Grammar possessive question

[danzibr]

So I'm a native English of speaker, but I've never been able to get the feel of something. Of the following, which sounds right to you all?

a) This is my wife's and I's cat.
b) This is my wife's and mine cat.
c) This is my wife and I's cat.
d) This is my wife and my cat.
e) This is my wife's and my cat.
f) This is my wife and I's cat.

Or something else. I'm guessing e is proper, but I'm not sure. How would this transfer to a sentence like, "This is Bill's and Bob's cat." Shouldn't it be, "This is Bill and Bob's cat?" Darn you, English.

[Flickerdart]

The simple answer is, of course, that you can't "own" a cat. Rather, the cat owns you. :smalltongue:

[Savannah]

E. You know that anything with "I's" or "mine" in it is wrong, as you don't say "This is I's cat" nor "This is mine cat". So the only possible options are d and e. Of those, e just sounds better.

[Weezer]

As savannah said e. The reason it isn't d is because d can be interpreted as you talking about your wife and your cat, not about the cat that both you and your wife own.

Actually strike that, Flickerdart has the correct answer.

[nerd-7i+42e]

My understanding is that it depends whether or not you want to consider yourself and your wife as one unit. If you do, it's d (although it is ambiguous, like Weezer said, so you ought to avoid it if possible). But if you and your wife are separate entities, it's e.

[Dogmantra]

Personally, I'd reword it more along the lines of "My wife and I, this is our cat."

[Tirian]

Everyone is right about the first part.


How would this transfer to a sentence like, "This is Bill's and Bob's cat." Shouldn't it be, "This is Bill and Bob's cat?" Darn you, English.

This is more a matter of style -- I'd say that either could be more correct depending on context. Let me give two separate examples.

- San Francisco's and Denver's populations were excited about the Super Bowl.
- I'm going to my mom and dad's house for the holidays.

In the first sentence, San Francisco and Denver are two clearly separate nouns and they each deserve their own possessive because I'm talking about the population of San Francisco and the population of Denver. But in the latter sentence, the house belongs to the compound noun phrase "mom and dad" and so two possessives would detract from the clarity.

In your case, if Bill and Bob (think they) own a cat together, then I'd be inclined to call the two of them a single noun and use only one possessive. But if it gets crazy enough to be unclear either way, then just invert it to say "This cat belongs to Bill and Bob."

[Weezer]

Personally, I'd reword it more along the lines of "My wife and I, this is our cat."

While I think that is technically correct, it sounds very awkward and stilted. I wouldn't go that way if you were looking for a sentence that sounds natural.

[Savannah]

Yeah, "My wife and I, this is our cat" sounds really weird. If you're rephrasing, I'd suggest, "This cat belongs to my wife and me."

[Aedilred]

I would have thought "this is mine and my wife's cat" would deal with the issue relatively elegantly.

[OracleofWuffing]

Depends on how close you're standing to the cat (http://xkcd.com/231/).

[Savannah]

I would have thought "this is mine and my wife's cat" would deal with the issue relatively elegantly.

Except for it being grammatically incorrect. The "you" bit always goes after the "other people" bit, and "mine" is incorrect in this context (needs to be "my").

[Dogmantra]

While I think that is technically correct, it sounds very awkward and stilted. I wouldn't go that way if you were looking for a sentence that sounds natural.

This is the sort of pedantry up with which etc etc.

Actually, while you're right, I'd probably still use it because I love that construction no matter how awkward it sounds. Just like p'rhaps. Man, p'rhaps.

[Weezer]

This is the sort of pedantry up with which etc etc.

Actually, while you're right, I'd probably still use it because I love that construction no matter how awkward it sounds. Just like p'rhaps. Man, p'rhaps.

That is something I can understand, I tend to use pretty odd grammatical constructions myself at times just due to the fact that I find them appealing. I like using nested clauses often, despite the fact that they can sound weird.

[Mando Knight]

Yeah, "My wife and I, this is our cat" sounds really weird. If you're rephrasing, I'd suggest, "This cat belongs to my wife and me."

Or "This cat is my wife's and mine."

[SaintRidley]

This is our cat.

If necessary, you explain who the other party is. Generally, though, if you have a spouse and you're talking about an obviously shared sort of possession (a house, a child, a cat, etc.) then it's generally safe to just speak in the first person plural possessive and people know. If they don't, that's why you clarify after.

This is our cat.

???

It belongs to my wife and me. We named him Sgt. Fuzzyboots.

[danzibr]

Yeah... I know you'd never use I's by itself, but for some (probably strange) reason, it almost sounds plausible to me in this situation. Probably because in middle school I was drilled on the whole "This person and I" thing.

Anyways, thanks for the responses. I'll probably stick with the no 's on the first (or otherwise changing things to possessive).

[Heliomance]

Actually, "My wife and me's cat" is probably okay, using "my wife and me" as one noun. Sounds odd, though.

[llamamushroom]

Actually, "My wife and me's cat" is probably okay, using "my wife and me" as one noun. Sounds odd, though.

That sounds perfectly normal to me, but I do come from Australia, where we talk funny.

And I think your decision is probably the most correct one, danzibr, as was redonkulously well explained by Tirian.

This has given me an idea for my next class, though... :smallamused:

[Kneenibble]

Except for it being grammatically incorrect. The "you" bit always goes after the "other people" bit, and "mine" is incorrect in this context (needs to be "my").

As far as I know, the first-person delay only occurs in the nominative case. It's perfectly correct to say "give that to me and my friend," for example.


Actually, "My wife and me's cat" is probably okay, using "my wife and me" as one noun. Sounds odd, though.

In your construction, me is incorrect because the personal pronoun ought to be in the nominative case.



What I would say:

This cat is my wife's and mine.
or This cat is mine and my wife's.

It you look at "wife's" as an abbreviated genitive case, rather than a word with a strange alien addition of an 's on the end, it makes better sense.

Of course, if I had a wife and a cat, I might not be using the Internet to debate English grammar at 10:30 on a Saturday.

[Worira]

Well, I'm not sure what you personally would be doing with said wife, anyway.

Anyway, while "my wife and I's cat" is grammatically incorrect, it's also a fairly commonly-used construction.

[THAC0]

Solution: My wife and I have a cat.

For some reason, I dislike "wife's," probably because it's frequently misused in situations that call for the word "wives." Fortunately, I am rarely in a situation where I would have to use the word.

[Worira]

That's not actually saying what the original poster wanted to, though, unless you add "This is that cat".

[THAC0]

In that case, just say "this is our cat." Easy and done.

I'm having trouble envisioning a situation where that would be easily misinterpreted.

[Kneenibble]

Well, I'm not sure what you personally would be doing with said wife, anyway.

Cheating on her with some athletic dude, most likely.


In that case, just say "this is our cat." Easy and done.

I'm having trouble envisioning a situation where that would be easily misinterpreted.

You're missing the point of the grammar pedantry.

[Abies]

As pertains to grammar snobbery: who cares?

Literally... in the practice of actual human existence: who cares? If one does care, why? To justify your Masters/Bachelors of Arts in English degree, why?

Further, what person would take the individual who chose to take exception with any "improper" wording of such a phrase seriously? Answer: no one. Ever. NO, not even then.

Questions without rational/reasonable answers are often fun to ask, but in a case such as this... I can see no merit. The academic "answer" will never satisfy whoever is asking, there will always be an alternative found more attractive.

[Heliomance]

As pertains to grammar snobbery: who cares?

Literally... in the practice of actual human existence: who cares? If one does care, why? To justify your Masters/Bachelors of Arts in English degree, why?

Further, what person would take the individual who chose to take exception with any "improper" wording of such a phrase seriously? Answer: no one. Ever. NO, not even then.

Questions without rational/reasonable answers are often fun to ask, but in a case such as this... I can see no merit. The academic "answer" will never satisfy whoever is asking, there will always be an alternative found more attractive.

The rules of English are, despite appearances, rigourous enough (is it rigorous instead of rigourous even using British spelling? The base word is rigour, but rigourous doesn't look right) that there is an actual right answer. Improper grammar (on the level of misuse of your/you're, its/it's, there/their/they're) is painful to behold, but if we correct others without ensuring that our own grammar is flawless, we are nought but hypocrites.

Besides which, it's fun. And asking "who cares?" in a thread full of people who clearly do care is a tad daft.

[danzibr]

As pertains to grammar snobbery: who cares?

Literally... in the practice of actual human existence: who cares? If one does care, why? To justify your Masters/Bachelors of Arts in English degree, why?

Further, what person would take the individual who chose to take exception with any "improper" wording of such a phrase seriously? Answer: no one. Ever. NO, not even then.

Questions without rational/reasonable answers are often fun to ask, but in a case such as this... I can see no merit. The academic "answer" will never satisfy whoever is asking, there will always be an alternative found more attractive.
Actually, these are valid questions. I believe published writing should have proper grammar, and I'm writing something which I hope to publish someday. So... I care about proper grammar (or grammar snobbery).

Also, I was interested in what simply sounds right to people, even if incorrect. Worira helped me out there.

And Heliomance, I always use rigorous when typing math stuff.

[Dogmantra]

(is it rigorous instead of rigourous even using British spelling? The base word is rigour, but rigourous doesn't look right)

Normally I'd not make a post to talk about a tangental question, but I think given the thread I can justify it. I'm not entirely sure about this exact word, but I point you towards humorous which is spelt minus U, even in UK English. I'd imagine rigour would work the same way (though I wouldn't be too surprised if it turned out that it didn't, this is English after all).

[Yora]

That sounds perfectly normal to me, but I do come from Australia, where we talk funny.
"'Tis me and me wenches our cat!"

Sounds perfectly normal to a pirate. :smallbiggrin:

What has always puzzled me is how "my wife's cat" ever became considered correct spelling in english. An apostrophe is always a stand in for a letter that gets dropped because words get contracted. The genitive case is the only except to that at all.
"My wife's at work" makes perfect sense. But "my wife's cat"? What letter is the ' stand for? Why not "my wives cat"?

I would also say, that e) is the best option. "my" is always possessive so if using anything else for possessive, why would it exist at all?

[Heliomance]

"'Tis me and me wenches our cat!"

Sounds perfectly normal to a pirate. :smallbiggrin:

What has always puzzled me is how "my wife's cat" ever became considered correct spelling in english. An apostrophe is always a stand in for a letter that gets dropped because words get contracted. The genitive case is the only except to that at all.
"My wife's at work" makes perfect sense. But "my wife's cat"? What letter is the ' stand for? Why not "my wives cat"?

Apostrophes are also used for possessives. It's another exception. I don't actually know what the genitive is, so I can't comment on that.

[Dogmantra]

Apostrophes are also used for possessives. It's another exception. I don't actually know what the genitive is, so I can't comment on that.

Correct me if I'm wrong anyone who actually knows about Old/Middle English, but I've heard that it stands in for an E, so it'd be, say, Brianes cat, which got shortened to "Brian's cat".

[Tirian]

And Heliomance, I always use rigorous when typing math stuff.

That's goodful to hear. :smalltongue:

[Weezer]

As pertains to grammar snobbery: who cares?

Literally... in the practice of actual human existence: who cares? If one does care, why? To justify your Masters/Bachelors of Arts in English degree, why?

Further, what person would take the individual who chose to take exception with any "improper" wording of such a phrase seriously? Answer: no one. Ever. NO, not even then.

Questions without rational/reasonable answers are often fun to ask, but in a case such as this... I can see no merit. The academic "answer" will never satisfy whoever is asking, there will always be an alternative found more attractive.

Firstly, this is not grammar snobbery, we aren't jumping over someone for using the wrong grammar, we're talking about a question that involves grammar. If we were talking about how to correctly calculate the enthalpy of reaction for a chemical reaction, would that be chemistry snobbery? I think not.

And, despite what you may think, grammar is important. As I pointed out earlier the construction ''my wife and my cat'' could be read as meaning something completely different than intended. There is a purpose to correct grammar, that being to ensure that we can be understood clearly and with a minimum of ambiguity.

And people do care, inaccurate grammar in any important document, whether it's a published novel or simply a company memo that will be seen by the CEO, should be avoided.

[Gwyn chan 'r Gwyll]

My mother the professional book editor says that the correct one is "My wife and my", as you share the cat and thus only one possessive 's' is used.

[Tirian]

My mother the professional book editor says that the correct one is "My wife and my", as you share the cat and thus only one possessive 's' is used.

I hope she went on to say that all of the choices were troublesome and the sentence should be rewritten if she abandoned e. I mean, let's say that I've got a photograph of my wife and my doctor. How many people are in that picture? According to your mother's style, it could be just one: the doctor that my wife and I share. But that's not what anyone is expecting when they look at the picture.

[Kneenibble]

Correct me if I'm wrong anyone who actually knows about Old/Middle English, but I've heard that it stands in for an E, so it'd be, say, Brianes cat, which got shortened to "Brian's cat".

You are right.

Except, as Yora hilariously bemoans, with words like wife that end in an e, it's not replacing anything. I have no idea how the abbreviated genitive came to be -- my guess is that it has to do with shortening itself for verse feet like some step-sister into a glass shoe; but perhaps someone could elucidate me.


My mother the professional book editor says that the correct one is "My wife and my", as you share the cat and thus only one possessive 's' is used.

God bless your mother, but that leads to a phrase begging to be tickled the likes of "eats shoots and leaves."

"This is my wife and my cat."
"She has a lovely tail."

[SaintRidley]

You are right.

Except, as Yora hilariously bemoans, with words like wife that end in an e, it's not replacing anything. I have no idea how the abbreviated genitive came to be -- my guess is that it has to do with shortening itself for verse feet like some step-sister into a glass shoe; but perhaps someone could elucidate me.


The apostrophe in cases like wife's is kind of an artifact of when words like wife did not end in an e. It's mostly there to be consistent with how the genitive works in English today, and it is still replacing the original genitive e. The e at the end of the modern word got added later, after the genitive e was dropped in English. It probably got added to the word around the great vowel shift.

So wyf -> wyfes in Old English, wif -> wifes in Middle English, drop the genitive e and we have wif -> wif's, vowel shift and we have wife -> wife's.

Prior to the vowel shift, wife rhymed with beef. The e at the end is a marker for pronunciation, which is why it's there today.

[Kneenibble]

The apostrophe in cases like wife's is kind of an artifact of when words like wife did not end in an e. It's mostly there to be consistent with how the genitive works in English today, and it is still replacing the original genitive e. The e at the end of the modern word got added later, after the genitive e was dropped in English. It probably got added to the word around the great vowel shift.

So wyf -> wyfes in Old English, wif -> wifes in Middle English, drop the genitive e and we have wif -> wif's, vowel shift and we have wife -> wife's.

Prior to the vowel shift, wife rhymed with beef. The e at the end is a marker for pronunciation, which is why it's there today.

Thank you, but I'm more looking for the specific circumstances that brought about the apostrophe genitive. It was a change in Middle English? Do you know why?

[SaintRidley]

Thank you, but I'm more looking for the specific circumstances that brought about the apostrophe genitive. It was a change in Middle English? Do you know why?

Just stopped pronouncing the vowel in the genitive ending. We took the apostrophe from the French and started using it to hold the place (they used the apostrophe as a written marker of elision) and used it the same. By the 1700s it had just become standard for all singular genitives.

Oh, also just found that it seems that the question of what the apostrophe was replacing led to some folk etymology back in the late 16th and early 17th centuries. The his genitive (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/His_genitive) basically assumed that it stood for the word his. So St. James's Park becomes St. James his Park. This sort of construction was only popular in English for that brief time, but it's standard in languages like Afrikaans.

[danzibr]

So I have another grammar question, though it probably doesn't deserve its own thread. Its about lay and lie.

For one thing, I didn't know/hadn't thought of the difference between transitive and intransitive verbs until a couple years ago. Now I get lay is transitive, lie is intransitive, and their past tenses are, respectively, laid and lay. But then a sentence like, "Last night I lay down in bed" just sounds funny to me... is it correct?

[Weezer]

So I have another grammar question, though it probably doesn't deserve its own thread. Its about lay and lie.

For one thing, I didn't know/hadn't thought of the difference between transitive and intransitive verbs until a couple years ago. Now I get lay is transitive, lie is intransitive, and their past tenses are, respectively, laid and lay. But then a sentence like, "Last night I lay down in bed" just sounds funny to me... is it correct?

Yes it is correct, for the reasons you stated. If you swap it doesn't it sound a lot worse? "Last night I laid down in bed" just sounds bad.

[danzibr]

Yes it is correct, for the reasons you stated. If you swap it doesn't it sound a lot worse? "Last night I laid down in bed" just sounds bad.
Hmm... it must be where I grew up or something, but to me the one you said sounds better. Weird.

[Kneenibble]

Just stopped pronouncing the vowel in the genitive ending. We took the apostrophe from the French and started using it to hold the place (they used the apostrophe as a written marker of elision) and used it the same. By the 1700s it had just become standard for all singular genitives.

Oh, also just found that it seems that the question of what the apostrophe was replacing led to some folk etymology back in the late 16th and early 17th centuries. The his genitive (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/His_genitive) basically assumed that it stood for the word his. So St. James's Park becomes St. James his Park. This sort of construction was only popular in English for that brief time, but it's standard in languages like Afrikaans.

Neat. Thank you. SaintRidley his scholarship is bona fide.
(Although you could as well be female, I wanted to try it out. :smalltongue:)

[Anarion]

I get the feeling a lot of people in this thread took Latin. I just don't expect to see people referring to the genitive case out of the blue like that, since it's not really a commonly used term in English.

As for the actual sentence, I think this grammar problem doesn't have a definitive answer without context. "This is my wife and my cat" is the better construction. However, because of the ambiguity it introduces, I would only allow its use if the surrounding paragraph firmly established that you were discussing a single animal of the feline persuasion.

If your wife has already been identified, "This is our cat" is by far the most elegant construction possible. Alas, it's entirely out of the running if your wife hasn't been mentioned leading up to the sentence.

"This is my wife's and my cat" is clear and grammatically acceptable, but it's terribly clunky, which makes it undesirable. Depending on the emphasis of the sentence I might rephrase it either as "This cat belong to my wife and me" or "My wife and I own this cat." Replacing the verb to be with active verbs always solves the problem!

[The Succubus]

I would consider the phrase in dire need of rephrasing. E would do at a stretch but a far more grammatically elegant option would be:

"This cat belongs to my wife and myself."

In addition, this being the Internet, pictures of the afforementioned kitty are obligatory.

[danzibr]

I would consider the phrase in dire need of rephrasing. E would do at a stretch but a far more grammatically elegant option would be:

"This cat belongs to my wife and myself."

In addition, this being the Internet, pictures of the afforementioned kitty are obligatory.
True, true.
http://i1139.photobucket.com/albums/n552/danzibr/Nani.jpg

[Heliomance]

I would consider the phrase in dire need of rephrasing. E would do at a stretch but a far more grammatically elegant option would be:

"This cat belongs to my wife and myself."

In addition, this being the Internet, pictures of the afforementioned kitty are obligatory.

Ah, but then you're using the passive voice, which, while grammatically acceptable, is unusual and terribly stilted.

[Tirian]

"This cat belongs to my wife and myself."

http://chrishibbard.hubpages.com/hub/Grammar_Mishaps_myself_vs_me

[Heliomance]

And yet, "This cat belongs to my wife and my own good self" would be perfectly acceptable, if pompous :P

[Zeb The Troll]

A great rule of thumb when determining what pronoun to use, in general as well as in complex possessive constructions, is to deconstruct the phrase and determine which pronouns you would use and go from there. If people would take a moment to do this I think we'd see a lot less "such and I's something-or-other", like "Hey, come to Brian and I's house and try my mom and I's lasagna recipe". If you take out Brian and "my mom" from the phrases, it becomes clear that "I" is totally incorrect (aside from the fact, as someone mentioned earlier, that "I" is never used as a possessive, ever). This particular construction, though, sees the light of day far too much for my liking and it grates on my every nerve, even more than your/you're//they're/their/there misses.


E would do at a stretch but a far more grammatically elegant option would be:

"This cat belongs to my wife and myself."Please don't. Reflexive pronouns are overused, most often incorrectly, and almost always unnecessarily. The purpose of a reflexive pronoun is merely to emphasize the "self" in a statement. e.g. "I did this myself." However, note that the exact same sentiment can be derived from simply stating "I did this."

Using the aforementioned rule of thumb, one would probably never say "This cat belongs to myself." Pedantically, there's also no object or subject to which the pronoun can be reflexively referring, either stated or implied.

I'm not actually imagining any situation where the non-reflexive pronoun is patently wrong whereas there are many situations where the reflexive pronoun is.

(And as I read the link provided above, I notice that it says the exact same thing I just said, but more clearly. Ah well.)