Can intelligent undead be brought back to life, need they be willing?

[hushblade]

Such as via a true Resurrection spell? Need they be willing since the reason it says a dead recipient of the spell must be willing is that his soul is not willing to come back to this realm, but a resurrection spell could simply force life upon the body, and the soul would have no choice. Am I right in these assumptions?

[lorddrake]

Such as via a true Resurrection spell? Need they be willing since the reason it says a dead recipient of the spell must be willing is that his soul is not willing to come back to this realm, but a resurrection spell could simply force life upon the body, and the soul would have no choice. Am I right in these assumptions?

Well. Since the spell designed to create undead is descripted (I think in the Libris Mortis) to bind a negative energy spirit in the unliving body, it does not need to be willing. I may be wrong.

Also, true ressurection will bring the living form, not the unliving. Just to be clear on that one.

[mabriss lethe]

There is also a resurrection variant on the spell list in.... either Libris Mortis, Heroes of Horror, or Spell Compendium. I can't remember which. Works just like its normal counterpart, except it returns the remains of a destroyed undead to unlife.

[kudosmog]

I believe Revive undead from Libris Mortis does this.
page 71? It's in the spells section.

I believe the soul would have to be willing, since it's an intelligent creature.

[Jack_Simth]

Such as via a true Resurrection spell? Need they be willing since the reason it says a dead recipient of the spell must be willing is that his soul is not willing to come back to this realm, but a resurrection spell could simply force life upon the body, and the soul would have no choice. Am I right in these assumptions?
If you're DMing, yes, because you said it is so. If you're trying to go by strict RAW, the answer is "reply hazy, ask your DM".

See, there's a clause in the undead type (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/typesSubtypes.htm#undeadType):
Not affected by raise dead and reincarnate spells or abilities. Resurrection and true resurrection can affect undead creatures. These spells turn undead creatures back into the living creatures they were before becoming undead.

The fuzzy bit? The question of "is this a case of specific-trumps-general, and the clause in the undead type overrides the normal function of Resurrection and True Resurrection (similar to how a Golem's Magic Immunity causes certain spells to act wonky, like how the Clay Golem (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/golem.htm#clayGolem), can be targeted by the area spell "move earth" to have bad things happen to the Clay Golem), or does it follow the normal rules for Resurrection and True Resurrection?"

If it follows the normal rules of Resurrection and True Resurrection, then yes, the original soul of the undead creature must be willing for the spell to have an effect, and the lich laughs at you if you land the spell on him (he became a lich by choice, he doesn't want to go back). If it's a case of specific-trumps-general, then when you land the spell on the lich, the lich becomes a living person again, losing all the benefits of the lich template, and the lich has no choice in the matter.

[teslas]

I wouldn't use a lich in your example there.

Their situation is even more complicated because their soul is located in their phylactery. Moving it out by a mere mortal spell after what it takes to put it in there is up to your DM, but is probably not as easy as a True Resurrection--even if, for some ungodly reason, the lich is willing.


Regardless, I'd say the non-mindless undead would have to be willing for any of that to happen. Furthermore, the proper route as far as I can find for returning an undead creature to unlife, RAW (not including the book of bad latin), would be to return them to actual life, then kill them, then bring their fresh remains to unlife by the normal means, whatever that may be.

Sort of convoluted, evil, and would probably only work against insane or oddly evil creatures.

[ClothedInVelvet]

If I understand correctly, raising unintelligent undead doesn't affect the soul that was previously attached to the body.

Further, as Lorddrake pointed out, an intelligent undead is a combination of a negative energy spirit and a dead corpse. I don't think that is typically the original soul either.

So I would rule that true resurrection, as per its description, would push out the negative energy spirit and invite the original soul back in. I would probably rule that the intelligent undead is destroyed (by the negative energy spirit being pushed out), but the original soul has to be willing to come back in order for it to be restored to life.

A lich is another matter entirely, and unless you need to know about a lich specifically, I'll contain my speculation to standard intelligent undead.

[hushblade]

Lets just use the specific example of a necropolitan.

[Snowbluff]

AFB right now, but I am sure there is a Raise Undead spell specifaclly used for that sort of thing.

[Jack_Simth]

Well. Since the spell designed to create undead is descripted (I think in the Libris Mortis) to bind a negative energy spirit in the unliving body, it does not need to be willing. I may be wrong.It only sort-of says that. Libris Mortis, page 5: "Below are some of the more widely accepted theories about the origins of this affliction." - and then it proceeds with five different sections, yes, one of which has that as an option... and also includes a bit about the original soul being trapped and corrupted. That section is essentially "options for the DM", not "This is the way it is."

Really, the specific nature of undeath isn't specified in RAW beyond the specific mechanics of the creatures and the spells that produce them, and a handful of funny interactions (e.g., True Resurrection doesn't require any piece of the body to work... but if the corpse is shambling about as a skeleton in someone's closet, True Resurrection fails... unless you first destroy the skeleton (this is spelled out in True Resurrection), or you apply the True Resurrection spell directly to the skeleton (this is spelled out in the undead type). While there are some holes in the hypothesis (nothing in D&D is fully consistent), the fluff of the original soul being dragged back by necromancy and imprisoned in a cage of rotting flesh to power the undead creature is about 98% supported by the mechanics of the game.

[hamishspence]

Just because someone can't be Raised, or Ressurected, doesn't mean their soul is destroyed- Complete Divine goes into this in more detail on pages 125-130. The reason people sometimes don't respond to resurrection magic after a barghest has killed them, is that their soul is "too damaged to return to life"- but it's still there in the afterlife.

The ones for which it's specified that the soul is present, are ghosts, people killed by undead with a spawn ability and brought back as spawn, and the souls of people who die in certain specific ways, like madness (allips) being destroyed by absolute evil (bodaks) and so on.

In the "spawn" case, it states the soul is "trapped in a body animated by negative energy and controlled by a malign intelligence".

[Jack_Simth]

Just because someone can't be Raised, or Ressurected, doesn't mean their soul is destroyed- Complete Divine goes into this in more detail on pages 125-130. The reason people sometimes don't respond to resurrection magic after a barghest has killed them, is that their soul is "too damaged to return to life"- but it's still there in the afterlife.

I said "Trapped", not "Destroyed". Bit of a difference, there.

Seriously, though: Animate dead is the lowest-level spell that prevents Resurrection, and True Resurrection... unless you first destroy the undead (destroy the trap, and the soul is free to return), or unless you apply Resurrection or True Resurrection directly to the animated corpse (the soul is RIGHT THERE).

A "Trapped soul" interpretation with undead in general is about 98% consistent with the mechanics. How else are you going to explain the [Evil] descriptor on every spell that produces them (except for followers of a particular path, but that's neither here nor there), and that True Resurrection (which doesn't require a portion of the corpse) fails if the bones are walking around somewhere, but works again if you de-animate the bones first, or if you apply the spell directly to the shambling corpse?


The ones for which it's specified that the soul is present, are ghosts, people killed by undead with a spawn ability and brought back as spawn, and the souls of people who die in certain specific ways, like madness (allips) being destroyed by absolute evil (bodaks) and so on.

In the "spawn" case, it states the soul is "trapped in a body animated by negative energy and controlled by a malign intelligence".
OK, so a few of them are even specified that way.

[hamishspence]

The Trap the Soul and Soul Bind spells don't have the [evil] tag- but the Imprison Soul spell (Heroes of Horror) does.

The line
"this being is not truly inhabited by the spirit of the original creature, which has left to seek out its ultimate destiny on in the Outer Planes. This amalgamation is something entirely new."

in the "Atrocity Calls to Unlife" section of the Undead Origins descriptions in Libris Mortis (page 7), does counter the "soul is always trapped" theory- but that might be rationalized by the choice of "spirit" rather than "soul".

[Jack_Simth]

The Trap the Soul and Soul Bind spells don't have the [evil] tag- but the Imprison Soul spell (Heroes of Horror) does.

There's a significant difference between putting someone on ice in suspended animation (most people would not say the police are evil when they put someone away), and trapping them in a prison of rotting flesh that goes about as a slave (most mindless undead, but also assorted spawn) or walking around trapped in a critter that goes about destroying things willy-nilly.


The line
"this being is not truly inhabited by the spirit of the original creature, which has left to seek out its ultimate destiny on in the Outer Planes. This amalgamation is something entirely new."

in the "Atrocity Calls to Unlife" section of the Undead Origins descriptions in Libris Mortis (page 7), does counter the "soul is always trapped" theory- but that might be rationalized by the choice of "spirit" rather than "soul".
First, look down a bit at the "Other times" the next line down. Or, look at the context, and go up two pages to page 5. Libris Mortis is quite explicit that this isn't "the way it is" so much as that it's one of several theories of undead.

And you still don't appear to have attempted an answer to the question "why does True Resurrection, which does not require a piece of the corpse at all, fail if the bones are walking around elsewhere, but work just fine if the bones are destroyed, or if the spell is applied directly to the bones?"

[hamishspence]

It is a little odd.

One could handle it by having the "animate dead" spell somehow block the return of a soul from the Outer Planes.

[Jack_Simth]

It is a little odd.

One could handle it by having the "animate dead" spell somehow block the return of a soul from the Outer Planes.
As well as every other method of becoming undead? Animate Dead, Create Undead, Create Greater undead, the assorted spawning undead, feats like Fell Animate, the clause in too many negative levels, and so on?

To do that, you basically have to postulate some form of Universally Unique Identification tag, and say that an undead uses the same UUID... and even that breaks down when someone points out that applying the spell directly to the animate corpse works ... and then the term of "soul" vs. the term of "UUID" becomes little more than a game of semantics.

Meanwhile, "every undead traps the original soul to be tortured for power" covers the Resurrection issue, the True Resurrection issue, explains the [Evil] tag, and so on. Sure, there's a few holes... but it covers about 98% of the mechanics, give or take, and the remaining 2% can be covered fairly easily with a few simple house rules.

[hamishspence]

It's only skeletons and zombies that people seem to want to try and justify. Maybe because they're the only "mindless" undead- were Neutral in every edition prior to 3.5, and are Unaligned in 4E.

[Coidzor]

While there are some holes in the hypothesis (nothing in D&D is fully consistent), the fluff of the original soul being dragged back by necromancy and imprisoned in a cage of rotting flesh to power the undead creature is about 98% supported by the mechanics of the game.

Really. The fact that the corpse left behind when you go with reincarnate or True Resurrection can be animated into an undead no problem and without inconveniencing the BSF is only 2%, eh?