still make an acceptable character.

White Raven occurred to me as well. (My first thought was: "Cross out the word Crusader, write in the word Bard, and put Perform on the list of class skills").

If you do still want to have the actual song progression, I'd say that the Crusader progression would be decent. If you're only getting one discipline, you don't need Swordsage or Warblade progression. But it needs something else besides. If you're only giving him access to White Raven, and no other discipline, that's more than a bit limiting. Especially as compensation for losing something as powerful as spell levels.

Maybe some bonus Skill Tricks (Complete Scoundrel) every couple of levels? A Bardic Knowledge check to emulate the Archivist's Dark Knowledge? Either of those would be thematic, and probably bump it close to a high Tier 4/very low Tier 3.

[Qwertystop]

Throw in a few extra kinds of songs (for free) as well, and it might be just a mildly low T3.

Stuff like the various Fascinates for normally-immune creature types, or the alternate Inspirations (like Dragonfire Inspiration).

[ExemplarofAvg]

I thought Feats+White Raven seemed like a Nice enough idea.

[Qwertystop]

I thought Feats+White Raven seemed like a Nice enough idea.

Definitely. That doesn't mean it's enough to make up for spells on it's own.

[ExemplarofAvg]

Definitely. That doesn't mean it's enough to make up for spells on it's own.

As a Lvl 6 character it might.

[Leon]

Dark Sun Bard - At 6th level in addition to the Music and Knowledge abilities has:
Smuggler (+1 Bonus to Bluff & Sleight of Hand, every odd level it increases)
Poison Use
Street Smart (+2 Bonus to Gather Info and Intimidate)
Quickdraw feat
Trade Secret (choose from a list of useful things)
Mental Resistance (+2 Morale Bonus on Saves Vs Enchantment/Charm spells & Telepathic powers)
Quick Thinking (+2 Bonus to Imitative, stacks with any others)

[Lonely Tylenol]

Consider the Bardic feats as bonus songs when you'd normally be able to get them. Inspire Spellpower, Doomspeak, Dragonfire Inspiration, Ironskin Chant, and Warning Shout all have some uses.

[Fouredged Sword]

I would go ahead and grant the marshal's aura progression and then some light TOB. Lets say...

Warblade progression, but with devoted spirit, setting sun, and white raven. As a recovery method make it so you recover all readied maneuvers whenever you make a DC 20 perform weapon drill check on a round you don't use a strike, counter, or boost. If you don't have an ability that requires a preform check you may do so as a standard action.

[ExemplarofAvg]

Dark Sun Bard - At 6th level in addition to the Music and Knowledge abilities has:
Smuggler (+1 Bonus to Bluff & Sleight of Hand, every odd level it increases)
Poison Use
Street Smart (+2 Bonus to Gather Info and Intimidate)
Quickdraw feat
Trade Secret (choose from a list of useful things)
Mental Resistance (+2 Morale Bonus on Saves Vs Enchantment/Charm spells & Telepathic powers)
Quick Thinking (+2 Bonus to Imitative, stacks with any others)

Ease of Access Source?

[Tokuhara]

My 2c:

My players often use bard as a "Warlord" alternative. Our DM thought of this:

Skald/Commander (depending on fluff)

What you lose as Bard: Spellcasting

What You Get:

Full BAB
Saves as a Savage Bard
Auras as a Marshal
Lay on Hands as a Paladin
Banner (?) ability of Cavalier

Reasoning: It plays to a more Martial "Bard" who acts as a commander, leading troops into combat

And our houserule is no class except for Paladins have alignment restrictions

[Leon]

Ease of Access Source?

http://athas.org/products/ds3

3rd PDF on the page

[ExemplarofAvg]

However this may all end up be rendered moot if the mood strikes me to play a shapeshifter variant Druid with Barbarian Rage (and all that comes with it) rather than spells. Kind of like some Animal Power Ranger. It's mentioned only because that's the only other recent dnd idea I've had. I even think there's a class or something on the boards like it too.

[imneuromancer]

A spell-less bard is called a Rogue with the "Educated" feat so that they get knowledge skills on their skill list.

[Leon]

a Rogue with a feat doesn't have the Music and Knowledge that are pretty well central to what a bard is.

[ExemplarofAvg]

a Rogue with a feat doesn't have the Music and Knowledge that are pretty well central to what a bard is.

This man does kind of have a point, Bards, y'know, music and stuff is their schtick. Rogue's are nice, they do what they do well. But somehow "TRALALALALALA I'M GOING TO sneak, sneak, SNEAK ATTACK AYOOOOOUUUUUUUUUUU" Just may not be the best order of assassination, or possibly the best Order ever(Screw you Illuminati), other than order 66, of course. They had it coming >:)

P.s. Before anyone sees this I'm gonna ask no railroading, I know I laid the tracks but I am on worse then no sleep. Words are a miracle to me right now.

[Leon]

The one occasion where stealth was essential and the bard was with the party we were inspired to do well by a moonlit Shadow Play (the DM was not so impressed by the bards resourcefulness to the situation at hand)

[ExemplarofAvg]

The one occasion where stealth was essential and the bard was with the party we were inspired to do well by a moonlit Shadow Play (the DM was not so impressed by the bards resourcefulness to the situation at hand)

Haha, I love shadow plays, did it include actual shadows.

[imneuromancer]

a Rogue with a feat doesn't have the Music and Knowledge that are pretty well central to what a bard is.

Rogues have perform as a class skill. They can get knowledge skills through various feats. Especially if they have a lot of INT and CHA, they can be almost as good as bards in persuasion (esp. if the bard has no spells).

What you LOSE in this method is the bardic voice buffs (meh). What you GAIN are skill points, being decent at combat (i.e. sneak attack), trapfinding, evasion, etc.

So yeah, if I wanted to make a spell-less bard I would totally go the charismatic rogue w/perform(singing) route, plus "educated" and knowledge skills, if I felt like it.

(actually, I should work out if a rogue + wizard + arcane trickster would actually be a better bard than a bard with spells.... interesting....)

[ExemplarofAvg]

Rogues have perform as a class skill. They can get knowledge skills through various feats. Especially if they have a lot of INT and CHA, they can be almost as good as bards in persuasion (esp. if the bard has no spells).

What you LOSE in this method is the bardic voice buffs (meh). What you GAIN are skill points, being decent at combat (i.e. sneak attack), trapfinding, evasion, etc.

So yeah, if I wanted to make a spell-less bard I would totally go the charismatic rogue w/perform(singing) route, plus "educated" and knowledge skills, if I felt like it.

(actually, I should work out if a rogue + wizard + arcane trickster would actually be a better bard than a bard with spells.... interesting....)

But it's a Rogue, not a Bard. Also Rogue+Wizard+Arcane Trickster, better than a regular Bard? Hmm, somehow Glibness disagrees with that. I prefer (if being a caster) Bard 6/Lyric Thaumaturge 4 /Sublime Chord 2/Virtuoso 8
With Thaumaturge boosting Bard and Virtuoso boosting Sublime Chord. That's spell worthy. and uses Bard Prestige Classes. I prefer my Rogues Acrobatic, Swan Diving Sneak Attacks, I Ezio'd before Altair. :P

[Leon]

No actual shadows just the Moon, Hands and a willing audience.

Glibness, oh glibness. Good times good times.

Being decent in combat (i know bards can be good at it) is not really what the bard is best at - being decent at a number of things with the musical support options for the group are what make the class so good.

Any class can call itself a "bard" but not truly be the same as the actual class.

[imneuromancer]

But it's a Rogue, not a Bard. Also Rogue+Wizard+Arcane Trickster, better than a regular Bard? Hmm, somehow Glibness disagrees with that. I prefer (if being a caster) Bard 6/Lyric Thaumaturge 4 /Sublime Chord 2/Virtuoso 8
With Thaumaturge boosting Bard and Virtuoso boosting Sublime Chord. That's spell worthy. and uses Bard Prestige Classes. I prefer my Rogues Acrobatic, Swan Diving Sneak Attacks, I Ezio'd before Altair. :P

Who cares what the class name is, play a rogue like a bard and call yourself a bard, if you want.

Especially if the bard is spell-less, then all you are saying is "hey, I know lots of stuff and I can sing real good"

[ExemplarofAvg]

Who cares what the class name is, play a rogue like a bard and call yourself a bard, if you want.

Especially if the bard is spell-less, then all you are saying is "hey, I know lots of stuff and I can sing real good"

This is most humorous to me because on the last page I voiced that I was going to enter seeker of the song. Which requires bardic music ability. Hence why I need Bard not Rogue. No matter how "well" you may sing. You can't enter the prestige class without bardic music ability. It does not require arcane casting nor does it improve it. Thus why a Spellless bard is a desirable option.

[imneuromancer]

This is most humorous to me because on the last page I voiced that I was going to enter seeker of the song. Which requires bardic music ability. Hence why I need Bard not Rogue. No matter how "well" you may sing. You can't enter the prestige class without bardic music ability. It does not require arcane casting nor does it improve it. Thus why a Spellless bard is a desirable option.

OK, fair enough, if there is a particular thing you were looking for a particular build, then cool. I didn't notice the requirement in OP. My comment was more directed at the idea that you don't have to take a particlar CLASS to have a particular ROLE, if that makes any sense.

[ExemplarofAvg]

OK, fair enough, if there is a particular thing you were looking for a particular build, then cool. I didn't notice the requirement in OP. My comment was more directed at the idea that you don't have to take a particlar CLASS to have a particular ROLE, if that makes any sense.

It does and it doesn't. In a "A Rogue can be an Assassin, but it can't be a wizard" way it does. But a Bard is more than it's Perform Skill. That's all I'm getting at.

[IdleMuse]

You can play a spell-less Bard by using the Warrior Skald PrC from Races of Faerun. Due to the wording of the Bardic Music ability on Warrior Skald, this actually means you can get all of the Bardic Music effects from Bard with solely the Perform rank prereqs, no class levels needed, meaning you can dip into it as any class and get an awesome Bard flavour without much deviation from other, level-intensive builds (such as ToB classes).

You could also use one of the couple of different ways of getting Paladin to act like a Bard, if that's something cohesive to your build.

EDIT:

I just had a dig around in my characters folder and found this build that I did a while ago which fits this concept (fairly cheesy though - Favoured+Primary Contact entry cheese).

Bardic attack buffer. GOLIATH (LA +1)

Paladin 5/Warrior Skald 1/Dawncaller 10/Dragonsong Lyrist 3

1| FS2S, Favoured, Primary Contact
3| Power Attack
4(b)| Cleave
6| Devoted Performer
9| Song of the Heart
12| Lingering Song
15| Dragonsong
18| Words of Creation

Ideally this means you pump +12 atk and dmg
Also, +18 BAB (lose one from Lyrist, one from LA)

Paladin takes
- Lion Legionnaire (AoC->Firemane Aura, TU->Wild Fighting, Mount->Flying Lion)
- Holy Warrior (Spells->Feats)

FS2S is From Smite To Song, a feat that lets you inspire courage with a smite attempt, and more importantly adds Perform to the Paladin skill list. Lion Legionnaire is mostly just for coolness factor.

If you have a lenient DM, they may let you take some of the awesome Bard ACFs instead of your Warrior Skald-granted basic bardic songs, although IMO this isn't RAW, hence not being in this build.

If you don't wanna be a Goliath, I guess one could replace Dawncaller with War Chanter in this build pretty much exactly, for a different song set.

Anyway, I just thought I'd share :smallamused: I have all these builds kicking around, I might as well post some of them where it's relevent.

EDIT: As pointed out by others above, Lingering Song is probably better replaced with an Echoblade if they're available.

[Greyfeld85]

Personally, I rather like going Warblade 1/Bard 2/Warblade +3, then pick up Song of the White Raven. The two levels in Bard give you a bit of a boost to your Will/Ref saves, you hit level 1 spells, and you get all the goodies that come with going deep into the Warblade class while still getting your regular boosts to Inspire Courage.

Alternately, you could go Crusader instead and play a more support role.

[ExemplarofAvg]

Personally, I rather like going Warblade 1/Bard 2/Warblade +3, then pick up Song of the White Raven. The two levels in Bard give you a bit of a boost to your Will/Ref saves, you hit level 1 spells, and you get all the goodies that come with going deep into the Warblade class while still getting your regular boosts to Inspire Courage.

Alternately, you could go Crusader instead and play a more support role.

It'd be a Support/Secondary Melee if anything.