View Full Version : Shinnok is neutral good?
gooddragon1
2011-12-03, 06:41 AM
Okay, maybe Quan Chi isn't neutral good. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=12250638) Maybe he's just chaotic good with an unusual way of showing it. But surely Shinnok must be neutral good? He doesn't seem to be for or against the law but he is willing to grant a gift to Quan Chi for helping him (a gift of his existence). So, I'd say he's probably neutral good right? Any evidence against this?
kamikasei
2011-12-03, 06:48 AM
Any evidence against this?
*googles Shinnok*
I don't know; maybe all that evil stuff he did?
This thread really does read as though you're taking the piss. What's the point?
gooddragon1
2011-12-03, 07:24 AM
*googles Shinnok*
I don't know; maybe all that evil stuff he did?
This thread really does read as though you're taking the piss. What's the point?
I'm making a cleric in 3.5 named shinnok and having his alignment as neutral good.
kamikasei
2011-12-03, 07:35 AM
Do you actually believe that the archvillain of Mortal Kombat can reasonably be considered good-aligned? If so, why?
If not, why do you need to try to argue for an absurd position just so you can play a character with the same name?
If your character does the sort of stuff MK!Shinnok does, he's pretty much guaranteed not to be good. If he doesn't, then MK!Shinnok's alignment (not that he has one - he's not a D&D character - but whatever alignment you might try to assign to him for the sake of argument...) doesn't matter a damn.
gooddragon1
2011-12-03, 03:31 PM
Do you actually believe that the archvillain of Mortal Kombat can reasonably be considered good-aligned? If so, why?
If not, why do you need to try to argue for an absurd position just so you can play a character with the same name?
If your character does the sort of stuff MK!Shinnok does, he's pretty much guaranteed not to be good. If he doesn't, then MK!Shinnok's alignment (not that he has one - he's not a D&D character - but whatever alignment you might try to assign to him for the sake of argument...) doesn't matter a damn.
No, I guess not. But I don't remember seeing him doing anything particularly evil. Maybe they just say all those bad things about him and he's really neutral good?
Weezer
2011-12-03, 03:44 PM
No, I guess not. But I don't remember seeing him doing anything particularly evil. Maybe they just say all those bad things about him and he's really neutral good?
Why are you so invested in squeezing these video game villains into pretty artificial ideas of alignment?
Tengu_temp
2011-12-03, 03:47 PM
I'm making a cleric in 3.5 named shinnok and having his alignment as neutral good.
I wasn't aware that all people with the same name have the same alignment. Also, I'm sure your group loves your creativity.
Hiro Protagonest
2011-12-03, 03:55 PM
Maybe they just say all those bad things about him and he's really neutral good?
Why? Why would they and why would you think that? Because you think he's cool?
gooddragon1
2011-12-03, 06:05 PM
Why? Why would they and why would you think that? Because you think he's cool?
Well he does have a cool outfit. And maybe they're just jealous of his cool outfit.
Well he does have a cool outfit. And maybe they're just jealous of his cool outfit.
HNNNNNG.
He is the God of the Netherrealm, a realm of eternal torture, hellfire, and concentrated evil.
How does his having a cool outfit relate to anything?
He is quite blatantly, and repeatedly stated to have slaughtered thousands in cold blood, and to kill anyone who so much as doubts his will.
The only way he could be more evil is if he ruled ov- oh wait. He does rule over hell. AKA: The Nether Realm.
That's like asking "Is this baby raping serial killer thief Hitler evil?" (Going by Stereotypes here...)
gooddragon1
2011-12-04, 01:21 AM
HNNNNNG.
He is the God of the Netherrealm, a realm of eternal torture, hellfire, and concentrated evil.
How does his having a cool outfit relate to anything?
He is quite blatantly, and repeatedly stated to have slaughtered thousands in cold blood, and to kill anyone who so much as doubts his will.
The only way he could be more evil is if he ruled ov- oh wait. He does rule over hell. AKA: The Nether Realm.
That's like asking "Is this baby raping serial killer thief Hitler evil?" (Going by Stereotypes here...)
I'd say it's just him being grumpy about his job then and all those statements about slaughtering thousands are probably referring to thousands of pillows who were not capable of being punched by him.
Weezer
2011-12-04, 01:57 AM
I'd say it's just him being grumpy about his job then and all those statements about slaughtering thousands are probably referring to thousands of pillows who were not capable of being punched by him.
Your rationalizations are getting more and more insane. What you're saying would be like me saying Emperor Palpatine wasn't really evil, he just manufactured a civil war, overthrew a democratic government, instituted a vicious tyranny and enslaved a large number of alien races because he was sad his puppy died. And that he didn't really murder 3 Jedi masters, he was just tickling them. With lightning. :smallsigh:
Cespenar
2011-12-04, 04:56 AM
People, I know it's hard to see through a joke on the Internet, what with facial expressions and intonations not existing and all, but just look at this.
Well he does have a cool outfit. And maybe they're just jealous of his cool outfit.
I mean, seriously.
Devonix
2011-12-04, 07:40 AM
Yes he's just joking, not even Trolling just joking.
People, I know it's hard to see through a joke on the Internet, what with facial expressions and intonations not existing and all, but just look at this.
I mean, seriously.
Due to board regulations I'm not really allowed to say that someone might be facetious in the intent of their thread, and thus I wont accuse the creator of being in any way disingenuous with his responses.
Tavar
2011-12-04, 02:47 PM
Or, he's not being serious at all and you're responding to him as though he was.
I'm reminded of a character in a book giving a lecture to a prankster. In effect, he tells him that a good comedian tries to understand his audience, and if his approach isn't working, tries to adapt.
Psyren
2011-12-04, 05:46 PM
1) Any discussion of Kombatant alignments needs to specify which timeline. (Classic or Reboot)
2) QC and Shinnok are not Good. At absolute best you could argue Neutral, and then only for QC, simply because he's playing all the sides off against each other (even Shinnok, his supposed true boss) for personal gain, and so is just as willing to screw over evil as good. But nothing he ever does is selfless, thus he cannot be Good.
Arakune
2011-12-04, 07:09 PM
I believe you Playgrounders had been had and gooddragon1 achieved his objective on this thread.
Psyren
2011-12-04, 07:53 PM
I believe you Playgrounders had been had and gooddragon1 achieved his objective on this thread.
You mean he forced us to post, on a message board? The scandal! The shame!
Arakune
2011-12-04, 09:21 PM
You mean he forced us to post Took the troll post seriously, on a message board? The scandal! The shame!
And you should feel bad about it. :smallcool:
Psyren
2011-12-05, 12:00 AM
And you should feel bad about it. :smallcool:
*points beneath username*
No reason to, really.
Besides which, there is still the possibility (however absurdly slim) that his beliefs, however wrong, are sincerely held; in which case the attempt to correct the OP is not a wasted effort.
Vacant
2011-12-05, 02:51 AM
Well he does have a cool outfit. And maybe they're just jealous of his cool outfit.
I am sold. One-hundred percent sold.
Also, to prevent confusion, I am not being sarcastic.
DiscipleofBob
2011-12-05, 09:41 AM
This reminds of a conversation I once had with an associate where he tried to convince me that
LIGHT YAGAMI was Lawful Good.
Psyren
2011-12-05, 11:12 AM
This reminds of a conversation I once had with an associate where he tried to convince me that
LIGHT YAGAMI was Lawful Good.
But this filthy world must be cleaned! By mass murder (including of law enforcement and news reporters) if necessary!
DiscipleofBob
2011-12-05, 11:41 AM
But this filthy world must be cleaned! By mass murder (including of law enforcement and news reporters) if necessary!
"But he said he had good intentions at one point therefore it must be true," was his fail logic.
Weezer
2011-12-05, 12:32 PM
"But he said he had good intentions at one point therefore it must be true," was his fail logic.
I think at the very beginning he could be seen as some flavor of Good, probably chaotic good. Ignoring rule of law and due process to kill obvious criminals who escape justice isn't all that evil, it's pretty much the definition of CG. However he definitely slips pretty quickly into the realm of evil, especially once he starts killing to protect himself.
DiscipleofBob
2011-12-05, 12:36 PM
I think at the very beginning he could be seen as some flavor of Good, probably chaotic good. Ignoring rule of law and due process to kill obvious criminals who escape justice isn't all that evil, it's pretty much the definition of CG. However he definitely slips pretty quickly into the realm of evil, especially once he starts killing to protect himself.
The way I see it: Before he gets the Death Note: LG, he honestly wants to become a detective to serve and protect, Directly After he gets the Death Note: LN, since he immediately starts killing any criminal who he hears about, shortly after: LE, once he realizes he can rule the world with this item, possibly going to NE or even CE.
Psyren
2011-12-05, 01:11 PM
I agree with both premises (i.e. that his alignment changed during the series, and that the biggest shift happened shortly after acquiring the note.) His moral event horizon was pretty clearly the murder of Lind L. Tailor, whom he had no idea was a criminal, simply for challenging him on TV.
What I find ironic is how directly his one patently evil act led to his downfall. How long would he have been able to remain in hiding had he not lashed out at that broadcast? How long would it have taken for the Japanese police to grow disenchanted with L after repeatedly airing his video with no response from Kira? Without the definitive proof L gained from that victory, would the FBI have sent agents into Japan at all? And how long would it then have taken for Light to gain devoted followers (like Mikami, except worldwide) to whom he could mail Death Note pages and really confuse L?
Ravens_cry
2011-12-05, 01:29 PM
I think at the very beginning he could be seen as some flavor of Good, probably chaotic good. Ignoring rule of law and due process to kill obvious criminals who escape justice isn't all that evil, it's pretty much the definition of CG. However he definitely slips pretty quickly into the realm of evil, especially once he starts killing to protect himself.
Maybe in a grim and corrupt world that death is the only justice they are are going to get, maybe. But for most places? I don't think so
I still think someone is better off trying to fix such a world in my opinion.
It's the fisherman principle after all.
Weezer
2011-12-05, 01:47 PM
Maybe in a grim and corrupt world that death is the only justice they are are going to get, maybe. But for most places? I don't think so
I still think someone is better off trying to fix such a world in my opinion.
It's the fisherman principle after all.
Sure it's not the ideal case of CG, I don't think anyone would ever argue that Light was ideal in any way, but isn't CG when someone acts in defiance of laws for the good of society, especially when taken with the idea that laws aren't sufficiently punishing those who need to be punished?
Fisheman's principle, what is that, never heard of it before?
DiscipleofBob
2011-12-05, 02:08 PM
Sure it's not the ideal case of CG, I don't think anyone would ever argue that Light was ideal in any way, but isn't CG when someone acts in defiance of laws for the good of society, especially when taken with the idea that laws aren't sufficiently punishing those who need to be punished?
Fisheman's principle, what is that, never heard of it before?
Neither his actions nor his intentions (once he has the Deathnote) are good by any definition, despite his early poor attempts to justify them as such.
Your example is not Good, nor is it Chaotic. It's Lawful Neutral, possibly Lawful Evil.
Ravens_cry
2011-12-05, 05:59 PM
Sure it's not the ideal case of CG, I don't think anyone would ever argue that Light was ideal in any way, but isn't CG when someone acts in defiance of laws for the good of society, especially when taken with the idea that laws aren't sufficiently punishing those who need to be punished?
"Not the ideal" "Pretty much the definition."
Which is it?
It's neither really. Chaos isn't about laws, it is about your place on ethics.
Besides, murder is but one punishment.
Fisheman's principle, what is that, never heard of it before?
Give a man a fish, you feed him for a day, teach a man to fish and you feed him the rest of his life.
In this case, kill someone when there is no other justice, you kill that man, but you don't solve the underlying problem of corruption and a lack of faith in society that make a better justice impossible.
Is fixing a society harder? Oh, magnitudes.
But if good was easy, everyone would do it.
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