About roleplaying and stereotypes

[Dazed&Confused]

I'm currently playing a cloistered cleric of Mystra - the stereotype pleases me, since I've always liked mages over every other class in the game(including clerics). Since he has a high CHA, I'm quite polite when I want to, educated and all that; however, in combat, I'm extremely provocative and rude with sort of a megalomania - I think of myself as much stronger than all my enemies and I'm always showing that to them. That is, if they miss attacks(and they usually do), I make fun of them. If I resist the spell(and I usually do), I spit on the ground and tell him to come at me harder.

Now my DM has started giving me roleplaying xp penalties; according to him, I'm very wise and charismatic and a student, therefore I just can't act like that in combat. I argue saying that is a stereotype; I act "charismaticaly" and polite when it matters, but if anyone tries to do something to me and fails at it, I'm going to pick at him hard. It's the best for the party also, since the other players are not as resilient as I am(lvl 10, AC usually 30-38, touch usually 25+, resistances usually 16/16/26 with a ring of evasion, always debuffing enemies), and if they focus me my friends get free time. I tell him that's the way MY character acts because it satisfies his enormous ego and helps the party, and that I shouldn't care about stereotypes as long as I'm not completely negating my ways - never engaging in evil acts(true neutral), never talking sh1t when it's not called for, never more of a kind person than an evil one, etc. Still he wants to penalize me and wants me to interpret the character in another way.

I wanna know who you agree with, just so I can decide if I just change it already or try to keep talking to him. In my head I just think he's getting pissed at not being able to kill me that fast, and taking it personally.

[Mr. Zolrane]

stereotype

You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means. I believe what you're trying to say is that his persona in battle serves one aspect of his personality, and his out of battle persona serves another, and that one of them is merely a facade or a useful affected mannerism, yes?

If that's the case, I see absolutely nothing wrong with how you're playing your guy, at least based on what you've told us here. As long as you're not behaving a certain way just because it's convenient, and it's a function of the character, then you're fine.

As for your DM's motivation, if he is, as you suspect, merely perturbed that he can't kill you, I would share with him a lesson I learned DMing my first campaign:

His goal should not be killing the players just to kill the players. That's adversarial DMing, and it is no bueno. His job as the DM is to provide fun for the players, and his fun should flow directly from their fun. Any other way you run into very serious problems. That's what I learned, very nearly the hard way. My players didn't quit, but the prospect was seriously discussed and no DM wants that.

If you suspect he feels that way, don't keep it to yourself. Confront him about it in private, and be sure to keep an open mind.

That's all I have for you; I'm out for now.

[Hirax]

Yoda and Palpatine are both perfect examples of people that are polite, demure, and gregarious, but sure as hell can unleash the fury.

[Tebryn]

Ya, if he's saying that a person can't have a different attitude during different situations I think you should politely point out that it's a load of crap.

[Dazed&Confused]

You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means. I believe what you're trying to say is that his persona in battle serves one aspect of his personality, and his out of battle persona serves another, and that one of them is merely a facade or a useful affected mannerism, yes?

That aspect of his personality is shown even outside combat(he doesn't have a double personality, after all), however he never talks to friendly targets in demeaning ways - but any kind of compliment he receives is followed up by a "I know I am", or "that wasn't difficult, it was quite easy, actually". And in combat, although he does always assume he can beat whatever comes in front of him and it's not obviously more powerful than him, he always starts a little calm; the sh1t talk only comes if he realizes the people are not significantly hurting him or not hurting at all. He's a d1ck, really.

Btw, the DM also said it's not "wise" because it "enfuriates" the enemies. I'd like to know why throwing enemies off balance isn't wise or smart :smallconfused:

The stereotype word is used because he wants me to match the "student and wise cleric" stereotype perfectly. Like... more reserved, never careless and so on.


If that's the case, I see absolutely nothing wrong with how you're playing your guy, at least based on what you've told us here. As long as you're not behaving a certain way just because it's convenient, and it's a function of the character, then you're fine.

As for your DM's motivation, if he is, as you suspect, merely perturbed that he can't kill you, I would share with him a lesson I learned DMing my first campaign:

His goal should not be killing the players just to kill the players. That's adversarial DMing, and it is no bueno. His job as the DM is to provide fun for the players, and his fun should flow directly from their fun. Any other way you run into very serious problems. That's what I learned, very nearly the hard way. My players didn't quit, but the prospect was seriously discussed and no DM wants that.

If you suspect he feels that way, don't keep it to yourself. Confront him about it in private, and be sure to keep an open mind.

That's all I have for you; I'm out for now.

It's not just that he can't kill me(he can though, a disintegrate almost killed me today), it might be the situation, I'm provoking a lot and he gets ****ed up by the dice(I saved the whole group from a Beholder casting a Wrack - he rolled 2 on the save). Must add up or something.

[The Underlord]

Complaining OOC is one thing, but giving exp penalties because the roleplaying just doesnt feel right to him? Seriously? Say he has some sort of insanity(can't think of any on the top of my head) that would explain that.

Somewhat unrelated point. Aren't most of histories dicatators kind of like that?

[Mr. Zolrane]

Btw, the DM also said it's not "wise" because it "enfuriates" the enemies. I'd like to know why throwing enemies off balance isn't wise or smart :smallconfused:

The stereotype word is used because he wants me to match the "student and wise cleric" stereotype perfectly. Like... more reserved, never careless and so on.

Oh, okay, that makes more sense. Yeah, requiring a player to RP mental stats is asinine (Physical stats are a different matter; if you're not strong enough to lift it you're not strong enough to lift it). Just 'cause the Barbarian dumped Int, doesn't mean he should be penalized for coming up with a clever plan (or for that matter if he dumped Cha, doesn't mean he can't be stately and polite when he's not busting heads).



It's not just that he can't kill me(he can though, a disintegrate almost killed me today), it might be the situation, I'm provoking a lot and he gets ****ed up by the dice(I saved the whole group from a Beholder casting a Wrack - he rolled 2 on the save). Must add up or something.

I don't know then. Whatever it is, it smells of adversarial DMing and it's something you should address, firmly but tactfully.

[Qwertystop]

Oh, okay, that makes more sense. Yeah, requiring a player to RP mental stats is asinine (Physical stats are a different matter; if you're not strong enough to lift it you're not strong enough to lift it). Just 'cause the Barbarian dumped Int, doesn't mean he should be penalized for coming up with a clever plan (or for that matter if he dumped Cha, doesn't mean he can't be stately and polite when he's not busting heads).



I don't know then. Whatever it is, it smells of adversarial DMing and it's something you should address, firmly but tactfully.

I say it's not too bad to want RP of low mental stats (though flashes of bypassing it up to "mildly clever" should be allowed). Requiring RP of high ones, on the other hand, is just crazy. If your Cleric has 18 Wis, that's on the order of some of the wisest religious figures ever (specifically not mentioning any individual religion). How would you be expected to represent that? It's like pretending to be a genius when you're a high school dropout, and not being a parody.

[Dazed&Confused]

I say it's not too bad to want RP of low mental stats (though flashes of bypassing it up to "mildly clever" should be allowed). Requiring RP of high ones, on the other hand, is just crazy. If your Cleric has 18 Wis, that's on the order of some of the wisest religious figures ever (specifically not mentioning any individual religion). How would you be expected to represent that? It's like pretending to be a genius when you're a high school dropout, and not being a parody.

Yea, imagine someone representing a 30 Int grey elf wizard :p Actually, when he said that wasn't how a wise person acted, I asked him to tell me just how that would be. He stopped for 1 second and then said: "I'm not gonna tell you". Probably has no idea besides his image of a tranquil old guy :smalltongue:

Ok, seeing that most people agree with me and also the other players in the group, I'm gonna talk to him later. We're gonna meet again on Monday and I'll bump this thread to tell you what happened.

I'm almost certain it's not gonna work though, he's really hard to convince of a lot of things. These dam.n mathmaticians, always thinking the world is black and white!(joke, ok?) But I'll try.

[Icestorm245]

You are very wise and charismatic; in fact, wise enough to be polite and eloquent when the situation calls for it, and wise enough to use the same charisma in combat when taunting your enemies. I think you're playing your character very well. A character with a high wisdom WILL know his strengths and weaknesses.

As for your DM... I think he may be taking your words, even though they are directed at your enemies in the game, to heart and feels that you may be picking on him. I would try to solve this by getting him alone and telling him that you're sorry if anything you have said has offended him, and that it was your cleric, not you, speaking to his enemies, not him (the DM).

[vitkiraven]

Could they be talking all of the smack talking personally, and just not be able to find a way to suitably challenge the group, resulting in feelings of weakness and incompetence, on their part?
I am not trying to disparage the DM, but many people could justifiably suffer from that. It might be that no matter what they try to do, this one character is shutting down anything you are trying to do to challenge the group as a whole.
I am in no way agreeing with the DM in question docking experience points from you. It is the DM's perogative if they feel that you are not roleplaying to what they feels your character stat/align/background/what have You, to not provide you with extra roleplaying experience, but docking you experience from what you should get is definitely a no no.
Traditionally, roleplaying experience is a DM fiat anyway, so if they wanted to be ponce, they could be adding in some arbitrary amount of RP exp, and simply not give you that and it would be technically legit.
Now if they are docking the experience because the encounter is not as hard as it should be based on the CR, that might be something. From what it sounds like, your character is giving every indication that, unfortunately.
It almost sounds to me like your character is inverting the adversarial DM trope to be trash talking team monster, but I am an outside observer, so my insights are not valid.

Tldr, no, they should not dock BASE exp. That isn't cool. If they chooses to not award you rp exp, that's on them.

[Howler Dagger]

Somewhat unrelated point. Aren't most of histories dicatators kind of like that?

Since when do dictators give exp penalties for not role-playiing right?:smallconfused:

It is YOUR character and YOUR role-playing. Wise and charismatic=/=not being rude sometimes.

[Dazed&Confused]

Could they be talking all of the smack talking personally, and just not be able to find a way to suitably challenge the group, resulting in feelings of weakness and incompetence, on their part?
I am not trying to disparage the DM, but many people could justifiably suffer from that. It might be that no matter what they try to do, this one character is shutting down anything you are trying to do to challenge the group as a whole.

Wait, no! First, I doubt he really has feelings of weakness and incompetence, we are both the biggest optimizers in our group, and he actually puts up really challenging stuff - two people were turned to stone today, and I almost died, if it wasn't for his awful roll everyone could have died, including me. And second, the group as a whole is really strong. Even our two fighters have all their weaknesses beaten by the buffs and their physical stats are crazy good. He actually thinks our main fighter is "getting too strong" - come on, you gotta be afraid when something comes at you with SR 25(yay for me) and Free Movement+Flight+Haste, hitting for 35+ each attack at 17-20 criticals. The other fighter has a bit less damage(he's not an exotic weapon master yet), but he's got a Hexblade/Blackguard combo and spells don't hit him so easily, plus he has a higher AC - with Recitation he's virtually immune to most spells that require saves. And I'm not the standard buffing-myself-and-raping-people kind of cleric, I'm only a debuffer/buffer/healer boosting my AC and resistances, I have never even cast Divine Power or Righteous Might. I almost died a lot of times aswell, he's good at exploring our weakness without getting cheesy. I guess it's just his bad luck that pisses him off, and when my char talks like that in game he might take it to himself, plus our main fighter is kinda noisy when he scores criticals(he does have a good luck) and it could be adding up aswell. But it's just the thrill of the game, man :(


I am in no way agreeing with the DM in question docking experience points from you. It is the DM's perogative if they feel that you are not roleplaying to what they feels your character stat/align/background/what have You, to not provide you with extra roleplaying experience, but docking you experience from what you should get is definitely a no no.
Traditionally, roleplaying experience is a DM fiat anyway, so if they wanted to be ponce, they could be adding in some arbitrary amount of RP exp, and simply not give you that and it would be technically legit.

Oh, I gave you the wrong idea. The penalty in on the RP xp, not a base xp penalty based on bad RP. But everything is matching my character, that's the problem. He's always acted this way, he's always thought high of himself, and since my first fight I've sh1t-talked my enemies. It's written on the background that he is really narcisistic aswell, and that was worsened due to the fact that he's a human who lived some time with Sun Elves and even saved one of their cities, becoming a Ruathar - being a human treated as a hero by sun elves, of all people, is really something that makes you feel like a lot. Anyway, I'm full of plausible explanations for this particular side of my character.


Now if they are docking the experience because the encounter is not as hard as it should be based on the CR, that might be something. From what it sounds like, your character is giving every indication that, unfortunately.
It almost sounds to me like your character is inverting the adversarial DM trope to be trash talking team monster, but I am an outside observer, so my insights are not valid.

The CR's from the sourcebooks are really not matching our group if he doesn't buff the monsters, you're right there. But he's openly doing that; monsters got 75% hp, when giving xp he considers the group a 10th-level one even though the majority is of lvl 9 players, he trades monster talents for more powerful ones(toughness is always traded, for instance), almost every fighter has Combat Reflexes(so he can hit every PC who comes near), and so on.

[slaydemons]

It is YOUR character and YOUR role-playing. Wise and charismatic=/=not being rude sometimes.

this is perfect.

also this sums up my feelings:


Another useful application of this concept involves accepting story hooks your DM gives to you. Try to never just say, "My character isn't interested in that adventure." A lot of people mistake this for good roleplaying, because you are asserting your character's personality. Wrong. Good roleplaying should never bring the game to a screeching halt. One of your jobs as a player is to come up with a reason why your character would be interested in a plot.After all, your personality is entirely in your hands, not the DM's. Come up with a reason why the adventure (or the reward) might appeal to you, no matter how esoteric or roundabout the reasoning.


Right from the giants mouth, in this page. As to not take credit (http://www.giantitp.com/articles/tll307KmEm4H9k6efFP.html)


Edit: I edited so you know what part I am mentioning as for putting up the whole paragraph so you don't think I am taking out of context.

[Dazed&Confused]

Omg, I typed too much...

[vitkiraven]

Wait, no! First, I doubt he really has feelings of weakness and incompetence, we are both the biggest optimizers in our group, and he actually puts up really challenging stuff - two people were turned to stone today, and I almost died, if it wasn't for his awful roll everyone could have died, including me. And second, the group as a whole is really strong. Even our two fighters have all their weaknesses beaten by the buffs and their physical stats are crazy good. He actually thinks our main fighter is "getting too strong" - come on, you gotta be afraid when something comes at you with SR 25(yay for me) and Free Movement+Flight+Haste, hitting for 35+ each attack at 17-20 criticals. The other fighter has a bit less damage(he's not an exotic weapon master yet), but he's got a Hexblade/Blackguard combo and spells don't hit him so easily, plus he has a higher AC - with Recitation he's virtually immune to most spells that require saves. And I'm not the standard buffing-myself-and-raping-people kind of cleric, I'm only a debuffer/buffer/healer boosting my AC and resistances, I have never even cast Divine Power or Righteous Might. I almost died a lot of times aswell, he's good at exploring our weakness without getting cheesy. I guess it's just his bad luck that pisses him off, and when my char talks like that in game he might take it to himself, plus our main fighter is kinda noisy when he scores criticals(he does have a good luck) and it could be adding up aswell. But it's just the thrill of the game, man :(

That might be, and if it is, then all is good. I just think that the stress of constantly having to counter-optimize to deal with the party's high level of optimization, and coupling that with all of the trash talk (admittedly some is coming from a fighter, although they are usually known to be the trash talkers) might weigh heavily, although he might be getting frazzled, without even knowing it. I know there are times that I became frazzled when players in my campaigns started doing things that were far and away above what I could foresee them doing, and I had to extremely carefully juggle the monsters that they would encounter so as to not kill them (automatically), but rather challenge them sufficiently. Ego, however unrecognized, can play a part subconsciously.


Oh, I gave you the wrong idea. The penalty in on the RP xp, not a base xp penalty based on bad RP. But everything is matching my character, that's the problem. He's always acted this way, he's always thought high of himself, and since my first fight I've sh1t-talked my enemies. It's written on the background that he is really narcisistic aswell, and that was worsened due to the fact that he's a human who lived some time with Sun Elves and even saved one of their cities, becoming a Ruathar - being a human treated as a hero by sun elves, of all people, is really something that makes you feel like a lot. Anyway, I'm full of plausible explanations for this particular side of my character.

To be removed from the status of N'tel Quessir is a very big deal, and I would recognize that some achievement like that would quite likely go to a person's head. I can only remember one person in all of the Forgotten Realms that acquired that status without being a chosen or similar level person. That your character accomplished this is phenomenal. And he has every right to be boisterous about this. I have no qualms about this, and the DM probably wouldn't either. I think the main crux of the matter is that you alternate to a pleasant persona when not in these situations. It might be the vast dichotomy that has your DM in a bit of a tizzy.
To go from Pleasant to a Pr1ck in what can be as short of a period of time as 6 seconds can be a bit off-putting for someone to cognitively process. It might also be that the DM has had experience with people of that sort before, and that this kind of thing grates on him, even if subconsciously. The best thing to do would be what others have suggested, and I believe you are already planning to do, and ask the DM if he does have a problem with this copious amounts of disrespect that his encounters are receiving.



The CR's from the sourcebooks are really not matching our group if he doesn't buff the monsters, you're right there. But he's openly doing that; monsters got 75% hp, when giving xp he considers the group a 10th-level one even though the majority is of lvl 9 players, he trades monster talents for more powerful ones(toughness is always traded, for instance), almost every fighter has Combat Reflexes(so he can hit every PC who comes near), and so on.

While that is a good step, and definitely a needed one, it is also a LOT of homework to do for setting up an encounter like that. It sounds like he carefully weighs a lot of stuff to make sure that he has the challenge level "right". This can lead to a lot of feelings of inadequacy, especially if one has a reputation as an optimizer. To have one's optimize-fu be ridiculed by a character while one is trying to ensure that you don't outright kill the characters can be a bitter pill to swallow. All of that optimizing has to be redone when another ability surfaces in the group, which invalidates the previous setup. From my experience, a lot of work can go into getting the challenges just right, and as long as the danger level is right, I commend him, and recommend that he stay away from the Dragonstar 3rd party expansion. It's just bad news. Although Call of Cthulhu might not be so bad. (But no Breath of the Deep).

And don't worry about typing too much. Not leaving out information can be important to finding the root of problems. :smallsmile:

[Mr. Zolrane]

As for your DM... I think he may be taking your words, even though they are directed at your enemies in the game, to heart and feels that you may be picking on him. I would try to solve this by getting him alone and telling him that you're sorry if anything you have said has offended him, and that it was your cleric, not you, speaking to his enemies, not him (the DM).

This.

Also, in reference to this and other similar concerns expressed by other posters, let me just say this. There is a tendency as a DM to make your identity "DM." That's dangerous territory, when you put your identity in anything so shaky.

Don't take that as condescension by the way, I'm not trying to talk down to your DM, I've been there. I'm speaking from experience.

[nedz]

It is YOUR character and YOUR role-playing. Wise and charismatic=/=not being rude sometimes.

This

I've been DMing for a very long time, and I never give RP xp either way.
Its a nice idea, but it just causes rancour.
One persons idea of good RP != another persons idea of good RP.
I suspect that this is what is annoying you.

It can also lead to perceptions of favouratism.
RP should be its own reward.

[Mr. Zolrane]

This

I've been DMing for a very long time, and I never give RP xp either way.
Its a nice idea, but it just causes rancour.
One persons idea of good RP != another persons idea of good RP.
I suspect that this is what is annoying you.

It can also lead to perceptions of favouratism.
RP should be its own reward.

While I do see some merit to that school of thought, RP xp has its uses. The people who RP for its own sake will do so regardless of the DM's stance toward such things, and you don't have to worry about them either way. However (and I have at least one instance I could cite to back this up) RP xp can be a good way to get those who don't RP all that much; those who tend to rest on their laurels until it comes time to murder things and/or take their stuff will sometimes take the initiative to get in there and ham it up.

That said, I don't even award xp at all anymore, I just level the party up every so often. It cuts out a lot of the hassle for me and them.

[Rubik]

Actually, I wouldn't worry about the RP XP penalty too much, if you're getting normal XP at the normal rate.

After all, you'll get extra XP when you're a level behind, which means you might actually end up with more than the rest of the party in the end, assuming you use the standard XP calculation process.

Just keep doing what you're doing. You sound like you're doing a decent job of it.

[Dazed&Confused]

Actually, I wouldn't worry about the RP XP penalty too much, if you're getting normal XP at the normal rate.

After all, you'll get extra XP when you're a level behind, which means you might actually end up with more than the rest of the party in the end, assuming you use the standard XP calculation process.

Just keep doing what you're doing. You sound like you're doing a decent job of it.

Actually, I don't care much about the XP. It's not a big bonus, and he doesn't check our XP so often; I also have craft feats, so my XP is always a mess. Since it's a small difference and no one can calculate my XP without taking a very big list of notes, I can cheat whenever I think he's being unfair without any risks, hahah :smallbiggrin:

But his complaints when we're playing, those are the real problems! Of course, following the rule always feels better, so I'd rather have him give me fair XP; but what really bothers me is when he tells me I'm "doing it wrong" :smalltongue:

[Rubik]

If having a multidimensional, multifaceted character to roleplay is wrong, I sure as hell don't want to be right.

[Telonius]

I'm currently playing a cloistered cleric of Mystra - the stereotype pleases me, since I've always liked mages over every other class in the game(including clerics). Since he has a high CHA, I'm quite polite when I want to, educated and all that; however, in combat, I'm extremely provocative and rude with sort of a megalomania - I think of myself as much stronger than all my enemies and I'm always showing that to them. That is, if they miss attacks(and they usually do), I make fun of them. If I resist the spell(and I usually do), I spit on the ground and tell him to come at me harder.

Now my DM has started giving me roleplaying xp penalties; according to him, I'm very wise and charismatic and a student, therefore I just can't act like that in combat. I argue saying that is a stereotype; I act "charismaticaly" and polite when it matters, but if anyone tries to do something to me and fails at it, I'm going to pick at him hard.

Charisma is not "acting polite." It's your force of personality, your ability to project your will onto others. This might mean that you get them to be your friend, or it might mean that you get them to embarrass themselves. A person that gets under his opponents' skin by mocking them is not a low-charisma person. He knows how to push people's buttons.

In fact, I'd even say that a person who's any good at diplomacy is going to be good at making people mad when it suits his purpose. If you want to use diplomacy to stop a conflict, you have to avoid doing things that annoy the other person. How are you going to do that, unless you know what those things are? And if you know what will annoy the other person, it's not that much of a stretch to see that you can use that knowledge to incite violence as well as squelch it.

[Prospector]

In one group we solved the problem of RP xp by leaving it to the players. The players at the end of a session vote good RPing or problem solving. Granted the DM determines the amount, but no one felt anyone else was being favored. And it in couraged players to role-play.

[Lonely Tylenol]

Charisma is not "acting polite." It's your force of personality, your ability to project your will onto others. This might mean that you get them to be your friend, or it might mean that you get them to embarrass themselves. A person that gets under his opponents' skin by mocking them is not a low-charisma person. He knows how to push people's buttons.

In fact, I'd even say that a person who's any good at diplomacy is going to be good at making people mad when it suits his purpose. If you want to use diplomacy to stop a conflict, you have to avoid doing things that annoy the other person. How are you going to do that, unless you know what those things are? And if you know what will annoy the other person, it's not that much of a stretch to see that you can use that knowledge to incite violence as well as squelch it.

It is precisely this. Note that Intimidate is also a CHA-based skill.