Rogue Trader Queries

[shadow_archmagi]

1. How do achievement points and objective points work? It seems like they're just something to help the DM keep track of how far along the players are, but then you get feats and equipment that say "+50 Achievement Points when exploring!" Does that mean the plot just progresses faster for them, or are there concrete bonuses players get for accumulating achievement points?

2. There's a pair of techpriest ability (Luminen Charge and Electrical Succor?) that appear to allow for an infinite loop. One of them lets him use his bodily energy to charge a battery, and he only becomes fatigued if he fails a check. Another lets him absorb electricity and make a check to remove his fatigue, with more fatigue removed based on his success. I realize that as GM I can just kick the player in the shins if he tries this, but I'd like to see if the loop is even valid because I'm a rules lawyer at heart.

3. Are careers and ranks a prereq for talents/skills? I still don't completely understand the class system, but it looks like the primary benefit of ranking up is access to new talents/skills. I'm just a little confused because I haven't seen "Must be a Rank 5 Explorator" written on any of the talents.

EDIT

4. Do ships explicitly *need* a Cargo Bay to hold cargo? I don't see any rules regarding how much they can carry, and the cargo bays themselves just say they grant bonus progress on Trade missions.

[Daisuke1133]

The reason that skills and talents show no rank prerequisites is because different careers potentially gain access to a particular talent at different ranks, if they gain access at all outside of an Elite Advance. Regular advances are limited to what is on a career's advance scheme, and a character has access to those advances that are equal or lower to their current rank.

With regards to the Explorator's Mechanicus Implants: that sounds legal, though I will admit I'm not incredibly knowledgeable about AdMech characters.

[The Glyphstone]

The 'infinite loop' is valid, and not really that useful either. The only 'broken' thing you can do with it is have infinite las-weapon ammo, and you're a Rogue Trader crew, you buy laspacks by the truckload out of your pocket change.

If you want it to be a non-infinite, just assume that the energy you drain from a power pack is equivalent to the amount you charged it with.

[shadow_archmagi]

The 'infinite loop' is valid, and not really that useful either. The only 'broken' thing you can do with it is have infinite las-weapon ammo, and you're a Rogue Trader crew, you buy laspacks by the truckload out of your pocket change.

I was actually thinking in terms of abusing special abilities that have Fatigue as a downside.

[The Glyphstone]

I was actually thinking in terms of abusing special abilities that have Fatigue as a downside.

How many of those do Explorators have?

[Daisuke1133]

Three, and there's a talent that negates the Fatigue gain on all of them anyway. So worries over the infinite loop are a tad redundant.

[shadow_archmagi]

So, achievements and cargo? Same for Barracks, I guess, since Barracks are listed as just giving a bonus in combat missions

[Beleriphon]

So, achievements and cargo? Same for Barracks, I guess, since Barracks are listed as just giving a bonus in combat missions

Achievments, no idea. Cargo can be stuck anywhere, including the captain's cabin, a cargo hold gives a bonus because its specifically designed to hold cargo and organize it. Same deal for a barracks, but with troops.

[king.com]

So, achievements and cargo? Same for Barracks, I guess, since Barracks are listed as just giving a bonus in combat missions

Achievement points are these theoretically great ideas for the GM to add values to ever single action the players take towards successfully achieving their endevor. At the end of the adventure you tally up all the achievement points and assign addition XP or Profit Factor based upon your own preset requirements of these achievement points.

Given how I've never planned an entire adventure step by step like this...I've never used achievement points unless the players speceficlly get something which take advantage of it, and then I only give some bonus XP/profit based on what I think is reasonable.

Every space ship has some kind of cargo capacity (just as ever ship has a hanger bay and some support craft), a Cargo Hold is a large scale version of these various storage compartments designed to transport things in bulk. Think trade route level operations, constantly shipping tonne after tonne of supplies or weapons deal. Rogue Trader is not about hard values mostly, its about such large quantities of items that its below the Players to both keeping track of it (thats for the 10,000+ crew to deal with). A cargo hold lets you actively participate in a trade contract, were your ship is going to actually be the ship capable of running a trade route, transporting X units of supplies. As a GM you can either make up a random number or simply dismiss it as part of contractual negiotiations that goes on between Seneschals.

The Barracks offers the ship a compliment of active soldiers. While it is true that every vessel is likely to contain large numbers of armed crewmen and small percentage of naval security forces a Barracks allows a standing army to exist, with training programs, military hardware (heavy weapons and vehicles) and a physical group the players can use Acquisition checks to improve.

[shadow_archmagi]

Achievement points are these theoretically great ideas for the GM to add values to ever single action the players take towards successfully achieving their endevor. At the end of the adventure you tally up all the achievement points and assign addition XP or Profit Factor based upon your own preset requirements of these achievement points.

Given how I've never planned an entire adventure step by step like this...I've never used achievement points unless the players speceficlly get something which take advantage of it, and then I only give some bonus XP/profit based on what I think is reasonable.

Every space ship has some kind of cargo capacity (just as ever ship has a hanger bay and some support craft), a Cargo Hold is a large scale version of these various storage compartments designed to transport things in bulk. Think trade route level operations, constantly shipping tonne after tonne of supplies or weapons deal. Rogue Trader is not about hard values mostly, its about such large quantities of items that its below the Players to both keeping track of it (thats for the 10,000+ crew to deal with). A cargo hold lets you actively participate in a trade contract, were your ship is going to actually be the ship capable of running a trade route, transporting X units of supplies. As a GM you can either make up a random number or simply dismiss it as part of contractual negiotiations that goes on between Seneschals.

The Barracks offers the ship a compliment of active soldiers. While it is true that every vessel is likely to contain large numbers of armed crewmen and small percentage of naval security forces a Barracks allows a standing army to exist, with training programs, military hardware (heavy weapons and vehicles) and a physical group the players can use Acquisition checks to improve.

Okay. I wondered about that. Weird that they'd abstract it in that way, though. "Instead of worrying about cargo, we'll just let the DM add ten percent to those numbers he totally rolled up ahead of time."

Good to know about the hangar and support craft; I'm assuming these are like the Star Trek shuttles rather than TIE fighters, right?

[king.com]

Okay. I wondered about that. Weird that they'd abstract it in that way, though. "Instead of worrying about cargo, we'll just let the DM add ten percent to those numbers he totally rolled up ahead of time."

Good to know about the hangar and support craft; I'm assuming these are like the Star Trek shuttles rather than TIE fighters, right?

Yea the Achievement system only works in premade scenarios, best way to treat it is give a bigger reward or a nicer contract to players who seek out these kind of endevours.

When it comes to support craft, theres a vast array of things that could be available, as opposed to singular star trek type deals. Think more like a Star Destroyer hanger bay (except without the numbers to field complete squadrons). They have massive bulk transports, smaller squad sized transports (think tydirium shuttles) such as the Aquila Lander, personal combat fighter craft like the Imperial Lightning (your TIE fighter). Theres also bombers, VTOLs, heavy multi-crew fighter craft, assault boats, gunships etc. The Imperium has a lot of variety and any Rogue Trader vessel is going to have a few of these hanging around. The minimum is a few Aquila Landers, a few cargo hauling vessels simply so you can transfer crew and cargo to and from planets or other large vessels.

[hamishspence]

They have massive bulk transports, smaller squad sized transports (think tydirium shuttles) such as the Aquila Lander, personal combat fighter craft like the Imperial Lightning (your TIE fighter).

Lightnings aren't really built for fighting in hard vacuum- though they're capable of making it from there to atmosphere, where they'll be more useful against enemies.

Same with Thunderbolts for that matter.

The Fury Interceptor is a closer equivalent- dedicated space fighter that can be modified for atmosphere. Has two banks of 5 lascannon each, a twin-linked prow lascannon, and missiles.

[shadow_archmagi]

How viable is running a Core Only game? I'm told that Battlefleet Koronus is a book all about spaceships, which seems like it might be a really good resource to have in a game that takes place entirely in space.

[hamishspence]

It's pretty good for- attack craft, nova cannon, torpedoes, etc (none of which are covered in core) as well as having abstract rules for ground combat (army-level).

[shadow_archmagi]

It's pretty good for- attack craft, nova cannon, torpedoes, etc (none of which are covered in core) as well as having abstract rules for ground combat (army-level).

Ah. My players rolled 60 SP and bought a Light Cruiser, and rolled the "Nose for Trouble" and "Death Cult" traits, so they've begun referring to their ship as "full of angry war"

I think I should probably prepare for space and ground combat, then. Torpedoes away! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rPsL2WVhFCc)

Actually, what's some good Rogue Trader music?

[Leon]

Anything by Immediate music, Two steps from hell or the like.

[hamishspence]

The Imperial March from Star Wars?

Perhaps the Alternate Universe intro theme music from Enterprise?

[king.com]

Lightnings aren't really built for fighting in hard vacuum- though they're capable of making it from there to atmosphere, where they'll be more useful against enemies.

Same with Thunderbolts for that matter.

The Fury Interceptor is a closer equivalent- dedicated space fighter that can be modified for atmosphere. Has two banks of 5 lascannon each, a twin-linked prow lascannon, and missiles.

Yea but a Rogue Trader vessel is going to contain a number of ground air-support craft, things like Vultures and Valkyries to make sure those landings go smoothly.


The Imperial March from Star Wars?

What should be played whenever your players exit a shuttle.

[hamishspence]

True. And they take up less space than their space counterparts- an Aeronautica squadron can be twice the size of its equivalent space attack craft, for the same capacity.

So you can fit 40 Thunderbolts into the space for 20 Furies.

[shadow_archmagi]

So, let me get this straight. The downside to using Full Auto is that it has a 2% higher chance of jamming?

I guess there's also the downside that it uses more bullets, but clips aren't exactly rare...

Is there any reason to use Semi instead of Full on a gun that has both?


EDIT: How common are critical hits in ship to ship battles? It seems like firing your macrobatteries as a Volley is almost always superior.

[shadow_archmagi]

A lot of the Rank 1 Advances appear to also be Starting Skills for the archmilitant.

IE: It looks like they start with Dodge, but can also purchase Dodge? Common Lore: War also shows up on both lists.

Likewise, Astropaths have Starting Talent: Psy Rating 2, but Psy Rating 2 is listed as costing 200 xp. What gives?

[Daisuke1133]

Okay, so were getting into some of the more advanced aspects of Character Creation.

Here is the short of it:

Books like The Inquisitor's Handbook and Into the Storm have what are called Background Packages. These are bundled collections of skills and talents that can be bought at character creation for varying amounts of the character's starting XP. Some of these packages can modify your character's starting skills or talents and even their equipment in some cases. Those redundant skill and talent choices on the advance scheme are there so that your character can still gain access to these advances with a minimum of fuss.

[shadow_archmagi]

Those redundant skill and talent choices on the advance scheme are there so that your character can still gain access to these advances with a minimum of fuss.

Oh, I see. So like, another book might have the "More Books, Less Power" alternate starting package that starts with Psy Rating 1 and an extra handful of Lore skills?

[Daisuke1133]

So, let me get this straight. The downside to using Full Auto is that it has a 2% higher chance of jamming?

I guess there's also the downside that it uses more bullets, but clips aren't exactly rare...

Is there any reason to use Semi instead of Full on a gun that has both?


EDIT: How common are critical hits in ship to ship battles? It seems like firing your macrobatteries as a Volley is almost always superior.

While ammo supplies are not rare, you can only take so much on an away mission, particularly if the GM puts a limit on how many magazines they want you taking. And weapons with full-auto can eat through ammo with surprising speed, especially if they have the Storm special quality.

Also firing full-auto on the move can be irritatingly difficult in terms of hitting without a suspensor system, and I'm fairly certain those are limited to Heavy-class ranged weapons.


Oh, I see. So like, another book might have the "More Books, Less Power" alternate starting package that starts with Psy Rating 1 and an extra handful of Lore skills?

You've got the jist of it.

[Destro_Yersul]

So, let me get this straight. The downside to using Full Auto is that it has a 2% higher chance of jamming?

I guess there's also the downside that it uses more bullets, but clips aren't exactly rare...

Is there any reason to use Semi instead of Full on a gun that has both?

Full auto is a trade off. Your bog-standard autogun with clip size 30 will only go three rounds on full-auto. You have a higher chance of hitting, and get more hits with a better roll, but you'll need to reload every three rounds, and on an autogun that's a full round action.

If you fire semi-auto, however, you get ten rounds out of the same clip, with a slightly lower chance of hitting, and fewer hits for a really good roll. The clip will last longer, but be slightly less effective in the short run.

[shadow_archmagi]

Full auto is a trade off. Your bog-standard autogun with clip size 30 will only go three rounds on full-auto. You have a higher chance of hitting, and get more hits with a better roll, but you'll need to reload every three rounds, and on an autogun that's a full round action.

If you fire semi-auto, however, you get ten rounds out of the same clip, with a slightly lower chance of hitting, and fewer hits for a really good roll. The clip will last longer, but be slightly less effective in the short run.

But if rapid fire is more accurate, doesn't that mean that you're getting more damage per bullet, meaning that semi-auto will kill fewer people in the long run?

Hmmm.

To answer my own question, I suspect that it would vary from gun to gun; an Autogun fires 10 rounds with a Full Auto burst, and it's very unlikely you'll get 10 degrees of success, so even if you can score 5 hits on very successful roll you're guaranteed to waste 5 shots. Bolters only fire 4 rounds though, so it's way less wasteful to full auto. Then again, even Semi Auto isn't very wasteful there. Hmmmmm.

Also, I notice there's a Customised Weapon Special Quality, but there don't seem to be any rules for how you Customize a weapon.

[Destro_Yersul]

But if rapid fire is more accurate, doesn't that mean that you're getting more damage per bullet, meaning that semi-auto will kill fewer people in the long run?

Hmmm.

To answer my own question, I suspect that it would vary from gun to gun; an Autogun fires 10 rounds with a Full Auto burst, and it's very unlikely you'll get 10 degrees of success, so even if you can score 5 hits on very successful roll you're guaranteed to waste 5 shots. Bolters only fire 4 rounds though, so it's way less wasteful to full auto. Then again, even Semi Auto isn't very wasteful there. Hmmmmm.

Well, let's find out. Each bullet does the same amount of damage, and any hit will use the first bullet. Most semi-auto weapons only fire two or three shots. With one firing two shots, you would only need 2 degrees of success for each bullet to hit. For three, you would need 4 degrees. That would use all the bullets.

Most full-auto weapons, that I can remember, fire five or ten shots. With a five shot weapon, four degrees would get you all the hits. Two degrees would get you three hits, but waste two bullets. Even with a 3 shot semi-auto, with two degrees you only waste one shot.

In addition, Full Auto is only +10 over Semi Auto. That's at most one extra degree of success.

Mathhammer time! Bog standard autogun and Locke-pattern Bolter, no upgrades, assuming Average BS, short range, and average rolls for damage, meaning each hit should do 8-9 wounds before soak with the autogun, or 12-13 with the bolter (it has tearing). Effective BS is 61 for full auto, 51 for semi-auto. For simplicity, each roll ends in one to allow easy calculation of degrees of success. For the purposes of this experiment, assume the target failed its dodge test, has a TB of 3, and 2 armour points to all locations.

Note that bullets are plentiful, and boltgun ammo is rare. Wasting bolt shells is a lot worse than wasting bullets.

Spoilered for length:


Reload Frequency:
Autogun: 2 Full
Full Auto: every 4th/5th round
Semi-Auto: every 11th/12th round

Boltgun: Full
Full Auto: every 7th round
Semi Auto: Every 13th round

Roll: 01
Autogun:
Full Auto:
6 degrees of success, 7 hits total.
average damage/round: ~60 wounds before soak
~25 wounds after soak
average damage/clip: ~180 wounds before soak
~75 wounds after soak
3 bullets wasted/round
Semi Auto:
5 degrees of success, 3 hits total (max 3)
average damage/round: ~25 wounds before soak
~10 wounds after soak
average damage/clip: ~250 wounds before soak
~100 wounds after soak

Boltgun:
Full Auto:
6 degrees of success, 4 hits total (max 4)
average damage: ~50 wounds before soak
~38 wounds after soak
average damage/clip: ~300 wounds before soak
~228 wounds after soak
Semi Auto:
5 degrees of success, 2 hits total (max 2)
average damage: ~25 wounds before soak
~16 wounds after soak
average damage/clip: ~300 wounds before soak
~228 wounds after soak


Roll: 2-11
Autogun:
Full Auto:
5 degrees of success, 6 hits total.
average damage/round: ~51 wounds before soak
~21 wounds after soak
average damage/clip: ~153 wounds before soak
~63 wounds after soak
4 bullets wasted/round
Semi Auto:
4 degrees of success, 3 hits total (max 3)
average damage/round: ~25 wounds before soak
~10 wounds after soak
average damage/clip: ~250 wounds before soak
~100 wounds after soak

Boltgun:
Full Auto:
5 degrees of success, 4 hits total (max 4)
average damage: ~50 wounds before soak
~38 wounds after soak
average damage/clip: ~300 wounds before soak
~228 wounds after soak
Semi Auto:
4 degrees of success, 2 hits total (max 2)
average damage: ~25 wounds before soak
~16 wounds after soak
average damage/clip: ~300 wounds before soak
~228 wounds after soak


Roll: 12-21
Autogun:
Full Auto:
4 degrees of success, 5 hits total.
average damage/round: ~42 wounds before soak
~17 wounds after soak
average damage/clip: ~126 wounds before soak
~51 wounds after soak
5 bullets wasted/round
Semi Auto:
3 degrees of success, 2 hits total
average damage/round: ~17 wounds before soak
~7 wounds after soak
average damage/clip: ~170 wounds before soak
~70 wounds after soak
1 bullet wasted/round

Boltgun:
Full Auto:
4 degrees of success, 4 hits total (max 4)
average damage: ~50 wounds before soak
~38 wounds after soak
average damage/clip: ~300 wounds before soak
~228 wounds after soak
Semi Auto:
3 degrees of success, 2 hits total (max 2)
average damage: ~25 wounds before soak
~16 wounds after soak
average damage/clip: ~300 wounds before soak
~228 wounds after soak


Roll: 22-31
Autogun:
Full Auto:
3 degrees of success, 4 hits total.
average damage/round: ~34 wounds before soak
~14 wounds after soak
average damage/clip: ~102 wounds before soak
~42 wounds after soak
6 bullets wasted/round
Semi Auto:
2 degrees of success, 2 hits total
average damage/round: ~17 wounds before soak
~7 wounds after soak
average damage/clip: ~170 wounds before soak
~70 wounds after soak
1 bullet wasted/round

Boltgun:
Full Auto:
3 degrees of success, 4 hits total
average damage: ~50 wounds before soak
~38 wounds after soak
average damage/clip: ~300 wounds before soak
~228 wounds after soak
Semi Auto:
2 degrees of success, 2 hits total
average damage: ~25 wounds before soak
~16 wounds after soak
average damage/clip: ~300 wounds before soak
~228 wounds after soak


Roll: 32-41
Autogun:
Full Auto:
2 degrees of success, 3 hits total.
average damage/round: ~25 wounds before soak
~10 wounds after soak
average damage/clip: ~75 wounds before soak
~30 wounds after soak
7 bullets wasted/round
Semi Auto:
1 degree of success, 1 hit total
average damage/round: ~8 wounds before soak
~3 wounds after soak
average damage/clip: ~80 wounds before soak
~30 wounds after soak
2 bullets wasted/round

Boltgun:
Full Auto:
2 degrees of success, 3 hits total
average damage: ~37 wounds before soak
~28 wounds after soak
average damage/clip: ~222 wounds before soak
~168 wounds after soak
1 shell wasted/round
Semi Auto:
1 degree of success, 1 hit total
average damage: ~12 wounds before soak
~9 wounds after soak
average damage/clip: ~144 wounds before soak
~108 wounds after soak
1 shell wasted/round


Roll: 42-51
Autogun:
Full Auto:
1 degree of success, 2 hits total.
average damage/round: ~17 wounds before soak
~7 wounds after soak
average damage/clip: ~51 wounds before soak
~21 wounds after soak
8 bullets wasted/round
Semi Auto:
No degrees, 1 hit total
average damage/round: ~8 wounds before soak
~3 wounds after soak
average damage/clip: ~80 wounds before soak
~30 wounds after soak
2 bullets wasted/round

Boltgun:
Full Auto:
1 degree of success, 2 hits total
average damage: ~25 wounds before soak
~16 wounds after soak
average damage/clip: ~300 wounds before soak
~228 wounds after soak
2 shells wasted/round
Semi Auto:
No degrees, 1 hit total
average damage: ~12 wounds before soak
~9 wounds after soak
average damage/clip: ~144 wounds before soak
~108 wounds after soak
1 shell wasted/round


Roll: 52-61
Autogun:
Full Auto:
No degrees, 1 hit total.
average damage/round: ~8 wounds before soak
~3 wounds after soak
average damage/clip: ~80 wounds before soak
~30 wounds after soak
9 bullets wasted/round
Semi Auto:
No hits
3 bullets wasted/round

Boltgun:
Full Auto:
No degrees, 1 hit total
average damage: ~12 wounds before soak
~9 wounds after soak
average damage/clip: ~144 wounds before soak
~108 wounds after soak
3 shells wasted/round
Semi Auto:
No hits
2 shells wasted/round

Roll: 62+
No hits, all shots wasted
Autogun:
Full Auto: 10/round
Semi Auto: 3/round

Boltgun:
Full Auto: 4/round
Semi Auto: 2/round

that there is just the basics, though. Remember, the autogun needs to reload quite often on full auto. Here's the stats for a 5 round combat, assuming an average roll (51) each time.

Autogun, Full Auto:
Round 1: 7 wounds
Round 2: 7 wounds
Round 3: 7 wounds
Round 4: Reload
Round 5: Reload

total wounds dealt: 21

Autogun, Semi Auto:
Round 1: 7 wounds
Round 2: 7 wounds
Round 3: 7 wounds
Round 4: 7 wounds
Round 5: 7 wounds

total wounds dealt: 35

Boltgun, Full Auto:
Round 1: 16 wounds
Round 2: 16 wounds
Round 3: 16 wounds
Round 4: 16 wounds
Round 5: 16 wounds

total wounds dealt: 80

Boltgun, Semi Auto:
Round 1: 9 wounds
Round 2: 9 wounds
Round 3: 9 wounds
Round 4: 9 wounds
Round 5: 9 wounds

total wounds dealt: 45

Interesting. The autogun fails miserably on full auto compared to semi-auto. The Bolter does the opposite. However, 5 rounds isn't enough to factor in the bolter's reload time. Here's 10 rounds:

Autogun, Full Auto:
Round 1: 7 wounds
Round 2: 7 wounds
Round 3: 7 wounds
Round 4: Reload
Round 5: Reload
Round 6: 7 wounds
Round 7: 7 wounds
Round 8: 7 wounds
Round 9: Reload
Round 10: Reload

total wounds dealt: 42

Autogun, Semi Auto:
Round 1: 7 wounds
Round 2: 7 wounds
Round 3: 7 wounds
Round 4: 7 wounds
Round 5: 7 wounds
Round 6: 7 wounds
Round 7: 7 wounds
Round 8: 7 wounds
Round 9: 7 wounds
Round 10: 7 wounds

total wounds dealt: 70

Boltgun, Full Auto:
Round 1: 16 wounds
Round 2: 16 wounds
Round 3: 16 wounds
Round 4: 16 wounds
Round 5: 16 wounds
Round 6: 16 wounds
Round 7: Reload
Round 8: 16 wounds
Round 9: 16 wounds
Round 10: 16 wounds

total wounds dealt: 144

Boltgun, Semi Auto:
Round 1: 9 wounds
Round 2: 9 wounds
Round 3: 9 wounds
Round 4: 9 wounds
Round 5: 9 wounds
Round 6: 9 wounds
Round 7: 9 wounds
Round 8: 9 wounds
Round 9: 9 wounds
Round 10: 9 wounds

total wounds dealt: 90

Even more interesting. Full auto on the autogun continues to fail miserably. Not so with the bolter. Even factoring in a reload, it still did more damage. But how many shots were wasted?

Autogun, 5 rounds:
Full Auto: 24 wasted
Semi Auto: 10 wasted

Autogun, 10 rounds:
Full Auto: 48 wasted
Semi Auto: 20 wasted

But who cares about that, autogun bullets are cheap. Let's look at the bolter.

Bolter, 5 rounds:
Full Auto: 10 wasted
Semi Auto: 5 wasted

Bolter, 10 rounds:
Full Auto: 18 wasted
Semi Auto: 10 wasted

Conclusion: With the bolter, it's better to fire on full auto. You'll get more hits, do more damage, kill more dudes, and yes, waste more shots. With the low rate of fire for full auto, however, you aren't wasting enough to make a difference when taken in comparison to semi auto. A full clip will still do more damage.

With the autogun, however, the rate of fire is so high that it isn't worth the reload time or damage dealt to fire on full auto. Not with average rolls. The better you roll, the more damage you will do, of course, but semi-auto stays viable for a lot longer.



So, to finally answer your question: You're right. It really depends on what gun you happen to have.

[MickJay]

My GM houseruled semi- and fullauto, declaring that we get an extra hit for every degree of success on semi auto, and one for two on full auto. It tends to work fairly well, making short bursts it slightly better than full auto for medium-accuracy shots. As for ammunition, it doesn't tend to be a problem, since most party members either tend to use melee weapons, or have enough backup weapons and mooks to reload them not to care if they run out of ammo.

[shadow_archmagi]

Hang on a sec; that's assuming you're in possession of magic dice that always roll 50. You're not considering the possibility of really good or really bad rolls, which drastically change the output of the Full Auto setting.

Wait a minute, I know how to do this! My highschool stats class! If a tenth of the time I walk away with Result A, then we can say that on average, I walk away with 1/10th of Result A every time!

Assuming Gunner #1 has pretty good BS (40), then


Full Auto Autogun
10% chance to score 6 hits (.6)
10% chance to score 5 hits (.5)
10% chance to score 4 hits (.4)
10% chance to score 3 hits (.3)
10% chance to score 2 hits (.2)
10% chance to score 1 hit (.1)
40% chance to score no hits
Total average of 2.1 hits per round, with 79% of ammo being wasted.

Semi Auto Autogun
10% chance to score 3 hits (.3)
20% chance to score 2 hits (.4)
20% chance to score 1 hit (.2)
50% chance to score no hits
Total average of .9 hits per round, with 70% of ammo being wasted.

Single Shot Autogun, fired Twice
16% chance to score 2 hits (.32)
48% chance to score 1 hits (.48)
36% chance to score no hits
Total average of .8 hits per round, with 60% of ammo being wasted.

Single Shot Autogun, Aimed and Fired Once
50% chance to score 1 hit (.5)
50% chance to score no hits
Total average of .5 hits per round, with 50% of ammo being wasted.


However, 40 BS is a little low for a dedicated combat character. What if somebody rolled a 42, got a +3 from starting on a Forge World, and then spent some of their starting XP to raise it to 50? Heck, why not spend a Full Round to Aim before firing?

Assuming Gunner #2 has 50 BS and spent a full action to Aim (70 BS)

Autogun on Full Auto
10% chance to score 9 hits (.9)
10% chance to score 8 hits (.8)
10% chance to score 7 hits (.7)
10% chance to score 6 hits (.6)
10% chance to score 5 hits (.5)
10% chance to score 4 hits (.4)
10% chance to score 3 hits (.3)
10% chance to score 2 hits (.2)
10% chance to score 1 hits (.1)
10% chance to score 0 hits
Total average of 4.5 hits per round, with 55% of ammo being wasted.

Autogun on Semi Auto
40% chance to score 3 hits (1.2)
20% chance to score 2 hits (.4)
20% chance to score 1 hits (.2)
20% chance to score 0 hits
Total average of 1.8 hits per round, with 40% of ammo being wasted.

Autogun fired Twice
35% chance to score 2 hits (.7) (hit and then hit)
35% chance to score 1 hits (.35) (hit and then miss)
15% chance to score 1 hits (.15)(miss and then hit)
15% chance to score 0 hits (miss and then miss)
Total average of 1.2 hits per round, with 40% of ammo being wasted.


So then, assuming average damage rolls (8.5), we're looking at:

Gunner #1
Full Auto: 17.85 damage (2.3 times as much damage as semi auto)
Semi Auto: 7.65 damage
Firing Twice: 6.8 damage

Gunner #2
Full Auto: 38.25 damage (2.5 times as much damage as semi auto)
Semi Auto: 15.3 damage
Firing Twice: 10.2 damage

As you can see, the more bonuses you can accrue to BS, the more viable Full Auto becomes.

Admittedly, a 2 round reload time is bad, so let's factor that in: 3 rounds shooting 2 rounds reloading means damage is only dealt on 3/5 rounds, lowering DPS to 3/5ths of what it would otherwise be.

(17.85)(.6)=10.71

Gunner #1 is still being more effective if he fires Full Auto all the time and periodically stops to reload. If his weapon his the Customized upgrade (Which I still havn't found the rules for please help) that halves his reload time to 1 full round instead of 2, so he'd be at 14.28 then; fully double the effectiveness.

[shadow_archmagi]

The same calculations for Bolters and Storm Bolters:


40 BS

Full Auto, Normal:
30% chance of 4 hits
10% chance of 3 hits
10% chance of 2 hits
10% chance of 1 hits
40% chance of 0 hits
Total average of 1.8 hits, 55% of ammunition wasted

Full Auto, Storm:
50% chance of 4 hits
10% chance of 2 hits
40% chance of 0 hits
Total average of 2.2 hits, 45% of ammunition wasted

Semi Auto, Normal
20% chance of 1 hits (.2)
30% chance of 2 hits (.6)
50% chance of 0 hits
Total average of .8 hits, 60% of ammunition wasted

Semi Auto, Storm:
50% chance of 2 hits (1)
50% chance of 0 hits (0)
Total average of 1 hits, 50% of ammunition wasted.


Extremely curious to find that Bolters are more accurate when shot faster! What if we up the numbers a bit? Does the pattern remain?


50 BS+20 for Aiming

Full Auto, Normal:
60% chance of 4 hits
10% chance of 3 hits
10% chance of 2 hits
10% chance of 1 hits
10% chance of 0 hits
Total average of 3 hits, 25% of ammunition wasted

Full Auto, Storm:
80% chance of 4 hits
10% chance of 2 hits
10% chance of 0 hits
Total average of 3.4 hits, 15% of ammunition wasted

Semi Auto, Normal
60% chance of 2 hits (1.2)
20% chance of 1 hits (.2)
20% chance of 0 hits
Total average of 1.4 hits, 30% of ammunition wasted

Semi Auto, Storm:
80% chance of 2 hits (1)
20% chance of 0 hits (0)
Total average of 1.6 hits, 20% of ammunition wasted.


Yes, yes it does!

[king.com]

Hate to interrupt the math but when your a Rogue Trader, why are you not simply bringing along a crewmember to haul a backpack full of standard ammunition?

[shadow_archmagi]

Hate to interrupt the math but when your a Rogue Trader, why are you not simply bringing along a crewmember to haul a backpack full of standard ammunition?

Actually, that reminds me- Do you have to make acquisition checks for ammunition?

[king.com]

Actually, that reminds me- Do you have to make acquisition checks for ammunition?

Theoretically you have to make acquisition checks for everything unless you employ the 'below common quality its free' rule. Bolt rounds actually hit the point where you could consider making a player make acquisition for it but I've always gone with standard ammunition is free as a rogue tradre is likely to have huge stockpiles of ammunition on their ships including bolt rounds (particularly if firing macrocannons are free to do, it makes purchasing a clip of ammunition utterly insignificant).

Looked it up, turns out once a weapon is acquired, you get unlimited ammunition in storage at your base of operations (be it a ship or elsewhere).

[MickJay]

Yeah, in it all comes down to reloading, since ammo is essentially "free" (unlike in, say, Dark Heresy, where bolter ammo is ridiculously expensive, considering average acolyte's means). Even reloading is not necessarily a problem, since if and when RT and his top retinue decide to engage in combat personally, they might well bring with them a few of the crewmembers or servitors purely for carrying and reloading spare weapons.

[Destro_Yersul]

Yeah, in Dark Heresy bolter ammunition is far more valuable. The price alone makes it so that you never want to waste a shot, unless the Inquisitor is supplying you with ammunition. My GM has a houserule where you pay for ammo once: anything you have fired out of a gun gets replaced by the Inquisitor.

And yeah, my math there was rather quick and dirty. I never took any stats classes, so I had to do it all manually and assuming the average worked well for that. It stands to reason that the higher your BS, and the more bonuses you can stack, the better full-auto will get. Though, with something like the bolter, having only 4 maximum hits, a good roll will usually be enough.

And again, this assumes unupgraded weaponry. Imagine a bolter with a motion tracker, or whatever that thing is that adds +10 on full or semi-auto. It wouldn't be hard to stack up 100+ effective BS on a dedicated combat man, and then full auto is basically godly. You only miss on 96-100, I believe, with fate point rerolls, and since you only need 3 degrees of success, you can pretty easily have an 80% chance of making all 4 hits.

[king.com]

Yeah, in Dark Heresy bolter ammunition is far more valuable. The price alone makes it so that you never want to waste a shot, unless the Inquisitor is supplying you with ammunition. My GM has a houserule where you pay for ammo once: anything you have fired out of a gun gets replaced by the Inquisitor.

Awww that takes away one of the big turmoils of a Dark Heresy character, sure theres a demon bearing down on the party but thats no cause to use more than your autopistol. Those shells dont come cheap!

[Destro_Yersul]

Awww that takes away one of the big turmoils of a Dark Heresy character, sure theres a demon bearing down on the party but thats no cause to use more than your autopistol. Those shells dont come cheap!

He makes up for it. In his games, ammo is the least of your worries. Plus, it only gets replaced between adventures, so during one you still need to conserve ammo, if it's the expensive kind.

[shadow_archmagi]

Acquisition tests: If the ship comes to port, can *every* player make an acquisition check?

Also, if the players fail their acquisition check, when do they get to try again?

Would it make sense to provide players with alternate options based on degrees of failure? (IE: You can't find 200 best-craftsmanship hellguns, but you can find 100 common ones...)

[king.com]

Acquisition tests: If the ship comes to port, can *every* player make an acquisition check?

Also, if the players fail their acquisition check, when do they get to try again?

Would it make sense to provide players with alternate options based on degrees of failure? (IE: You can't find 200 best-craftsmanship hellguns, but you can find 100 common ones...)

It can vary on the GM but I run it with, an Acquisition check every time for every player when they have a prolonged period of docking at a major port (this usually only occurs after an Endevour has been completed).

The second part is entirely up to the GM, personally I dont run it like that but it goes up to your players and what they are looking for.

[shadow_archmagi]

Does anyone have a link to a particularly good Play-by-Post or chatlog what I can rifle through to get an idea of how the game is actually played?

EDIT: There's a Fire Selector item that says you can load three magazines and then flip between them as a free action. Could you buy one and then just use it to attach three ordinary magazines to your gun and thus have three times the ammo before reloading?

[king.com]

EDIT: There's a Fire Selector item that says you can load three magazines and then flip between them as a free action. Could you buy one and then just use it to attach three ordinary magazines to your gun and thus have three times the ammo before reloading?

YEP, as wierd as it would look, its basiclly a component to let you put 3 clips into the gun. Up to you as a GM though.

[Destro_Yersul]

YEP, as wierd as it would look, its basiclly a component to let you put 3 clips into the gun. Up to you as a GM though.

The caveat being that you would need to reload each one seperately. So once you run out, your gun takes three times as long to reload.

As for chatlogs, those I don't have. What I do have is this: http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?489083-Rogue-Trader-Into-the-Maw-or-How-I-Became-Incredibly-Wealthy

It's an in-character record of an incredibly amusing Rogue Trader game. Definitely worth a read, if you aren't looking for something that has mechanics in it. If you are looking for mechanics, can't help you there.

[MickJay]

You can still reload only one clip, though. And if the fight isn't over by the time you've emptied 3 clips of anything, you probably have other things to worry about than reloading :smallwink:

My GM ruled that the Selector clips are only 2/3 the size of a single clip (which still doubles ammo capacity, mind you).

[shadow_archmagi]

Where can I find out more about deathcults? How should I roleplay a ship's crew that have a deathcult? Is this a secretive, underground thing, or should it be considered perfectly normal by the majority of the crew?

[Selrahc]

Where can I find out more about deathcults? How should I roleplay a ship's crew that have a deathcult? Is this a secretive, underground thing, or should it be considered perfectly normal by the majority of the crew?

It would depend on the ship and the cult. Certainly not something the crew would want to discuss around outsiders but the Rogue Trader and his elites are probably not thought of as outsiders.

It's just a crazy religious organization, it can be almost anything. From a step away from Chaos Worship, to a particularly devout emperor worship group, to a form of philosophy almost devoid of religion, to an almost strictly business organization working as an assassins guild, to a mostly social "old boys club". Maybe it's the funeral directors, maybe it's the soldiers, maybe those who have had a near death experience, maybe it's almost everybody on the ship. Make up a specific type of cult that intrigues you. There is no one uniform death cult.

[shadow_archmagi]

So, flipping through Battlefleet Koronus, I noticed the stats for an Ork Rok. Since I'm starting the game by running the Into The Maw mini adventure (But changing things around to involve more orks and generally be a bit less linear) I decided I'd keep the ambush scene but switch the random pirate ships for a Rok or two. (In retrospect it should've been obvious that I had no real idea how strong a Rok was. In my defense, the players have a light cruiser. With no lances.)


Am I reading the rules right when I see that Roks need to make a manuever check to make a turn at all ever? Because it seems to me that with a manuever of -20, an average pilot only has a 1 in 10 chance of turning. With a speed of 3, that means that a Rok will probably go a good 30ish VUs before it manages to turn...

We ended up stopping partway through the fight, but at the moment, one of the Roks is careening off into the middle of nowhere (Which is probably for the best, since the players were taking some serious hits) and it looks like it'd be pretty easy for the players to just wait for the Roks to schwimm off into space and then rescue the pilgrims and escape without further conflict.

Is this how Roks were intended to function? It seems like it'd require incredible luck on their part just to stay within maximum range.

[The Glyphstone]

Sounds like it makes sense for a Rok. They're capital-ship sized battering rams as much as useful spacecraft - aim one dead center at the enemy fleet and hit the gas, and either you get to ram something or your enemy's formation is shot all to hell as they scramble out of your way. It's the Brute ships and Kill Kroozers in the Rok's wake that do the cleanup, and if the Rok manages to turn far enough to make a second pass before the battle is over, bonus.

[Leon]

Given that its a Asteroid carved out and stuffed with orks, guns and explosives then yes wild movement and lack of a turn circle should be expected. Aim it at a planet from a distance back and enjoy the carnage when it arrives and disgorges the surving orks and attendant battle engines

[shadow_archmagi]

Sounds like it makes sense for a Rok. They're capital-ship sized battering rams as much as useful spacecraft - aim one dead center at the enemy fleet and hit the gas, and either you get to ram something or your enemy's formation is shot all to hell as they scramble out of your way. It's the Brute ships and Kill Kroozers in the Rok's wake that do the cleanup, and if the Rok manages to turn far enough to make a second pass before the battle is over, bonus.

Actually, it only does 1d10 ramming damage because it's so slow- even the weakest gun does more. Hilariously, there is an orky ship that's basically a giant space knife for stabbing other ships that does a pile more damage.

[king.com]

Actually, it only does 1d10 ramming damage because it's so slow- even the weakest gun does more. Hilariously, there is an orky ship that's basically a giant space knife for stabbing other ships that does a pile more damage.

Thats becauses its not really a ship designed to ever be used for combat (then again its Ork, so its going into combat more often than not). Its basiclly a big giant transport used to get orks from fight A to fight B.

[Daisuke1133]

Not to mention being used as a primitive orbital strike.

[king.com]

Not to mention being used as a primitive orbital strike.

Thats just a byproduct of landing on the planet. Shooting from orbit is very unOrky, it implies you dont want to get stuck into some 'umies.

[Lucretia]

So here's a question I could probably answer with enough time and thinking-faces, but instead I'mma ask y'all.

Imagine you're shooting on full auto and you get a Righteous Fury. You activate it with a successful BS check, and the DoS would entitle you, normally, to make several attacks. Do you make all the attacks you 'won' in the roll?

That may not have made sense. If not, I'll elaborate.

[shadow_archmagi]

So here's a question I could probably answer with enough time and thinking-faces, but instead I'mma ask y'all.

Imagine you're shooting on full auto and you get a Righteous Fury. You activate it with a successful BS check, and the DoS would entitle you, normally, to make several attacks. Do you make all the attacks you 'won' in the roll?

That may not have made sense. If not, I'll elaborate.

Oh, I think I see what you're asking-

Firing an autogun

Roll a 30 when you need a 30
Roll 10 for damage
Roll a 1 when you need a 30
Do you get 3 hits?

I think the answer to your question is no

[king.com]

So here's a question I could probably answer with enough time and thinking-faces, but instead I'mma ask y'all.

Imagine you're shooting on full auto and you get a Righteous Fury. You activate it with a successful BS check, and the DoS would entitle you, normally, to make several attacks. Do you make all the attacks you 'won' in the roll?

That may not have made sense. If not, I'll elaborate.

Righteous Fury is activated by the damage dice you roll after your BS check, for every 10 you roll you have a chance to continue the righteous fury. If you only get a single 10, you get a single righteous fury.

[Lucretia]

Thanks to you both! If you did get oodles of attacks it'd make storm twin-linked machine guns just about silly. As long as you had unlimited ammunition, that is! :smalltongue:

[king.com]

Thanks to you both! If you did get oodles of attacks it'd make storm twin-linked machine guns just about silly. As long as you had unlimited ammunition, that is! :smalltongue:

Yea....that happens in Deathwatch. You auto-confirm critical hits so your 60+ BS and stormbolters or heavy bolters kill everything. EVERYTHING! After rolling enough dice to collapse a structurally unsound table first.

[The Glyphstone]

Yea....that happens in Deathwatch. You auto-confirm critical hits so your 60+ BS and stormbolters or heavy bolters kill everything. EVERYTHING! After rolling enough dice to collapse a structurally unsound table first.

Against Xenos, at least. Against anything else, you just have to hit again like normal people, which is easy.

At least they patched Deathwatch's Righteous Fury rules to match DH and RT. The original ruleset where your multiplied dice and flat bonuses instead of just exploding 10's was beyond madness and Sparta. My group's first game with the un-errataed rules featured a highlight of me shoving a melta bomb down a Tyranid Warrior's throat and doing a little over 300 damage.

[king.com]

Against Xenos, at least. Against anything else, you just have to hit again like normal people, which is easy.

At least they patched Deathwatch's Righteous Fury rules to match DH and RT. The original ruleset where your multiplied dice and flat bonuses instead of just exploding 10's was beyond madness and Sparta. My group's first game with the un-errataed rules featured a highlight of me shoving a melta bomb down a Tyranid Warrior's throat and doing a little over 300 damage.

Oh yea that was hilarious, my players fought a hive tyrant. Devestator killed it in 1 round.

[The Glyphstone]

Oh yea that was hilarious, my players fought a hive tyrant. Devestator killed it in 1 round.

Yeah, now it only takes 2 rounds to kill a Hive Tyrant with a Devastator. Freaking Heavy Bolters.

[Fearan]

Err, don't they soak hits from autofire separatly? Because it's, you know, multiple hits.

[king.com]

Err, don't they soak hits from autofire separatly? Because it's, you know, multiple hits.

Yep, that doesn't stop anything. Exponential results + MANY dice = BOOM

[The Glyphstone]

Plus Kraken Bolts and 100+ effective BS scores. When you're doing 2d10+12 per hit and scoring on average 5 hits, it takes something seriously badass to survive one salvo, let alone 2. With Rites of Battle to slap Felling on the thing, it's just unfair.