[PF] - the better gish

[jaybird]

Pretty simple question - what would make a better gish character, a Paladin/Eldritch Knight/Dragon Disciple with Sorcerer levels or Summoner levels using the Syntheticist archetype? On one hand, you have a better spell list, on the other hand, you have some truly stupid tricks you can pull with an Eidolon out and 30+ STR and AC by level 10 isn't even a question.

[CTrees]

Honestly, with no 3.5 material? I'd either go Magus or Synthesist, with a possible dip here or there (synth18/pal2, etc).

EK+DD just strikes me as a terrible idea, which you're already losing spellcasting to paladin. Probably a minimum four spellcasting levels lost? Actually in that case, I'd go Summoner - you still have your 6th level spells (which with discounts, include normal eighths and ninths). Still... Pal/EK/DD? I just can't believe that's going to be worthwhile.

[jaybird]

Oh yeah, completely forgot about the two levels I lose from Paladin, oops. What about just Pally - Sorcerer or Summoner?

[Lord.Sorasen]

Oh yeah, completely forgot about the two levels I lose from Paladin, oops. What about just Pally - Sorcerer or Summoner?

Pally 2/Sorcerer 18 isn't going to feel much like a gish. Your BAB and hit points are only going to be a couple points above a straight sorcerer, and without a full BAB prestige class you'll be losing a lot. That being said the sorcerer in Pathfinder is incredibly powerful due to its bloodlines, and charisma modifiers to saves+1 a day smite evil won't hurt necessarily.

Summoner is going to make a very gishy gish. The synthesist archetype is said by many to be broken, possibly for good reason: unlike the pathfinder druid or the pathfinder shapechanging spells, the synthesist can completely ignore its physical stats, making it incredibly SAD (perhaps this issue is even greater than the druid's, since the synthesist gains temporary hitpoints based on his eidolon's con score.) You'll definitely be a powerful fighting force... But a lot of people aren't allowing the synthesist in their games, so you'll want to keep that in mind.

3 choices worth mentioning are the bard, magus, and inquisitor. The bard is most likely a class you're familiar with through 3.5. In pathfinder, they lose a lot of melee potential due to, among other things, the loss of dragonfire inspiration and certain prestige classes. However, they have some archetypes which I haven't checked too much... But should work if they perform as advertised. The dervish dancer archetype gives up bardic music for some more combat prowess... Gives it almost the feel of a barbarian's rage, but with the continued ability to use spellcasting.

An obvious choice is a magus. With a scimitar and dervish dance or a two-handed weapon on a strength build, you'll be able to deal massive amounts of damage through your spells. Spell recall is an amazing ability which will keep you relevant in most if not all situations, and having a spellbook and int based casting is a nice touch.

Inquisitors are divine, and I'll admit I don't know much about them. But I can say for sure that they have 6th level spellcasting, a decent selection of teamwork bonus feats (which they can utilize without having an ally with the feat) including a floating teamwork feat. Access to a domain, even without the spells, can be very nice, with anger inquisition (for barbarian rage) and animal domain (for an animal companion) seeming like good ideas.

[Drothmal]

+1 to magus. A mechanic that lets you cast and attack in the same turn really gives the gish feeling (at least to me)

Though I have to say that synthesist is probably the more optimizeable gish (haste at lvl 4??? +STR/DEX/Reach/NaturalAC/General brokeness?? It's very gishy)

[Paul H]

Hi

Magus & Sythesist are the two obvious suggestions, but Pal 4, then one level of Sorc/Bard/Summoner/Synthesist meet prereq for Dragon Disciple.
Edit: They ae all Cha based arcanists.

Thanks
Paul H
PS But Synthesist is only one class, but you are susceptible to Dismissal

[Frosty]

Hi

Magus & Sythesist are the two obvious suggestions, but Pal 4, then one level of Sorc/Bard/Summoner/Synthesist meet prereq for Dragon Disciple.
Edit: They ae all Cha based arcanists.

Thanks
Paul H
PS But Synthesist is only one class, but you are susceptible to DismissalCast Dimensional Anchor on self first? :smallbiggrin:

[ericgrau]

EDIT@^ And blow the 1st round of combat for the rest of your life? I'd get some kind of emergency safety measure like an obsidian steed or scroll of plane shift instead. You might only use it once if ever.

DD is a worse caster than EK but it's better for melee. So it's a different kind of gish, that's all. A self-buffing melee gish might want DD but one that still casts a lot in combat would prefer EK. And if you can manage to play a campaign all the way to 18, EK's capstone probably makes the PrC as good or better than DD for both roles. But that's a long time to wait for the capstone even if the campaign does go long.

A synthesist has even worse casting. I'm not very familiar with it but I assume it has more martial ability to compensate?

So the answer is... depends what you want to do?

[Paul H]

Hi

Personally I prefer Synthesist to DD, since DD you can just play being a dragon for a few minutes. A synthesist IS a dragon for a lot longer....

And as I said, Synthesist is a single class. (Though only 16 levels).

Frosty is right, Dimensional Anchor helps overcome Synthesist's primary weakness - Dismissal.

Thanks
Paul H

[Frosty]

COntingency it. Have a constant item of it, whatever. Do what it takes to not let ONE SPELL get rid of like, your most important class feature.

[CTrees]

But Synthesist is only one class, but you are susceptible to Dismissal

Summon Eidolon. If Dismissal or some other effect comes up, one spell and you're back up to full strength, for a duration of "longer than combat will last." It helps with night ambushes, times where you need to be in your base form for RP reasons, then need to respond to sudden combats, etc. Very worth taking as a known spell. Plus, it's a level two Summoner Spell, instead of a level four one. Heck, Contingency THAT.

[Paul H]

Hi

Summon Eidolon is already on the choice of spells for my own Synthesist Gish.

Downside is full round action to cast, (though Invis & Gtr Invis on their spell list). SF Conjration & Augment Summoning two good feats to make you even more powerful.

Thanks
Paul H

[CTrees]

Oh, also, Dismissal and Banishment are both on the Summoner list, and when cast by a Summoner, either fits in a Ring of Counterspells. A reasonable precaution.

[Paul H]

Hi

Was thinking about the ring counterspells. Not too sure much about it in PF, and we 'retire' at 12th lvl in PFS campaigns.

But then I'd be supicious if every villain had Dismissal memorised, just in case of one char class.......

And there's always Invis/Summon Eidolon combi..).

Thanks
Paul H