Some variant shield rules?

[No brains]

Another stupid idea from No brains! Shields let you use 1.5x your (Edit: Dex) AC! Makes no sense but helps compete with two-handed weapons!

So I know there's a lot of problems with sword and board. Does anyone have any ideas that seem useful to makes shield using a useful competitor with 2 handed weapons?

Some stuff to remember from history: in Europe, shields were widely used for thousands of years, sometimes to awesome effect. The spartan trashcan lid was an excuse for warriors to Gong-show their enemies sure, but it's nearly impenetrable and provides protection for an entire moving body behind. It is even said at one point big bronze shields made bronze body armor obsolete save for the helmet. Shields were most effectively used for formations of warriors. In most one-on-one fights, shields weren't as popular, probably because they were less useful.

Okay, I went and embarrassed myself! Smart people start talking as Keyboard Cat plays me off!

[Gotterdammerung]

I played around with a houserule one time for shields. You might like it.

Shields no longer applied an AC bonus.

Instead, You could make a reflex save (DC equal to the attack modifier of the attacker) to bring your shield to bare versus a blow.

Bucklers- Gain a +5 untyped bonus to reflex saves for the purposes of bringing a shield to bare. If successful negate 25% of the damage from the blow.

Light Shields- Gain a +5 untyped bonus to reflex saves for the purposes of bringing a shield to bare. If successful negate 25% of the damage from the blow and have a 25% chance of negating targeted spells that have an attack roll.

heavy shields- If successful negate 50% of the damage of the blow and have a 50% chance of negating targeted spells that have an attack roll.

Tower Shields- -5 penalty to reflex saves for the purposes of bringing a shield to bare. If successful negate 75% of the damage of the blow and have a 75% chance to negate targeted spells with an attack roll.


I also created a few feats to go along with this new line of rules. But I forget the details.

[Greenish]

Perhaps the main problem with shields (aside from Animated quality) is that in 3.5, the best defense truly is good offense.

[Chronos]

I saw a proposal once (and unfortunately can never remember who came up with it) that a shield lets you add your Dex bonus again to AC. Every shield had some max dex bonus (which applied both to the ordinary dex bonus and to that granted by the shield, same as the max dex bonus from armor), and gave some amount of AC on its own. A buckler would give no AC on its own, but has no max dex bonus. Heavier shields give +1 or +2 to AC on their own, but have lower max dex bonus.

At the time, I ran the numbers, and found that it made sword-and-board at least comparable to two-handing, using feats like Power Attack and Expertise to make the comparisons.

[No brains]

Another historical fact about shields is that if you don't have one when a projectile comes at you, you are plain screwed. From arrows to axes, anything launched at you comes in so fast you simply need a wall between you and it. Any ideas to make a D&D shield functional in a way relevant to this?

[tyckspoon]

Another historical fact about shields is that if you don't have one when a projectile comes at you, you are plain screwed. From arrows to axes, anything launched at you comes in so fast you simply need a wall between you and it. Any ideas to make a D&D shield functional in a way relevant to this?

If you have a decent houserule to address the pitifully low AC bonus provided by a shield, you're already most of the way there on this issue as well; all basic attacks fall under the attack roll/AC mechanic, so if you make shields useful against melee attacks (via extra AC or an active defense mechanic or whatever) they'll be useful against ranged attacks.

That said, it'd be pretty sensible to at least make some changes to, say, the Deflect Arrows feat..instead of making it default to 'fancy karate man swats arrow out of the air' have it be 'shielded man blocks arrow with metal slab.' That is, Imp. Unarmed Strike is no longer a prereq, and by default it requires having a shield instead of an empty hand. If you also happen to have Imp. Unarmed Strike, then you may also perform the feat with an empty hand.

[Duncan_Ruadrik]

Another historical fact about shields is that if you don't have one when a projectile comes at you, you are plain screwed. From arrows to axes, anything launched at you comes in so fast you simply need a wall between you and it. Any ideas to make a D&D shield functional in a way relevant to this?

Pathfinder 'Missile Shield (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/missile-shield-combat)" Feat comes to mind. There is also a similar feat for Ray attacks (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/ray-shield-combat) (screw you kinda, wizard!).

I theorize that combined with a Pathfinder bard (spellcasting with shield) with the Arcane Duelist archetype, you can be quite annoying to archers and casters, with the Step Up feat line.

[Seerow]

Universal: No more animated shields. Or animated shields only get the benefits they normally get, nothing from alternate rules.

Alternate possible rules for shields to increase personal survivability:

-Shields provide a miss chance, giving a defense that is always relevant.

-Shields provide cover, giving bonuses to reflex saves as well as AC. Fighting defensively can give better cover (so partial cover->regular cover for bucklers/light shields. Cover->Total Cover for heavy shield/tower shield)

-Using a shield gives you double returns on combat expertise

-Shields apply to touch AC, saving throws, and defense against combat maneuvers by default

[Hiro Protagonest]

Add your BAB as an untyped bonus to your AC when wielding a shield (not including animated), half BAB when not.

Keeps AC and shields relevant.

As for the missile attacks...

Shields grant miss chance against anything Deflect Arrows works on equal to 10% x shield's AC bonus (enhancement bonuses count, BAB does not).

New feat:

Diamond Shield
Your miss chance now applies against any spell with a range of longer than touch that requires an attack roll, and you get evasion when wielding a buckler, light shield, or heavy shield, and improved evasion when wielding an extreme shield (Races of Stone) or tower shield. The evasion and improved evasion works in any armor.

[No brains]

Oh man, I'm getting that feeling again. It seems like shields were addressed fairly well in the transition to 4e. Sure part of it involved nerfing the ever loving hell out of two handed weapons but it seems like shields are much more relevant now from my experience and reading...

You know, the nerf on 2h weapons actually makes sense. You don't get 1'5x your str when pushing a rock with two hands, and your strength doesn't determine your carrying capacity for either hand, but rather your entire body.

Either way, this is a nice amount of stuff to work with. Thanks a 7!

[Duncan_Ruadrik]

Universal: No more animated shields.

I and my usual gaming group implement this at all times. Even when I'm playing with a group other than my usual, I will generally refuse the premise of an animated shield.

[Greenish]

That said, it'd be pretty sensible to at least make some changes to, say, the Deflect Arrows feat..instead of making it default to 'fancy karate man swats arrow out of the air' have it be 'shielded man blocks arrow with metal slab.' That is, Imp. Unarmed Strike is no longer a prereq, and by default it requires having a shield instead of an empty hand.You're describing Block Arrow from Heroes of Battle.

[tyckspoon]

You're describing Block Arrow from Heroes of Battle.

Not terribly surprised, it's not a hard idea.. just something that shouldn't have required a splat book.

[Gwendol]

Yeah, shield AC should apply to touch AC. Also the AC bonus of the shield is pityful to begin with.

Bonus to reflex is a good proposition, but I don't quite get why a miss chance should be applied? If the shield gives a proper AC bonus, where's the miss chance derived from? Cover?
Possibly if used against ranged attacks, but hardly for melee.

Edit: I mean, a heavy steel shield provides the same protection as leather armor. Makes you wonder how the designers figured they were used...

[Pechvarry]

More AC/built in defense is nice and a good start, but it doesn't make shield fighters more viable. There's a failing in the "tank role" in 3.x, and there are a lot of factors for why.

But I'm going to point out the most obvious: attacks of opportunity were intended to be the melee warrior's way of discouraging walking past them. But that doesn't work. Not only are AoOs from shield fighters very un-dangerous, they are also the most likely to only have 1/round.

Rule #1) My (simple and not all-encompassing) fix: every Shield* feat gives you 1 additional AoO/round assuming you're holding a shield. It may not be the most rooted in reality, but I think my reasoning is sound: fighting with a shield allows you to be a very aggressive attacker, exploiting all sorts of weaknesses in your opponent's movements simply because you have a shield interposed between you and their route to retaliation.

Beyond this, all melee combatants need a very low-investment means of at least being decent tanks with those additional AoOs but low attack power. They shouldn't need to optimize their class levels and feats perfectly, and it shouldn't take several levels to start to come together.

Rule #2) One thing I came up with but never playtested, and I believe I've mentioned this one like twice on Giantitp: Improved Shield Bash lets you choose to either keep your shield bonus to AC after a shield bash, or sacrifice it to impose a penalty on your bashed opponent's attacks equal to your shield AC for a round. Untyped penalty, doesn't stack with itself. In essence, you're trading in your ability to have a reasonably high AC against all opponents to give that same AC benefit to all allies, at the expense of other enemies having an easier time taking you on.

These 2 changes allow combatants who happen to use a shield to be useful, while dedicated shield-wielding defenders can still optimize and become totally awesome.

*Shield feat is defined as Improved Shield Bash, Shield Specialization, and any feat that requires either of the 2.