My DM thinks a Core Monk can easily kill any Core spellcasters.

[Con_Brio1993]

Is there a way (without actually playing a wizard) to show this is wrong?

[Aegis013]

Point him to any/every Wizard v. Monk theorycraft thread? Or play test thread? Or refer him to JaronK's tier list? Or offer to PvP it?

There are some people that will not listen even when all the evidence points towards X, and will stubbornly stick to Y. So it may just be best to let him think that, although when he brings out monks to stop the party wizard.... you'll get to laugh.

[Keld Denar]

What ECL?

Above 5, ask him what his plans are to deal with Fly are? Or how he'll escape from a Web? Or a Black Tentacles?

[Con_Brio1993]

Point him to any/every Wizard v. Monk theorycraft thread? Or play test thread? Or refer him to JaronK's tier list? Or offer to PvP it?

There are some people that will not listen even when all the evidence points towards X, and will stubbornly stick to Y. So it may just be best to let him think that, although when he brings out monks to stop the party wizard.... you'll get to laugh.

He seems to think the Wizard doesn't have 100 billions ways to stop the Monk from getting into melee range.

[Aegis013]

He seems to think the Wizard doesn't have 100 billions ways to stop the Monk from getting into melee range.

He may be thinking Monk's 1/day dimension door will let him close in.
You can point him toward Anticipate Teleportation.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

Maybe he meant in his game this was the case. Maybe in his game casters are fiat nerfed. Often such nerfs are justifiable, but they do change the mid-high level landscape. That said, at low-mid levels simply flying and casting wind wall (and then doing whatever) will shut down a monk pretty badly.

Also at level 1 any class can kill any other class. Even a commoner has a chance of winning. What level is he talking about?

[Con_Brio1993]

Maybe he meant in his game this was the case. Maybe in his game casters are fiat nerfed. Often such nerfs are justifiable, but they do change the mid-high level landscape. That said, at low-mid levels simply flying and casting wind wall (and then doing whatever) will shut down a monk pretty badly.

Also at level 1 any class can kill any other class. Even a commoner has a chance of winning. What level is he talking about?

He didn't specify a level. And he hasn't mentioned any fiat nerfs.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Make a monk and a wizard with 26-32 point buy. Explain that this is so there isn't a chance that one will end up with three 18s and three 16s while the other ends up with two 15s, two 13s, and two 10s.

Make them at levels 5, 10, 15, and 20. Levels below 5 are too shaky, since a d12 hit die barbarian can be killed by a lucky guy with a scythe.

Let the DM make the monk while you make the wizard (with the help of the playground).

Make sure your first spell every combat is Fly or Displacement. And make sure you take Improved Initiative. For the 10th level and up ones, use a Contingent Displacement or Contingent Dimension Door or something to negate losing initiative. When you get access to Overland Flight, TAKE IT. It lasts long enough that you only need one, maybe two per adventuring day, and if the DM says it runs out during the fight or right before the fight, or outright bans it, your DM is a scrub, AKA a person who never uses certain options and expects nobody else to either.

[Urpriest]

He may be thinking Monk's 1/day dimension door will let him close in.
You can point him toward Anticipate Teleportation.

Not in core. But without Mage Slayer the mage can still cast, since dimension door ends your turn.

[Aegis013]

... And make sure you take Improved Initiative...

ACF in Unearthed Arcana lets you trade Scribe Scroll for a fighter bonus feat. Worth it for Imp Initiative, imo.

Edit: Just a suggestion to keep a feat slot free.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

He didn't specify a level. And he hasn't mentioned any fiat nerfs.Well, ideally you should grab a neutral, rules-savvy third party to DM a PvP fight between you two somewhere in the level 17-20 range. When that inevitably goes poorly for him (time stop, shapechange, gate, MDJ and foresight come to mind), switch to level 11. Then to 5.

If you keep beating him up with a RAW-abiding, neutral DM, he'll at least have to admit that wizards have more optimization potential.

[Hiro Protagonest]

ACF in Unearthed Arcana lets you trade Scribe Scroll for a fighter bonus feat. Worth it for Imp Initiative, imo.

Edit: Just a suggestion to keep a feat slot free.

CORE. ONLY.

[Amphetryon]

As has been said before, Monks look shiny upon initially looking over the various base classes, because they get something every level. This leads some to the belief that they must be powerful. Twelve years of reports from the 3.X trenches overwhelmingly indicate this ain't actually so, excepting niche cases and specific house rules.

Basically, the Wizard in all but the lowest levels of the game can choose where, how, and whether to engage the Monk, who has to run up and then Flurry, hoping the penalties associated with Flurry coupled with less than full BAB don't mean he's aggressively waving at the Wizard who chose to engage in melee. Our Monk has to also hope the Wizard forgot any defenses, as a decently chosen spell list provides many of them.

[dextercorvia]

Not in core. But without Mage Slayer the mage can still cast, since dimension door ends your turn.

Also, he would have to dimension door into the air, and then he would begin falling...

He could be relying on a sling or shurikens, but the range on those is meh. He is probably expecting to have sufficient WBL for Winged Boots or a Cloak of Flying.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

Also, he would have to dimension door into the air, and then he would begin falling...

He could be relying on a sling or shurikens, but the range on those is meh. He is probably expecting to have sufficient WBL for Winged Boots or a Cloak of Flying.If he wants to be at that level (I wouldn't), it would be amusing to abuse planar binding to get a tough-as-nails outsider to beat up the monk for the caster. He can be invisible/overland flying/sipping martinis while it happens.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Oh yeah, focus all your WBL into a buckler, bracers of armor, ring of protection, and amulet of natural armor.

Your DM will probably whine and complain about how you're at full spell slots. If not before the fight, he will afterwards. Point out that the monk's at full HP, and no, there isn't a cleric to heal him every fight. If he continues, take away one spell slot of every level, saying you already cast those (and fight again, if you already fought).

[Coidzor]

Let's take a 7th level Druid. He can be a bird all day and avoid the monk being able to physically threaten him. And even if he isn't, he has air walk as a spell available to him.

His Animal Companion (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/crocodileGiant.htm)out grapples the monk with a grapple of 21 if the croc is completely naked and unbuffed. 7th level monk has 5 BAB, a 20-22 Strength if he got a nat 18 or was a half-orc and has a +2 item, and another 4 if he's got improved grapple, so that adds up to 14-15 if he built for it, which means his MAD will mean he left other things to be desired, like dex, wisdom, or constitution, so he'll be easier to hit and have less hit points and be less able to afford defensive items, so his AC may not break 20 and his saves will be lower.

Summon (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/summonNaturesAllyIV.htm) bears (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/bearBrown.htm) or more crocs. They grapple him too. Even if he's built for grappling, he'll get overwhelmed, because allies can join the grapple without even giving him an opposed check but still give him grief if he tries to pin anybody or escape or move the grapple near to where the druid is located. Since the monk lacks dex to AC, his AC is going to be even lower and the druid can actually have other summons around to whale on him with flanking, even.

And that's beating him by playing him at a game that he'd think was his.

Now, let's take a 7th level Cleric. He's probably got heavy armor and a heavy shield and a one-handed morningstar, because we're being stereotypical here. So, right off the bat he's going to have 20 AC between full plate and a heavy shield. He's less MAD than the monk, since if he wants to be a physical fighter he just needs a non-negative dexterity, Con, Wisdom, and Strength. And he can make up for a negative dexterity between spells and heavy armor.

He has the same BAB and can better afford a good strength than the monk as well as boost his strength up before a fight better than the monk can afford to buy in items. Instead of being encouraged to use the unenchantable save for Amulet of Mighty Fists in core Unarmed Strike, the cleric is encouraged to use sticks to beat people with that can accept weapon properties.

He can also air walk, just like the druid, and on top of that, he has Divine Power which gives him Full BAB and he has Freedom of Movement which means that if the Monk is the same one that thinks grappling solves all of his problems, well, he'll be sorely disappointed. On top of that, he has domains which can give him some nice things, like wands of some wizard spells that he can use without having to UMD.

And can be quite the effective necromancer at 7th level between animate dead and rebuking. Or, heck, he has access to lesser planar ally. It's not as nice as planar binding, but it's just one more force that the cleric can bring to bear.

So he's got the same or better basic chassis for a knock-down fight and has spells to make himself better and immune to the monk's tricks as well as summoning and the ability to have permanent, semipermanent, and temporary minions as opposed to the monk only being able to bring other forces into the fight with cross-class UMDing magic items or using leadership, which would make the monk superfluous in comparison with his 5th level minion who would be a spell level behind the cleric.


Let's take a 7th level Bard instead now. He's about as MAD as the Monk is and is beginning to approach a fair fight. But, hey, the Bard has access to the 3 Gs of Grease, Glitterdust, and Glibness.

The monk might have an OK sense motive if that's really what he spent his precious few skill points on, but he ain't going to be able to stand up to a +30 bonus on top of 10 ranks and a good charisma. Which could just make it so that the Monk forfeits, but where's the fun in that? Or he could also use Lesser Geas, but that's basically a SOD anyway, so why rely on those?

A melee bard can give himself displacement, get by with a non-full Int and a decent charisma, put points into strength and dex and cha and wear armor.

Bards also have the ability to UMD wands pretty well, so many of the wizard/cleric/druid tricks can be brought to bear here.

Ranger: Also MAD, but can afford to have less points in intelligence and still contribute scouting and skills to a certain extent. Spells aren't very useful at 7th level and TWF is about as bad a fighting style as a monk's flurry of misses, but he's better set up to grapple than the monk is because of his full BAB and greater ability to put points in strength and less demand for wisdom and intelligence.

He gets a minor pet which, while not able to practically solo the Monk like the druid's animal companion can be used as a mount for a small-size charger or just used to get flanking on the monk. While the monk lacks any capacity for doing such himself.

Paladin: Probably the closest to the MAD of the Monk other than the Bard, because he wants everything except Dex and even that he doesn't really want negative. But, since he's a better base beatstick and has a pet to help him be a beatstick, he's got less pressure on contributing outside of combat than the monk with his minor scouting role, so he can better afford nixing Int even though he really doesn't want to lack social skills.

Can basically do the same thing as the fighter, two-handed power attack the monk and outclass him as a damage dealer and take more punishment than the Monk can dish out.

[Doug Lampert]

Let's take a 7th level Druid. He can be a bird all day and avoid the monk being able to physically threaten him. And even if he isn't, he has air walk as a spell available to him.

His Animal Companion (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/crocodileGiant.htm)out grapples the monk with a grapple of 21 if the croc is completely naked and unbuffed. 7th level monk has 5 BAB, a 20-22 Strength if he got a nat 18 or was a half-orc and has a +2 item, and another 4 if he's got improved grapple, so that adds up to 14-15 if he built for it, which means his MAD will mean he left other things to be desired, like dex, wisdom, or constitution, so he'll be easier to hit and have less hit points and be less able to afford defensive items, so his AC may not break 20 and his saves will be lower.

Summon (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/summonNaturesAllyIV.htm) bears (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/bearBrown.htm) or more crocs. They grapple him too. Even if he's built for grappling, he'll get overwhelmed, because allies can join the grapple without even giving him an opposed check but still give him grief if he tries to pin anybody or escape or move the grapple near to where the druid is located. Since the monk lacks dex to AC, his AC is going to be even lower and the druid can actually have other summons around to whale on him with flanking, even.

And that's beating him by playing him at a game that he'd think was his.

Or build a cleric with the war domain giving you a decent weapon, cast only long duration buffs, and laugh at his feable stunning fist and beat the crap out of him.

The problem with the monk isn't that he's melee, it's that even for melee he's pitiflully weak.

DON'T use an optimized wizard to beat him. Offer to use the straight NPC builds in the DMG. Optimization just shows you can use the internet to optimize. DON'T use planar binding shenanigans or gate (if at level 17+), those are broken spells, all that shows is that those spells are broken not that the monk is garbage.

Just take a druid or cleric or whatever and try a few SoL spells if you start at range or summon a few ordinary monsters and beat the crap out of him. Have a plan for if he realizes that his only use for his "superior mobility" is to try to run away.

DougL

[Rubik]

Let's take a 7th level Druid. He can be a bird all day and avoid the monk being able to physically threaten him. And even if he isn't, he has air walk as a spell available to him.

His Animal Companion (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/crocodileGiant.htm)out grapples the monk with a grapple of 21 if the croc is completely naked and unbuffed. 7th level monk has 5 BAB, a 20-22 Strength if he got a nat 18 or was a half-orc and has a +2 item, and another 4 if he's got improved grapple, so that adds up to 14-15 if he built for it, which means his MAD will mean he left other things to be desired, like dex, wisdom, or constitution, so he'll be easier to hit and have less hit points and be less able to afford defensive items, so his AC may not break 20 and his saves will be lower.

Summon (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/summonNaturesAllyIV.htm) bears (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/bearBrown.htm) or more crocs. They grapple him too. Even if he's built for grappling, he'll get overwhelmed, because allies can join the grapple without even giving him an opposed check but still give him grief if he tries to pin anybody or escape or move the grapple near to where the druid is located. Since the monk lacks dex to AC, his AC is going to be even lower and the druid can actually have other summons around to whale on him with flanking, even.

And that's beating him by playing him at a game that he'd think was his.I vote for this.

Start zapping him with lightning when he gets uppity.

[Lither]

I've killed plenty of level 20 wizards with monks.

The wizards in question were all unconscious and at negative hitpoints thanks to the other party members.

On a serious note, beat him with a sorcerer. That should show that a monk isn't even capable of challenging a tier-2 character, let alone a wizard.

[Coidzor]

On a serious note, beat him with a sorcerer. That should show that a monk isn't even capable of challenging a tier-2 character, let alone a wizard.

If you really want to rub it in, beat him with a Bard. A core-only Bard. It's a spellcaster and people that think Monks are strong generally think Bards are weak because they're unfocused. And it's "weaker" than the two half-casters as a fighting type as those two are mostly melee anyway and weaker than the fullcasters in terms of casting due to spells known and spell progression and spells per day.

But it's got almost a good of chassis as the monk and doesn't have armor or weapon limitations getting in its way.

Also, unlike the monk, the bard has good synergy for plausibly gaining allies without using class features or summoning. Though he could also do some summoning.

Heck, one of my favorite things to do when departing from strict RAW is put points into handle animal as a bard and use up a trick to teach the animals that certain songs that I play for inspire courage translate into certain tricks that I want them to perform so that I can direct 2-3 animals with a standard action rather than use a full turn to convert my standard action into a move and the two move actions to direct the animals to attack the enemy.

Even if you allow the monk to have his own animals, the bard's animals will be better due to inspire courage, and if you give 'em 8th level so that the monk gets iterative attacks, the bard's inspire courage goes up. Which means that the bard actually has the same kind of attack bonus advantage on the monk that a full BAB class has.

[Hirax]

At higher levels:

Moment of prescience to win initiative
Quickened dimensional anchor, forcecage (barred version)
Voila, 1 round doomed monk. Magic missile would be sufficient at this point, but be as creative as you'd like finishing them off. Add true strike to dimensional anchor if you want to be certain it hits, but a monk's AC is going to suck in core only, so it probably isn't necessary.

[Rubik]

At higher levels:

Moment of prescience to win initiative
Quickened dimensional anchor, forcecage (barred version)
Voila, 1 round doomed monk. Magic missile would be sufficient at this point, but be as creative as you'd like finishing them off. Add true strike to dimensional anchor if you want to be certain it hits, but a monk's AC is going to suck in core only, so it probably isn't necessary.Not Dimensional Anchor. Dimension Lock. No chance of stopping it.

Dimension Lock + Acid Fog + barred Forcecage.

[Lord Raziere]

I'm sorry…

but I think you are speaking to a completely different world here. the DM probably hasn't even heard of tiers, or pun-pun, or anything nearing optimization.

to you all, your off spouting all your theories and such you compiled from mathematics and blah blah blah, when the DM probably has never even heard of whatever your talking about, and has just been running, playing and DMing a lot of real games, and no real DM sticks entirely to the rules, and a real game that doesn't stick entirely to the rules is better than a bunch of theoretical stuff in my opinion.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

I'm sorry…

but I think you are speaking to a completely different world here. the DM probably hasn't even heard of tiers, or pun-pun, or anything nearing optimization.

to you all, your off spouting all your theories and such you compiled from mathematics and blah blah blah, when the DM probably has never even heard of whatever your talking about, and has just been running, playing and DMing a lot of real games, and no real DM sticks entirely to the rules, and a real game that doesn't stick entirely to the rules is better than a bunch of theoretical stuff in my opinion.Ah, so we're doing it wrong, and your way of playing is superior. I've played in RAW games before, with some in-game gentlemen's agreements about certain spells and effects. IME they're fun and much less suspicious than a heavily houseruled game.

Setting aside badwrongfun, the OP's DM made a blanket statement about monks and casters, and the OP asked us to demonstrate that the statement is wrong. All we need to do to prove a blanket statement wrong is to show it doesn't work in a particular case; in this case most of us proposed actual play (not theory) in a RAW setting.

In a roundabout way, however, you do bring up a good point. Why does it matter if the DM thinks monks rock? (http://xkcd.com/386/)

[dextercorvia]

I'm sorry…

but I think you are speaking to a completely different world here. the DM probably hasn't even heard of tiers, or pun-pun, or anything nearing optimization.

to you all, your off spouting all your theories and such you compiled from mathematics and blah blah blah, when the DM probably has never even heard of whatever your talking about, and has just been running, playing and DMing a lot of real games, and no real DM sticks entirely to the rules, and a real game that doesn't stick entirely to the rules is better than a bunch of theoretical stuff in my opinion.

It may be... but the DM entered our world with a hypothesis -- and you don't test an objective hypothesis with houserules.

[Hirax]

Not Dimensional Anchor. Dimension Lock. No chance of stopping it.

Dimension Lock + Acid Fog + barred Forcecage.

I was going for a round 1 shutdown, in core you can't quicken forcecage or dim lock. I suppose it doesn't matter though; the monk will never hit the wizard anyway.


I'm sorry…

but I think you are speaking to a completely different world here. the DM probably hasn't even heard of tiers, or pun-pun, or anything nearing optimization.

to you all, your off spouting all your theories and such you compiled from mathematics and blah blah blah, when the DM probably has never even heard of whatever your talking about, and has just been running, playing and DMing a lot of real games, and no real DM sticks entirely to the rules, and a real game that doesn't stick entirely to the rules is better than a bunch of theoretical stuff in my opinion.

Multiple solutions have been posted that utilize only things found in the Player's Handbook, and would work under any DM that didn't simply ban those spells. Web and black tentacles were mentioned in the second reply, and are game over for monks.

[bloodtide]

Well, he is not wrong exactly.

If you play a non optimized game with things like no point buys so you roll for ability scores, you must keep your rolled scores no matter how low and rolling for hit points, then it's true. It's even more so true if you do those things and stick to Core so you can't use the couple of things in other books.

A monk gets tons of attack and defense powers automatically. A spellcaster gets to pick there spells and can pick anything. So the average spellcaster won't have the 'perfect' spells. The Optimized Internet folk really only make up something like 10% of the gamers.

And a ton of the 'cool stuff' spellcasters can do take into account that somehow the spellcaster has several rounds, if not minutes to prepare.

Take the 'Iconic' D&D characters: Mialee and Ember at 5th level(3.0 in Enemies and Allies). Say they were in a tavern, had some words, and both stood up to fight. So they are only five feet away from each other and neither has time to prepare anything.

1.If Ember goes first he can easily punch Mialee as her ac is 16 and with furry of blows he can get two attacks at +4. He rolls a 13 and an 18, so he hits both times. His damage is 1d8+1, so 5 and 7 plus 2 equals 14. Mialee, with only 17 hit points is in trouble. When it's Mialee's turn to act, she can't do much. She can't get away so she has to try a spell, and with a minimum DC of 16 and 8 ranks in concentration she can try to cast defensively. If she fails, Embers attack of opportunity will likely kill her. Lets say she makes her check though and tosses her most powerful attack spell...acid arrow. She needs a ranged touch to hit Ember(his ac17) and with her ranged attack of +6 she might even hit. Her acid arrow does 2d4 damage. So with a 3 and a 1 she does 4 points of damage and as Ember has 31 hit points, he does not even notice. Next round Mialee is dead no matter what she does...

2.If Mialee goes first, she might have a chance. She could fireball the whole tavern(and her) and do 4,2,6,2,3 some 17 points of damage, enough to kill her if she fails her save. Ember has evasion and a reflex save of +7 and the fireball DC is 15. But even if he does fail, the 9 points of damage won't effect him much. She could try charm person, but with a wil save of +8(with still mind) and a DC of 14 it does not stand much of a chance of working. Magic missile can get her 3d4+1 damage, lets say 1,2,3 for a total of 9. She can mage armor herself to make her ac 20 and that might help a bit vs. his attacks for a round or two. She can summon a monster, but that takes the round.

She could try web. With her DC of 15 and his reflex of +7 he won't be held(a d20 roll rolled a 20) just entangled. He can either throw his javelin of lighting or move out of the web(as he only needs to move five feet). She might stand a chance here, as with a strength of 13 and no escape artist ranks, Ember could be stuck. She could move back a distance and hit him with her couple attack spells, her wand of magic missles, or just run away. If he hits with his javelin of lighting though, she is dead as the damage is 20.

She could try invisibility. Ember does 'know the square' she is in though and can still strike at her unless she moves, with a that 50% chance of a hit. She might be able to get away if she just stays invisible and runs. She could move out into the street, maybe 30 feet away and shoot her magic missiles, or acid arrow or fireball back in the tavern. But they won't hurt much, and then she is visible. And once he can see her, she does not stand much of a chance of out running him, or getting out of range of his javelin of lightning.

In any case, the fight does not look good for Mialee.....it will take her several hits to kill Ember, but he only needs to hit her once or twice.

[Eldariel]

Isn't level 7 when Wizards can cast Polymorph, a spell one has very little reason not to prepare? Provided he doesn't die before he can cast a spell, I highly doubt a Monk's ability to beat e.Wizard + Familiar as Remorhazes (a level 7 Wizard/Familiar Remorhaz has likely 24 AC from Mage Armor + Poly and +19 Grapple - even Enlarged Imp. Grapple Monk with 24 Str can merely match that so against two such checks, getting pinned is pretty likely).

That's one spell, mind. As a bonus, a Remorhaz has a burrow speed so Polymorph -> Move allows a Wizard to rather freely determine the terms of the engagement (though given the appropriate terrain and no initial commitment to the fight, a Monk could possibly outrun the Wizard as Remorhaz doesn't lend itself well to casting more spells; it's only 70 rounds of running for the spell to run out, after all).

Of course, the difference in killing ability further grows massively if the Wizard uses e.g. Invisibility or Fly/Alter Self to cast more spells. The only way a Monk could win that fight is winning initiative, being in range for an attack on the first round, landing it and making it impossible for a Wizard to cast spell.


Level 5 isn't much better, really, because the Monk has a very difficult time of stopping the Wizard from making himself untouchable long enough to cast a billion spells that do ridiculous things. The bottomline is that if the Wizard is casting spells, he's doing way more powerful things than the Monk which means the fight goes his way very likely.

The difference is that the "I can beat you in your own game with one spell"-button that is Polymorph isn't in game yet so the Wizard would probably be forced to actually do the killing in a more oldfashioned manner. But we can probably agree that if your opponent can affect you but you cannot affect them, you are unlikely to be victorious.

[Hiro Protagonest]

-snip-

First things first. EMBER IS A GIRL. :smallannoyed:

Mialee's the boy. :smalltongue:

Second. You're assuming all the monk's rolls are above 10, all the monk's attack rolls are above 12, and that Mialee doesn't have the hands-down best 3rd level core (and probably non-core) spell, Fly, or any defensive spell (Mage Armor, Shield, Blur, Invisibility, Displacement).

[CodeRed]

First things first. EMBER IS A GIRL. :smallannoyed:

Mialee's the boy. :smalltongue:

Second. You're assuming all the monk's rolls are above 10, all the monk's attack rolls are above 12, and that Mialee doesn't have the hands-down best 3rd level core (and probably non-core) spell, Fly, or any defensive spell (Mage Armor, Shield, Blur, Invisibility, Displacement).

Mialee is supposed to be a chick but that one Heroes of Battle picture certainly makes her look like a dude...

[Hiro Protagonest]

Mialee is supposed to be a chick but that one Heroes of Battle picture certainly makes her look like a dude...

Hence the emoticon.

[Adindra]

what was said

from a non optimized standpoint there are many many more options that what you listed, for instance

my goblin wiz/arch theurge that im currently playing (yes i know theurges but its fun) was running and still is running web for most of his second level slots even at a much higher level. I cant tell you how many battles were ended just with a single use of that one spell, even if the enemy makes the reflex save the rest of the effects essentially negate any melee based enemy. (running improved initiative for a plus 11 to go first always helped me out too though ^.^ )

[Lord Raziere]

It may be... but the DM entered our world with a hypothesis -- and you don't test an objective hypothesis with houserules.

no, it sounds like you are entering his world and trying to ruin what he likes with a bunch of math and statistics.

and he is the DM. he doesn't care for "testing" or "hypothesis". to him, its not objective, or a science, or anything TESTABLE. All you are going to accomplish is him saying "Not In My Game. Moving on…" and your done.

Seriously, objective hypothesis? this is a game! its not real! the very definition of "subjective"! your testing things in your imaginations! and since the rules can be changed with a simple word of the DM, they are not valid at all! its your imagination vs. his! there is no evidence! just math! the very rules you "test" on are changeable! your not testing against one man's "illusion" or anything, your testing your rules against his rules! and his rules aren't yours!

pit illusion against illusion and all you get, is nothing! you won't prove anything! Let. It. Go.

[Randomguy]

I think any decent played caster should be able to beat a monk. If you don't want to go into pvp, just point out some of the monk's weak points: Can't use fast movement and flurry at the same time, low BAB means it's hard to hit, many abilites that need high ranks, not enough skill points to do that much awesome monk stuff and that they either can't grapple on casters (Like against a druid or melee cleric) or the casters can teleport away. Slow fall is worse than feather fall even at level 20, damage reduction/magic is nearly useless at level 20 since everything except for animals have magic weapons by then, different ki-strike things can be replicated by magic items, casters get tongue of the sun and the moon earlier in the form of speak with animals plus comprehend languages, perfect self means monks can't benefit from spells like enlarge person, abundant step is only once per day while casters can teleport more often, and so on.

Then point out the defences a caster has: Displacement, blur, invisibility, mirror image, blink, fly (Monks can get this at higher levels when they can afford it, but at lower levels it's a big advantage), wind wall against ranged attacks, summoning monsters who can deal damage, how casters with spell penetration can beat a monk's spell resistance more often than not (and even then still 50/50 chance), some spells without saving throws, some spells without spell resistance, healing for divine casters or bards, true strike lets a caster hit unless the monk has an ungodly AC.

Ultimately though, it doesn't really matter if your GM thinks that monks are better. Especially when he isn't 100% wrong: In core only, at mid levels, a well played monk can use fast movement, hide and move silently to close in on a wizard/sorcerer and hit him with stunning fist. While the caster's stunned, the monk can flurry a few times, and with luck, drop the caster. Especially if the caster isn't very well played: Blasting and save or dies both work badly against monks. It won't work on all casters though, only those with poor fortitude saves. And it certainly wouldn't be easy.

But you can just agree to disagree.

[dextercorvia]

no, it sounds like you are entering his world and trying to ruin what he likes with a bunch of math and statistics.

and he is the DM. he doesn't care for "testing" or "hypothesis". to him, its not objective, or a science, or anything TESTABLE. All you are going to accomplish is him saying "Not In My Game. Moving on…" and your done.

Seriously, objective hypothesis? this is a game! its not real! the very definition of "subjective"! your testing things in your imaginations! and since the rules can be changed with a simple word of the DM, they are not valid at all! its your imagination vs. his! there is no evidence! just math! the very rules you "test" on are changeable! your not testing against one man's "illusion" or anything, your testing your rules against his rules! and his rules aren't yours!

pit illusion against illusion and all you get, is nothing! you won't prove anything! Let. It. Go.

He didn't say that Monks rule in his Houseruled Demiplane of Fun in His Way. He said that a core monk can beat a core spellcaster. Period. So, if there is but one core spellcaster that his core monk can't beat -- his statement is inaccurate. Since we don't actually know what Deeim McHousrule would rule in his game, we choose to take the rules of the game at face value.

But, by your logic, I can retreat to my happy houserule land and argue that he is wrong because all spellcasters get double spell slots and automatic freedom of movement. They also don't need to rest or study to rejuvenate their spells, and can choose from any book spontaneously rather than prepare. Oh, and since someone ruined my game with a Monk once, I took away all of the class features, they are now 1/2 HD Warriors with all bad saves and a 1d2 HD.

[Hiro Protagonest]

no, it sounds like you are entering his world and trying to ruin what he likes with a bunch of math and statistics.

and he is the DM. he doesn't care for "testing" or "hypothesis". to him, its not objective, or a science, or anything TESTABLE. All you are going to accomplish is him saying "Not In My Game. Moving on…" and your done.

Seriously, objective hypothesis? this is a game! its not real! the very definition of "subjective"! your testing things in your imaginations! and since the rules can be changed with a simple word of the DM, they are not valid at all! its your imagination vs. his! there is no evidence! just math! the very rules you "test" on are changeable! your not testing against one man's "illusion" or anything, your testing your rules against his rules! and his rules aren't yours!

pit illusion against illusion and all you get, is nothing! you won't prove anything! Let. It. Go.

It doesn't matter if he's the DM. This is a matter of the rules of the game, not a matter of his game.

[bobthe6th]

it assumes that it is in an arena incredibly in favor of Ember actually. not only is it time off, so the wizard has no buffs up. not only is it in a tight space were the Melee gets to step into the casters face. it is also in one of the few situations that using nothing in a fight is a benefit. in much the same way a fighter can kick a wizards behind, it dosn't apply as a blanket statment.

[Lord Raziere]

It doesn't matter if he's the DM. This is a matter of the rules of the game, not a matter of his game.

No, it doesn't matter if its the rules of the game, he is the DM, he makes them.

[A_S]

No, it doesn't matter if its the rules of the game, he is the DM, he makes them.

It comes down to which of the possible interpretations the DM's initial statement was meant to convey:

-"I think monks ought to be able to beat casters so I'm going to interpret the rules such that they can."

...or...

-"I think, given my understanding of the rules of the game, that monks are able to beat wizards under the auspices of those rules."

If he meant the first, you're right; there's no way to demonstrate that he's wrong, because he won't let himself be wrong. However, given what the OP said, my best guess is that he meant the second, in which case he is simply incorrect. You may be right that he will simply refuse to accept that he's incorrect, but...the OP asked how to demonstrate that he's wrong. The posts in this thread are, by and large, totally valid responses to that request. The fact that he's the DM doesn't make him automatically correct about the RAW, it just makes his rulings within his game ironclad.

[Psyren]

No, it doesn't matter if its the rules of the game, he is the DM, he makes them.

The DM makes his table's rules. What he doesn't make is RAW.

[The Glyphstone]

Great Modthulhu: Hey look, it's Monkday again.:smallcool:

But seriously, less than 2 pages in and we're already treading the same tired dance steps we've done a dozen times before. Every time, tempers push to where someone gets an infraction that could have been avoided, so I'm going to take initiative this time and shut it down before anyone gets hurt.

OP - might I suggest doing a Search for 'monk vs. wizard', or variations of the phrase? We literally have one of these every two weeks or so - the most recent was here, and pretty much every solution, suggestion, or argument to be attempted or made can be found there.