PDA

View Full Version : I actually want elan's mother and tarquin to get back together now



krossbow
2011-12-03, 02:07 AM
He's evil, but he's just such an ENTERTAININGLY evil character. pure affable evil (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/AffablyEvil) character.


yes, i'm obviously ignoring his horrific evil acts due to his personal charm, and the fact that i've never seen any of his victims personally besides his new wife, but still; it would make elan happy at least!

Scarlet Knight
2011-12-03, 06:01 AM
I can see a Sitcom for this: "He's an Evil Warrior! She's a wacky & lovable wench! Can he complete his plans to rule the land while raising 2 boys in a one room apartm hut?"

Occasional Sage
2011-12-03, 06:13 AM
Other than to see her wildly convoluted plans drive him crazy, why?

Kish
2011-12-03, 06:16 AM
yes, i'm obviously ignoring his horrific evil acts due to his personal charm, and the fact that i've never seen any of his victims personally besides his new wife,
...and the slaves Haley and Vaarsuvius rescued?

And Enor and Gannji? All right, not exactly endearing victims.

BlackestOfMages
2011-12-03, 06:46 AM
He's evil, but he's just such an ENTERTAININGLY evil character. pure affable evil (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/AffablyEvil) character.

Faux Affably Evil. he looks nice and freindly, but he's shown himself to be as bad as Xykon, and potentially worse since at leasy Xykon pays attention to what he's crushing (so he can gloat, but I digres...)

hamishspence
2011-12-03, 06:59 AM
I preferred it when this was called Evilly Affable.

ThePhantasm
2011-12-03, 09:04 AM
I have a crazy theory that in the end, part of Elan's "happy ending" will be that his mother settles down with Julio Scoundrel, who she has a crush for (and presumably Elan's mom isn't bad looking either, though it is hard to tell).

rbetieh
2011-12-03, 09:41 AM
I can see a Sitcom for this: "He's an Evil Warrior! She's a wacky & lovable wench! Can he complete his plans to rule the land while raising 2 boys in a one room apartm hut?"

I'm actually more interested in the prequel sitcom. He was a retired Adventurer married to a barmaid. Odds are he owned the Bar.....

TARQUINS!

Sometimes you want to go....
Where all the drinks where made by slaves....
And you'll leave with half a brain....

Bulldog Psion
2011-12-03, 10:19 AM
That would probably be exceptionally fatal for Elan's mother. :smalleek:

krossbow
2011-12-03, 01:35 PM
That would probably be exceptionally fatal for Elan's mother. :smalleek:

Now i have to object to this view. Its highly plausible tarquin DOESN"T just kill his wives like people assume.

Lets look at what we know about the past two wives: His last one didn't seem to have been on bad terms with him at the end, and she was unwittingly talking with Sabine before she dissapeared; it seems HIGHLY likely that she was murdered by Nale and co.

Elan's mother was quietly divorced; According to Tarquin, it was even her that wanted the divorce and he handled that very civilly.


I think one might be jumping to conclusions that he'd up and murder Elan's mother.

Bulldog Psion
2011-12-03, 01:45 PM
Now i have to object to this view. Its highly plausible tarquin DOESN"T just kill his wives like people assume.

Lets look at what we know about the past two wives: His last one didn't seem to have been on bad terms with him at the end, and she was unwittingly talking with Sabine before she dissapeared; it seems HIGHLY likely that she was murdered by Nale and co.

Elan's mother was quietly divorced; According to Tarquin, it was even her that wanted the divorce and he handled that very civilly.


I think one might be jumping to conclusions that he'd up and murder Elan's mother.

Ah, but think of the drama that would result -- the tropes that would be invoked! :smallbiggrin:

He needed her alive and well when he divorced her so that she could bring up the hero-son who would try to depose him. Now, killing her would ratchet up the intensity of the drama between Tarquin and Elan 10000%. IMO, she wouldn't live a minute longer than was dramatically necessary. :smalleek:

H Birchgrove
2011-12-03, 03:06 PM
I'm actually more interested in the prequel sitcom. He was a retired Adventurer married to a barmaid. Odds are he owned the Bar.....

TARQUINS!

Sometimes you want to go....
Where all the drinks where made by slaves....
And you'll leave with half a brain....

Explains why he doesn't need to pay alimony; he gave up the bar instead. (Fridge brilliance?)

Also, I bet clients who didn't pay in cash ended up as Zombies sold to Tarquin's good friend and former partner, Malack the Cleric. :smallamused:

WickedWizard17
2011-12-03, 03:22 PM
Faux Affably Evil. he looks nice and freindly, but he's shown himself to be as bad as Xykon, and potentially worse since at leasy Xykon pays attention to what he's crushing (so he can gloat, but I digres...)

He is NOT as bad as Xykon. He does not kill people for FUN. All the deaths at his hand that we've seen have been for the furthering of his plans and to the benefit of the nations he controls. There's a different between murdering for gain and for entertainment. Tarquin is willing to kill, but so is almost everyone else in the OotS universe. And D&D. He is not a Complete Monster like Xykon. He loves Elan, at some point he loved Nale, and he loved their mother. If people can be useful to him, he's polite. Xykon is cruel and brutal to everyone who comes near him. Redcloak, his most trusted servant and valuable ally without which none of his plans could come to fruition, is treated like dirt. And not good dirt, but the cracked dry kind in the desert no one likes.


I have a crazy theory that in the end, part of Elan's "happy ending" will be that his mother settles down with Julio Scoundrel, who she has a crush for (and presumably Elan's mom isn't bad looking either, though it is hard to tell).

. . . THAT is brilliant.

H Birchgrove
2011-12-03, 03:27 PM
I have a crazy theory that in the end, part of Elan's "happy ending" will be that his mother settles down with Julio Scoundrel, who she has a crush for (and presumably Elan's mom isn't bad looking either, though it is hard to tell).


. . . THAT is brilliant.

I love it! (I've thought the same myself, and regret not posting it earlier. :smallsigh: )

Dark Elf Bard
2011-12-03, 04:37 PM
That would probably be exceptionally fatal for Elan's mother. :smalleek:

This is correct.

Scarlet Knight
2011-12-03, 04:44 PM
That would probably be exceptionally fatal for Elan's mother. :smalleek:

No no no! That's the beauty! No matter what Tarquin schemes, her convoluted plans always make them crash! Remember, HE filed for divorce, not her... she was driving him crazy! Try and imagine Burns and Allen with The Brain as George...:smallbiggrin:

tribble
2011-12-03, 04:55 PM
I preferred it when this was called Evilly Affable.

The two are separate and distinct tropes, mmk?

Gift Jeraff
2011-12-03, 05:07 PM
He is NOT as bad as Xykon. He does not kill people for FUN. All the deaths at his hand that we've seen have been for the furthering of his plans and to the benefit of the nations he controls. There's a different between murdering for gain and for entertainment. Tarquin is willing to kill, but so is almost everyone else in the OotS universe. And D&D. He is not a Complete Monster like Xykon. He loves Elan, at some point he loved Nale, and he loved their mother. If people can be useful to him, he's polite. Xykon is cruel and brutal to everyone who comes near him. Redcloak, his most trusted servant and valuable ally without which none of his plans could come to fruition, is treated like dirt. And not good dirt, but the cracked dry kind in the desert no one likes.



. . . THAT is brilliant.Isn't entertainment just a form of gain? Besides, Tarquin clearly gets entertainment out of doing evil, as seen by his unnecessary "he only missed it for a few seconds" remark.

krossbow
2011-12-03, 06:08 PM
Isn't entertainment just a form of gain? Besides, Tarquin clearly gets entertainment out of doing evil, as seen by his unnecessary "he only missed it for a few seconds" remark.


there's a difference between doing a job that you love and doing something merely for pleasure.

Its the difference between going to a job that you love and going to the movies.

rbetieh
2011-12-03, 06:59 PM
Explains why he doesn't need to pay alimony; he gave up the bar instead. (Fridge brilliance?)

Also, I bet clients who didn't pay in cash ended up as Zombies sold to Tarquin's good friend and former partner, Malack the Cleric. :smallamused:

The biggest question is what happened to his George Wendt like friend? That guy was always in that bar...always

Steward
2011-12-03, 08:17 PM
Isn't entertainment just a form of gain? Besides, Tarquin clearly gets entertainment out of doing evil, as seen by his unnecessary "he only missed it for a few seconds" remark.

Didn't he also impale a bunch of slaves and light them on fire? I don't really understand the distinction between that and what Xykon is doing. Tarquin is really likeable -- I like him, but he's a butcher, just like Xykon. On an interpersonal level he's much easier to get along with and he's probably not as sadistic but let's not turn him into a cold pragmatist who only does what needs to be done because he really isn't.

That being said, I don't think he would kill Elan's mother.


No no no! That's the beauty! No matter what Tarquin schemes, her convoluted plans always make them crash! Remember, HE filed for divorce, not her... she was driving him crazy! Try and imagine Burns and Allen with The Brain as George...

Ha!

krossbow
2011-12-03, 09:12 PM
Didn't he also impale a bunch of slaves and light them on fire? I don't really understand the distinction between that and what Xykon is doing. Tarquin is really likeable -- I like him, but he's a butcher, just like Xykon. On an interpersonal level he's much easier to get along with and he's probably not as sadistic but let's not turn him into a cold pragmatist who only does what needs to be done because he really isn't.

That being said, I don't think he would kill Elan's mother.



Ha!


nah, that has very good point! by responding in a horrific manner to slaves escaping, you send a message to the other slaves NOT to do so; its called massive retaliation.
By instilling fear in the populace, you force them to submit to your will; because if they raise even a small resistance, your going to respond in a horrifically disproportionate manner.

Xykon doesn't care about sending a message; he just kills people because they're there and its tuesday (or monday, or saturday, or friday....)

Dr.Epic
2011-12-03, 09:14 PM
it would make elan happy at least!

Yeah, but unfortunately it'll most likely make Elan's mom dead.

Occasional Sage
2011-12-04, 03:09 AM
No no no! That's the beauty! No matter what Tarquin schemes, her convoluted plans always make them crash! Remember, HE filed for divorce, not her... she was driving him crazy! Try and imagine Burns and Allen with The Brain as George...:smallbiggrin:

I... am kind of in love with your analogy.

Zmflavius
2011-12-04, 11:41 AM
nah, that has very good point! by responding in a horrific manner to slaves escaping, you send a message to the other slaves NOT to do so; its called massive retaliation.
By instilling fear in the populace, you force them to submit to your will; because if they raise even a small resistance, your going to respond in a horrifically disproportionate manner.

Xykon doesn't care about sending a message; he just kills people because they're there and its tuesday (or monday, or saturday, or friday....)


You know, I would think that would make him less, not more affable.

Steward
2011-12-04, 04:58 PM
nah, that has very good point! by responding in a horrific manner to slaves escaping, you send a message to the other slaves NOT to do so; its called massive retaliation.
By instilling fear in the populace, you force them to submit to your will; because if they raise even a small resistance, your going to respond in a horrifically disproportionate manner.

Xykon doesn't care about sending a message; he just kills people because they're there and its tuesday (or monday, or saturday, or friday....)

You could easily make an almost identical argument for Xykon. (When he slaughters people for very little reason, he generally reanimates them as undead minions, thereby increasing the size of his military, reducing their cost, and sending a message to the others not to mess with him.)

Just because something has a purpose doesn't mean that it's not monstrous.

Tarquin is nice person-to-person; that's probably why he manages to maintain real friendships, but that doesn't make him a good person overall or even that much different from Xykon on a grand scale. They're different but not that much so.

Bulldog Psion
2011-12-04, 05:00 PM
nah, that has very good point! by responding in a horrific manner to slaves escaping, you send a message to the other slaves NOT to do so; its called massive retaliation.
By instilling fear in the populace, you force them to submit to your will; because if they raise even a small resistance, your going to respond in a horrifically disproportionate manner.

Xykon doesn't care about sending a message; he just kills people because they're there and its tuesday (or monday, or saturday, or friday....)

I think that's a really, really moot point to the people who end up dead.

Kish
2011-12-04, 05:04 PM
Also? No, that does not work. You can push people just so far--considerably less far than the Empire of Blood pushes its slaves--and then you can't push them any further or they'll rebel no matter what the consequences are for rebelling. I don't doubt that Tarquin believes it will work, but that he's as deluded as Ian or Girard of any of the other deeply deluded characters in the comic isn't something I'd really want to highlight about him if I were one of his fans.

rbetieh
2011-12-04, 05:19 PM
Actually, the nature of the plan allows it to work every time. Since he can actually co-opt any resistance movement, remove the actual leaders, and use the rebel band to replace the current puppet with a new puppet. Thus the party on the left becomes the party on the right, no one will ever be fooled again, I can go back to listening to The Who. :smallsmile:

But he could always go back into semi-retirement and run his bar again.... Ohh he could start a new drink and call if Flaming Nale!

Lynn
2011-12-04, 07:09 PM
Elan's mom is never coming back to a man who thinks turning people into compost is an appropriate retribution for being a douche to a waitress, even if he loves her and would not hurt her. But I would love to see him getting married to an other not evil woman. Someone who would love him back and that Elan would feel bad about making a widow. That would create so much drama.

About the difference between Tarquin an Xykon:
Xykon is a card carrying villain, Tarquin does not not even understand the difference being good and evil.

Xykon is unable to bond with people, the closest you can get to being his friend is laughing at the same thing at the same time, the closest he can get to trusting people is knowing they are to weak/scared to betray him.
Tarquin has friends, and even trough he is the mastermind, he seems to be on an equal footing with the rest of his party. Generally he seems to genuinely care for people who are "a somebody" to him.

Tarquin obviously enjoys causing pain, but he inflics it only to people who, in his twisted mind, "had it coming".

Tarquin seems to actually think he uses his power for the best interest of the people. Xykon, on the other hand wants power for power because that's just who he is.
:xykon: power is something you are


I think that's a really, really moot point to the people who end up dead.
But it matters to the living. People can cope with a lot of abuse but they need to know what leads them to being killed.
Tarquin is a monster but you can be around him without being in a constant danger. Tarquin is not morally better than Xykon but his evil is more bearable.


Also? No, that does not work. You can push people just so far--considerably less far than the Empire of Blood pushes its slaves--and then you can't push them any further or they'll rebel no matter what the consequences are for rebelling. I don't doubt that Tarquin believes it will work, but that he's as deluded as Ian or Girard of any of the other deeply deluded characters in the comic isn't something I'd really want to highlight about him if I were one of his fans.
But the slaves were not rebelling or about to rebel when the OOTS arrived. People usually don't rebel suddenly,it takes eitherthe fear the situation would get worse or the hope it could get better. Haley gave slaves them the hope of freedom. The message Tarquin send by catching and executing publicly every last one of the escaped slaves was not just "if you disobey, you will be gruesomely punished", they already knew that. It was "Even if you escape, we will catch you again. There is no hope." Even if people don't care about the consequences, they wont try something they think impossible.

Dr.Epic
2011-12-04, 07:59 PM
Elan's mom is never coming back to a man who thinks turning people into compost is an appropriate retribution for being a douche to a waitress, even if he loves her and would not hurt her.

How do you know that? We know little of Elan's mom, we know they were once married, so how can we be sure she wouldn't fall for him again?

Steward
2011-12-05, 09:35 AM
so how can we be sure she wouldn't fall for him again?

Her Int score might be higher than 3.

(No, but seriously, we don't know that she wouldn't)

rbetieh
2011-12-05, 09:40 AM
Her Int score might be higher than 3.

(No, but seriously, we don't know that she wouldn't)

Darn those wisdom checks!

t209
2011-12-05, 11:38 AM
Her Int score might be higher than 3.

(No, but seriously, we don't know that she wouldn't)

Actually, Elan's stupidity came from nale hitting elan's head (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0050.html)

Kish
2011-12-05, 11:47 AM
Actually, Elan's stupidity came from nale hitting elan's head (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0050.html)

Relevance to what you're replying to?

Occasional Sage
2011-12-05, 12:01 PM
Relevance to what you're replying to?

I think the thought process is: Elan is stupid, therefore maybe he inherited it from his mother (obviously not from his dad, who is shown to be very smart), leading to more chance she'd get back together with Tarquin. So pointing out that Elan has a canonical, non-genetic reason for his notsmartosity makes sense.

How'd I do, t209, that what you were thinking?

Kish
2011-12-05, 12:28 PM
I do hate proxy dialogues. However.

Dr. Epic asked how we can be sure Elan's mother won't fall for Tarquin again.

Steward replied, "Her Int score might be higher than 3." Implication: It would be astoundingly stupid of her to fall for Tarquin again. Nothing to do with Elan's brain damage. Nothing to do with Elan, for that matter, just his mother and what she knows about Tarquin.

Occasional Sage
2011-12-05, 12:40 PM
I do hate proxy dialogues. However.

Dr. Epic asked how we can be sure Elan's mother won't fall for Tarquin again.

Steward replied, "Her Int score might be higher than 3." Implication: It would be astoundingly stupid of her to fall for Tarquin again. Nothing to do with Elan's brain damage. Nothing to do with Elan, for that matter, just his mother and what she knows about Tarquin.

Yeah, I can't imagine even a 3-Int going back to somebody who juices the entire patronage of a bar "out of love".

...

Except that people do, with scary regularity, even in the real world. So clearly my imagination is (thankfully) deficient.

t209
2011-12-05, 12:41 PM
I think the thought process is: Elan is stupid, therefore maybe he inherited it from his mother (obviously not from his dad, who is shown to be very smart), leading to more chance she'd get back together with Tarquin. So pointing out that Elan has a canonical, non-genetic reason for his notsmartosity makes sense.

How'd I do, t209, that what you were thinking?

Yes. Yes, you have.

Ninjaman
2011-12-05, 01:18 PM
I think this thread has turned into a discussion about Tarquins evilness, mayby you should re-name it?

martianmister
2011-12-05, 02:38 PM
Also, Tarquin is the one who want a divorce from her.

rbetieh
2011-12-05, 02:55 PM
Also, Tarquin is the one who want a divorce from her.

Not according to Tarquin (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0751.html)

hamishspence
2011-12-05, 03:00 PM
According to this one panel flashback- he's the one suing her for divorce- "irreconcilable differences":

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0050.html

rbetieh
2011-12-05, 03:05 PM
According to this one panel flashback- he's the one suing her for divorce- "irreconcilable differences":

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0050.html

Yes but that panel is provided to you by Nale. We have 2 of 3 interpretations (missing Elans mom).

hamishspence
2011-12-05, 03:17 PM
Isn't that normally only valid for crayon strips?

I believe The Giant pointed out for Start of Darkness, that scenes in normal stick figure style (like, for example, Eugene's account?) still happened exactly as seen- only crayon strips are subject to the narrator's biases or truthfulness:


Oooo! Oooo! I know this one!

The events of Start of Darkness are not a narrative being told by Redcloak, except for the crayon pages (which totally are). You are right, your friend is wrong. Everything you see happened.

However, everything that happened is not necessarily seen.

rbetieh
2011-12-05, 03:35 PM
Isn't that normally only valid for crayon strips?

I believe The Giant pointed out for Start of Darkness, that scenes in normal stick figure style (like, for example, Eugene's account?) still happened exactly as seen- only crayon strips are subject to the narrator's biases or truthfulness:

So it is: should have checked in on the phantasms thread then. But do note (and not to seem like I am changing my story, just because) that sometimes Divorce isn't the first step ending a marriage, there are trial separations, etc. Tarquin does say he took her to court.

hamishspence
2011-12-05, 03:47 PM
True. Maybe the only way to get "visitation rights" in the first place, in that particular part of the OoTS setting, was to initiate divorce proceedings.

Steward
2011-12-06, 10:15 PM
I do hate proxy dialogues. However.

Dr. Epic asked how we can be sure Elan's mother won't fall for Tarquin again.

Steward replied, "Her Int score might be higher than 3." Implication: It would be astoundingly stupid of her to fall for Tarquin again. Nothing to do with Elan's brain damage. Nothing to do with Elan, for that matter, just his mother and what she knows about Tarquin.

Wow, that was exactly right! Thanks!