Dealing with PC's who question everything.

[Ignashis]

So I have a group and I drew the map of an encounter out. The floor was a bunch of webs and quite a bit of it was sticky and the rest wasn't and to keep track of the sticky I drew it red while the non sticky was black. the map also had a design underneath that showed the same thing which helped me out so i didn't have to look at every single square. Now when they found out the color code they avoided it completely.

The one player said that if I didn't want them to use it to their advantage not to draw it out like that.

Now i couldn't respond back because I was just getting frustrated with him. I know that he really couldn't say that because the floor in the game isn't color coded and thus his character and everyone else's character's wouldn't know which part of the floor is and isn't sticky.

I've also DMed just a bit. I've been reading up on things that I forgot, and so on, but I've just about had it with them questioning everything I've done.

How do I deal with it.

[Aegis013]

Ask them politely to not metagame. Their characters wouldn't know this information, so they should roleplay accordingly.

If your characters can't distinguish player-knowledge from character-knowledge, you can ask them if they want to be allowed to metagame, but warn them that if they choose to do so, you will too.

Then have every encounter play to their weaknesses. This is passive aggressive and it would be better to stick with just talking to them about it. You're in the right here. They shouldn't use that information, and a DM's job is tough, ask them to cut you some slack.

[Gavinfoxx]

He's right. Unless you say, BEFORE they start playing on this, that you like to separate IC and OOC knowledge, and your character's don't know everything that is going on that you, as players can see in the battlemat, and you expect them to not react as if they know all of whats going on in the mat, than it's okay for them to assume that they are, you know, playing a tactical game and that their characters have all of the information as shown on the battlemat. Both methods are viable, but one is the default...

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

The problem with putting the info out on the mat is that it puts the players in a tough position. If they as players are ignorant of the information, they at least have a chance to avoid the sticky stuff without accusation. Once they know it's there, they either blithely run into it or get accused of metagaming.

My advice as far as traps go is to either keep it hidden to the players (no chance of metagaming outside cheating), or show it to both the players and the characters. If you do the latter, include something dynamic that might make them end up in the sticky stuff - put rubies and platinum in the webs, or put enemies who have the power to move people around (bull rush, gust of wind, knockback, setting sun, etc) in the room who know about the webs.

Since I don't know about your other escapades of players questioning your moves, I can't help you as much. Maybe ask them to save their complaints for after the game? Have characters been dying? That increases rules lawyering in my experience.

[Mando Knight]

If you want to have DM secrets like this, there is a reason we use things called "DM Screens." Hide the copy of the map which has the trap locations marked out behind it, and give them one without.

[MukkTB]

Hmm. I was in a dungeon with small party when we found what the DM called a 'treasure chest.' Immediately I shot it with an arrow and then it started trying to eat us. DM called it metagaming but I responded that my character did have the relevant knowledge skills and finding a 'treasure chest' in a place that had only previously contained broken wooden containers and little bits of garbage so that it looked as if it had been previously looted was deeply suspicious. Of course it all revolved around his use of the word 'treasure chest.' If he'd said, "Its a wooden chest that isn't totally ****ty," I would've jumped into the trap.

Was it metagaming? Well... I had a legit in character reason, but the way the DM described the object was my deciding factor.

Your case is clear. Other cases are more ambiguous. If a player makes a call you question, ask him what in game reasoning he was using. If his reasons come purely from outside the game, start throwing monsters at them that metagame and target their weaknesses, or at least threaten to do that.

[Psyren]

If you want to have DM secrets like this, there is a reason we use things called "DM Screens." Hide the copy of the map which has the trap locations marked out behind it, and give them one without.

This, seriously. Yeah you'll have to look between them both occasionally and even make a mistake once or twice, but saying "please don't metagame" generally leads to the "don't think about elephants" problem, which is worse.

[Hand_of_Vecna]

Not meta gaming is all well and good, but the OP drew traps on the battlemap. Does that seem wrong to anyone else.

To me this is the equivalent of getting mad cause you ran Tomb of Horrors and nobody was killed by the orb of annihilation in the first room.

[Ignashis]

I would have done that but I can't quite make perfect copies of the maps because the maps are ovals and circles that are quite big so making the two maps is hard to do.

I would also like to thank everyone that is helping me on this issue.

[Mando Knight]

Not meta gaming is all well and good, but the OP drew traps on the battlemap. Does that seem wrong to anyone else.
That's why I recommended the DM Screen and the second map.

I would have done that but I can't quite make perfect copies of the maps because the maps are ovals and circles that are quite big so making the two maps is hard to do.
It's called prep time. Using a scaled-down version for your secret map (condensed onto a sheet of graph paper is a common one) is also good.

[Ignashis]

Have characters been dying? That increases rules lawyering in my experience.

No they haven't been dying. In my opinion they aren't getting enough of a butt kicking. The character giving me the hardest time is the one complaining the most. He won't let me DM the way I want to Dm it. I'm ready to just shut down and give up. Some of the problem was my fault. The character in question is a rogue who robbed a magical shop and stole 19 magical objects. I rolled randomly if the item was normal, minor, medium, or major magical. in the end he got a total of 200k+ gold he then sold all of it and bought the entire regalia of the phoenix. Plus some other crap, the only good thing is that he did give the +4 heavy fortification shield to the fighter to use. But at level ten this seems kinda wrong and i'm not sure how to make it right.

[Ignashis]

It's called prep time. Using a scaled-down version for your secret map (condensed onto a sheet of graph paper is a common one) is also good.
I'm lucky if I get prep time. I'm really busy with work and helping my parents out.

[ScionoftheVoid]

I'm lucky if I get prep time. I'm really busy with work and helping my parents out.

If you don't have time to prepare properly then you should probably not be DMing. I don't have time to prepare this year so I'm not DMing, simple as that. Say as much to your players: you're busy and can't prepare enough to deal with characters well above WBL, they'll either have to go easy on you or have someone else DM. If you can still find time to play, that'd be great. Seeing another person DM is always a learning experience, and playing under them is even better. Maybe you can come back to the campaign later, but if you don't have enough time to prepare a separate copy of a map it doesn't sound like you can deal with this at the moment.

[Gavinfoxx]

You had ye olde magic shops with magic items in them that could actually be robbed without high level wizards bringing down hell on the robbers?

O,o

[Venetian Mask]

Wait... A magic shop owner who does not have alarm spells on his major magic items? What...? :smalleek:

That'd propably frighten me more than a wizard visiting horrible doom on me for stealing his baubles...

[Ravens_cry]

Indeed. Logically, if someone has high value items that can be fenced easily, then they are going to have a lot of protection to keep them from being stolen.
After all, these items are worth thousands, if not tens and potentially hundreds of thousands of gold.
A magic shop should have experienced guardians.
After all, if it was this easy to steal them, why hasn't it happened before?
And even if they do get away with it, they likely made powerful enemies. The mage guild does not take kindly to such actions, nor does the thieves guild, and now you have a league of very angry, high level characters out for your PC.
That might be an interesting adventure hook.
Players come to sell loot and the proprietor explains he has been robbed blind and can't sell them anything, nor does he have the coin to buy from them. If they catch the robbers before they sell stuff off, the owner will be able to help them and even give a cut rate in gratitude.

[legomaster00156]

I might recommend that they develop a reputation for the thievery, and no magic shop ever sells to them again. In addition, PUT HIGH-LEVEL GUARDS IN THE REMAINING SHOPS.

[Ignashis]

The player in question had a gem of true seeing, thus he could see the magical traps. His disable device skill is ridiculously high, he put every point he could into it, so he could bypass all the traps. and the city in question is Sigil city of doors, there are other magic shops to go to. However I like your idea of having high level NPC's after them now, Heck it could've been a Demon in disguise and immune to what he has, fight fire with fire so to say. I think I'll use that option too, except he disguised himself as a half-orc the disguise check was 30+ so yeah I think I'll just try to get rid of him or the equipment some how.

On another note, I'm not so busy to at least read through the sections they'll be going through and DM them, but just busy enough that I'm unable to make duplicate maps. Though since I'm not as busy today I've been going through to find all the maps that have traps and coping them.

Again thanks for the advice.

[Ignashis]

PUT HIGH-LEVEL GUARDS IN THE REMAINING SHOPS.

Will be doing so nice hired Powerful Demons or something.

[Gavinfoxx]

OH HECK. He robbed some shop in SIGIL?

Oh he's sooo going to get it now... shops in sigil. They have connections...

[killem2]

This is why I scan all my maps and print a black and white copy for myself that I can color code so they can't see it.

[MesiDoomstalker]

...the city in question is Sigil city of doors,...

Wait wait wait wait wait! Wait one cottone picking minute. This guy stole from a Magic Shop in Sigil and got away with it and was able to fence said items and buy stuff with the profits and had no comupence? Forgeting the fact that he stole from a high level caster, how does he not have no body chasing after him to kill him and recoup their loses. And you'd be entirly justified in doing so, in-game and out of game. He has become massively over-WBL and screwed with a high level, high-tier character. It would be only natural for you to have NPC's constantly harassing (read: attacking at every turn, no holds bar, bringing all power to bare) him. Starting the next session with just such an attack would be perfectly logical, no matter how you ended the last session. And if he complains that your targeting him, explain that his actions have consequences and that stealing from a high level Wizard who lives in Sigil will have severe ramifications. This is one situation where throwing constant, overwhelming encounters against him is completly justified. Just make sure he knows its because of his characters actions, not his real-life actions.

[Ignashis]

I've got it he may have gotten away with selling it, but in reality the objects were once owned by him, also they were marked once they left the building, thus they were able to know they were stolen. So he was scryed by a high level caster whos saving throw is too high for him to manage to pass thus he finds himself in trouble with the owner of the store. All store owners now have a picture of him under the counter and when spotted they call on people to get rid of him after he leaves the store.

Sound good to you guys.

If you think of something that could be added please respond.

[Ignashis]

over-WBL

Just curious what does that mean? I don't know all the short hand out there.

[MesiDoomstalker]

After a particularly hard encounter when hes low on HP or other resources, have a strike team teleport in and either kill him or capture him. Capture might be better so he can't complain but any smart Wizard shop keep in this situation would wait till a vulnerable position such as that. Seriously, don't hold back on this. A Wizard shopkeep in Sigil wouldn't hold back, so you shouldn't.

EDIT: Over Wealth By Level. As in he has more gold/items than he should at his given level. You said he was 10th and stole 200k+ worth of stuff. So ya, he has way too much wealth. Plus who he screwed with, he needs to feel the ramifications of such a grievious miscalculation. Stop thinking like a DM and a friend of this guy and start thinking like a high level Wizard shop keep in Sigil who just got robbed by a bloody little thief.

[Flickerdart]

Teleport. Hold Monster. "Thanks for moving my goods for me, I'll be taking my money now. Pleasure doing business." Teleport.

[Gavinfoxx]

WBL = Wealth By Level = that chart in the DMG that gives you a shorthand for how good a given character's useful set of equipmentshould be.

[MesiDoomstalker]

Teleport. Hold Monster. Disintegrate. Gust of Wind. "Thanks for moving my goods for me, I'll be taking my money now. Pleasure doing business." Teleport.

Fixed that for ya.:smallwink:

[bobthe6th]

over Wealth By Level. a level one psion with a psicrown of the crystal mind is an example. as in 3.5 WBL is a rather important mesure of power...


needs more active consequences. start scry and dieing him with level 10 rogues and inevitables. heck, just drop inevitables on him.

[Rubik]

Actually, it sounds like it's time for a headhunt, an ambush, taking everything the rogue has as recompense, and magical enslavement to work off the difference (naked, no less). Lots of magical bindings, and the threat of death if he doesn't do what the caster says.

Also, he's passed the magical signature of the thief to the shopkeepers' guild, so he'll be barred from any shop in the entire city for the rest of eternity.

[Ignashis]

Dang you guys are awesome I like the first response though but yeah maybe I could make it a quest hook as well do a quest for the wizard and he'll let him keep the regalia, also to keep the drow rogue from attacking him has epic adamantine constructs guarding him. Plus at least 4 levels higher then him rogues so he can't sneak attack them. Also need to come up with a cool mage name of sorts, decide on his class, such as wizard 5/magus 20.

[bobthe6th]

geas might be rather fun aswel... make him be the retriever of random artifacts for awile.

[dextercorvia]

I would have done that but I can't quite make perfect copies of the maps because the maps are ovals and circles that are quite big so making the two maps is hard to do.

I would also like to thank everyone that is helping me on this issue.

So you just laid the map of the dungeon out on the table? Did it have the little S marked on the wall in places and a label for BBEG?

[Flickerdart]

Actually, I have a better idea. Maybe the shopkeeper doesn't retaliate, because he's really just incompetent. But he's also been paying the right kind of money to the right kind of people.

So one night, the guy finds himself suspended above a vat of acid with very polite gentlemen asking what he was doing on their turf without a Thieves Guild license, robbing a paid-up "contributor". They will express that they are very unhappy with this situation, and apologize for what they are going to have to do next.

[Ignashis]

So you just laid the map of the dungeon out on the table? Did it have the little S marked on the wall in places and a label for BBEG?

No I drew the map on a mat so we can use our figures. I just colored the webs a different color so I didn't have to look at two maps to see if they got caught. But I think i'll end up doing just that from now on just to save on arguments sake.

Also I don't want to make him the victim of another geas/quest. he already has one on him at the moment. He also still has a gem of wish that he stole form another wealthy gem dealer. He only got a couple magic items from that one. But I let him do that because he started the game at 10th level with nothing but the clothes on his back. so this was a way for him to get up to the WBL.

[Ravens_cry]

Well . . .
It's partly your fault then. You encouraged the behaviour earlier, and now seem surprised when it comes back to metaphorically masticate your buttocks, so to speak.
It's a bit late now, but, without knowing too many details, you could have the gear in another room in the complex they found the guy, or have them fight a dude or set of dudes with similar skill set and hence similar gear.

[Ignashis]

Well . . .
It's partly your fault then. You encouraged the behaviour earlier, and now seem surprised when it comes back to metaphorically masticate your buttocks, so to speak.
It's a bit late now, but, without knowing too many details, you could have the gear in another room in the complex they found the guy, or have them fight a dude or set of dudes with similar skill set and hence similar gear.

If you're talking about the other geas/quest he opted for that before he joined the game.

And if it's about the first stealing then I already said it was partly my fault, but it has gone too far. He's only done two stealing in total. But that is not the point. His second was just ridiculous. He said they weren't getting enough gold out of the battle and such, so he went on a stealing spree so to say. but he got way too much money from it.

[nedz]

Teleport. Disintegrate, Quickened Gust of Wind. "Thanks for moving my goods for me, I'll be taking my money now. Pleasure doing business." Teleport.
FTFY :smallcool:


So one night, the guy finds himself suspended above a vat of acid with very polite gentlemen asking what he was doing on their turf without a Thieves Guild license, robbing a paid-up "contributor". They will express that they are very unhappy with this situation, and apologize for what they are going to have to do next.

No reason that several people shouldn't come after him, maybe arrange some kind of Ninety Xanatos Pile Up (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/AATAFOVS/NinetyXanatosPileUp)

Perhaps the Shopkeeper has a connection with a relevant temple, and they show up. Maybe some other Thief thinks the PC might be a soft touch. Maybe some vigilantes from Sigil show.

Just have them all, independantly, scry him - waiting for a moment of weakness - i.e. just after a big fight. Then: they all buff up and 'port in. Could be hilarious.

[Rubik]

FTFY :smallcool:



No reason that several people shouldn't come after him, maybe arrange some kind of Ninety Xanatos Pile Up (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/AATAFOVS/NinetyXanatosPileUp)

Perhaps the Shopkeeper has a connection with a relevant temple, and they show up. Maybe some other Thief thinks the PC might be a soft touch. Maybe some vigilantes from Sigil show.

Just have them all, independantly, scry him - waiting for a moment of weakness - i.e. just after a big fight. Then: they all buff up and 'port in. Could be hilarious.Have them all start arguing and fighting with each other in a completely over-the-top manner, so your rogue can get the hell out of Dodge.

Then they start coming at him one group at a time, though sometimes they run into each other and you have 3-sided (or more!) battles.

Could be fun.

[Little Brother]

Teleport, Flesh to Stone, Stone to Mud, Purify WaterFixed that for ya.:smallwink:Fixed that for ya:smallwink:

This guy pissed them off, they want retribution. Alive, forever, but with no awareness of the surrounding or anything? Yikes.

Dang you guys are awesome I like the first response though but yeah maybe I could make it a quest hook as well do a quest for the wizard and he'll let him keep the regalia, also to keep the drow rogue from attacking him has epic adamantine constructs guarding him. Plus at least 4 levels higher then him rogues so he can't sneak attack them. Also need to come up with a cool mage name of sorts, decide on his class, such as wizard 5/magus 20.No, no, no. Put a foot down. The rogue screwed up, make him pay the wizard. Also, this rogue is level 10. The wizard needs NOTHING around him to survive whatever the rogue will throw at him.

Actually, I have a better idea. Maybe the shopkeeper doesn't retaliate, because he's really just incompetent. But he's also been paying the right kind of money to the right kind of people.

So one night, the guy finds himself suspended above a vat of acid with very polite gentlemen asking what he was doing on their turf without a Thieves Guild license, robbing a paid-up "contributor". They will express that they are very unhappy with this situation, and apologize for what they are going to have to do next.Yes, this is so much better, this is awesome.

And if it's about the first stealing then I already said it was partly my fault, but it has gone too far. He's only done two stealing in total. But that is not the point. His second was just ridiculous. He said they weren't getting enough gold out of the battle and such, so he went on a stealing spree so to say. but he got way too much money from it.So, he's blaming his stupid behavior on you, the DM. Bad news, munchkin alert, etc. Follow the tables, stop giving him gold, and so on. Give them a lot of low-power magic items that explode painfully when touched by a drow, or whatever the thief is. Lessons is to be learned.

[Ravens_cry]

That's a bit passive aggressive for my tastes. Just take the player aside and inform them that actions like this will have logical, in game consequences and fulfil them.
The next place he tries to take down will have much, much higher protections, and shops, when they recognize him, refuse to do service.
Have the mages guild, the thieves guild and the city guard come after him, sending bounty hunters and adventurers to take him in. When he goes into an in, have him be recognized by one of the patrons, have the owner refuse to let him stay the night, and threaten to call the Watch.
Make his life hell in a logical way, have the world react in a realistic manner.

[Ignashis]

These are all possible things and now I need to decide on the right course of action.

But on a side note how would one say politely stop looking in the book to make sure I'm doing this right.

Okay so I get him to pay the fine with everything he bought with the money and return the rest of the money he stole. He gets a geas/quest put on him that he cannot steal or disguise himself in any sort of town, village, city, or anything like that. For 50 years, since he's a drow, and some other mean nasty effects.

This all explains why the shop didn't have a guard because of the anti-theft marks which are latent magic, that only becomes active when the wizard finds it gone the next morning. He keeps a record that he checks morning and evening. to see if things have gone missing. He doesn't mind a few thing going missing every once in a while eventually they come back to the store. But in this case he is PISSED half his inventory is gone and now it's time for payback.

What level should he be epic or non-epic. I'm voting for epic just cause.

I was also thinking of making the geas/quest being delivered by the Lady of Pain herself disguised of course since no one knows what she is. So it can't be dispelled by Wish or similar effect.

Fair or not fair. I think I've decided on a few things but beyond this i want to know what you guys think.

Also should the fighter be punished as well since he was the lookout at the time. I'm thinking yes but at the same time I don't think it should be as severe you know what I mean punished by association. If this is the case the whole group suffers as well. Such as 25% increase to prices on all items, drinks and such.

Opinions.

[MesiDoomstalker]

These are all possible things and now I need to decide on the right course of action.

But on a side note how would one say politely stop looking in the book to make sure I'm doing this right.

Okay so I get him to pay the fine with everything he bought with the money and return the rest of the money he stole. He gets a geas/quest put on him that he cannot steal or disguise himself in any sort of town, village, city, or anything like that. For 50 years, since he's a drow, and some other mean nasty effects.

This all explains why the shop didn't have a guard because of the anti-theft marks which are latent magic, that only becomes active when the wizard finds it gone the next morning. He keeps a record that he checks morning and evening. to see if things have gone missing. He doesn't mind a few thing going missing every once in a while eventually they come back to the store. But in this case he is PISSED half his inventory is gone and now it's time for payback.

What level should he be epic or non-epic. I'm voting for epic just cause.

I was also thinking of making the geas/quest being delivered by the Lady of Pain herself disguised of course since no one knows what she is. So it can't be dispelled by Wish or similar effect.

Fair or not fair. I think I've decided on a few things but beyond this i want to know what you guys think.

Also should the fighter be punished as well since he was the lookout at the time. I'm thinking yes but at the same time I don't think it should be as severe you know what I mean punished by association. If this is the case the whole group suffers as well. Such as 25% increase to prices on all items, drinks and such.

Opinions.

I like most of this idea. But not the Lady of Pain part. Thats a step to far in my opinion. And a price hike sounds in order if the party is still associated with the Rogue or at least until they can clear their name and restore their reputation. That way they have an "out."

[Mando Knight]

The character giving me the hardest time is the one complaining the most. He won't let me DM the way I want to Dm it.

What percentage of a living body is comprised of liquid?

...TO SAAAAAAANNND! (http://penny-arcade.com/comic/2011/12/02)

[Ignashis]

Mando that was just funny. He's over looking everything. Kinda like my buddy, only worse.

[Ignashis]

I was wondering exactly how to have the wizard find them when I realized that 1. there is no scry object spell. and 2. the wizard doesn't know anyone in the party, so the scry attempt gives the target a +15.

So I was wondering if he should use a wish spell to find out who stole from him. He could then glean some information from people, possibly a picture or two. reducing the bonus. Or he could just wish for the party to be in his chambers. surrounded by 4 adamantine Golems. His personal guard.

please let me know which one sounds better.

[bobthe6th]

locate object. also clairvoyance. also, as he is a wizard, in a city full of wizards. a "scry object" spell could have been worked out by the wizard guild. then boom, you have an awesome spell. and you have the chance to say "a wizard did it" and be serious.

[Flickerdart]

there is no scry object spell
Isn't there, though? (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/discernLocation.htm)

[Ravens_cry]

Particularity expensive magic items could arcane marked for an instant summons (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/instantSummons.htm). It could be even offered as a service as a guarantee "Sure, it costs a thousand gold, but if it ever gets stolen, we can get it back."

[Ignashis]

Well I like the instant summons spell idea. I couldn't remember locate object which doesn't work if the object in question is on another plane, but i like the sound of greater scry object better, and researched it to work across planes.

Also I've made my Wizard and need a cool name for him. Sadly I'm not very good with names.

[Ravens_cry]

Well, what kind of culture is he from? When I have a fantasy counterpart culture or at least one with a dominant influence, I like to choose names based on words and names from that culture.
Like a sympathetic orcish culture that used to rule the plains until a human/elven/dwarven alliance drove them to the rocky cliffs at the north western edge of the continent I give Welsh names. The place is called Clogwyni, the Welsh word for "Cliffs".
And sometimes, I just like the sound of a word I made up. The culture that drove the orcs to the cliffs is a Roman/British imperialist mix, the capital and name of *that* culture is simply Valdon, because I like the sound it, especially when snootily used with the full title: "The Imperial Republic of Valdon."
It just says "haughty and proud." to me.

[Flickerdart]

Also I've made my Wizard and need a cool name for him. Sadly I'm not very good with names.
Is your wizard an Enchanter? :smallamused:

[Ignashis]

No he's not an enchanter he's a diviner. He gets bonuses for what I need him to do. And culture born and raised in Sigil.

[Ravens_cry]

Is your wizard an Enchanter? :smallamused:
No.
Besides, he was obviously an evoker, or possibly an illusionist.

[Mando Knight]

Particularity expensive magic items could arcane marked for an instant summons (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/instantSummons.htm). It could be even offered as a service as a guarantee "Sure, it costs a thousand gold, but if it ever gets stolen, we can get it back."

It's called 1000gp of insurance. :smallamused:

[Ravens_cry]

It's called 1000gp of insurance. :smallamused:
Pretty much.
@Ignashis:
From what I know of Sigil, you could name him pretty much anything then. Perhaps include an orcish sounding first name with an elven surname, and have him be neither race.
Given Sigil status, it makes a certain amount of sense.

[Ignashis]

@Ravens_cry Thanks for the idea. I've actually chosen Kerosh Truesight as his name. I thought it went well with his specialty school.

At any rate I've got everything I need for now and thanks for all your guys help in this matter.

[Ignashis]

Everything worked out. The group now has a debt to pay off of 200+ thousand gold. It originally was at 500K. They were charged to fetch an artifact and return it to the wizard. However in the city on they're way back to give the artifact, a watch of sorts, the groups wizard put it on. The artifact is able to royally screw a mage. It makes a permanent bond with the the wearer. This means nothing can remove it save death. It allows the wearer to use Time Stop a number of times before it requires a recharge. During this recharge time a circle with a radius of 30ft around the person wearing the artifact is considered a wild magic zone. Any and all spells are redirected at the wearer to recharge the artifact, thus putting the effects of the spells on the wearer. This wild magic zone is in effect for 4-6 hours every time it runs out of power. It also renders magic items in the zone inactive as they're magic is also being siphoned off to charge the artifact. It's a fighters best friend and a wizards worst nightmare. However if the wearer is killed while a recharge was in effect the zone immediately dispels, allowing magic to be used normally.

What do you guys think.

[guatamala]

No they haven't been dying. In my opinion they aren't getting enough of a butt kicking. The character giving me the hardest time is the one complaining the most. He won't let me DM the way I want to Dm it. I'm ready to just shut down and give up. Some of the problem was my fault. The character in question is a rogue who robbed a magical shop and stole 19 magical objects. I rolled randomly if the item was normal, minor, medium, or major magical. in the end he got a total of 200k+ gold he then sold all of it and bought the entire regalia of the phoenix. Plus some other crap, the only good thing is that he did give the +4 heavy fortification shield to the fighter to use. But at level ten this seems kinda wrong and i'm not sure how to make it right. don't feel bad one guy decided not to read any rule books before trying to be the DM. our current DM and i basically exploited the fact he put the deck of many things in his campaign. we drew every card once wished away the bad effects, and then made our 4th level fighters and their 4th level fighters... and so on draw every card once. we took all of their magic items and wishes. i ended up with like 4.5 million gold at level 7 or 8. also i ran up to random people with the deck, and told them to say a number, and watched as they were killed by wraiths, were trapped, or had their soul stolen.

[Ignashis]

don't feel bad one guy decided not to read any rule books before trying to be the DM. our current DM and i basically exploited the fact he put the deck of many things in his campaign. we drew every card once wished away the bad effects, and then made our 4th level fighters and their 4th level fighters... and so on draw every card once. we took all of their magic items and wishes. i ended up with like 4.5 million gold at level 7 or 8. also i ran up to random people with the deck, and told them to say a number, and watched as they were killed by wraiths, were trapped, or had their soul stolen.

You do know that if you draw every card once from the deck it is still randomly drawn, so if you draw the void card first you're screwed, right.

[Rubik]

You do know that if you draw every card once from the deck it is still randomly drawn, so if you draw the void card first you're screwed, right.That's why you draw everything at the same time, then wish away the bad ones, including the Void.

Or just use a handy haversack to draw the cards you want, thereby avoiding the bad ones.

[Ignashis]

You can't say I draw the moon card, and expect to get it. You state how many you will draw so if the deck has 22, and you want to draw every card you state I'm going to draw 22 cards. Upon which each one is drawn individually. And those cards are mixed back in the deck, thus you are able to draw them again, except for two the jokers; which can only be drawn once per deck. So if you said 22 cards, and the void is the first one, you can no longer draw cards. However if you drew the Fates first and then the void you could stop it from happening, but the void goes back into the deck, allowing you the opportunity to draw it again. Besides not even wish or miracle fixes the void, it states that in the description of the card. Same thing with the skull card if you are slain wish or miracle can't bring you back.

[Venger]

You can't say I draw the moon card, and expect to get it. You state how many you will draw so if the deck has 22, and you want to draw every card you state I'm going to draw 22 cards. Upon which each one is drawn individually. And those cards are mixed back in the deck, thus you are able to draw them again, except for two the jokers; which can only be drawn once per deck. So if you said 22 cards, and the void is the first one, you can no longer draw cards. However if you drew the Fates first and then the void you could stop it from happening, but the void goes back into the deck, allowing you the opportunity to draw it again. Besides not even wish or miracle fixes the void, it states that in the description of the card. Same thing with the skull card if you are slain wish or miracle can't bring you back.

normally, yes.

with handy haversack/bag of holding/portable hole/etc. though, whatever you want that's in there is "on top" so you can get it out without rummaging.

this means you can draw the card you want. once you draw the card, hold onto it and draw the rest of the good cards and then cut the deck, pocket the good ones, fill out the bad cards with some dummies and go do terrible things to NPCs/enemies with them.

if your DM doesn't allow the sleight of handy haversack trick, no problem! the humble second level Augury comes to the rescue in literally the only thing that crappy spell is useful for:

cast it. specify "if I draw the top card from the deck, will the result be good or bad?"

if it gives you "weal" (good) draw a card. if it gives you "woe" (bad) make someone you don't like/don't care about draw the card. bingo bango, you're amazing

there's a reason decks of many things are never allowed.

[killem2]

I figured I should add, when I played years ago, and I would try and rule step my DM. I wasn't trying to be rude or anything but I was new to the game back then, and treated it as a "game" and that it had "hard rules" which wasn't true.

Finally he just took me aside and said, dude, you can't keep checking rules on me, that's part of the game, as the DM, I can bend these rules, so sometimes things will be out of place, just go with it ok?

And I was fine.

Your mileage may vary though lol.

[Ignashis]

if your DM doesn't allow the sleight of handy haversack trick, no problem! the humble second level Augury comes to the rescue in literally the only thing that crappy spell is useful for:

cast it. specify "if I draw the top card from the deck, will the result be good or bad?"

if it gives you "weal" (good) draw a card. if it gives you "woe" (bad) make someone you don't like/don't care about draw the card. bingo bango, you're amazing.

You forget about the other answer that spell can give out. Weal and Woe (for both). Besides what might not be good for you could be good for someone else.

As for the haversack/bag of holding. When you get the card you called for you didn't draw said card from the deck so the effects don't go off, and those bags allow you to grab items from them and for all intensive purposes the deck is one item. It is also an artifact and spells don't have an effect on them to determine if drawing a card is good or bad. Even commune wouldn't allow this. Also the card that gives you a -1 penalty on all saves specify's that only the fates or a deity can remove it so wish wouldn't have an effect on it. Even if wish states that it will undo a single recent event it means it forces a reroll of any roll in the last round. So in essence I would change it for the deck to allow a redraw from the deck but that would mean that the next result is either just as bad or worse then the original draw, and you have to take the new draw period.

[Rubik]

If you drew all at the same time (since you don't have to do so one-after-another), you just wish that you never drew the bad cards in the first place. They never happened, so you never have to undo them.

[Morph Bark]

Why couldn't they see the webs? Surely once they saw them they'd realize "ooh, those might be sticky", IC? :smallconfused: