A build for a conservative group

[Master Thrower]

Hello playground, I have just joined a new dnd group, and have gotten the lock picking character role. However not many books are open ( hence conservative part) only allowing PHB,DMG,MM and the CA,CD,CW,CadV.

Anyways I decided to make an arcane rogue, going more arcane then rogue as I really only need to be able to disarm magical traps. So my build is

Rogue 1/ Spell Thief 1/ Wizard 5/Arcane trickster 8 Archmage 5

Were starting at level 12, and doing a very speed game to 20.

Any advice on race, feats, spells, and if I should specialize or not.
Thanks playground

[Blyte]

If you are filling the rogue slot I suggest at least gaining evasion. Sometimes to disarm those traps you have to jump through them.

[Rapidghoul]

First and foremost: fight for Master Spellthief (http://dnd.savannahsoft.eu/feat-1891-master-spellthief.html). It's from Complete Scoundrel, but considering it is literally built for the spellthief and likely only showed up in Complete Scoundrel rather than Complete Adventurer because they couldn't think it up in time, your DM might allow it. It's really essential for any spellthief.

Check ambush feats in case any strike your fancy. Arcane Strike (http://dnd.savannahsoft.eu/feat-103-arcane-strike.html) is very handy. Be sure to pick up arcane thief's tools if your DM will allow an item from the MIC (burn spells to grant bonus on Open Lock and Disable Device).

If you want your spells to be stealthy and such, then some obvious picks are Invisibility, Silence, etc. are good. I notice NONE of your classes have strong Fort saves, so be sure to compensate for that somehow (Bear's Endurance for instance).
A fun trick I've grown fond of is using Benign Transposition (1st level Conjuration spell). It switches any two friendly and willing targets within 100+10ft/level instantaneously without attacks of opportunity. Send your familiar (I suggest a Humming Bird) somewhere you want to be unnoticed, and switch places. Or send your bird above a foe and have your big burly fighter switch places with it for a surprise attack. You could also get a Rat for +2 Fort saves and the sneaky theme.

For race, the best would be Whisper Gnome from RoS, but if you're limited to MM... Tiefling might work nicely. +2 Dex, +2 Int, -2 Cha, darkvision, +2 bonus on Bluff and Hide, Resistance to cold 5, electricity 5, and fire 5, and Darkness 1/day. For +1 level adjustment, it's probably one of the better options for you. Otherwise, just go with Halfling (for sneaking) or Gnome (for illusion magic).

[Master Thrower]

First and foremost: fight for Master Spellthief (http://dnd.savannahsoft.eu/feat-1891-master-spellthief.html). It's from Complete Scoundrel, but considering it is literally built for the spellthief and likely only showed up in Complete Scoundrel rather than Complete Adventurer because they couldn't think it up in time, your DM might allow it. It's really essential for any spellthief.

Check ambush feats in case any strike your fancy. Arcane Strike (http://dnd.savannahsoft.eu/feat-103-arcane-strike.html) is very handy. Be sure to pick up arcane thief's tools if your DM will allow an item from the MIC (burn spells to grant bonus on Open Lock and Disable Device).

If you want your spells to be stealthy and such, then some obvious picks are Invisibility, Silence, etc. are good. I notice NONE of your classes have strong Fort saves, so be sure to compensate for that somehow (Bear's Endurance for instance).
A fun trick I've grown fond of is using Benign Transposition (1st level Conjuration spell). It switches any two friendly and willing targets within 100+10ft/level instantaneously without attacks of opportunity. Send your familiar (I suggest a Humming Bird) somewhere you want to be unnoticed, and switch places. Or send your bird above a foe and have your big burly fighter switch places with it for a surprise attack. You could also get a Rat for +2 Fort saves and the sneaky theme.

For race, the best would be Whisper Gnome from RoS, but if you're limited to MM... Tiefling might work nicely. +2 Dex, +2 Int, -2 Cha, darkvision, +2 bonus on Bluff and Hide, Resistance to cold 5, electricity 5, and fire 5, and Darkness 1/day. For +1 level adjustment, it's probably one of the better options for you. Otherwise, just go with Halfling (for sneaking) or Gnome (for illusion magic).

Well tiefling has +1 LA and I don't want to lose any class levels. But to deal with the poor fort save I'm planning on having a headband of concious effort, which lets me substitute a concentration check in place of a fort save.

And master spell thief has been banned, I asked and it wasnt allowed. The group isn't very high op, so i figured my build would suffice

[hex0]

Without master spellthief, there isn't much point to playing a Spellthief (or dipping it). Spellthief can solo qualify for Arcane Trickster for 12th level, or Daggerspell Mage after 5th level if you take Practiced Spellcaster. However you'd have to ask your DM if you can continue Steal Spell progression :/ Impromptu Sneak Attack is great for auto-stealing spells though.

Spellthief 5/Daggerspell Mage 7 would be good, or Spellthief 7/Daggerspell Mage 5 would give you Absorb Spell

Daggerspell Mage is generally better than Arcane Trickster, though you could have both later on.

Rogue (or Spellthief) 1/Wizard 4/Daggerspell Mage 7 would work.

And yes, fight for Master Spellthief. Maybe fight for Trapsmith if you really want to ultimate trap dude.

[Urpriest]

Without master spellthief, there isn't much point to playing a Spellthief (or dipping it). Spellthief can solo qualify for Arcane Trickster for 12th level, or Daggerspell Mage after 5th level if you take Practiced Spellcaster. However you'd have to ask your DM if you can continue Steal Spell progression :/ Impromptu Sneak Attack is great for auto-stealing spells though.

Spellthief 5/Daggerspell Mage 7 would be good, or Spellthief 7/Daggerspell Mage 5 would give you Absorb Spell

Daggerspell Mage is generally better than Arcane Trickster, though you could have both later on.

Rogue (or Spellthief) 1/Wizard 4/Daggerspell Mage 7 would work.

And yes, fight for Master Spellthief. Maybe fight for Trapsmith if you really want to ultimate trap dude.

I considered suggesting this, but here's the thing: both this and the OP's build lose two caster levels. The question then is whether you get more out of the Spellthief level than you do out of Daggerspell Mage vs. Arcane Trickster. Daggerspell Mage's superiority is debatable, and it requires a few weak feats. Plus you'd need to go Wizard 5 first anyway (without Practiced Spellcaster, which with only two caster levels lost is on the border of worthwhile, especially with the other feats spent).

[Master Thrower]

I considered suggesting this, but here's the thing: both this and the OP's build lose two caster levels. The question then is whether you get more out of the Spellthief level than you do out of Daggerspell Mage vs. Arcane Trickster. Daggerspell Mage's superiority is debatable, and it requires a few weak feats. Plus you'd need to go Wizard 5 first anyway (without Practiced Spellcaster, which with only two caster levels lost is on the border of worthwhile, especially with the other feats spent).

So the question becomes do I take a level of spell thief or dagger spell mage for the second d6 of sneak attack. What are the pro's and con's of each?

[hex0]

I considered suggesting this, but here's the thing: both this and the OP's build lose two caster levels. The question then is whether you get more out of the Spellthief level than you do out of Daggerspell Mage vs. Arcane Trickster. Daggerspell Mage's superiority is debatable, and it requires a few weak feats. Plus you'd need to go Wizard 5 first anyway (without Practiced Spellcaster, which with only two caster levels lost is on the border of worthwhile, especially with the other feats spent).

It is still Wizard spellcasting though so even if you are two levels behind, just think of it as being one level behind a Sorcerer for spell level access, then it doesn't seem quite as bad. With

I know that is has been compared a lot but Daggerspell Mage's 'chassis' is much better than Arcane Trickster (d6 HD, Medium BAB and 6 skills vs. low BAB and 4 skills). And the requirements are much easier. Arcane Trickster is going to cost 2 or 3 caster levels as well to get 2d6 Sneak Attack (Rogue 3 or Spellthief 1/Rogue 1).

Either way, this seems to be a pretty low op campaign so playing a Daggerspell Mage wouldn't be the worst thing to do. Haven't heard the rest of the party (not sure if this is known yet), but I get the feeling that with the book limits there aren't going to be too many over-powered builds.

[Urpriest]

So the question becomes do I take a level of spell thief or dagger spell mage for the second d6 of sneak attack. What are the pro's and con's of each?

Spellthief:
Pros:

No prereqs

Cons:

Minimal Benefits: without Master Spellthief all you're doing is stealing 0 or 1st level spells


Daggerspell Mage:
Pros:

If you're already a TWF caster, Daggercast is useful. The other abilities are lackluster, but most are at least a bit useful for a gish

Cons:

Requires Weapon Focus(dagger), Two-Weapon Fighting. Also requires Practiced Spellcaster if you want to enter before Wizard 5.
Worse skill choices (No Search for some reason)

[Cespenar]

Haven't heard the rest of the party (not sure if this is known yet), but I get the feeling that with the book limits there aren't going to be too many over-powered builds.

I'm not an expert optimizer myself, but one thing I keep hearing from people who are is that Core is the most broken of them all.

[hex0]

I'm not an expert optimizer myself, but one thing I keep hearing from people who are is that Core is the most broken of them all.

Depending on which classes are being played. Core Druid? Well, yeah. Core Fighter, heck no. Core+Completes Fighter? slightly better than 'heck no.'

[hex0]

So the question becomes do I take a level of spell thief or dagger spell mage for the second d6 of sneak attack. What are the pro's and con's of each?

To get into Arcane Trickster? If you are going to start DSM, finish it. You are going to be doing TWF as a Rogue anyway, so you need all the BAB you can get.

[Aegis013]

Depending on which classes are being played. Core Druid? Well, yeah. Core Fighter, heck no. Core+Completes Fighter? slightly better than 'heck no.'

Straight druid is probably what I'd do for that role... Need a lock opened? Wildshape into a bear and smash it open! Need a trap disarmed? Summon Nature's Ally! Go my minions! Spring the traps!

Probably not a great idea in a low op group.

[Master Thrower]

Spellthief:
Pros:

No prereqs

Cons:

Minimal Benefits: without Master Spellthief all you're doing is stealing 0 or 1st level spells


Daggerspell Mage:
Pros:

If you're already a TWF caster, Daggercast is useful. The other abilities are lackluster, but most are at least a bit useful for a gish

Cons:

Requires Weapon Focus(dagger), Two-Weapon Fighting. Also requires Practiced Spellcaster if you want to enter before Wizard 5.
Worse skill choices (No Search for some reason)


So it seems that Dagger spell mage is better. So something like
Rogue 1 Wizard 4 DSM 10 Archmage 5?
Should I use archmage? or is it not worth it,
I originally used it to get arcane fire and improtu sneak attack to deal 5d6 Fire with a first level spell and apply 7d6 Sneak attack with it.
So is it not worth it in this build? and if not what should I end the build with? I would like to end with 9th level spells in theory.

Also we play with PrC adding to a class skill list, not replacing so the lack of search does not matter in this case.

Edit: In terms of party make up its-

Fighter/barbarian planning on going bear warrior/warshaper
A wizard, rainbow servant (No early entry tricks)
A cleric planning on dipping a level of monk to then enter Sacred Fist (If there is a table error we play text over table, either way its a full casting class)
Then me who's build is TBD

Also the DM tends to be more by the book, don't mess with stuff, which invariably allows wizards and clerics to have access to the best stuff, for instance IoTSFV is fine as its in a book we use, but because the ACF for barbarians isn't, we can't use it or make an exception cause pounce is "OP"

[Urpriest]

For just Arcane Fire Archmage isn't that worth it. There are lots of ways to blast that can get sneak attack, even with your sources (the Orbs are in CA IIRC). Though really, with that much investment in Daggerspell Mage you really should be primarily TWFing, not ray sniping. So I guess it depends: topping off the build with Arcane Trickster will give you more Sneak Attack and better skill points, and not make you waste a feat on Skill Focus (Spellcraft). Topping off with Archmage could get you Mastery of Shaping, Reach (mostly superfluous if you're going Daggerspell), SLAs of your favorite spell, or some caster level boosts. It depends whether in those levels you'll be more of a primary caster or a melee character.

[Master Thrower]

For just Arcane Fire Archmage isn't that worth it. There are lots of ways to blast that can get sneak attack, even with your sources (the Orbs are in CA IIRC). Though really, with that much investment in Daggerspell Mage you really should be primarily TWFing, not ray sniping. So I guess it depends: topping off the build with Arcane Trickster will give you more Sneak Attack and better skill points, and not make you waste a feat on Skill Focus (Spellcraft). Topping off with Archmage could get you Mastery of Shaping, Reach (mostly superfluous if you're going Daggerspell), SLAs of your favorite spell, or some caster level boosts. It depends whether in those levels you'll be more of a primary caster or a melee character.

Hmm my goal is not primary caster, so ending with arcane trickster? although most of it doesn't help as Im a melee character. Any gish classes that work for this build? at that late do I give up on SA and enter something that advances casting?

[hex0]

Hmm my goal is not primary caster, so ending with arcane trickster? although most of it doesn't help as Im a melee character. Any gish classes that work for this build? at that late do I give up on SA and enter something that advances casting?

Sneaky Gish eh? You'll need a higher BAB.

If you are not going to be a primary caster and there is already a Wizard in your party, why not do Rogue/Bard/Daggerspell Mage instead. You don't have access to Duskblade, unfortunatly, but you do have Hexblade.

[Master Thrower]

Sneaky Gish eh? You'll need a higher BAB.

If you are not going to be a primary caster and there is already a Wizard in your party, why not do Rogue/Bard/Daggerspell Mage instead. You don't have access to Duskblade, unfortunatly, but you do have Hexblade.

Why bard? It makes me need CHA as a stat, and has a worse spell list. Is it something I am missing?

[hex0]

Why bard? It makes me need CHA as a stat, and has a worse spell list. Is it something I am missing?

Higher BAB, weapon prof., more skills, higher HD, better saves...compared to a wizard...and best of all, access to Sublime Chord. :smallwink:

[hex0]

Why bard? It makes me need CHA as a stat, and has a worse spell list. Is it something I am missing?

Compared to a Wizard? Higher HD, skills, BAB, saves, weapon prof.

And best of all access to Sublime Chord? :smallamused:

Edit: Double post-and-reply? :smallconfused:

Anyway, you could go Rogue (or Spellthief) 1/Bard 4/Daggerspell Mage 5/Sublime Chord 2 (or SC 1/DSM 1)

[Master Thrower]

Compared to a Wizard? Higher HD, skills, BAB, saves, weapon prof.

And best of all access to Sublime Chord? :smallamused:

Edit: Double post-and-reply? :smallconfused:

Anyway, you could go Rogue (or Spellthief) 1/Bard 4/Daggerspell Mage 5/Sublime Chord 2 (or SC 1/DSM 1)

So sorry about that double post, but what does sublime chord add, as I know its used to fast track to ninth level spells, but I already get those with the wizard build.

[hex0]

So sorry about that double post, but what does sublime chord add, as I know its used to fast track to ninth level spells, but I already get those with the wizard build.

SC is good because it stacks its CL with a previous class and if you have Practiced Spellcaster it will be pretty high. It also has great spellcasting ability. Mostly, it is easy to gish because you can continue its spellcasting with yet another prestige class. Like DSM or Abjurant Champion, etc.

[Master Thrower]

SC is good because it stacks its CL with a previous class and if you have Practiced Spellcaster it will be pretty high. It also has great spellcasting ability. Mostly, it is easy to gish because you can continue its spellcasting with yet another prestige class. Like DSM or Abjurant Champion, etc.

Is that worth making the character pretty MAD? Because with int synergy, I already need my casting stat, and I can fight with two weapons and channel spells.

[hex0]

Is that worth making the character pretty MAD? Because with int synergy, I already need my casting stat, and I can fight with two weapons and channel spells.

You'd only need DEX and CHA for Rogue/Bard/DSM/SC. What Int synergy?

[Master Thrower]

You'd only need DEX and CHA for Rogue/Bard/DSM/SC. What Int synergy?

Sorry meant int synergy between wizard and rogue.

With bard and rogue its also puts a focus on CHA