Party balance just died; help me fix it.

[Kazyan]

So. We have a halfling rogue, the wood elf ranger DMPC, the gray elf bard/sorcerer (me), and a human cleric that just unintentionally acquired the vampire template through plot.

Do I even need to point out where the problem is?

The game is roleplay-heavy, but the rogue player is itching for combat, and the cleric is going to dominate even more than usual with that new template. We're working on getting a resurrection spell. In the meantime, when I level up, I'd like to fail a little less by taking Leadership. For future reference, bard/sorcerer is not a good build.

So, playground. How would I build an elf or gnome 4th-level cleric? Cleric because that template means that our healbot has become an inflictbot.

[Tokuhara]

For future reference, bard/sorcerer is not a good build.


That isn't quite true. You just did it wrong...

Sorcerer 6/Prestige Bard 1/Virtuoso 2/Bard+Casting PrC that isn't Sublime Chord 10/Divine Oracle 1/Shandshaper 1

[Kazyan]

That isn't quite true. You just did it wrong...

Sorcerer 6/Prestige Bard 1/Virtuoso 2/Bard+Casting PrC that isn't Sublime Chord 10/Divine Oracle 1/Shandshaper 1

I knew someone would come by with an answer.

Sorc 2/Bard 3, which is what I have, is bad, because I hadn't been introduced to optimization. We're also op-light. We only have Core, Arms and Armaments, and Complete Arcana. Also, multiclassing penalties are in effect. Look at this hole I'm digging.

[Slipperychicken]

I knew someone would come by with an answer.

Sorc 2/Bard 3, which is what I have, is bad, because I hadn't been introduced to optimization. We're also op-light. We only have Core, Arms and Armaments, and Complete Arcana. Also, multiclassing penalties are in effect. Look at this hole I'm digging.


The first rule is thus: Thou Shalt Not Lose Caster Levels. Also, searching things like "3.5 Bard Handbook", or "3.5 Bard Optimization" can be useful to you.

[onemorelurker]

So. We have a halfling rogue, the wood elf ranger DMPC, the gray elf bard/sorcerer (me), and a human cleric that just unintentionally acquired the vampire template through plot.

Do I even need to point out where the problem is?

The game is roleplay-heavy, but the rogue player is itching for combat, and the cleric is going to dominate even more than usual with that new template. We're working on getting a resurrection spell. In the meantime, when I level up, I'd like to fail a little less by taking Leadership. For future reference, bard/sorcerer is not a good build.


First of all, the vampire template is LA +8. Giving it to a 5th-level character all at once is definitely going to break combat. There's a monstrous progression here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20030824a), but your cleric player may want to work out something in between with your DM, because not getting any hit dice or the things that come with it (skill points, feats, etc.) for eight levels suuuucks.


So, playground. How would I build an elf or gnome 4th-level cleric? Cleric because that template means that our healbot has become an inflictbot.

I don't think you need to make a cleric if you don't want to. They're a powerful class, yes, but if the only part of their role you're looking to fill is healing, bards have Cure spells on their lists and UMD as a class skill with good charisma. If vampy the cleric doesn't want to use some Cure wands to make up for lost spontaneous casting (which...eh, spontaneous Cure casting isn't usually worth it), you can do that as a bard.

[Draconi Redfir]

is the cleric of a good deity/alignment? could have it loose all cleric abilities like a paladan falling until the vampire cursse is broken. just say undeath severs all communicaition with his god(s). it will still have the vampire abilities, but it will loose the cleric abilities and spells.

[Forum Explorer]

So. We have a halfling rogue, the wood elf ranger DMPC, the gray elf bard/sorcerer (me), and a human cleric that just unintentionally acquired the vampire template through plot.

Do I even need to point out where the problem is?

The game is roleplay-heavy, but the rogue player is itching for combat, and the cleric is going to dominate even more than usual with that new template. We're working on getting a resurrection spell. In the meantime, when I level up, I'd like to fail a little less by taking Leadership. For future reference, bard/sorcerer is not a good build.

So, playground. How would I build an elf or gnome 4th-level cleric? Cleric because that template means that our healbot has become an inflictbot.

You know where the vampire sleep right? Just go kill the vampire. Saves a headache for everyone.

[Mando Knight]

If I remember my 3.5 char-op correctly, aren't you supposed to prepare Vigor-line spells anyway, relying only on Spontaneous Cure when needed?

[Kazyan]

@Slipperychicken: Learned that after making the character at 4th level. Yeah.

@onemorelurker: The HD aren't there, but various powers are. I don't know the specifics, but there's DR and Fast helaing and turning into a bat, ability score boosts, feats, etc. I could do healing with bard spells, but I can only cast Cure Light twice a day at Bard 3, and if I don't use my next level on Sorcerer, I start taking XP penalties and start failing even more in combat. But I guess it doesn't matter, since I'm mostly just playing or magic missling.

@Draconi Redfir: Cleric abilities are still there, but healing is inverted to inflicting, and the domain was reassigned. Someone else is powering the cleric now. Plot will reveal who.

@Forum Explorer: Kill our friend = no, from RP standpoint.

@Mando Knight: I'll go get Lesser Vigor or something next level, then.

[onemorelurker]

@onemorelurker: The HD aren't there, but various powers are. I don't know the specifics, but there's DR and Fast helaing and turning into a bat, ability score boosts, feats, etc. I could do healing with bard spells, but I can only cast Cure Light twice a day at Bard 3, and if I don't use my next level on Sorcerer, I start taking XP penalties and start failing even more in combat. But I guess it doesn't matter, since I'm mostly just playing or magic missling.


Vampires don't get extra HD at all. They just get powers (which you can take a look at on the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/vampire.htm) if you're curious. Giving those powers over eight levels is worse than just taking eight more levels of cleric, but giving those powers with no level adjustment (or a level adjustment of +1, if the cleric "leveled up" to vampire) is insanely overpowered, especially for a low-op group. If your party is going to be doing any combat (or any sneaking, or any interaction where mind control would explicate things, or...), the vampire cleric is going to outshine everybody. This is something you should probably talk to your DM about.

Another thing you should talk to him/her about is rebuilding your character. Sorry I didn't make this clear in my original post: I wasn't talking about adding a level in bard to your current build, I was talking about remaking the character as a straight-up bard build. My impression was, from the fact that you asked how to make a cleric, that you were building a new character anyway.

I was also not suggesting that you cast any Cure spells from your actual pool of spells per day. Wands of Cure spells are cheap and bog-standard, and since you have the Cure spells on your spell list, you can use wands of 'em without any trouble. You should also put points into UMD, in case you need to use a scroll or wand of a cleric spell that isn't also on your list.

[Big Fau]

Also, multiclassing penalties are in effect. Look at this hole I'm digging.

FWIW, the "Bard"/Sorcerer build he mentioned doesn't take an XP penalty, even if he didn't use Human for the race. Xp Penalties do not apply to Prestige Classes.

[ClothedInVelvet]

I'm not so sure this is a huge problem. A vampire template is a HUGE deal, but you mentioned that this is a RP-heavy game. So the cleric might actually play some sort of conflicted character (depending on how your GM rules the vampire transformation works). He could resist using his new powers, seeing them as a curse more than a blessing and spend his energy combatting them. So he might actually waste combat rounds trying not to jump into melee. He might spend hours trying to channel positive energy instead of negative, etc.

I can see how it could be catastrophic to your game. I've had plenty of players who would use that to shatter the fun into tiny pieces. But I don't think it has to be that way, and I think there are options that make it very possible to keep going the way it's currently going.

[Sception]

about vampires:
There are a few ways to handle a PC becoming a vampire. The most game-play functional is the Libris Mortis way - you become a vampire, immediately lose a level, and gain a level of the 'vampire spawn' monster class. From that point on, you gain monster class levels until you're done with vampire spawn (by it's end, you'll have four undead monsterous hit dice and +4 level adjustment), then continue leveling as you wish after that.

What your DM is doing is just applying the full template overnight. That is ridiculously powerful, but remember that said template comes with +8 level adjustment. If the cleric was fifth level, that cleric is now 13th level, despite not having gained any experience. How does that work?

Well, mostly, it doesn't, but what seems to be happening is that your DM is just giving the player eight levels. That's cool, but keep in mind that it A) reduces the party's experience because they're hanging out with a 13th level dude and B) it reduces the clerics experience way more then everyone else's. That cleric will basically never level up again, as he needs a gazillion zp to get to level 14, and he'll be lucky to get any at all from encounters designed for a 5th level party.


Anyway, it's a big mess, and if your DM wants to house rule it to make it work better then the above, that's probably for the best, as the vampire template is a mess, and really isn't worth anything like the +8 level adjustment it claims it is. Especially for casters -- as you've learned, lost caster levels are the kiss of death. I mean, one or two can be accepted in a build that gets something really awesome in exchange, but for the most part, yeah, don't do that.

--------------

Anyway, the next thing you need to learn (after no lost caster levels!) is that in-combat healing is a waste of time. This is a mathematical byproduct of the fact that enemies hit as hard or harder then characters can heal in a given round. Sure, the occasional 'heal' (and I mean the spell named "heal") can be useful, but for the most part, yeah, it's not worth the in combat actions.

Healing is most efficient out of combat, where action economy doesn't matter, and even there it isn't worth spell slots on most adventuring days. What it is worth is some gold investment - wands of cure light wounds or lesser vigor are the best means of healing up between combats, and they're pretty darn cheap, so long as everyone in the party pitches in. The healing spells are still on your cleric's spell list, so he can still use those wands for you between combats, while he himself is fixed up by his vampyric fast healing.

Other things - petrification, ability drain, disease, energy drain, etc. These things require more specific spells, but are also more situational. If the condition can wait, the cleric can always prepare the specific spell needed to counter it the next time they sleep. Some things require quicker treatment - energy drain can lead to permanent level loss if not treated quickly enough - so try to find wands or scrolls that can take care of those things in a pinch. Of course, if you know in advance you're going to be fighting something that causes ability damage or energy drain or whatever, it would behoove your cleric to prepare a spell or two out of their allotment to cover those roles.


So basically, you don't need or want a healbot. At least, not in combat. Healing is not a combat role. Actual combat roles are:

Tank (be tough, try to prevent enemies from attacking your allies, generally involves optimizing opportunity attacks and melee control options such as tripping or grappling)

DPR (do Damage. Lots of damage. higher amounts of single target damage is generally preferable to lower amounts of area damage, although both have their place. You are there to finish things off once the other characters have gotten things under control. One of the most popular roles, but also one of the least necessary. Pretty much anyone can deal damage. Note that 'save or die' spells are basically DPR. They do all the damage.)

Battlefield Control (break up enemy groups into managable chunks. Use terrain spells like grease or walls or black tentacles or whatnot to hamper opponents so that your tank and dpr can bring them one or two at a time.

Buff (make your party into team ridiculous)

Debuff (make the enemy party into team fail)

Generally, you want to be good at one of the above, and ok at one or two others, such as the melee warrior who can tank but also deals decent damage, The battlefield controller who can summon monsters that help tank, the buffer with some illusions that provide battlefield control, the debuffer with save or die spells to finish things off, the druid with strong battlefield control, a pet bear that can tank, and the ability to wild shape into a dinosaur to do some damage once the fight's in clean-up mode, etc.


Healing is one of the non-combat roles:
Face: interact with npcs in ways that don't involve murder. Generally involves a high cha and the social skills (diplomacy, bluff, gather information, sense motive, intimidate, etc), although spells can supplement and/or replace some of that.

Healer: healing is an inefficient use of actions in combat, because generally speaking you can't outpace monster damage and you'll burn a lot of spell slots trying. But that doesn't mean healing isn't necessary - it's just something you do after the fight, and preferably using as few resources, particularly spell slots, as possible. Wands of cure light wounds are especially worthwhile, here.

Scholar: knowledge skills can be important. For one, they let the DM dump relevant plot into on you. For another they can tell you what kind of monsters you're likely to encounter in an area, and what kind of precautions are appropriate. Can be covered by skills or divination spells or even conjuring spells - to summon up a creature that knows more then you.

Scout: Investigate what situations the party is getting themselves into before you get stuck in them. Can involve stealth, perception, and athletics - as per the rogue physically scouting an area out; or magical reconnaissance via divination spells; or even more cha skills, if you've got someone with enough bluff and disguise that they think they can walk right in the front door. The idea here is to avoid getting ambushed and, if possible, to set up ambushes yourselves.

Trapmonkey: Your DM may not have discovered it, but traps can be way more threatening in D&D then monsters. Monsters you can fight. A trap might TPK the party before you even know its there. avoiding traps involves skills such as search and disable device, and typically the trapmonkey also gets the job of opening locks. As with any non-combat role, spells can augment or replace the trapmonkey, including 'detect traps' and the like, or even just summoning or animating expendable monsters and having them walk down halls or open doors ahead of you.

Themed campaigns may include other relevant non-combat roles. A nautical campaign might require one or more PCs trained in sailing. An urban campaign might require some detective-style investigationeering, etc.

Again, you want to be able to do one or more of the above.

How much of your resources you invest into combat vs. non-combat roles should depend in part on the focus of the game, although I don't recommend spending any feats on purely non-combat applications - feats are too scarce a resource.

---------------------

So for your cohort, I would look at the various combat and non-combat roles, and ask if anything's missing in your party, and then do that.

Cleric honestly isn't a bad call, though, especially given that your party cleric is now a vampire and as such will never level up again, so he will fall further and further behind in terms of the conditions he can manage via his non-combat healer role. For combat role - clerics have powerful personal buffs that allow them to operate as a tank or melee DPR, they also have some decent (party) buff, debuff, and battlefield control options, particularly if you count domain selection. I would pick one strategy or the other (Tank/DPR cleric or control/buff/debuff cleric) and focus your build on it, rather then trying to do everything at the same time.

A druid could also be a good choice, having most of the relevant healing spells on their list, while also bringing an extra melee combatant or two and some solid battlefield control spells to supplement your rather limited ability to contribute such.

---------------------

I would also ask your DM about possibly rebuilding your character as a sorcerer or a bard, rather then a multiclass of the two. As you're finding, that doesn't tend to work too well.

[Slipperychicken]

Perhaps you could conisder retraining into a more effective build, to get that casting and xp progression back on track.

[Tokuhara]

Perhaps you could conisder retraining into a more effective build, to get that casting and xp progression back on track.

Or his character could just commit suicide and he can start fresh