Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten

[Squark]

Welcome to the Sixth Warhammer 40k fluff thread. Why do we have a fluff thread and a tabletop thread? Well, because, to put it bluntly, arguments about fluff can take up a lot of space. And that makes it hard for people to get critiques on their list. So, if you want to find out how many active necron tomb worlds there are, what color schemes you should consider for your Blood Angel's Successor chapter, or how many problems the Tau empire has, here's the place.

Just remember, in the Grim Darkness of the future, there is only pointless bickering!

Previous Threads
Thread I: Warning: No Fanboys Allowed (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=105150) (:smalltongue:)
Thread II: Heresy Grows From Idleness (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=128240)
Thread III: Warhammer 40K Fluff Discussion III: You're Emprah? Well I didn't vote for you! (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=7807655#post7807655)
Thread IV: Warhammer 40K Fluff Discussion IV (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=170857)
Thread V:Warhammer 40k Fluff Discussion V -WARNING: May Contain Heresy (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=198131)

Speaking of the Tau, I believe we were currently bickering over how evil the Tau Empire is.

[GolemsVoice]

The new title is fine, but I believe it should have discussion throne at the end. If that's too long, maybe get a new title?

[Tychris1]

Yeah I think it might be because it is to long. Might I recommend the title

They see me Ward'en, they haten

Edit: To actually talk about fluff though I have a few questions:

1. How nimble are Space Marines/How much would power armor hamper their nimbleness?
2. Do they still make music/make movies in the grimdark future of the 41sr millenium?

I ask this because a friend of mine sculpted his Daemon hammer wielding Grey knights to have them "Hammer Dance" instead of wield actually hammers.

[Trixie]

Yeah I think it might be because it is to long. Might I recommend the title

They see me Ward'en, they haten

Yes :smallbiggrin:


1. How nimble are Space Marines/How much would power armor hamper their nimbleness?

Well, DoW II intro suggest quite nimble, actually...


2. Do they still make music/make movies in the grimdark future of the 41sr millenium?

Cain series mentions dozens of titles, much of it will be propaganda, though...


I ask this because a friend of mine sculpted his Daemon hammer wielding Grey knights to have them "Hammer Dance" instead of wield actually hammers.

Do what? :smallconfused:

[GolemsVoice]

1. How nimble are Space Marines/How much would power armor hamper their nimbleness?

I've heard that SMs are actually incredibly nimble (superhuman and all) and power armour enhances that further, it doesn't hinder them at all.

[Cheesegear]

1. How nimble are Space Marines/How much would power armor hamper their nimbleness?

Power Armour increases their dexterity and ability to jump and move around. That's kind of the point of Astartes Power Armour, rather than the kind that Inquisitors and things wear.

What they don't have in Power Armour, is fine motor skills. Being as they have big, metal, cement hands. Everything needs to be made bigger for a Marine.
And, in a recent novel (for the life of me I can't remember which it is), a Marine has to snap off the trigger guard of a looted gun so he can actually put his finger on the trigger.

[The Glyphstone]

'TALK FOR THE TALK THRONE' would fit, if be a little bit of a mouthful.

[Squark]

Yeah I think it might be because it is to long. Might I recommend the title

They see me Ward'en, they haten

Edit: To actually talk about fluff though I have a few questions:

1. How nimble are Space Marines/How much would power armor hamper their nimbleness?
2. Do they still make music/make movies in the grimdark future of the 41sr millenium?

I ask this because a friend of mine sculpted his Daemon hammer wielding Grey knights to have them "Hammer Dance" instead of wield actually hammers.


If a few more people would like this one better, I'll change it.

As far as 2. goes, undoubtedly. They'd most likely have a propaganda spin on them, but, hey, people watch war films today (Which are often sponsored by the military because popular war films boost recruitment). So, just because most media in the 41st millennium has a propaganda component doesn't mean it doesn't have a pop culture element.

Minor question; How does a power fist work? Is it solely used for punching, or does it also get used for tearing? And how do power weapons in general "work"

[The Glyphstone]

2. 'Holodramas' are the movie equivalent. They get a few mentions in the Cain books.

[hamishspence]

Power Armour increases their dexterity and ability to jump and move around. That's kind of the point of Astartes Power Armour, rather than the kind that Inquisitors and things wear.

In Cain's Last Stand, the Sisters demonstrate increased mobility in power armour as well.

[Wraith]

Minor question; How does a power fist work? Is it solely used for punching, or does it also get used for tearing? And how do power weapons in general "work"

Power Fists are used to punch and tear - while being oversized compared to ordinary gloves, they still have enough dexterity to grab something and pick it up (so long as you deactivate the Energy Field first, otherwise it's going to all end in tears....)

Most of the damage is done, however, by the 'aura' of power around the weapon, rather than the weapon itself. An "energy field" surrounds all power weapons, which tears apart anything it comes into contact with - kind of like a light sabre, I suppose, but in this case there's also a big honkin' sword in the middle of it to hack into whatever isn't burned. :smallbiggrin:

So in effect, the Power Field damages and weakens whatever comes near it, while the Fist itself is used to pull off/smash chunks of weakened material with augmented strength above that or ordinary Power Armour. I don't think there's any real-world comparison to how the energy field works - I can't think of anywhere that gives any kind of handwave explanation for "how" it works, only that "it does".

[deuterio12]

So, somebody in the other thread claimed the Imperium controls 3/4 of the galaxy. I call b***** on that for the simple fact if they controled that much, they couldn't possibly be besieged/menaced by all sides as they would have more resources than everybody else put togheter (blah nids blah those just arrived much later). Plus orks are mentioned as being literally everywhere.



Speaking of the Tau, I believe we were currently bickering over how evil the Tau Empire is.

Speaking of which, I dare Golemsvoice to point the "several sources" that claim the Tau use mass sterilization. Bonus points if those sources aren't from the faction that regularly exterminatus sterelizes whole planets. From his own side.

Even if the Tau are "evil" by our standards, they're still goody two-shoes when compared to the Imperium that preaches ignorance, slavery, xenophoby, terror and pain in incomprhessible scales. No wonder Chaos has so much power when the IoM daily feeds it with so much violence, decay and corruption.

[Eldan]

That's really hard to tell... they seem to have at least some worlds in just about every part of the galaxy, but their coverage, so to speak, is really loose, with large holes between Imperial worlds.

[Brother Oni]

In Cain's Last Stand, the Sisters demonstrate increased mobility in power armour as well.

Increased mobility yes, but not to the degree exhibited by the marines - it's why they have the Black Carapace after all.

Because of this, I'd also argue the lack of fine motor control in power armour - things having to be resized for them doesn't mean things have to be made less sensitive for them, otherwise normal humans would have trouble pulling the triggers of bolters as the pull weight is set too high for them, or Cheesegear's aforementioned marine accidentally crushing the grip and trigger of his looted gun.

[GolemsVoice]

Speaking of which, I dare Golemsvoice to point the "several sources" that claim the Tau use mass sterilization. Bonus points if those sources aren't from the faction that regularly exterminatus sterelizes whole planets. From his own side.

Dawn of War Dark Crusade, and apparently, Deathwatch, the RPG, which I haven't read, but I'll take hamishspence's word on this one. You'll not that the RPGs are considered a good source of 40K information by most of the people in this thread.

Bonus points, though, for you failing to realize that Exterminatus isn't something the Imperium is doing for fun, but because it's neccessary. Habitable planets are rare as hell, and the Imperium isn't going to sacrifice them just because somebody had a bad day. They are serious about this.

And again, you claim to love the senseless violence of 40K, but the Imperium exterminating planets is somehow "bad"? Or the Tau are utopian nice guys is cool and ok, while a Space Marine actually talking sense is boring and unneccesary?

But since we're doing challenges, what about Commander Farsight, who ran away with a sept of Tau? Seems like living in an ideal society wasn't enough for him, and something drove him into exile? Care to explain why somebody that should, as a commander, benefit the most from the caste system of the Tau turn his back on them?


things having to be resized for them doesn't mean things have to be made less sensitive for them, otherwise normal humans would have trouble pulling the triggers of bolters as the pull weight is set too high for them, or Cheesegear's aforementioned marine accidentally crushing the grip and trigger of his looted gun.

I think bolters for normal humans are slightly different than what Space Marines carry. Dark Heresy says something to that account.

[Squark]

I think bolters for normal humans are slightly different than what Space Marines carry. Dark Heresy says something to that account.

From what I've heard, Deathwatch confirms this, as the bolters available to the players in that game are much more effective than those available in the other settings; In the innitial rulebook, the Bolt Pistol actually does more damage than Dark Heresy's Heavy Bolters, and their combat knives deal more damage than the swords in Dark Heresy and Rogue trader. There is an errata that scales the damage back a bit.

[hamishspence]

So, somebody in the other thread claimed the Imperium controls 3/4 of the galaxy. I call b***** on that for the simple fact if they controled that much, they couldn't possibly be besieged/menaced by all sides as they would have more resources than everybody else put togheter (blah nids blah those just arrived much later). Plus orks are mentioned as being literally everywhere.

It's not that they control 3/4 of the galaxy- it's that they occupy planets across 3/4 of the galaxy.

However, even within "Imperium territory" only a tiny proportion of systems have Imperium personnel or equipment.

Even if it's "inhabitable worlds"- they're still likely to be in the minority.

"Points of light in a sea of darkness" so to speak.

Dawn of War Dark Crusade, and apparently, Deathwatch, the RPG, which I haven't read, but I'll take hamishspence's word on this one. You'll not that the RPGs are considered a good source of 40K information by most of the people in this thread.
The precise quote from Deathwatch:

page 352:

The Sept's humans (referred to by the Tau as "Gue'la") adhere not to the Imperial Creed, but to the Tau ideal of the Greater Good. The Tau teach that the perfect society, one modelled after the Tau themselves, has a place for every creature; with every creature in that place, fulfilling their assigned roles without question, for the good of the Sept as a whole. Imperial religion is prohibited and the Tau Water Caste run education (and re-education) programs that instil an understanding and love of the Greater Good into the sometimes reluctant gue'la minds. Populations are regularly sterilised to prevent population growth outstretching Tau methods of control. Human transgressors against the Greater Good are not publicly executed, as is the Imperial way, for the Tau see no need to publicise the fates of those who oppose them. Instead, such gue'la simply disappear, and it is the way of the Greater Good to convince oneself that they never existed at all.

[GolemsVoice]

Aaaand there you have it. Brainwashing, sterilization, torture, inqusition.

[Borgh]

To summarize the Tau/IoM debate as i see it:
The tau are 1984-inspired (re: re-education programs ect.) communists (know your place or "disappear") where the IoM are more bad-Colonial age (execute those who don't comply) Nazis (xenopobic and genocidal) with a side order of Paranoia.

[Ricky S]

Minor question; How does a power fist work? Is it solely used for punching, or does it also get used for tearing? And how do power weapons in general "work"

I liked to imagine a powerfist as tool that is used to either pimp slap people or high five them.

[Parra]

I liked to imagine a powerfist as tool that is used to either pimp slap people or high five them.

or Bro fistbump

[GolemsVoice]

I'm sure the Codex Astartes forbids such things!

[Platinius]

Even without disruption field a powerfist has to be an impressive, if exotic, close combat weapon, considering it essentially works like the hydraulic equipment of modern firefighters.

[nolispe]

I'm sure the Codex Astartes forbids such things!

Forbids... Or specifically mandates? I suspect it's in big letters when it gets to the Power Fist section. "THOU SHALT FISTBUMP YO' BROS", right beside the famous "Bro's before Ho's" section in the reproduction sermons.
And that's not even getting into the number of the 666 rituals of the Grey Knights that involve fistbumps, hi-fives, and the most holy and righteous breakdancing* of the Emperor.
In fact, I suspect the precise circumstance of Fistbumps was the primary split that led to so many chapters altering their versions of the Codex Astartes.



* Preformed in full power armor, of course.

[Talkkno]

The Imperium's GRIM DARK aspects are mostly just a gloss IMO, given how decentralized it is.

Same thing for the Tau to a lesser extent, since their bad FTL and no FTL communications, what one sept does, doesn't really have any bearing on what another sept might be doing.

I think the saying
"Heaven is high up and the Emperor is far away" bears repeating for both these cases.

[Wraith]

Increased mobility yes, but not to the degree exhibited by the marines - it's why they have the Black Carapace after all.

She somersaults over a car-sized barricade despite being a mature (biologically 55+, discounting juvanat treatments and the like) woman with no specific acrobatic training.

Power Armour is awesome, Astartes issue or not. :smallbiggrin:

[Zorg]

I'm sure the Codex Astartes forbids such things!

Great article from Arcadia Prime on how the Codex is much maligned by the writers, and how it should be a good thing (http://wfarcadia.blogspot.com/2011/11/war-against-doctrine.html), reproduced here for your pleasure:

The Codex Astartes is the holy tome written by Ultramarines Primarch Roboute Guilliman. It defines the organization and tactical doctrine of the Adeptus Astartes and is followed by many, if not a majority, of Space Marine Chapters.

Guilliman is undisputedly one of the greatest military minds in history, rivaling if not surpassing all of the other Primarchs. The Codex Astartes is considered one of Guilliman's most influential works.

Yet there is a schizophrenia in the 40k universe...

The Codex Astartes was a work written by one of the greatest strategic minds in the universe, designed to cover every possible situation . . . and yet, one of the most common ways to portray genius in the 40k universe is to have your protagonist not follow it. Or, in the most extreme cases, actively reject it.

For example, take this guy:

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-3-JHE8HrpJU/Tp7Fam7U5II/AAAAAAAABUc/U1T48xGm6IY/s200/300px-Courage_%2526_Honour_Art.jpg

Captain Uriel Ventris of the Ultramarines. The Ultramarines, Roboute Guilliman's own chapter, are the epitome of the Codex Astartes. Yet what distinguishes Captain Ventris as a protagonist?

Uriel Ventris is a flexible military commander who due to the efforts of his mentor, Captain Idaeus, learned to think outside the confines of the Codex Astartes, the masterpiece of Roboute Guilliman and the manual of war that most Space Marine Chapters base their tactics, strategy and organization upon. [emphasis added]

Article on Uriel Ventris, from the Warhammer 40k Wiki (http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Uriel_Ventris)

Those who follow the Codex, such as Sergeant Learchus in particular and the rest of the Ultramarines in general, are presented as inflexible and unimaginative.

The Codex Astartes (hereafter CA) is portrayed like a strait-jacket, and everyone who follows the "textbook" is always outsmarted by someone who doesn't follow it, and therefore thinks "outside the box". But the CA was written by the most brilliant commander of the Adeptus Astartes. I would have to think that someone doesn't get to be called that unless he does think outside the box. The CA should, by definition, discuss tactics that are outside the box. It should praise initiative, imagination and adaptability.

So who are these "inflexible", "unimaginative" guys who follow the CA?

Space Marine Captains:

Space Marine Captains are masters of the battlefield, able to read its ebb and flow as ancient mariners would judge the changing of the sea. It is not enough for a Captain to simply be a skilled fighter in his own right...he must also have a superhuman grasp of strategy and tactics, as well as the will to employ them in the ever-changing arena of warfare.

Codex: Space Marines, Matthew Ward, 2008, p54.


Chapter Masters:

With the merest glance, a Chapter Master can appraise a warzone, can see every threat and every opportunity presented by the shifting lines of battle and divine how victory can be assured.

Codex: Space Marines, Matthew Ward, 2008, p52


Marneus Calgar:

Since rising to the rank of Chapter Master, Marneus Calgar has employed his flair for tactics and strategy in campaigns without number.

Calgar is a proud man, a trait that has earned him more than a fair share of enemies within the Imperium's internecine politics. Yet he also possesses a shrewd self-awareness that prevents pride turning sour and leading him into arrogance.

Codex: Space Marines, Matthew Ward, 2008, p84.

Commander Dante:

"To his fellow Chapter Masters, Dante is an exemplar of the fearlessness, dedication, and strategic genius that speak to the heart of the Space Marines' never-ending mission." [emphasis added]

Codex: Blood Angels, Matthew Ward, 2009, p53.


Yet a common theme in the 40k universe is that the protagonist is a radical somehow, in that they go against the grain and rebel against the "rigid doctrine of the CA." Those that follow it are invariably portrayed as unimaginative automatons. The problem is with this line of reasoning is that if all the smart people feel that the CA is a rigid doctrine useful for only the unimaginative, then why is the CA held in such high regard? Why was Guilliman considered a genius, if the best he could do was write a book on doctrine that is only useful when your enemy is an idiot?

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-Ytr5xDU_CXQ/Tp3Y79Xhp_I/AAAAAAAABUM/GboQ2zgiFfY/s200/Marneus_Calgar_by_Karl_Kopinski.jpg

Calgar follows the Codex? Idiot.

Guilliman believed in rigid structure and hierarchy and had a firm battle doctrine from which his Legion never wavered. He was in the process of documenting the "correct" tactics and operation of a Space Marine force, tried and tested during his long years of command, and suggested that the young Alpha Legion should adopt this "Codex" behavior. However, this attitude was anathema to Alpharius' belief in initiative and adaptability, and a heated debate over tactics and ideology ensued.

p56, Index Astartes: Alpha Legion, White Dwarf 276.

Granted, the article is written to present the Alpha Legion in a favorable light (in terms of badassery, not necessarily "goodness"). So, to emphasize Alpharius' awesomeness, you have to make Guilliman look like a rigid stick-in-the-mud. I'm sure that in reality Guilliman valued initiative and adaptability too, and put that in the CA. I mean, if he did put values like initiative and adaptability in the CA, there would have to be a Chapter out there that follows the CA and is well known for its initiative and adaptability, wouldn't there?

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-m1mqeprom5c/TqbQB63E-RI/AAAAAAAABWY/KYTH-OV1VCk/s200/Raven_Guard_Tactical_Marine.jpg

Yup.

The distaste that people have against the Codex is really distaste against any sort of doctrine at all. In military fiction, whenever one wants to portray a protagonist as superior, one simply states that whatever action the protagonist takes is superior, and then declares that it goes against established doctrine. Everyone knows that doctrine is something written by a bunch of crusty old generals who haven't seen a battlefield in decades.


But Doctrine is actually a good thing.

Most readers of military history don't understand doctrine and don't want to, because it has no place in the tales of individual soldiers or great military leaders that they are used to. Indeed, doctrine is often seen as an unnecessary encumbrance that loses battles and gets in the way of exercising creative command. This is ironic, in that one of the prevalent goals behind doctrine is the simplification and streamlining of command, precisely so that commanders can fashion appropriate solutions during battle.
. . .
The development of doctrine is the natural imperative of any military trying to rise above the level of being merely an armed mob. It is an essential means by which militaries compensate for the negatives of warfare by building a certain measure of automatic behavior into the organization. Indeed, in the terrible crucible of combat, under the enormous pressures created by mass violence, doctrine is sometimes the only thing that holds forces together and allows them to continue fighting. By setting out a coherent set of tactical goals, units can continue to operate even if the chain of command is disrupted or destroyed.

Shattered Sword: The Untold Story of the Battle of Midway, Parshall and Tully, 2005, p82-83. (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1574889249/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&tag=arcaprim-20&linkCode=as2&camp=217145&creative=399369&creativeASIN=1574889249)


Combat veterans frequently say that one of two things saved their lives in combat: their training, or the guy next to them. Training is doctrine. The Army has an entire command devoted to it: The United States Army Training and Doctrine Command, or TRADOC (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TRADOC). Its whole purpose is to train soldiers and develop doctrine, in order to keep US soldiers from getting killed.

Ultimately having a maverick protagonist who rages against the system and succeeds against overwhelming odds while spitting in the face of established wisdom makes for a good story. In reality, in the chaos of battle, when a commander goes against established doctrine, the result is almost certainly disaster.


In short, the Codex Astartes really is a good book that has some worthwhile stuff in it. But if you decide to go against the Codex Astartes, you should take a long, hard look in the mirror. If you see this:

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-XsoPavR1fKM/TqbS9SyBo2I/AAAAAAAABWg/zLIf2B0Zhps/s200/prospero_burns.jpg

You're probably ok. If you see something else...I'd stick to the Codex.

[Squark]

Great article from Arcadia Prime on how the Codex is much maligned by the writers, and how it should be a good thing (http://wfarcadia.blogspot.com/2011/11/war-against-doctrine.html), reproduced here for your pleasure:

The Codex Astartes is the holy tome written by Ultramarines Primarch Roboute Guilliman. It defines the organization and tactical doctrine of the Adeptus Astartes and is followed by many, if not a majority, of Space Marine Chapters.

Guilliman is undisputedly one of the greatest military minds in history, rivaling if not surpassing all of the other Primarchs. The Codex Astartes is considered one of Guilliman's most influential works.

Yet there is a schizophrenia in the 40k universe...

The Codex Astartes was a work written by one of the greatest strategic minds in the universe, designed to cover every possible situation . . . and yet, one of the most common ways to portray genius in the 40k universe is to have your protagonist not follow it. Or, in the most extreme cases, actively reject it.

For example, take this guy:

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-3-JHE8HrpJU/Tp7Fam7U5II/AAAAAAAABUc/U1T48xGm6IY/s200/300px-Courage_%2526_Honour_Art.jpg

Captain Uriel Ventris of the Ultramarines. The Ultramarines, Roboute Guilliman's own chapter, are the epitome of the Codex Astartes. Yet what distinguishes Captain Ventris as a protagonist?

Uriel Ventris is a flexible military commander who due to the efforts of his mentor, Captain Idaeus, learned to think outside the confines of the Codex Astartes, the masterpiece of Roboute Guilliman and the manual of war that most Space Marine Chapters base their tactics, strategy and organization upon. [emphasis added]

Article on Uriel Ventris, from the Warhammer 40k Wiki (http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Uriel_Ventris)

Those who follow the Codex, such as Sergeant Learchus in particular and the rest of the Ultramarines in general, are presented as inflexible and unimaginative.

The Codex Astartes (hereafter CA) is portrayed like a strait-jacket, and everyone who follows the "textbook" is always outsmarted by someone who doesn't follow it, and therefore thinks "outside the box". But the CA was written by the most brilliant commander of the Adeptus Astartes. I would have to think that someone doesn't get to be called that unless he does think outside the box. The CA should, by definition, discuss tactics that are outside the box. It should praise initiative, imagination and adaptability.

So who are these "inflexible", "unimaginative" guys who follow the CA?

Space Marine Captains:

Space Marine Captains are masters of the battlefield, able to read its ebb and flow as ancient mariners would judge the changing of the sea. It is not enough for a Captain to simply be a skilled fighter in his own right...he must also have a superhuman grasp of strategy and tactics, as well as the will to employ them in the ever-changing arena of warfare.

Codex: Space Marines, Matthew Ward, 2008, p54.


Chapter Masters:

With the merest glance, a Chapter Master can appraise a warzone, can see every threat and every opportunity presented by the shifting lines of battle and divine how victory can be assured.

Codex: Space Marines, Matthew Ward, 2008, p52


Marneus Calgar:

Since rising to the rank of Chapter Master, Marneus Calgar has employed his flair for tactics and strategy in campaigns without number.

Calgar is a proud man, a trait that has earned him more than a fair share of enemies within the Imperium's internecine politics. Yet he also possesses a shrewd self-awareness that prevents pride turning sour and leading him into arrogance.

Codex: Space Marines, Matthew Ward, 2008, p84.

Commander Dante:

"To his fellow Chapter Masters, Dante is an exemplar of the fearlessness, dedication, and strategic genius that speak to the heart of the Space Marines' never-ending mission." [emphasis added]

Codex: Blood Angels, Matthew Ward, 2009, p53.


Yet a common theme in the 40k universe is that the protagonist is a radical somehow, in that they go against the grain and rebel against the "rigid doctrine of the CA." Those that follow it are invariably portrayed as unimaginative automatons. The problem is with this line of reasoning is that if all the smart people feel that the CA is a rigid doctrine useful for only the unimaginative, then why is the CA held in such high regard? Why was Guilliman considered a genius, if the best he could do was write a book on doctrine that is only useful when your enemy is an idiot?

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-Ytr5xDU_CXQ/Tp3Y79Xhp_I/AAAAAAAABUM/GboQ2zgiFfY/s200/Marneus_Calgar_by_Karl_Kopinski.jpg

Calgar follows the Codex? Idiot.

Guilliman believed in rigid structure and hierarchy and had a firm battle doctrine from which his Legion never wavered. He was in the process of documenting the "correct" tactics and operation of a Space Marine force, tried and tested during his long years of command, and suggested that the young Alpha Legion should adopt this "Codex" behavior. However, this attitude was anathema to Alpharius' belief in initiative and adaptability, and a heated debate over tactics and ideology ensued.

p56, Index Astartes: Alpha Legion, White Dwarf 276.

Granted, the article is written to present the Alpha Legion in a favorable light (in terms of badassery, not necessarily "goodness"). So, to emphasize Alpharius' awesomeness, you have to make Guilliman look like a rigid stick-in-the-mud. I'm sure that in reality Guilliman valued initiative and adaptability too, and put that in the CA. I mean, if he did put values like initiative and adaptability in the CA, there would have to be a Chapter out there that follows the CA and is well known for its initiative and adaptability, wouldn't there?

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-m1mqeprom5c/TqbQB63E-RI/AAAAAAAABWY/KYTH-OV1VCk/s200/Raven_Guard_Tactical_Marine.jpg

Yup.

The distaste that people have against the Codex is really distaste against any sort of doctrine at all. In military fiction, whenever one wants to portray a protagonist as superior, one simply states that whatever action the protagonist takes is superior, and then declares that it goes against established doctrine. Everyone knows that doctrine is something written by a bunch of crusty old generals who haven't seen a battlefield in decades.


But Doctrine is actually a good thing.

Most readers of military history don't understand doctrine and don't want to, because it has no place in the tales of individual soldiers or great military leaders that they are used to. Indeed, doctrine is often seen as an unnecessary encumbrance that loses battles and gets in the way of exercising creative command. This is ironic, in that one of the prevalent goals behind doctrine is the simplification and streamlining of command, precisely so that commanders can fashion appropriate solutions during battle.
. . .
The development of doctrine is the natural imperative of any military trying to rise above the level of being merely an armed mob. It is an essential means by which militaries compensate for the negatives of warfare by building a certain measure of automatic behavior into the organization. Indeed, in the terrible crucible of combat, under the enormous pressures created by mass violence, doctrine is sometimes the only thing that holds forces together and allows them to continue fighting. By setting out a coherent set of tactical goals, units can continue to operate even if the chain of command is disrupted or destroyed.

Shattered Sword: The Untold Story of the Battle of Midway, Parshall and Tully, 2005, p82-83. (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1574889249/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&tag=arcaprim-20&linkCode=as2&camp=217145&creative=399369&creativeASIN=1574889249)


Combat veterans frequently say that one of two things saved their lives in combat: their training, or the guy next to them. Training is doctrine. The Army has an entire command devoted to it: The United States Army Training and Doctrine Command, or TRADOC (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TRADOC). Its whole purpose is to train soldiers and develop doctrine, in order to keep US soldiers from getting killed.

Ultimately having a maverick protagonist who rages against the system and succeeds against overwhelming odds while spitting in the face of established wisdom makes for a good story. In reality, in the chaos of battle, when a commander goes against established doctrine, the result is almost certainly disaster.


In short, the Codex Astartes really is a good book that has some worthwhile stuff in it. But if you decide to go against the Codex Astartes, you should take a long, hard look in the mirror. If you see this:

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-XsoPavR1fKM/TqbS9SyBo2I/AAAAAAAABWg/zLIf2B0Zhps/s200/prospero_burns.jpg

You're probably ok. If you see something else...I'd stick to the Codex.

I think it makes a lot of good points, espcially when you consider that, at the end of the day, Guilliman did defeat the Alpharius with... Innovative tactics.

Most of the non-codex chapters, I think, object more to the organization (specifically being broken up into ~1200 man chapters) suggested in the Codex than the tactics it recommends.

Also, another question; How many guardsmen make it to retirement? Now, the knee-jerk reaction here is; Not many. But that then begs the question; Where do the next generation's guardsmen come from? Look at Cadia; Every man or woman who reaches adulthood is drafted, according to the Big Book of Rules; "... Cadia is a fortress, first, last and always. The entire population is destined for a military life. The birth rate and recruitment rate are synonymous..." So, logically, a large number of Cadians have to make it back alive after their tour of duty (or perhaps a significant portion of the Cadian army is constantly on duty on Cadia, considering the fact that it is right outside the eye of terror). And many Hive worlds like Valhalla make most of their tithes in man power; Some of that manpower has to come back to sire the next generation of recruits, doesn't it?

[Bouregard]

Great article from Arcadia Prime on how the Codex is much maligned by the writers, and how it should be a good thing (http://wfarcadia.blogspot.com/2011/11/war-against-doctrine.html), reproduced here for your pleasure:

The Codex Astartes is the holy tome written by Ultramarines Primarch Roboute Guilliman. It defines the organization and tactical doctrine of the Adeptus Astartes and is followed by many, if not a majority, of Space Marine Chapters.

Guilliman is undisputedly one of the greatest military minds in history, rivaling if not surpassing all of the other Primarchs. The Codex Astartes is considered one of Guilliman's most influential works.

Yet there is a schizophrenia in the 40k universe...

The Codex Astartes was a work written by one of the greatest strategic minds in the universe, designed to cover every possible situation . . . and yet, one of the most common ways to portray genius in the 40k universe is to have your protagonist not follow it. Or, in the most extreme cases, actively reject it.

For example, take this guy:

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-3-JHE8HrpJU/Tp7Fam7U5II/AAAAAAAABUc/U1T48xGm6IY/s200/300px-Courage_%2526_Honour_Art.jpg

Captain Uriel Ventris of the Ultramarines. The Ultramarines, Roboute Guilliman's own chapter, are the epitome of the Codex Astartes. Yet what distinguishes Captain Ventris as a protagonist?

Uriel Ventris is a flexible military commander who due to the efforts of his mentor, Captain Idaeus, learned to think outside the confines of the Codex Astartes, the masterpiece of Roboute Guilliman and the manual of war that most Space Marine Chapters base their tactics, strategy and organization upon. [emphasis added]

Article on Uriel Ventris, from the Warhammer 40k Wiki (http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Uriel_Ventris)

Those who follow the Codex, such as Sergeant Learchus in particular and the rest of the Ultramarines in general, are presented as inflexible and unimaginative.

The Codex Astartes (hereafter CA) is portrayed like a strait-jacket, and everyone who follows the "textbook" is always outsmarted by someone who doesn't follow it, and therefore thinks "outside the box". But the CA was written by the most brilliant commander of the Adeptus Astartes. I would have to think that someone doesn't get to be called that unless he does think outside the box. The CA should, by definition, discuss tactics that are outside the box. It should praise initiative, imagination and adaptability.

So who are these "inflexible", "unimaginative" guys who follow the CA?

Space Marine Captains:

Space Marine Captains are masters of the battlefield, able to read its ebb and flow as ancient mariners would judge the changing of the sea. It is not enough for a Captain to simply be a skilled fighter in his own right...he must also have a superhuman grasp of strategy and tactics, as well as the will to employ them in the ever-changing arena of warfare.

Codex: Space Marines, Matthew Ward, 2008, p54.


Chapter Masters:

With the merest glance, a Chapter Master can appraise a warzone, can see every threat and every opportunity presented by the shifting lines of battle and divine how victory can be assured.

Codex: Space Marines, Matthew Ward, 2008, p52


Marneus Calgar:

Since rising to the rank of Chapter Master, Marneus Calgar has employed his flair for tactics and strategy in campaigns without number.

Calgar is a proud man, a trait that has earned him more than a fair share of enemies within the Imperium's internecine politics. Yet he also possesses a shrewd self-awareness that prevents pride turning sour and leading him into arrogance.

Codex: Space Marines, Matthew Ward, 2008, p84.

Commander Dante:

"To his fellow Chapter Masters, Dante is an exemplar of the fearlessness, dedication, and strategic genius that speak to the heart of the Space Marines' never-ending mission." [emphasis added]

Codex: Blood Angels, Matthew Ward, 2009, p53.


Yet a common theme in the 40k universe is that the protagonist is a radical somehow, in that they go against the grain and rebel against the "rigid doctrine of the CA." Those that follow it are invariably portrayed as unimaginative automatons. The problem is with this line of reasoning is that if all the smart people feel that the CA is a rigid doctrine useful for only the unimaginative, then why is the CA held in such high regard? Why was Guilliman considered a genius, if the best he could do was write a book on doctrine that is only useful when your enemy is an idiot?

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-Ytr5xDU_CXQ/Tp3Y79Xhp_I/AAAAAAAABUM/GboQ2zgiFfY/s200/Marneus_Calgar_by_Karl_Kopinski.jpg

Calgar follows the Codex? Idiot.

Guilliman believed in rigid structure and hierarchy and had a firm battle doctrine from which his Legion never wavered. He was in the process of documenting the "correct" tactics and operation of a Space Marine force, tried and tested during his long years of command, and suggested that the young Alpha Legion should adopt this "Codex" behavior. However, this attitude was anathema to Alpharius' belief in initiative and adaptability, and a heated debate over tactics and ideology ensued.

p56, Index Astartes: Alpha Legion, White Dwarf 276.

Granted, the article is written to present the Alpha Legion in a favorable light (in terms of badassery, not necessarily "goodness"). So, to emphasize Alpharius' awesomeness, you have to make Guilliman look like a rigid stick-in-the-mud. I'm sure that in reality Guilliman valued initiative and adaptability too, and put that in the CA. I mean, if he did put values like initiative and adaptability in the CA, there would have to be a Chapter out there that follows the CA and is well known for its initiative and adaptability, wouldn't there?

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-m1mqeprom5c/TqbQB63E-RI/AAAAAAAABWY/KYTH-OV1VCk/s200/Raven_Guard_Tactical_Marine.jpg

Yup.

The distaste that people have against the Codex is really distaste against any sort of doctrine at all. In military fiction, whenever one wants to portray a protagonist as superior, one simply states that whatever action the protagonist takes is superior, and then declares that it goes against established doctrine. Everyone knows that doctrine is something written by a bunch of crusty old generals who haven't seen a battlefield in decades.


But Doctrine is actually a good thing.

Most readers of military history don't understand doctrine and don't want to, because it has no place in the tales of individual soldiers or great military leaders that they are used to. Indeed, doctrine is often seen as an unnecessary encumbrance that loses battles and gets in the way of exercising creative command. This is ironic, in that one of the prevalent goals behind doctrine is the simplification and streamlining of command, precisely so that commanders can fashion appropriate solutions during battle.
. . .
The development of doctrine is the natural imperative of any military trying to rise above the level of being merely an armed mob. It is an essential means by which militaries compensate for the negatives of warfare by building a certain measure of automatic behavior into the organization. Indeed, in the terrible crucible of combat, under the enormous pressures created by mass violence, doctrine is sometimes the only thing that holds forces together and allows them to continue fighting. By setting out a coherent set of tactical goals, units can continue to operate even if the chain of command is disrupted or destroyed.

Shattered Sword: The Untold Story of the Battle of Midway, Parshall and Tully, 2005, p82-83. (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1574889249/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&tag=arcaprim-20&linkCode=as2&camp=217145&creative=399369&creativeASIN=1574889249)


Combat veterans frequently say that one of two things saved their lives in combat: their training, or the guy next to them. Training is doctrine. The Army has an entire command devoted to it: The United States Army Training and Doctrine Command, or TRADOC (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TRADOC). Its whole purpose is to train soldiers and develop doctrine, in order to keep US soldiers from getting killed.

Ultimately having a maverick protagonist who rages against the system and succeeds against overwhelming odds while spitting in the face of established wisdom makes for a good story. In reality, in the chaos of battle, when a commander goes against established doctrine, the result is almost certainly disaster.


In short, the Codex Astartes really is a good book that has some worthwhile stuff in it. But if you decide to go against the Codex Astartes, you should take a long, hard look in the mirror. If you see this:

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-XsoPavR1fKM/TqbS9SyBo2I/AAAAAAAABWg/zLIf2B0Zhps/s200/prospero_burns.jpg

You're probably ok. If you see something else...I'd stick to the Codex.


I think of the Codex Astartes as a book designed to be the "How to be a SPACE MARINE", so as a point to get a new chapter a good start and to help them create their own tactics after they've learned the basics. Also it may prove usefull in furthering understanding between various chapters.

However GRIMDARK happend to it and someone misinterpreted "Hey little guy this is a good way to get started" into "DO AS IT IS WRITTEN OR PERISH!".

[Wraith]

However GRIMDARK happend to it and someone misinterpreted "Hey little guy this is a good way to get started" into "DO AS IT IS WRITTEN OR PERISH!".

I agree with you.
We cannot know what the Codex Astartes says; as a work of fact it simply cannot exist, and as a work of fiction it's a massive undertaking that would require as much genuine research as it would imagination, and GW probably doesn't have the time or inclination to try and publish such a thing.

We can probably guess, however, that it's not a literal "How To" guide that one has to follow blindly.
Your enemy is holed up in a fortress? The Codex won't say "Send 200 men to the south to create a diversion and then hit the north with the rest of your army", because that's just too specific to be of any use when one side alone can number in the MILLIONS of soldiers, but it probably WILL offer generalised advice, such as the sort of thing that Sun Tzu did.

It's not "Send X men to place Y and have them turn left", instead it should be "seek not to trap an opponent with no hope of escape; a cornered enemy is all the more dangerous, instead offer them a way out so that you might take advantage of their flight". See? You can take that rule and apply it to a massive number of situations, both physical and metaphorical.

The skill of the commander is then based on how best to apply the outlines in the Codex and then filling in the small details with their own intelligence and resources, not working your way down a checklist and hoping for the best.

So in many ways, it shouldn't actually be possible to think ourside the Codex - as generalisations, you should be able to find an answer for any solution, properly applied.

Unless what you're doing is deliberately heretical, of course, and even then I'd be surprised if there wasn't some kind of "do whatever it takes to assure victory, the end justifies the means" sort of line in there somewhere that some particularly ballsy commander could try to use as his defence. :smalltongue:

[hamishspence]

The skill of the commander is then based on how best to apply the outlines in the Codex and then filling in the small details with their own intelligence and resources, not working your way down a checklist and hoping for the best.

So in many ways, it shouldn't actually be possible to think ourside the Codex - as generalisations, you should be able to find an answer for any solution, properly applied.
Indeed. From the newest Deathwatch book: Deathwatch: First Founding:
page 69

While the Tyrannic War Veterans tutor others in their knowledge, they seek also to learn more about the Tyranids. It was the Codex Astartes that provided the inspiration, for had not Roboute Guilliman committed his own wisdom and inspiration to its pages so that others might learn from his example? Had not he brought the fearsome weight of his intellect to master a thousand and more styles of warfare?
In McNeill's Rules of Engagement, Guilliman makes it clear that his writings are guidelines- not to be followed inflexibly.

On an older topic- the subject of Devastators and Dreadnoughts in the White Scars being "unfluffy"- First Founding demonstrates that they do exist- they're just rarer:

The White Scars are capable of fielding the full range of Adeptus Astartes resources, though it has been noted that their favoured mission profile often leads to them fielding fewer Devastators than other chapters.

The only major point of divergence is in the fielding of Dreadnoughts. To the White Scars, the thought of spending an eternity in the ceramite sarcophagus of a Dreadnought is a horrifying notion, for they believe that the soul of the departed warrior returns to the steppes to roam there forever. Very few White Scars have ever entered service in a Dreadnought, and only in the direst of circumstances.

[Borgh]

I don't follow that white scars quote. They seem tp believe a dead guy gets to go to the eternal hunting grounds but woudn't becoming a dread be an even greater honor in the spectrum of space marine self-sacrifice? To give up an eternity of roaming for the cold trappings of duty?

It seems weird to me that there as is such a selfish thing as fearing un-death where the SM are usually all about eternal duty.

[hamishspence]

It does mention "the direst of circumstances".

Duty is a major factor to space marines- but it might not be the only factor. They may consider it a "right" to choose not to be interred.

[Brother Oni]

Power Armour is awesome, Astartes issue or not. :smallbiggrin:

Oh, I fully agree but Astartes issue power armour is even better. :smallbiggrin:

I remember a joke set of rules for Space Hulk in a Dragon magazine once, which was basically ballet power armour marines. With the BC, I wouldn't be surprised if they had that level of grace despite their bulk.



Also, another question; How many guardsmen make it to retirement? Now, the knee-jerk reaction here is; Not many.

I think the main point here is, 'how many are removed from active service due to retirement'. The number of guardsmen that are discharged on medical grounds (injury and the like) are probably much higher and these crippled veterans are probably the ones who do most of the propagation.

Traditionally guardsmen casualties are always high, but casualty does not automatically mean fatality, neither does being crippled mean they're discharged (they get posted back in recruiting or training roles where their injuries are not as debilitating).

[LansXero]

How canon is Xenology nowadays? Are the ethereals still advanced eldar-engineered bees?

[hamishspence]

It may be both canon and unreliable- with the speculations of the Inquisitor in it being somewhat iffy due to him being manipulated.

I like Deathwatch: First Founding- but a quote in it has led me to speculate that the Iron Hands might be hereteks- people who engage in tech-heresy- based on an earlier Dark Heresy quote:

These two quotes from FFG books led me to raise the question:

Dark Heresy: Disciples of the Dark Gods- page 44

The Proteus Protocol:
Considered little more than a myth by many but the ultimate goal of an obsessed few, the Proteus Protocol is an ancient and heretical technology for transferring not only the engrammatic knowledge and memory of an organic brain, but also the personality and will, granting in effect complete mental and spiritual immortality in an artifical physical form. Of the few legends that surround this tech, some state that the abominations created are soulless beings with dark desires and alien hungers that can never be satiated. However, these warnings often fail to deter the Protocol's most ardent seekers.

Deathwatch: First Founding- page 9

The greatest of all Iron Fathers was Paullian Blantar of the Kaargul Clan Company. This inspirational figure embodied every one of the Chapter's teachings, from the utter certainty that Ferrus Manus would one day return, to the hatred of all that is of the flesh. Blantar flayed his own body of the flesh he was born into, until eventually, only his mind remained. This was implanted into the towering frame of a mighty Dreadnought, and some say that in so doing his very soul was ex-loaded into the machine's systems so that not a scrap of biological matter remained. Blantar serves as a permanent member of the Chapter Council, having transcended the limits of his flesh and effectively attained immortality.

So- is it plausible that Blantar used the Proteus Protocol to upload knowledge, memory, personality and will, into an artificial form? The "some say" bit raises the possibility that it didn't happen- that there's still flesh in there. Still- interesting possibility.

[deuterio12]

Dawn of War Dark Crusade, and apparently, Deathwatch, the RPG, which I haven't read, but I'll take hamishspence's word on this one. You'll not that the RPGs are considered a good source of 40K information by most of the people in this thread.

Bonus points, though, for you failing to realize that Exterminatus isn't something the Imperium is doing for fun, but because it's neccessary. Habitable planets are rare as hell, and the Imperium isn't going to sacrifice them just because somebody had a bad day. They are serious about this.

Since we're using Dawn of War Material, I may as well point out Gabriel Angelos ordered the Exterminatus of his own home planet after a single short visit, so yes, a bad day for one person is more than enough to a full planet to be wiped out.

Also I point out to the Krieg planet, that saw rebels siege nuclear weapons and turn the planet in a wasteland, and the IoM administration's reaction during the whole process was basically "we don't really care about you".



And again, you claim to love the senseless violence of 40K, but the Imperium exterminating planets is somehow "bad"? Or the Tau are utopian nice guys is cool and ok, while a Space Marine actually talking sense is boring and unneccesary?

I never said the Tau were more entertaining than the IoM. They make an excellent contrast in the 40K millenium, but I wouldn't bother reading about a seting where there's only Taus and a very ocasional rebel like Farsight, while the IoM, even when left to itself, provides plenty of entertaining conflict.

Seriously, leave SM whitout a big enemy for too long, and they'll gladly turn against each other and the other organizations of the IoM whitout fail!




But since we're doing challenges, what about Commander Farsight, who ran away with a sept of Tau? Seems like living in an ideal society wasn't enough for him, and something drove him into exile? Care to explain why somebody that should, as a commander, benefit the most from the caste system of the Tau turn his back on them?

-Necrons did it (actually fits perfectly with the new fluff since wardcrons are bats*** insane and would perfectly do it for the evulz).
-Farsight is simply crazy, simple as that. It's not like half the tau generals decided to turn against the ethereals like a certain other faction's leaders. :smallamused:



To summarize the Tau/IoM debate as i see it:
The tau are 1984-inspired (re: re-education programs ect.) communists (know your place or "disappear") where the IoM are more bad-Colonial age (execute those who don't comply) Nazis (xenopobic and genocidal) with a side order of Paranoia.

Ah, thanks, that's a pretty good summarization! And I think we all know that some evils are unquestionably worst than others.

[Wraith]

- Necrons did it (actually fits perfectly with the new fluff since wardcrons are bats*** insane and would perfectly do it for the evulz).
-Farsight is simply crazy, simple as that. It's not like half the tau generals decided to turn against the ethereals like a certain other faction's leaders. :smallamused:

The third option is that Farsight somehow discovered that his entire race have been turned into Eldar puppets, and has escaped servitude in order to instigate a rebellion of some sort.

How he did that, I don't know, but it explains a few things: Why he's stayed near Tau space instead of disappearing into the distant depths of the next Segmentum, why Shadowsun has made such direct attempts to discredit and 'usurp' him, why his disappearence coincided with the death of his Ethereal (suspicious death, perhaps?)... And so on. :smallsmile:

[Squark]

Ah, thanks, that's a pretty good summarization! And I think we all know that some evils are unquestionably worst than others.

...

Have you actually read 1984? I'm not so sure "Mindrape all those who oppose you" is better than "exterminate all who oppose you".

And given how little we have to go on as far as Gabriel's actions go... It's quite possible what he saw justified the action.

[Talkkno]

The Imperium and the Tau are by nature decentralized to the point, individual planets and such mostly run themselves without outside interference.

[lord_khaine]

Funny enough, all this means that of all the civilisations in the 40K universe, Eldars are most likely the least evil of them if we base this on the gouverments treatment of its own citizens.


The third option is that Farsight somehow discovered that his entire race have been turned into Eldar puppets, and has escaped servitude in order to instigate a rebellion of some sort.

Really?, i didnt think there had been any official contact between craftworld Eldars and Tau.
At least i could find no mentioning of such thing in the current Tau codex, and according to the map they lies in opposite sides of the galaxy.

[Talkkno]

FReally?, i didnt think there had been any official contact between craftworld Eldars and Tau.
At least i could find no mentioning of such thing in the current Tau codex, and according to the map they lies in opposite sides of the galaxy.

Thanks to the webway, the galaxy can easily be crossed within the span of the a week or so. (Rogue Trader)

[GolemsVoice]

-Necrons did it (actually fits perfectly with the new fluff since wardcrons are bats*** insane and would perfectly do it for the evulz).

Except that Farsight was developed before the new Necron fluff.


Also I point out to the Krieg planet, that saw rebels siege nuclear weapons and turn the planet in a wasteland, and the IoM administration's reaction during the whole process was basically "we don't really care about you".

And that was the rebels doing it. And I quote Lexicanum:
Eventually, the Autocrats also began to resent the influence of the Administratum on the planet that they considered to be their own.

So it's not like the Administratum didn't care, it's that the Autocrats tried to throw it out.

And again: the galaxy is FREAKING big, so big that entire planets have to be used just to store and compute data. The administratum are probably doing a good job, given their circumstances. After all, they have to manage a million worlds, each different, while the lords sector, lords sub-sector and planetary governors all do their own thing, while often possessing sizeable military forces. The Adeptus Mechanicus also doesn't like to be bothered, and the Adeptus Astartes do whatever the hell they want.
On top of all this, communication and travel is slow and unreliable. How good do you think modern governments would manage?

[Trixie]

Funny enough, all this means that of all the civilisations in the 40K universe, Eldars are most likely the least evil of them if we base this on the gouverments treatment of its own citizens.

You mean the bit where 100% of the civilian population is handed a lagun and paper armour (by Eldar standards) and sent into meatgrinder so that 'proper' warriors could do their job? :smallconfused:

Or maybe the part where 10 billion sentients dead is deemed acceptable price for a dozen Eldar alive? :smalltongue:

...

Also, regarding Tau: Deatchwatch: Mark of the Xenos states the Ethereal manipulation isn't psychic in nature (Blanks don't work) but it does exist, as one Tau commander memoirs written in first person say once their last Ethereal died, the whole cadre went just as mad as their ancestors 6000 years ago, and the only thing that kept them from shooting themselves was a tiny bit of commander's training, as he fad to force them (and himself) to shoot enemy instead.

[Talkkno]

You mean the bit where 100% of the civilian population is handed a lagun and paper armour (by Eldar standards) and sent into meatgrinder so that 'proper' warriors could do their job? :smallconfused:
.
Err. Gaurdains are all former aspect warriors to one degree or another, and thus are all volunteers at any rate and they only deployed during absolute emergencies, heck no one even is even forced to fight even when their craftworld is being invaded. (Path of the Warrior and Seer)

And it was explicit noted in Path of the Seer if thats the incident you are referring to, was hardly a meatgrinder, they held their defensive positions and retreated when they no longer tenable.



Or maybe the part where 10 billion sentients dead is deemed acceptable price for a dozen Eldar alive? :smalltongue:

Exaggeration, we have also have incidents where Eldhrad laments the fact he has to purge a human world to prevent the Nercons from waking up. imploring the infinity circuit "is their any other way"

We also see in Path of the Seer where the main character hesitates when killing civilians and later those nightmares of their incident plague her later on.

Let's not forget the blurb in the Eldar Codex where it was described an Eldar Pirate lord simply moved the entire human population from a maiden world to nearby inhabitable moon, protecting them until they had the strength to defend themselves.

[Cheesegear]

Indeed. From the newest Deathwatch book: Deathwatch: First Founding


I like Deathwatch: First Founding

Help me out then, please?


I do not currently have Deathwatch; First Founding. If anyone is able to list me the Chapter-specific Wargear found in it (and for what Chapter), that would be extremely great.

Note; I do not want rules. I just want to know what the Wargear is and/or what it looks like. I also assume that being one of the Iron Hands requires you to lose a hand (or two, since you're a Veteran in the Deathwatch). I assume. :smallwink:

Currently I'm putting together my Deathwatch-based Command Squad and Stern-/Wolf Guard models. Nearly all of them have Combi-Meltas (most are weilding one-handed);

The following is tactics, fluff and modelling all together, and since I'm here...
Black Templar; Chain-with-Chainsword (Witchbane), Tabard.

Black Templar the second; Helbrecht. Already has Combi-Melta. Recently released in Finecast. Easy cuts.

Blood Angel; Death Company model, SG backpack (Wings of Sarnoth), and Octavio's Burden [pictures are incredibly helpful]. Probably will only ever get used as a Vanguard Sergeant or attached to Skyclaws. Neither of which I'll probably ever use. But it's a nice model.

Blood Angel the second (Apothecary); Corbulo. Sawed off left arm and Chalice of Vision. Lots of plastic bits glued on .

Dark Angel; Due to Deathwing-ness, I put him in Terminator Armour with Cyclone Missile Launcher (for WG only :smallfrown:). DA stats (+BS/Int) also suggest a Devastator/Backline-directive role. GS Robes and Power Sword/Storm Bolter.

Dark Angel the second; Robes and Sword-Backpack. No picture for Furious Vengeance, which is kind of annoying.

Space Wolf; Use all the best bits from the Grey Hunter box, slap on a Deathwatch pad and you're done. No helmet (+Renown, as well as all the natural abilities SWs can do if they don't wear a helmet).

Ultramarine (Sergeant, seriously, Ultramarines get cranky if they're not in charge...And everyone else gets sick of their complaining about not being in charge); [B]U-pad from Commander box, Leather skirt (Cingulum), the trick with Dire Avenger crests for helmet [Helm of Varthion]. Pointy-finger from Devastators.

Imperial Fist (Techmarine). One of the older metal models (http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat440271a&prodId=prod1140234) with plastic arm-swaps and pins in his hands if I want to swap out his Combi-Melta to a regular Boltgun so he can be a real MoTF. His Power Axe is still around, but I'm unsure what to do with it.

[I felt Iron Hands' Techmarine was too obvious. So I didn't make him the squad Techmarine. Similarly too obvious, the Salamander will not be carrying around the second Heavy Flamer.]

Imperial Fist the second (Lysander/Arjac); Under Codex Marines, Lysander loves Sternguard, so why not paint him up as Deathwatch too, and Arjac is an upgraded Wolf Guard so why not paint up the same model? Shield-arm swap so I can get a Deathwatch pad on there. Lysander's shield is still IF colour scheme [Duty's End].

Storm Warden; Kor'Sarro model (including the fur cape and claymore), Left shoulder pad has been cut off at the elbow. All remaining symbols on the actual Kor'Sarro body (inc. right shoulderpad) have just been painted blue. Head swap for Champion-helmet, since it looks better. Pretty sure the Storm Wardens were based on Kor'Sarro, or maybe the model is just perfect by coincidence?

As everyone can see, I'm trying particularly hard at this. Considering doing an entire battlegroup (inb4 Trixie, I'm fully aware of my previous stance, don't mention it, it was at least a year ago, things change), since Rites of Battle effectively makes Deathwatch like Black Templars. In that there are an awful lot of them (including Chaplains, Terminators and Dreadnoughts), just not all in one spot, although it's possible that a lot of them can show up at once.

Anyway, I need about 10-15 of them, probably more if I start that Kantor army that I've always wanted to do. I've got a couple more ideas (Soul Drinkers, given the amount of Chalices and wings I can see on BA pads...), but I could really, really, really use the stuff in First Founding.

Elsewise, does anybody else have any ideas? Modelling or Chapter-specific aesthetics? I still don't have an idea for a Deathwatch Librarian (pg 114 RoB is Gandalf-ing it up with Stave and Sword, that's pretty cool). I've got Ezekiel in front of me, but his left shoulder pad is metal and like pretty hardcast (I don't know the word I'm looking for?) into the mould and would be a PitA to cut off (and I would probably ruin the model even if I did) so he's out. Feel free to post ideas to me PM.
I don't know, it's a complicated issue, being fluff, tactics and modelling all at the same time, so I'd hate to slow down any threads. Hopefully no-one will mind if you do post in-thread anyway.

[hamishspence]

Chapter specific wargear:

Weapons
Angelus Bolter (Blood Angels) (see Codex Blood Angels for appearance
Gilded Boltgun (Ultramarines)- not depicted but described as "dazzling"
Hellfire Flamer (Deathwatch) not shown
"Raven Pattern" Shotgun (Raven Guard)- has a "long black muzzle" attached reducing flash and sound
Surtur's Breath (Salamanders) heavier, more bulky flamer
Artificer Omnissian Axe (Deathwatch) not shown
Chogoris Lightning Blade (White Scars)- "dazzling silver power sword with a jagged blade crafted in the shape of a lightning bolt"
Cruciform of the Crusade (Deathwatch) eight foot stone cross, two handed, used like a thunder hammer- not a powerfield weapon
Duelling Tulwar (White Scars) "short, curved blade" - not a powerfield weapon
Glaive Encarmine (see Codex Blood Angels for appearance)
Honour Blades (Ultramarines) see Codex Space Marines honour guard squad
The Needle of Truth (Dark Angels) "finely crafted power sword"
Power Lance (White Scars) - see depictions of White Scars bikers
The Righteous Fist (Deathwatch) - "a massive and pitted powerfist"
Rune Staff (Space Wolves) - see Space Wolves codex
The Shadow in the Sky (Raven Guard) "A long, curved power sword like the talon of a bird"
Shard of Bekrin (Deathwatch) "broken power sword" "Remarkably, the weapon still hums with power though half its length is gone"

Armour
Great Wolf Pelt (Space Wolves) "large even for a Space Marine, trailing behind them and hanging over their armour like a tide of fur"
Salamanders Mantle (Salamanders) "scaled cloak"
Mantle of the Fallen Wolf (Space Wolves) a wolf pelt passed from a previous owner who died defeating a greater daemon

Wargear
Artificer Bionics (Iron Hands) not shown
Astartes Omni-Tool (Deathwatch) not shown
Blood Chalice (Blood Angels) see codex Blood Angels for appearance
Blood of Heroes (Blood Angels) not shown
Death Mask (Blood Angels) see codex Blood Angels for appearance
Digital Housing (Iron Hands) digital weapon in cybernetic limb, can be laser, melta or flamer
Exsanguinator (Blood Angels) see codex Blood Angels for appearance
First Company Relic (Ultramarines) "small, rent piece of armour"
The Glorious Standard (Deathwatch) "a complex pattern of images and heraldry, from the Horus Heresy through the first clashes with the Tyranids to their current exploits, such as supporting the Achillus Crusade"
The Heart of Iron (Iron Hands) "worn under armour, it looks not unlike a mechanical spider wrapped around a Battle Brother's chest"
Pain Glove (Imperial Fists) not shown
Promethean's Blessing (Salamanders) "inverse heat sink, which uses the excess power generated by the motor of a chain blade of the charge of a power weapon to project flame along its edge"
Recoil Baffling (Iron Hands) "compensation servos and suspensor cushions" for semi-auto and full auto weapons
The Magnir Runes (Space Wolves) "small stones inscribed with the signature runes of a Space Wolf Rune Priest"
Standard of Fortitude (Dark Angels) "emblazoned with the icons of the chapter and stained with the blood of heroes"
Suppression Stabiliser (Deathwatch) (heavy bolter and boltgun upgrade - not shown)
Totem of Subetai (White Scars) "long staff adorned with a beast skull and a knot of coarse hair"
Weapon Charm (Dark Angels) "sometimes adorn their weapons with fetishes, birth feathers and charms"
Winged Jump Pack (Blood Angels) see Codex Blood Angels for appearance
Wings of the Raven (Raven Guard)- "With long, curved air intakes and oversized thrusters, this jet-black artifact is significantly more powerful than a standard jump pack"

Chapter Trappings
Chieftain Trophy Rack (White Scars)
Icon of the Iron Cage (Imperial Fists) talisman worn on power armour to remind them of the strength and unity they showed
Wolf Tooth Necklace (Space Wolves) -cord with several teeth and a couple of stones with runes, all have holes in and rings through the holes holding them to the cord

EDIT:
and yes- the Iron Hands do lose one hand - replace left hand with Exceptional craftsmanship bionic hand.

[Wraith]

Really?, i didnt think there had been any official contact between craftworld Eldars and Tau.
At least i could find no mentioning of such thing in the current Tau codex,

To be honest, there is virtually nothing more to the story than "Farsight's Ethereal died, he carried on fighting the Orks and never came back".
At some point it was decided by the Aun'va that he had founded his own fortified colonies out in the Damocles Gulf, but since he had cut off communication with the Empire before that happened it's not explained how anyone knows this.

As far as the Players are concerned, any of the above theories could be true or none of them.
We don't know who Farsight has been in contact with - or even if, historically, he's even alive. Even that the Dawnblade is an Eldar weapon is just conjecture; all the Codex says is that it was found 'on a dead world', in the 'pre-human' ruins of an 'unknown' enemy (which suggests Necron as much as it does Eldar). :smallsmile:


and according to the map they lies in opposite sides of the galaxy.

I'll take your word for that one - last I knew, Iyanden was right on Tau's Galactic doorstep, and Alaitoc wasn't incredibly far away from that. :smallsmile:

[Eldan]

Yeah. While the old Eldar homeworlds are pretty much opposite the Tau Empire, maps of the various paths taken by the craftworlds show that they have really been all over.

Like on this one:
http://images.wikia.com/warhammer40k/images/4/4b/Galactic_Craftworld_Locations.jpg

Where Iyanden flies straight through Tau space.

[LansXero]

I think he may have confused it with the Tau's alleged "father" species, those weird bees from which the eldar "made" the ethereals, and how theyve been kept purposefully separate from the Tau to avoid them finding out about their origins. It does beg the question of what purpose could the Tau serve for the Eldar :S

[Eldan]

No idea. I mean, I know what I would do, if I were them: use the mind control glands to make the Tau worship the Eldar. But that doesn't seem to be the plan.

Given their power of precognition, I suppose they are building up the Tau to hold off some future threat to the Galaxy. Using them to counter chaos or necrons, most likely. (Both theories have some likelihood to them: Tau are relatively resistant to corruption, making them rather useful against chaos. And there is a theory floating around that they are actually re-built Necrontyr, sharing the lack of warp signature and the short lifespan on a brutal world).

[Eldan]

No idea. I mean, I know what I would do, if I were them: use the mind control glands to make the Tau worship the Eldar. But that doesn't seem to be the plan.

Given their power of precognition, I suppose they are building up the Tau to hold off some future threat to the Galaxy. Using them to counter chaos or necrons, most likely. (Both theories have some likelihood to them: Tau are relatively resistant to corruption, making them rather useful against chaos. And there is a theory floating around that they are actually re-built Necrontyr, sharing the lack of warp signature and the short lifespan on a brutal world).

[deuterio12]

The third option is that Farsight somehow discovered that his entire race have been turned into Eldar puppets, and has escaped servitude in order to instigate a rebellion of some sort.


That would be the Eldar's fault, not the Tau.




Have you actually read 1984? I'm not so sure "Mindrape all those who oppose you" is better than "exterminate all who oppose you".

{{scrubbed}}



And given how little we have to go on as far as Gabriel's actions go... It's quite possible what he saw justified the action.

Irrelevant. The main point is that the IoM is a place where an important dude can phone the Exterminatus department, point them to a planet of their own side, and the planet will get blown up whitout many questions asked. Billions of lifes wasted because a single person tought them unworthy to live.



Except that Farsight was developed before the new Necron fluff.

It also fits with the old fluff. The Deceiver was around by those times. Seems like people never bothered to actually read the old necron codex before praising the new one.:smallwink:



And that was the rebels doing it. And I quote Lexicanum:

No, please, let me quote it first:

Much of Krieg quickly fell to the rebels except for Hive Ferrograd which came under the command of the now infamous Colonel Jurten of the Krieg 83rd Imperial Guard. Under strict orders to not let Krieg fall but with the promise that no fleet on the scale that was needed to invade a planet was available, Jurten decided that Krieg would either belong to the Emperor or to no one.

Ladies and gentlemens, here's your typical IG colonel. Who cares about killing billions of your own people as long as you please the rotting corpse in the other side of the galaxy?



So it's not like the Administratum didn't care, it's that the Autocrats tried to throw it out.

Considering the Administratum teaches their officers to butcher their own citizens at every turn, they didn't have much of a choice. Jurten would find an excuse for blowing his own planet up sooner or later thanks to his IoM teachings.



And again: the galaxy is FREAKING big, so big that entire planets have to be used just to store and compute data. The administratum are probably doing a good job, given their circumstances. After all, they have to manage a million worlds, each different, while the lords sector, lords sub-sector and planetary governors all do their own thing, while often possessing sizeable military forces. The Adeptus Mechanicus also doesn't like to be bothered, and the Adeptus Astartes do whatever the hell they want.

So remind me, who developed the system where the departments that are suposed to offer suport answer to no one? Managing a million worlds may be hard, but managing a thousand chapters and Mars should be relatively simple. That's Adnministratum incopetence at its finest, pure and simple.

This is, what's the point of sacrificing hundreds of childrens for each SM if they can't even be properly pointed to the right direction?



On top of all this, communication and travel is slow and unreliable. How good do you think modern governments would manage?

Clearly they should adopt tau tech. Slower, but 100% warp-free!:smallbiggrin:

Or they could do what modern governments do. Open up contests to develop new solutions, instead of 10.000 year old decay only interrupted by finding even older tech prints.



Given their power of precognition, I suppose they are building up the Tau to hold off some future threat to the Galaxy. Using them to counter chaos or necrons, most likely. (Both theories have some likelihood to them: Tau are relatively resistant to corruption, making them rather useful against chaos. And there is a theory floating around that they are actually re-built Necrontyr, sharing the lack of warp signature and the short lifespan on a brutal world).

I highly doubt that because nothing in the eldar fluff sugest they may be trying to manipulate the tau. Meanwhile, it would be about time some race evolved to be naturally resistant to chaos. Orks seem to actually be quite corruption-resistant, but they aren't exactly very diplomatic

[hamishspence]

Irrelevant. The main point is that the IoM is a place where an important dude can phone the Exterminatus department, point them to a planet of their own side, and the planet will get blown up whitout many questions asked. Billions of lifes wasted because a single person tought them unworthy to live.

Questions are always asked afterward. And if the grounds were not sufficient, the person responsible is likely to be declared Excommunicate Traitoris and a price put on their head.

In fact, one of the most respected of Inquisitors, (Kryptmaan) was excommunicated precisely because he was destroying planets with what the Inquisition considered insufficient justification.

[Squark]

Have you actually readed about WW II? Becauze the bad guys in there weren't just "exterminate all who oppose you". The bad guys in there would exterminate whoever they tought wasn't fit to live, regardless of them being helping or not, and by the end of the war were sending children against tanks while feeding cyanid pills to their own families. That's the scale of horror the IoM deals on. At least in 1984 you get to survive if you play your part.
Yeah. I know what the Nazis (and certain parts of Japan) did. The Party is just as evil, it's just smarter about going about it. They don't have some sort of stupid racial dogma inhibiting them from taking advantage of useful human beings. Why throw millions into a deathcamp when you can mindrape them into soldiers? Why use child soldiers when you can raise them to be fanatically loyal to you (Because they'll be much more effective soldiers in their teens, after all)? Why throw a dissenter into a deathcamp when you can break his mind so completely he'll denounce his former beliefs (and you can always assassinate him a few years later once everyone's forgotten about them)?

The Party doesn't pull stuff the Nazis did not because they're better, but because they don't need to. They still throw away people they don't need, they just extract every last bit of usefulness out of them first.

Irrelevant. The main point is that the IoM is a place where an important dude can phone the Exterminatus department, point them to a planet of their own side, and the planet will get blown up whitout many questions asked. Billions of lifes wasted because a single person tought them unworthy to live.
Considering what a demon world is like, sometimes you need to make those tough calls. Morally correct? No. But as far as the WH40K universe goes, the end justifies the means, and preventing the creation of a demon world justifies the sacrifice of a planet in the long run, from a purely rational point of view (A planet going Demon world is going to kill all those people anyway... Actually, it may not. But let me assure you, they'll wish it had. And then the demons start affecting nearby worlds...)

*snipped for lack of comment*

No, please, let me quote it first:

Much of Krieg quickly fell to the rebels except for Hive Ferrograd which came under the command of the now infamous Colonel Jurten of the Krieg 83rd Imperial Guard. Under strict orders to not let Krieg fall but with the promise that no fleet on the scale that was needed to invade a planet was available, Jurten decided that Krieg would either belong to the Emperor or to no one.

Ladies and gentlemens, here's your typical IG colonel. Who cares about killing billions of your own people as long as you please the rotting corpse in the other side of the galaxy?

Considering the Administratum teaches their officers to butcher their own citizens at every turn, they didn't have much of a choice. Jurten would find an excuse for blowing his own planet up sooner or later thanks to his IoM teachings.
And you know he's typical how, exactly?

So remind me, who developed the system where the departments that are suposed to offer suport answer to no one? Managing a million worlds may be hard, but managing a thousand chapters and Mars should be relatively simple. That's Adnministratum incopetence at its finest, pure and simple.
The Ultramarine's primarch. Why? Because of what happened when the entire Imperium was interconnected. A couple of bad apples were able to corrupt half the Imperial military, and the galaxy nearly ended up with a 5th Chaos God (which would have been the end of all hope for life everywhere, let me assure you)

This is, what's the point of sacrificing hundreds of childrens for each SM if they can't even be properly pointed to the right direction? I have no idea where you're going with that one

Clearly they should adopt tau tech. Slower, but 100% warp-free!:smallbiggrin:
Not practical. The Tau, as we've said, are small potatoes. They have a small piece of the galaxy to run. The Imperium cannot afford the delays the Tau's technology would cause at the scale it operates
Or they could do what modern governments do. Open up contests to develop new solutions, instead of 10.000 year old decay only interrupted by finding even older tech prints.
The technology humanity had during the Dark Age was rivaled only by that possessed by the Eldar and the Necrons. Finding a complete STC database would allow the imperium to conquer the entire galaxy. Finding it (both so you have access to this ubertech, and other people don't) Is pretty darn important.

And humanity doesn't have the luxary of being warp-resistant; You do that sort of stuff, you're going to get a lot of designs that look great, but end up doing something horrible like summoning a demon. Or worse.

I highly doubt that because nothing in the eldar fluff sugest they may be trying to manipulate the tau. Meanwhile, it would be about time some race evolved to be naturally resistant to chaos. Orks seem to actually be quite corruption-resistant, but they aren't exactly very diplomatic
Partially correct. Corrupted Orks do exist, but all possession means to them is they can now argue with themselves. And, if you remember the Necron codex, the Orks are not a naturally evolved species (The Old Ones had a big hand in their creation)

My comments in bold.

[lord_khaine]

I think he may have confused it with the Tau's alleged "father" species, those weird bees from which the eldar "made" the ethereals, and how theyve been kept purposefully separate from the Tau to avoid them finding out about their origins. It does beg the question of what purpose could the Tau serve for the Eldar :S

Isnt this moving into the territory of epilectic tree's now?
Are there even any actualy evidence on the tau being made by anybody?

[Borgh]

Minor point: As far as I can find, the new necron codex has no connection to the Krork anymore.

[Squark]

Minor point: As far as I can find, the new necron codex has no connection to the Krork anymore.

I could be wrong, of course, but I'm would think that fluff from older codexes is still canon unless it is contradicted by newer ones.

[hamishspence]

That is the general principle followed by most of the fandom.

I've seen it argued that while the Sensei from the 1e Realms of Chaos books are portrayed as only a very deluded Tzeentch cult in 3e- that bit was an Inquisitor's assessment- so may not be entirely reliable.

[Eldan]

By that standard, most of the fluff is someone's assessment and not very reliable, though.

Which actually, it is. Nevermind.

[GolemsVoice]

Have you actually readed about WW II? Becauze the bad guys in there weren't just "exterminate all who oppose you". The bad guys in there would exterminate whoever they tought wasn't fit to live, regardless of them being helping or not, and by the end of the war were sending children against tanks while feeding cyanid pills to their own families. That's the scale of horror the IoM deals on. At least in 1984 you get to survive if you play your part.


Without getting into politics, what the Nazis did is unspeakably evil because they had exactly no reason for doing this (however much they thought they HAD). The Imperium HAS a reason. In a real world situation, hostages during a bank robbery might not be more inclined to rob banks themselves. But in the world of W40K, if Chaos touches you, no matter how little you want it, you're potentially spoiled. Now 9 of 10 people might not be, but the 10th might be, and he'll in turn doom hundred other lives. That's the Imperium for you. They aren't how they are because they flipped a coin that either had utopian democracy or oppressive regime on it. Sure, a lot of innocents get caught in such purges, but consider this, for example: one untrained, undetected psyker can potentially doom a whole world, not only destroying it, but also handing it to Chaos on a silver plate.


Much of Krieg quickly fell to the rebels except for Hive Ferrograd which came under the command of the now infamous Colonel Jurten of the Krieg 83rd Imperial Guard. Under strict orders to not let Krieg fall but with the promise that no fleet on the scale that was needed to invade a planet was available, Jurten decided that Krieg would either belong to the Emperor or to no one.
Except that the Administratum has exactly nothing to do with training officers. That's the Imperial Guard. And in his way, Jurten isn't that different to several real world militaries on both sides of the Iron Curtain, who would have torn the world asunder just for the sake of being the last one standing. Imperial culture and religion certainly helped shape Jurten's decision, but they are far from the main reasons. The Emperor was just Jurten's reason, in another universe, it might be honor, country, or the Floraxian way. Or, perhaps, the Great Good?



So remind me, who developed the system where the departments that are suposed to offer suport answer to no one? Managing a million worlds may be hard, but managing a thousand chapters and Mars should be relatively simple. That's Adnministratum incopetence at its finest, pure and simple.

Again, real world examples aplenty, and as far as I know, the Emperor and the Administratum are entirely fictional. And would YOU tell the superhumans with the best guns in the Imperium, who are known for their incredible pride, that they are now supposed to listen to you? Not even the Ultramarins, one of the most reasonably chapters, would go along with this. Same goes for the Priesthood of Mars. You don't tell the guys who are responsible for all the tech and science something they won't agree with. That's not Adminsitratum incompetence (I bet they would LOVE to control the SM and AM) but a whole mess of ye olde human emotions backed by the power to enforce them.

[Wraith]

Isnt this moving into the territory of epilectic tree's now?
Are there even any actualy evidence on the tau being made by anybody?

Oh, definitely. Like I said, even Codex Tau barely says anything at all about where the Dawnblade came from, the idea that it is Eldar is purely conjecture based on what came in Xenology.

Xenology is, as far as I know, the only canon source where it is strongly implied that Ethereals are beings who are heavily genetically modified, and states directly that the jewel implanted in their forehead is "significantly similar" to an Eldar Soulstone.
That, and Codex: Tau's story about how the Ethereals came out of nowhere and united the primitive planet Tau being somewhat fitting for a "taken over by technologically superior enemy infiltrators", is pretty much all we have. :smalltongue:

It is, however, a book that predates 5th Edition and a number of 4th Edition Codices - there's a strong argument that it probably isn't entirely canon anymore. And even if it is, like you say, it creates a lot more new questions than it ever answered :smalltongue:


That would be the Eldar's fault, not the Tau.

"The Tau are really nice people, apart from someone spending the last 6,000 years moulding them into sociopathic communist-esque Totalierat". Well, that's alright then. :smallamused:

The Imperium would probably be a pretty nice place, without Ork and Chaos to worry about for the last 10,000 years. Whose fault it is has no baring on how good or bad a faction currently is.

[Talkkno]

The problem is, that the Tau are even more decenterlized then the Imperium is, their's no reason to believe that the action of one sept somehow makes a systematic thing, or even orders from the center.

Given the decenterlized nature, it is far from totalitarian, since due to slow communication orders from the center take a long time to get there and then be implemented.

[Squark]

The problem is, that the Tau are even more decenterlized then the Imperium is, their's no reason to believe that the action of one sept somehow makes a systematic thing, or even orders from the center.

Given the decenterlized nature, it is far from totalitarian, since due to slow communication orders from the center take a long time to get there and then be implemented.

Totalitarian/=/Large state. Totalitarianism is at it's most effective really, at a small level, where a single person can reasonably control the entire operation (or, in the Tau's case, a couple dozen-couple hundred Ethreals on a planet). So what the Tau really are is a bunch of allied totalitarian realms with a very similar culture.

[Talkkno]

Totalitarian/=/Large state. Totalitarianism is at it's most effective really, at a small level, where a single person can reasonably control the entire operation (or, in the Tau's case, a couple dozen-couple hundred Ethreals on a planet). So what the Tau really are is a bunch of allied totalitarian realms with a very similar culture.
The problem is that the Tau don't exactly agree with each other100% of the time (See Kill-Team for a really prominent example of Tau disagreement resvoled in rather interesting manner :smallwink:) on everything, so there's no reason to believe those incidents mentioned before are a systematic thing going on, to suggest otherwise is to say their is a improbable amount of coordination going on between septs that are only loosely beholden to each other and the center.

It is far more likely to be true to say those are isolated to a single sept and are blown out of proportion, as noted in Black Crusade, the books are written from the Imperium POV, and thus have in interest in making their enemies look bad, hardly the most objective source.

EDIT: I also find applying human standards of behavior to aliens who think completely different way from humans to kind of disingenuous.

[Squark]

The problem is that the Tau don't exactly agree with each other100% of the time (See Kill-Team for a really prominent example of Tau disagreement resvoled in rather interesting manner :smallwink:) on everything, so there's no reason to believe those incidents mentioned before are a systematic thing going on, to suggest otherwise is to say their is a improbable amount of coordination going on between septs that are only loosely beholden to each other and the center.

It is far more likely to be true to say those are isolated to a single sept and are blown out of proportion, as noted in Black Crusade, the books are written from the Imperium POV, and thus have in interest in making their enemies look bad, hardly the most objective source.

EDIT: I also find applying human standards of behavior to aliens who think completely different way from humans to kind of disingenuous.

True. I don't claim to be an expert on the Tau (In fact, I claim to be the opposite :smalltongue: ) I was just pointing out that just because the Tau don't have a centralized government doesn't mean their citizenry are not living in a totalitarian society.

Also, aliens with non-human thought patterns are kind of an ambiguous territory. We won't really know how to deal with them until we find some and interact with them a good bit (If we find any at all). One reason they show up in Science Fiction so much; People wonder what they'd be like.

[Cheesegear]

Chapter specific wargear:

Thank you so very, very mcuh. You've made my day.

Spoi-tastic.

Gilded Boltgun (Ultramarines)- not depicted but described as "dazzling"


The Bolter in the Command Squad box? Chuck some Sterngun mods to it (Scope, ammo cartridge from Storm Bolters) and done.


[I]"Raven Pattern" Shotgun (Raven Guard)- has a "long black muzzle" attached reducing flash and sound
The Shadow in the Sky (Raven Guard) "A long, curved power sword like the talon of a bird"

Shotgun? :smallsigh: Maybe I'll just cut up a Sniper Rifle to make a Stalker Plattern (see Telion) Sterngun.

I assume I'm to make the Raven Guard model out of Mk5/6 armour?


Surtur's Breath (Salamanders) heavier, more bulky flamer
Salamanders Mantle (Salamanders) "scaled cloak"
Promethean's Blessing (Salamanders) "inverse heat sink, which uses the excess power generated by the motor of a chain blade of the charge of a power weapon to project flame along its edge"

...And here I was not wanting to be 'obvious' by giving the Salamander a Flamer/Meltagun.
Salamander's Mantle I've done a couple of times. Using Dark Elf Corsairs. The conversion's on the 'net.
A sword...On fire. I didn't think the 40K-verse would go for something that tacky. Especially not on the Imperial side. Ah well, if it's a canon thing...

I'll probably make a Mk.4 Marine, or possibly use one of the Legion of the Damned with the fire all over their armour.


Chogoris Lightning Blade (White Scars)- "dazzling silver power sword with a jagged blade crafted in the shape of a lightning bolt"
Duelling Tulwar (White Scars) "short, curved blade" - not a powerfield weapon
Power Lance (White Scars) - see depictions of White Scars bikers
Chieftain Trophy Rack (White Scars)

Sounds like the sword in the Grey Knights trilogy. I was going to do one of those anyway.
Easy.
Power Lance? Does it say anything about how you have to be mounted to use it? Ah well, I need to make a Kor'Sarro on Bike model anyway, and what better way than to have him be a White Scar anyway.
...I'll check my Dark Eldar bits, see if I've got anything there.


Digital Housing (Iron Hands) digital weapon in cybernetic limb, can be laser, melta or flamer
Recoil Baffling (Iron Hands) "compensation servos and suspensor cushions" for semi-auto and full auto weapons

Cool. Is it clip-size 1 like a Combi-Weapon? Might use one of the Sanguinary Guard guns to represent it.
I knew it. The Iron Hand is the Heavy, not the Engineer. :smallamused:


Rune Staff (Space Wolves) - see Space Wolves codex
The Magnir Runes (Space Wolves) "small stones inscribed with the signature runes of a Space Wolf Rune Priest"
Totem of Subetai (White Scars) "long staff adorned with a beast skull and a knot of coarse hair"

Psykers only, I assume?

[Eldan]

I'm sorry but this:


I didn't think the 40K-verse would go for something that tacky. Especially not on the Imperial side. Ah well, if it's a canon thing...

Made me laugh. When has the Empire ever not been totally over the top? The best example I can think of right now is the Sisters' Church Organ Tank.

[Trixie]

Made me laugh. When has the Empire ever not been totally over the top? The best example I can think of right now is the Sisters' Church Organ Tank.

Wouldn't 'walking Cathedral' be a better example? :P

Though, recent art seems to move away from that dumbness...

[Eldan]

That too. And stained glass windows in space.

[Cheesegear]

Made me laugh. When has the Empire ever not been totally over the top?

I'm just thinking about the dev team making stuff up, poring over all the Salamanders' stuff they can find going all the way back to 3rd (seriously, FFG have done their research in a lot of areas, some stuff is lifted directly out of old Codecies not even in print anymore), looking at models (He'Stan) and thinking up cool Salamander wargear.

Dev 1; Well, we have to have a super-flamer.
Dev 2; Can't forget Salamander's Mantle. Wolves get their pelts, Salamanders have their cool coats.
Dev 1; What else can we have? He'Stan has a cool spear. Remember Xavier? He had a Hammer, Salamanders love blacksmithing and He'Stan makes Hammers even better. We haven't done a relic hammer yet, so wouldn't it be cool to-
Dev 2; Wait. Whoawhoawhoa. I've got it. A sword. That's on fire!
Dev 1; BRILLIANT!

[GolemsVoice]

But you've got to admit, it fits both the Salamanders theme and the general "purge with fire" vibe that's going on in the Imperium.

[Borgh]

It would be more salamander-like to have their special weapon be the pimped up hammer they used during their smiting apprenticeship. Swords are cornered by the more knight-like chapters.

[LansXero]

From the description it sounds more like a sword-shaped flamethrower with a chainsword inside than an actual sword.

[Haruspex_Pariah]

From the description it sounds more like a sword-shaped flamethrower with a chainsword inside than an actual sword.

Really? To me it reads more like a flame generator attached to a chain weapon or a power weapon.

On a different note, does anyone know if Tyranid Lictors are launched into space to recon planets? This was how it happened in one old comic (1990s) but Lexicanum only mentions their role as battlefield scouts.

[hamishspence]

Replies to Cheesegear:

I assume I'm to make the Raven Guard model out of Mk5/6 armour?
Not strictly required, but it may fit.

A sword...On fire. I didn't think the 40K-verse would go for something that tacky. Especially not on the Imperial side. Ah well, if it's a canon thing...
It's basically a distraction- but a chance of setting the enemy on fire, as per the Flame special ability, can be handy.

Power Lance? Does it say anything about how you have to be mounted to use it? Ah well, I need to make a Kor'Sarro on Bike model anyway, and what better way than to have him be a White Scar anyway.
No- but its better when mounted- extra damage.

Cool. Is it clip-size 1 like a Combi-Weapon? Might use one of the Sanguinary Guard guns to represent it.
It's exactly as the Digital Weapon in Deathwatch (page 153)


Psykers only, I assume?
Yes.

[Bavarian itP]

I liked to imagine a powerfist as tool that is used to either pimp slap people or high five them.

Why do it with a power fist when you can do it with Dreadnought CCWs:
"Klank" (http://tsoalr.com/?p=283)

[deuterio12]

Without getting into politics, what the Nazis did is unspeakably evil because they had exactly no reason for doing this (however much they thought they HAD). The Imperium HAS a reason. In a real world situation, hostages during a bank robbery might not be more inclined to rob banks themselves. But in the world of W40K, if Chaos touches you, no matter how little you want it, you're potentially spoiled. Now 9 of 10 people might not be, but the 10th might be, and he'll in turn doom hundred other lives. That's the Imperium for you. They aren't how they are because they flipped a coin that either had utopian democracy or oppressive regime on it. Sure, a lot of innocents get caught in such purges, but consider this, for example: one untrained, undetected psyker can potentially doom a whole world, not only destroying it, but also handing it to Chaos on a silver plate.

Then the Imperium leadership are a bunch of hypocrites, because Inquisitors and Grey Knights mess directly with the foulest chaos stuff all the time and get away with it.

I don't care how they do it, the IoM clearly have safe measures against chaos, yet they'll rather burn billions of innocents rather than apply whatever methods they use to keep inquisitors and grey knights safe.

And again, the primarchs were stolen and half-corrupted by chaos, and the Emperor goes and puts them on the top possible leadership positions. That's Stupid Evil for you.



Except that the Administratum has exactly nothing to do with training officers. That's the Imperial Guard. And in his way, Jurten isn't that different to several real world militaries on both sides of the Iron Curtain, who would have torn the world asunder just for the sake of being the last one standing.

Yet, they didn't, and that's the key diference. Most people probably had evil toughts now and then. It's the ones that actually give in to their evil toughts that we need to be worried about.



Imperial culture and religion certainly helped shape Jurten's decision, but they are far from the main reasons. The Emperor was just Jurten's reason, in another universe, it might be honor, country, or the Floraxian way. Or, perhaps, the Great Good?

Nice try, but Jurten was pretty explicit in showing his decision was solely FOR THE EMPEROR!:smallamused:



Again, real world examples aplenty,

By all means, point me to any elite militaries with the top tech that only answer to themselves, or the massive research facilities that don't need to comply with the national interests and standards.



and as far as I know, the Emperor and the Administratum are entirely fictional. And would YOU tell the superhumans with the best guns in the Imperium, who are known for their incredible pride, that they are now supposed to listen to you?

Who's supplying them the best guns and armor and know-how?
Whose planets are they geting their raw resources and recruits again?
Who keeps the corpse-candle in Terra that's vital for their navigation running?
Who supplies the IG waves to do the brunt of the fighting so the SM can then strike the main points?

Every chapter needs massive logistics to be maintained. Now I know they usually have their own forges yada yada, but they only exist because the IoM invested massive resources in the creation of each chapter. Those forges and battle barges didn't spawn out of pure faith.



Not even the Ultramarins, one of the most reasonably chapters, would go along with this. Same goes for the Priesthood of Mars. You don't tell the guys who are responsible for all the tech and science something they won't agree with.

Actually, we do all the time. Large projects needs obscene amounts of money/resources. Said obscene amounts of money/resources need to come from big institutions. And chances they'll ask you for things you don't like are pretty high, and you can't really bite the hand that feeds you. Unless you're in 40K, that runs in the rule of GRIMDARKNESS.



The Imperium would probably be a pretty nice place, without Ork and Chaos to worry about for the last 10,000 years.


Again, the IoM has plenty of civil wars/catastrophes whitout the need of chaos and orks buting in. From officers like Jurgen to corrupt governors and power struggles, things could actualy turn much worst in the IoM if there's not a big common enemy to unite against.

[GolemsVoice]

Then the Imperium leadership are a bunch of hypocrites, because Inquisitors and Grey Knights mess directly with the foulest chaos stuff all the time and get away with it.

I don't care how they do it, the IoM clearly have safe measures against chaos, yet they'll rather burn billions of innocents rather than apply whatever methods they use to keep inquisitors and grey knights safe.

That's like saying because we have bomb technicians, everybody can defuse a bomb. First, Grey Knights undergo extensive amoutns of mindconditioning, to the point where EVERYONE of them is a powerful psyker, and, if I remember correctly, their very BONES are inscribed with protective wards. Have fun doing that to billions of people. Second, many Inquisitors DO fall to Chaos, so even within the Inquisition, it's not like you can just check out the Necroteuch at you local library. Inquisitors get away with it because, like GKs, they trained a life to withstand Chaos. And even then, it doesn't alway work. I suspect you know very little about Chaos?


Yet, they didn't, and that's the key diference. Most people probably had evil toughts now and then. It's the ones that actually give in to their evil toughts that we need to be worried about.

Sure thing, but the fact is, that's not a fault of the IoM. That's human nature. It's not terribly important whether you actually do it or not, it's important that you are a man who can plan multiple strategies where the best outcome is that only a few millions die, and that you would be willing to execute that plan, should push come to shove.


Nice try, but Jurten was pretty explicit in showing his decision was solely FOR THE EMPEROR!

Yes, because he was an Imperial officer. What you didn't seem to get was that the same scenario could happen anywhere, even on this world. You just replace Emperor with anything you like.


By all means, point me to any elite militaries with the top tech that only answer to themselves, or the massive research facilities that don't need to comply with the national interests and standards.

Nuclear scientists predicted a small chance that testing the first nuclear bomb could ignite the atmosphere. Guess who tested it anyway? It might not be as extreme as in the 41. millenium, but those things happen everyday in the real world.


Whose planets are they geting their raw resources and recruits again?
Their own planets. Which they own.


Who's supplying them the best guns and armor and know-how?

That would either be they, themselves, or the AdMech. They even have their own fleet, though they aren't allowed to keep a truly extensive navy.


Who supplies the IG waves to do the brunt of the fighting so the SM can then strike the main points?

Often enough, the SMs do the job on their own.


Who keeps the corpse-candle in Terra that's vital for their navigation running?

Sure, shut down everything that keeps us alive. I'm sure THAT will teach them. Oh, wait...


Every chapter needs massive logistics to be maintained. Now I know they usually have their own forges yada yada, but they only exist because the IoM invested massive resources in the creation of each chapter. Those forges and battle barges didn't spawn out of pure faith.

Nope, they were build and maintained by the chapters themselves.

Sure, the Imperium could absolutely wipe out the Space Marines, and could deny them all mobility etc. Only by doing so, they turn the SM against them, while at the same time robbing themselves of one of their best weapons. And the SM know this very well. The way it is now is most beneficial for both. After all, Space Marines DO fight for the Imperium, and they ARE very effective at that. They're just harder to control.


Actually, we do all the time. Large projects needs obscene amounts of money/resources. Said obscene amounts of money/resources need to come from big institutions. And chances they'll ask you for things you don't like are pretty high, and you can't really bite the hand that feeds you. Unless you're in 40K, that runs in the rule of GRIMDARKNESS.

I'm pretty sure the AdMech is independent. In fact, they insist on their independence at every turn. Just like with the SM, the Imperium could bring the AdMech down, but doing so would cripple the Imperium forever. Don't you understand that?


Again, the IoM has plenty of civil wars/catastrophes whitout the need of chaos and orks buting in. From officers like Jurgen to corrupt governors and power struggles, things could actualy turn much worst in the IoM if there's not a big common enemy to unite against.

Wo don't know that, becaus we don't know how the Imperium would have evolved had there been no Chaos or other enemies, because the nature of it's enemies define the nature of the Imperium. And do you expect them to run a galaxy-spanning empire without civil war? That's billions upon billions of people, with thousands of planets. Somewhere, somebody WILL be unhappy.

[Wraith]

From officers like Jurgen [....]

Jurgen. (http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Ferik_Jurgen#.Tt_m5PJbWWY) When you find out who you're talking about, please let me know. :smallsmile:

And, "The Dark Age of Technology" proves the rest of it wrong. Remember - that utopic period in human history when humanity owned most of the galaxy without any significant rivals apart from the Eldar, who had much better things to do than worry about upstart monkies? :smalltongue:

[Squark]

Jurgen. (http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Ferik_Jurgen#.Tt_m5PJbWWY) When you find out who you're talking about, please let me know. :smallsmile:

And, "The Dark Age of Technology" proves the rest of it wrong. Remember - that utopic period in human history when humanity owned most of the galaxy without any significant rivals apart from the Eldar, who had much better things to do than worry about upstart monkies? :smalltongue:

He meant Jurten, the Commander who gave the order that started the atomic war on Krieg. Minor misspellings happen.

But yeah, I was tempted to point out that misspelling, too. Mostly because the idea of Fenrik Jurgen the officer is endlessly amusing.


Then the Imperium leadership are a bunch of hypocrites, because Inquisitors and Grey Knights mess directly with the foulest chaos stuff all the time and get away with it.

I don't care how they do it, the IoM clearly have safe measures against chaos, yet they'll rather burn billions of innocents rather than apply whatever methods they use to keep inquisitors and grey knights safe.

They'd love to do just that (although some of the protections the Grey Knights have probably wouldn't work for the majority of the human population, as they aren't powerful enough psykers). Got enough gene-seed for a trillion people, and the material to rewrite their personality? The Imperium certainly doesn't. As for inquisitors... Inquisitors go batty all the time. Well, not all the time (We just tend to hear mostly about the ones who do go nuts, because they make for more interesting stories. Inquisitors who are good at what they do make for boring stories, because they rarely do anything newsworthy (or at least, no one sees them do it)), but fairly often. Would it be nice if we could give everyone the training the inquisitors do? Yeah, but again, not everyone has the strength of personality to do it, and the Imperium doesn't have the resources to set up a permanent education system that can churn out a trillion Inquisitors every century or so.


Who's supplying them the best guns and armor and know-how?
Whose planets are they geting their raw resources and recruits again?
Who keeps the corpse-candle in Terra that's vital for their navigation running?
Who supplies the IG waves to do the brunt of the fighting so the SM can then strike the main points?
Space Marines have their own planets to recruit from*, and Forge Worlds dedicated to churning out nothing but gear for their use. And the people who live on those Forge worlds are damn proud of this; If you were making the weapons an Angel would use in his service of god, wouldn't you be? As for who supplies the IG... The Imperial Guard and the Space Marines are two different things. I like the metaphor they use in the Big Rulebook; Space Marines are the sword of the Emperor (a precision weapon good for doing work that requires a fine touch, but not a lot else), while the Guard is the hammer of the emperor (A multi-purpose weapon/tool that can be used in a wide variety of situations). The Imperial Guard often don't work alongside the Space Marines, instead one is used to clean up after one or the other (Use Imperial Guardsmen to pacify a planet after a group of Marines makes a precision strike at the Xenos element corrupting it, or a Death Watch kill team applying a lot of force in a small place to wipe out the last, really hard to get to parts of a Genestealer infestation)



*or can get them from any nearby planet, if they're a crusade chapter. And if you get picked to become a space marine, you take that chance. You don't have a choice yeah, but even if you had it, you wouldn't take it if you lived in the Imperium of Man. Space Marines are not called Angels of death just because they kill stuff. If an Angel came to you (put yourself in the shoes of a very religious person if you need to, as religious skeptics don't tend to live long in the IoM unless they're good at hiding it), and told you they needed you to train to become one, you'd leap at the chance.

[deuterio12]

That's like saying because we have bomb technicians, everybody can defuse a bomb.

More like saying that when we have a bomb threat, we can quickly call a bomb technician to take care of the situation. And even if no technician is available, at least evacuate the people nearby, even if there's the risk the one who put the bomb will escape in the confusion.

In the IoM, the bomb technician is a spoiled child that may or may not answer your call, and then the officers just decide to call a nuclear strike in the city where the bomb was "just to be safe".



First, Grey Knights undergo extensive amoutns of mindconditioning, to the point where EVERYONE of them is a powerful psyker, and, if I remember correctly, their very BONES are inscribed with protective wards. Have fun doing that to billions of people.

What's the point of having an over-the-top IoM if they can't even do that? By all means, start with planetary governors, then important officers, promote investigation on how to make the process faster, mass-produce it, etc, etc. Kinda how we do with medicine.

The only logic explanation is that the IoM is indeed a place of pure decay where they haven't managed to make any significant advance in 10.000 years.:smallwink:




Second, many Inquisitors DO fall to Chaos, so even within the Inquisition, it's not like you can just check out the Necroteuch at you local library. Inquisitors get away with it because, like GKs, they trained a life to withstand Chaos. And even then, it doesn't alway work.

False, Grey Knights have a 0% betrayal rate. Their chapter master even waltz in the chaos realms itself whitout any trouble.




I suspect you know very little about Chaos?

I aparently know more than anyone else in this thread, since in the previous one people were seriously arguing stuff like Khorne being the weakest chaos god and his followers being a bunch of peaceful philosophers.



Sure thing, but the fact is, that's not a fault of the IoM. That's human nature. It's not terribly important whether you actually do it or not, it's important that you are a man who can plan multiple strategies where the best outcome is that only a few millions die, and that you would be willing to execute that plan, should push come to shove.

In Krieg's case, the best plan would've been to escape the planet and then come back with reinforcments when available to crush the rebels whitout glassing the planet. Instead he decides to torch the planet.

But really, it's simply hilarious how the IoM in one moment has over a billion warships (that's a million ships per planet), and the other they have nothing to deal with a planet going rebel. Hurray for IoM innefeciency!




Yes, because he was an Imperial officer. What you didn't seem to get was that the same scenario could happen anywhere, even on this world. You just replace Emperor with anything you like.

Still didn't happen. Nyah!



Nuclear scientists predicted a small chance that testing the first nuclear bomb could ignite the atmosphere. Guess who tested it anyway?

The government ordered them to test it anyway. If the scientists didn't want permission, they wouldn't have pointed out that.

On the other hand, nowadays everybody's strictly forbidden from detonating more nuclear bombs in the planet's surface, even if just for test purposes.

And you still didn't provide military examples.:smallamused:



Their own planets. Which they own.

And who gave them those planets? Who colonized them to begin with?



That would either be they, themselves, or the AdMech. They even have their own fleet, though they aren't allowed to keep a truly extensive navy.

Nope, again you can't make forges and ships out of faith. It was the IoM that first supplied them with those.



Often enough, the SMs do the job on their own.

Movie marines do it. Actual SM, like pointed time and time again in Imperial Armors and wars like Armagedon, leave the IG to do the brunt of the fighting.



Sure, shut down everything that keeps us alive. I'm sure THAT will teach them. Oh, wait...

So you do admit the SM are basically parasites with guns.:smallwink:



Nope, they were build and maintained by the chapters themselves.

Build and maintained thanks to the IoM first giving them the ships and forges needed to do that. Again, chapters don't spawn out of of thin air. The IoM is the one collecting extra geneseed, making new neophytes, then hands them guns and gear and planets and their own fleet.

And 50% of the time they turn to chaos.



Sure, the Imperium could absolutely wipe out the Space Marines, and could deny them all mobility etc. Only by doing so, they turn the SM against them, while at the same time robbing themselves of one of their best weapons. And the SM know this very well. The way it is now is most beneficial for both. After all, Space Marines DO fight for the Imperium, and they ARE very effective at that. They're just harder to control.

SM fight for their own interests. Like the Dark Angels that'll go out of their way to capture anyone who knows about their past, even if it means dooming countless other people. Like the Blood Ravens that seem more interested in looting everything they can than actualy helping.

Each SM is built from the blood of hundreds of talented children. I don't care how good each SM is, I would rather have the hundreds of elite soldiers/engineers/leaders that don't have 50% chaos turn rate and actually follow orders. In particular when a lascannon/plasma gun hits just as hard whetever is a stormtrooper or a SM firing it.




I'm pretty sure the AdMech is independent. In fact, they insist on their independence at every turn. Just like with the SM, the Imperium could bring the AdMech down, but doing so would cripple the Imperium forever. Don't you understand that?

-The IoM's technology works on the back of STCs, and any idiot can use those. We have records of feral worlds churning out ships thanks to those for emperor's sake!
-Whatever creative sparks the dudes in Mars have, it's due to the void dragon being there. By all means replace them with ones more loyal.
-As pointed above, the resources spent on the SM could be much better empoyed in other stuff.

The Imperium is already crippled forever, and no matter how you look at it, SM did it.



Wo don't know that, becaus we don't know how the Imperium would have evolved had there been no Chaos or other enemies, because the nature of it's enemies define the nature of the Imperium.

Ah, but see, you can never remove chaos from the equation. Because chaos is literally a reflection of the mortal feelings, desires and fears. Just like the eldar's arrogance ended up spawning a chaos god, so does the IoM decay, violence and intrigue feed and strenghten chaos. Corruption does beget corruption.

[Borgh]

More like saying that when we have a bomb threat, we can quickly call a bomb technician to take care of the situation. And even if no technician is available, at least evacuate the people nearby, even if there's the risk the one who put the bomb will escape in the confusion.

In the IoM, the bomb technician is a spoiled child that may or may not answer your call, and then the officers just decide to call a nuclear strike in the city where the bomb was "just to be safe".
If the IoM declares Exterminatus, it means the did not find a bomb but instead found something that does not even fall in the scope of bomb techs anymore, not even nuclear scientists will help by then.




What's the point of having an over-the-top IoM if they can't even do that? By all means, start with planetary governors, then important officers, promote investigation on how to make the process faster, mass-produce it, etc, etc. Kinda how we do with medicine.
Over the top =! everything is over the top. Sure, they could retcon it so that every person is a GK but they don't, because that would not fit in the Grimdark setting. In the setting, human life is cheaper than the gun they carry.


The only logic explanation is that the IoM is indeed a place of pure decay where they haven't managed to make any significant advance in 10.000 years.:smallwink:
see above.


False, Grey Knights have a 0% betrayal rate. Their chapter master even waltz in the chaos realms itself whitout any trouble. but inquisitors are not GK or even SM, they are (mostly) regular humans




I aparently know more than anyone else in this thread, since in the previous one people were seriously arguing stuff like Khorne being the weakest chaos god and his followers being a bunch of peaceful philosophers.
You are talking out of you hyperbolic bum here


In Krieg's case, the best plan would've been to escape the planet and then come back with reinforcments when available to crush the rebels whitout glassing the planet. Instead he decides to torch the planet.
I don't know the exact fluff here, maybe someone with the book could elaborate on his motivation here.


But really, it's simply hilarious how the IoM in one moment has over a billion warships (that's a million ships per planet), and the other they have nothing to deal with a planet going rebel. Hurray for IoM innefeciency!
wait, what? I don't follow here. Yes, of course the IoM has a billion warships and no, of course they can't be everywhere at once. maybe those billion warships were fighting a hive fleet, a waagh or a black crusade and told the rebel planet they would have to deal with it themselves untill the ships were free again.




Still didn't happen. Nyah!
Now you are being childish. I could name a few things here but that would get me banned under the No Real Politics rule


The government ordered them to test it anyway. If the scientists didn't want permission, they wouldn't have pointed out that.
I looked that up. here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trinity_(nuclear_test)) and here (http://www.fas.org/sgp/othergov/doe/lanl/docs1/00329010.pdf) you are wrong, no government told them to get on with it, they chose to do so themselves.


On the other hand, nowadays everybody's strictly forbidden from detonating more nuclear bombs in the planet's surface, even if just for test purposes.

And you still didn't provide military examples.:smallamused:
wrong again (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comprehensive_Test_Ban_Treaty) it is just controversial. and science that governments don't endorse happens everyday, thats called independent research. again, the rest is modern politics so i'm not going to burn my fingers on that.



And who gave them those planets? Who colonized them to begin with?
[B]and who decided to give them to the new autonomous chapter?



Nope, again you can't make forges and ships out of faith. It was the IoM that first supplied them with those.
in exchange for the service of the SM who see their ships as holy weopons of the emperors will



Movie marines do it. Actual SM, like pointed time and time again in Imperial Armors and wars like Armagedon, leave the IG to do the brunt of the fighting.
There is a nice bit in the first Ragnar book where he ponders who is the greater hero: the mighty SM who dropkicks a greater deamon or the guardsman who goes up agains a carnifex armed with a t-shirt and flashlight. This ilustrates a nice dichotomy between the two: they are both heroes, the SM do small but incredibly difficult stuff, the IG do lots of comparativley easy war.


So you do admit the SM are basically parasites with guns.:smallwink:
they are symbiotes. They take up resources but they give back violence.


Build and maintained thanks to the IoM first giving them the ships and forges needed to do that. Again, chapters don't spawn out of of thin air. The IoM is the one collecting extra geneseed, making new neophytes, then hands them guns and gear and planets and their own fleet.

And 50% of the time they turn to chaos.
note give, the IoM kickstarts a chapter but then decide to let them have free reign without needing much further support. Now to the second part of this quote: 50% is far exagerated, lexicanum names 75 renegade chapters (http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Renegade_Space_Marine_Chapters_(List)#.TuCt5rJC-JI) out of about 1000 active chapters. I did not feel like looking up how much of those have been destroyed but I'd guess the majority. Then there is Horus' tour de force which is an admitted mistake.



SM fight for their own interests. Like the Dark Angels that'll go out of their way to capture anyone who knows about their past, even if it means dooming countless other people. Like the Blood Ravens that seem more interested in looting everything they can than actualy helping.
Blood magpies is just fan fiction, they don't really count. Yes of course the SM occasionally do their own stuff (silver skulls don't go to war without the right omens) but most of the time they do what benefits the IoM at large. its this whole "about half the codices" thing you might have heard off.


Each SM is built from the blood of hundreds of talented children. I don't care how good each SM is, I would rather have the hundreds of elite soldiers/engineers/leaders that don't have 50% chaos turn rate and actually follow orders. In particular when a lascannon/plasma gun hits just as hard whetever is a stormtrooper or a SM firing it.
I'd guess the choas turn rate is lower for the mind-conditioned SM then it is for regular humans. again, exaggerated 50%. and yes, in this reality saving hundreds of kids would be preferable but in the IoM there are billions more talented kids where the they come from and the SM are incredibly usefull.



-The IoM's technology works on the back of STCs, and any idiot can use those. We have records of feral worlds churning out ships thanks to those for emperor's sake!
-Whatever creative sparks the dudes in Mars have, it's due to the void dragon being there. By all means replace them with ones more loyal.
-As pointed above, the resources spent on the SM could be much better empoyed in other stuff.
- Not true, there are no longer any "push button, receive bacon" stc machines, just scraps of blueprints. And you need competent people to use those. I'd also like your source for the feral world producing ships.
- I'd like a source here too, as far as I know almost none of the Admech even know about the dragon, most are honest mechanic-priests
- not really, both the admech and the SM fill a role no other entity could fill and trying to remove them would be far too much effort to be worth it.


The Imperium is already crippled forever, and no matter how you look at it, SM did it.
Yes, yes it is.
The IoM recognized the mistake and made sure it won't happen again.



Ah, but see, you can never remove chaos from the equation. Because chaos is literally a reflection of the mortal feelings, desires and fears. Just like the eldar's arrogance ended up spawning a chaos god, so does the IoM decay, violence and intrigue feed and strenghten chaos. Corruption does beget corruption.
That is what he is saying

edit: reformatted
many more edits: fixed stuff

[GolemsVoice]

More like saying that when we have a bomb threat, we can quickly call a bomb technician to take care of the situation. And even if no technician is available, at least evacuate the people nearby, even if there's the risk the one who put the bomb will escape in the confusion.

In the IoM, the bomb technician is a spoiled child that may or may not answer your call, and then the officers just decide to call a nuclear strike in the city where the bomb was "just to be safe".

What's the point of having an over-the-top IoM if they can't even do that? By all means, start with planetary governors, then important officers, promote investigation on how to make the process faster, mass-produce it, etc, etc. Kinda how we do with medicine.


Ahm, WHAT? The process that creates ONE SINGLE GK is incredibly painful, expensive, and would kill anyone who is not GK-material. That is, EVERYONE else. Probably even regular Space Marines.

And to carry on your example, in Warhammer 40K, anyone who would have been present when the bomb was discovered might become a bomb himself.


The only logic explanation is that the IoM is indeed a place of pure decay where they haven't managed to make any significant advance in 10.000 years.

There are a few recently developed tanks and weapons that prove you wrong there. Sorry. Sure, science isn't that big in the IoM, but it's not a place of pure stagnation either.


False, Grey Knights have a 0% betrayal rate. Their chapter master even waltz in the chaos realms itself whitout any trouble.

Yes. GKs. You remember what I said about becoming a GK. It's INCREDIBLY difficult, and only 0,00001% of humans are tough enough, AND are powerful psykers. Mosty Inquisitors are not. You're essentially saying that because one man climbed Mount Everest by himself, everyone could do it, anytime they liked.


I aparently know more than anyone else in this thread, since in the previous one people were seriously arguing stuff like Khorne being the weakest chaos god and his followers being a bunch of peaceful philosophers.
You should read that alout to yourself. Borgh answered that petty well.


In Krieg's case, the best plan would've been to escape the planet and then come back with reinforcments when available to crush the rebels whitout glassing the planet. Instead he decides to torch the planet.

But really, it's simply hilarious how the IoM in one moment has over a billion warships (that's a million ships per planet), and the other they have nothing to deal with a planet going rebel. Hurray for IoM innefeciency!

They DO have those ships. But remember the map that somebody posted? These ships are all over the place, and apparently, no fleet was available. Remember, it has to be a real fleet, since sending one or two ships would just mean those ships would be easily slaughter by orbital defences, in which case you've gained nothing and lost two ships.


Still didn't happen. Nyah!

You don't get what I'm saying. Or you don't want to get it.


The government ordered them to test it anyway. If the scientists didn't want permission, they wouldn't have pointed out that.

On the other hand, nowadays everybody's strictly forbidden from detonating more nuclear bombs in the planet's surface, even if just for test purposes.

And you still didn't provide military examples.

Borgh answered that one fine. And the H-Bomb isn't a military example? What IS, then?


So you do admit the SM are basically parasites with guns.

Yes, they are. And I never claimed otherwise. Just that they aren't parasites, because a parasite only takes. The SM give, a lot. By smashing the Emperor's enemies, which is basically ALL they ever do.


Each SM is built from the blood of hundreds of talented children. I don't care how good each SM is, I would rather have the hundreds of elite soldiers/engineers/leaders that don't have 50% chaos turn rate and actually follow orders. In particular when a lascannon/plasma gun hits just as hard whetever is a stormtrooper or a SM firing it.


SM don't have a monopoly on turning to Chaos. Those Stormtroopers could do it just as easily, and they'd lack the mental training that SMs receive. It's not like becoming a SM activates some deeply rooted desire to turn to Chaos which normal men don't have, which you seem to be implying.


-The IoM's technology works on the back of STCs, and any idiot can use those. We have records of feral worlds churning out ships thanks to those for emperor's sake!


Yes, there is ONE story of ONE feral world building ONE ship over the course of HUNDREDS of years. Industrial capacity, ahoy!


-Whatever creative sparks the dudes in Mars have, it's due to the void dragon being there. By all means replace them with ones more loyal.


There are enough Techpriests and Magi who are not on Mars, and a lot of research happens not on Mars. I'd even say most of what the AdMech does happens not on Mars, due to the simple fact that much more AdMech facilites are anyplace other than Mars. Sure, Mars is important, but it's not like nothing ever gets done anywhere else. Also, if you "replace them with someone more loyal", that means that the entire AdMech will likely turn on you. Horray civil war!

[Zorg]

And again, the primarchs were stolen and half-corrupted by chaos, and the Emperor goes and puts them on the top possible leadership positions. That's Stupid Evil for you.

None of the Primarchs were corrupted by their experiences in the warp as infants - they were corrupted and twisted by their experiences with humanity.



Nice try, but Jurten was pretty explicit in showing his decision was solely FOR THE EMPEROR!:smallamused:

Because one guy acting in the name of the Emperor proves your point how? I can point to a great many characters who are selfless and noble and do so in the Emperor's name. And it's not like people in the real world do evil things in the name of a God - tarring everyone with the same brush based on teh actions of an individual or select group is narrow mindedness at its most base.



By all means, point me to any elite militaries with the top tech that only answer to themselves, or the massive research facilities that don't need to comply with the national interests and standards.

The Foreign Legion tried to overthrow the French government in the 60s, and had to be reorganised (some units moved to France so they could be watched, others disbanded) as they were effectively a law unto themselves.
Depending on how conspiracy theory you want to go some will say the level of control exerted by the government over groups such as the SAS, Spetznaz, and DEVGRU is minimal.



Again, the IoM has plenty of civil wars/catastrophes whitout the need of chaos and orks buting in. From officers like Jurgen to corrupt governors and power struggles, things could actualy turn much worst in the IoM if there's not a big common enemy to unite against.

Sort of like humanity then?


And since y'all are getting into serious quote wars, a bit of levity:

http://i147.photobucket.com/albums/r314/Gotthammer/Picard.png

[The Glyphstone]

note give, the IoM kickstarts a chapter but then decide to let them have free reign without needing much further support. Now to the second part of this quote: 50% is far exagerated, lexicanum names 75 renegade chapters out of about 1000 active chapters. I did not feel like looking up how much of those have been destroyed but I'd guess the majority. Then there is Horus' tour de force which is an admitted mistake.

This.

Deut, saying '50% of Marines turn to chaos' (because you only look specifically at the Heresy) is like saying '50% of all American Presidents were named George Washington' (because you only look specifically at the years 1789-1801). It's hyperpolic, misleading, and undermines the rest of your points regardless of their validity because it makes you look like you don't know what you're talking about.

[Misery Esquire]

It's hyperpolic, misleading, and undermines the rest of your points regardless of their validity because it makes you look like you don't know what you're talking about.

Hint ; He honestly doesn't have any idea what he's talking about.

[Squark]

Hint ; He honestly doesn't have any idea what he's talking about.

Technically, at one point, roughly 50% of the Space Marine legions did turn to chaos.


But we're discussing Warhammer 40000, not Warhammer 30000.


EDIT: v Yeah, I know. I was just pointing out he's not pulling the figure out of his behind, he's just mixing time periods.

[GolemsVoice]

Technically, at one point, roughly 50% of the Space Marine legions did turn to chaos.

Yeah, I know what he's referring to, but the way he uses this argument makes it sound like every marine has a 50% chance to turn to Chaos at any given time.

[Wraith]

He meant Jurten, the Commander who gave the order that started the atomic war on Krieg. Minor misspellings happen.

But yeah, I was tempted to point out that misspelling, too. Mostly because the idea of Fenrik Jurgen the officer is endlessly amusing.

Ah, that makes much more sense - thank you, Squark :smallsmile:

And yeah, I only did it because the idea of Jurgan in charge was quite amusing. Still, basing the entirety of the argument "Humans are awful" because one guy made a mistake.... I don't even need to explain that, I think.

[Squark]

Frankly, the entire argument is starting to devolve into ad hominem and strawmanning (And a dash of Anecdotal Fallacy) (There's a bit of guilt on both sides), so I think both sides need to, at least, tone it down a notch.

Speaking of which, what is the official ruling (or is there one?) on how canon the fluff is from out-dated codexes (For instance, stuff from the 3rd Edition Necron codex about the War in Heaven that is not contradicted by the 5th edition one, or the details on how Gauss weapons work)?

[lord_khaine]

And to carry on your example, in Warhammer 40K, anyone who would have been present when the bomb was discovered might become a bomb himself.

And thats because bomb is a bad analog, a more fitting one would be "virus"

[The Glyphstone]

Frankly, the entire argument is starting to devolve into ad hominem and strawmanning (And a dash of Anecdotal Fallacy) (There's a bit of guilt on both sides), so I think both sides need to, at least, tone it down a notch.

Speaking of which, what is the official ruling (or is there one?) on how canon the fluff is from out-dated codexes (For instance, stuff from the 3rd Edition Necron codex about the War in Heaven that is not contradicted by the 5th edition one, or the details on how Gauss weapons work)?

Pretty sure the Official GW line is "mumble mumble *shifty eyes* you decide what's canon anyways?"

[Cheesegear]

I aparently know more than anyone else in this thread

That, more than anything just destroys your integrity and I wont bother replying to anything else since the rest of your argument is Straw Mans and exaggerated hyperbole that I typically expect from other places in the bowels of the 'net.


None of the Primarchs were corrupted by their experiences in the warp as infants - they were corrupted and twisted by their experiences with humanity.

Lorgar was twisted from one bad experience with Dad. Chaos had nothing to do with it until much later.
Angron was twisted when he had implants put in his head and Dad took him against his will and watched all his people die when Dad could have intervened - he was there!
Curze/Night Haunter was ruined from the start.
Alpharius was loyal to Horus, not to the Emperor. Because the Emperor wasn't the one to find Alphy in the first place. Plus everyone was a d* to him.
Magnus was denounced by Dad and was angry when Russ was sent to kill him, and later more angry when he found out Dad wanted to put him in the throne.
Mortarion had no friends.
Perturabo realised that he was not on a Unity Crusade, just on a killing spree and the Emperor was doing it wrong.

IIRC, Horus and Fulgrim were the only ones directly tainted by Chaos. By the same sword no less.


Speaking of which, what is the official ruling (or is there one?) on how canon the fluff is from out-dated codexes (For instance, stuff from the 3rd Edition Necron codex about the War in Heaven that is not contradicted by the 5th edition one, or the details on how Gauss weapons work)?

"Everything is canon, not all of it is true." is the official stance of GW.

The normal view is that most-recent fluff takes precedence, and unless directly contradicted, the old fluff still remains.

[IthilanorStPete]

IIRC, Horus and Fulgrim were the only ones directly tainted by Chaos. By the same sword no less.

Nitpick: I don't think that it was the same sword, though I admittedly haven't ready any of the 30k books directly concernng Horus. But IIRC, Horus was tainted by Chaos on Davin, while Fulgrim was corrupted by the sword he took from the temple of the Laer.

[Cheesegear]

Nitpick: I don't think that it was the same sword, though I admittedly haven't ready any of the 30k books directly concernng Horus.

I wont post spoilers because the books are old. But if you haven't read the first two HH books, then this post is spoilers. (http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Anathame#.TuFp7rLhdtk)

Erebus (a Word Bearer, in the Sons of Horus by way of the Chaplain edict) steals an Anathame (and starts a war) and gives it to a general.
The general gets left behind on Davin's Moon, and later says the Imperium sucks.

Horus is angry that one of the worlds he liberated has Fallen, and as Warmaster he can't have that, and with a bit of goading by Erebus goes to Davin's Moon.
Horus is stabbed by the Anathame.

Erebus convinces the Sons of Horus to take him down to Davin to be healed. Erebus is the only one allowed with Horus in the temple, and he goes on a dream quest with Horus. Erebus duels Magnus in psykery over Horus and appears to win. I'm unclear how Erebus defeats Magnus when Magnus is supposedly that powerful.

Horus is healed. Fulgrim stops by to see how the Warmaster is doing, Fabius Bile takes the Anathame and gifts it to Fulgrim.

Erebus seals his place as one of the Holy Trinity of Word Bearers.

Erebus the Warmonger later is seen as a Dreadnought in the Word Bearers trilogy, one of my favourite series.

[IthilanorStPete]

I wont post spoilers because the books are old. But if you haven't read the first two HH books, then this post is spoilers. (http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Anathame#.TuFp7rLhdtk)

Erebus (a Word Bearer, in the Sons of Horus by way of the Chaplain edict) steals an Anathame (and starts a war) and gives it to a general.
The general gets left behind on Davin's Moon, and later says the Imperium sucks.

Horus is angry that one of the worlds he liberated has Fallen, and as Warmaster he can't have that, and with a bit of goading by Erebus goes to Davin's Moon.
Horus is stabbed by the Anathame.

Erebus convinces the Sons of Horus to take him down to Davin to be healed. Erebus is the only one allowed with Horus in the temple, and he goes on a dream quest with Horus. Erebus duels Magnus in psykery over Horus and appears to win. I'm unclear how Erebus defeats Magnus when Magnus is supposedly that powerful.

Horus is healed. Fulgrim stops by to see how the Warmaster is doing, Fabius Bile takes the Anathame and gifts it to Fulgrim.

Erebus the Warmonger later is seen as a Dreadnought in the Word Bearers trilogy, one of my favourite series.

Ah. Weird, because in Fulgrim (the book), no mention is made of the Anathame - it's the silver Daemonblade that Fulgrim finds in the Laer temple that corrupts him, and contains the daemon that eventually possesses him.

[Cheesegear]

Ah. Weird, because in Fulgrim (the book), no mention is made of the Anathame - it's the silver Daemonblade that Fulgrim finds in the Laer temple that corrupts him, and contains the daemon that eventually possesses him.

Fulgrim had three swords at one point? :smallconfused:

The ending of False Gods has Fulgrim clearly in possession of the Anathame.
Fulgrim has Fulgrim with the Laer Blade and the Fireblade.

[IthilanorStPete]

Fulgrim had three swords at one point? :smallconfused:

The ending of False Gods has Fulgrim clearly in possession of the Anathame.
Fulgrim has Fulgrim with the Laer Blade and the Fireblade.

...apparently? I'm guessing the writers just didn't coordinate.

[iyaerP]

The earlier comment about the Blood Ravens being just fanfiction, how close is that to GW's stance on what is and isn't canon? Because they made Black Library book out of the (horribly written) adventures of Gabrial Angelous and the Third company through the Dawn of War campaigns. And furthermore, I know I have seen a single lone Blood Ravens tactical marine on the pages of the space marines codex during one of the "painting schemes" sections.

Is it all just speculation, or do we know?

[Cheesegear]

...apparently? I'm guessing the writers just didn't coordinate.

False Gods - Graham McNeill, the ending has Fulgrim in possession of the Anathame.
Fulgrim - Graham McNeill, doesn't mention the Anathame.

Oh Mr. McNeill, you so silly.


The earlier comment about the Blood Ravens being just fanfiction, how close is that to GW's stance on what is and isn't canon?

The books are canon, the games are not. Blood Ravens have an IA article and everything.

It's basically canon that Blood Ravens are descended from Chaos stock.
Blood Ravens have a high proportion of psykers, so much so that their entire 1st Company are psykers (100 Marines), in fact, to be in the 1st Company, a requirement is that you need to be a psyker. And that's not even including the rest of the Chapter.

A Thousand Sons makes a not-so-subtle hint that Blood Ravens are descended from Thousand Sons.

[iyaerP]

What version of imperial armour do they show up in?

[Squark]

The books are canon, the games are not. Blood Ravens have an IA article and everything.

It's basically canon that Blood Ravens are descended from Chaos stock.
Blood Ravens have a high proportion of psykers, so much so that their entire 1st Company are psykers (100 Marines), in fact, to be in the 1st Company, a requirement is that you need to be a psyker. And that's not even including the rest of the Chapter.

A Thousand Sons makes a not-so-subtle hint that Blood Ravens are descended from Thousand Sons.

...

Okay, explain that one to me. How exactly did the Imperium get the Gene-seed from the Thousand sons they'd need to establish a chapter? Especially without knowing where it's from, since no sane person would knowingly use the gene-seed of a chapter that fell to chaos.

Although it does sound eerily plausible, given their gene-seed flaws...

[IthilanorStPete]

IA here stands for Index Astartes, a series of articles that were published in White Dwarf going through many of the chapters (as well as a few things like Chaplains, Librarians, Dreads), detailing their origins, history, customs, etc. They're invaluable for fluff purposes, and generally pretty awesome. The article on Dreadnoughts, for example, details the largest Dread on Dread fight recorded, during the Third War for Armageddon - 17 Marine dreads against a giant horde of Dreads and Kans.

[iyaerP]

...

Okay, explain that one to me. How exactly did the Imperium get the Gene-seed from the Thousand sons they'd need to establish a chapter? Especially without knowing where it's from, since no sane person would knowingly use the gene-seed of a chapter that fell to chaos.

Although it does sound eerily plausible, given their gene-seed flaws...

I think the implication is that the Blood Ravens were founded by a group of Thousand Sons marines who split from their legion and remained as loyalists, possibly in hiding so as to avoid being hunted down with the rest of hte traitors.

[The_Final_Stand]

Fulgrim had three swords at one point? :smallconfused:

The ending of False Gods has Fulgrim clearly in possession of the Anathame.
Fulgrim has Fulgrim with the Laer Blade and the Fireblade.

Short answer: Yes.
Long answer:

Vespasian now saw that his lord and master had three swords laid out before him. Fireblade lay pointed at a statue of Marius Vairosean, the ... silver sword of the Laer pointed at one of Julius Kaesoron. A weapon with a glittering grey blade and golden hilt lay in a shattered piece of marble sitting between the two statues...

Given that that last weapon fits the anathame's description, yes. Fulgrim had three swords.

[GolemsVoice]

Okay, explain that one to me. How exactly did the Imperium get the Gene-seed from the Thousand sons they'd need to establish a chapter? Especially without knowing where it's from, since no sane person would knowingly use the gene-seed of a chapter that fell to chaos.

I could also imagine that the Imperium still keeps the original geneseed around, for whatever reasons. Could that be?


Another question: it is said that there are about one SM for every planet, making it about one million SM. Does anyone know how the rate would be for guardsmen? How many guardsmen are there? And how many are there on the typical worlds?

[Borgh]

The Blood angels were a part of the Thousand sons that were away from home when wolf-scat hit the fan, they are a sort-of first founding chapter.

It is still unclear how they got back in touch with the imperium without being set on fire though.

[Talkkno]

I could also imagine that the Imperium still keeps the original geneseed around, for whatever reasons. Could that be?


In Deathwatch, its noted the Imperium does actually keep the traitor legions geneseed still on hand, albeit under stasis.

[Cheesegear]

Does anyone know how the rate would be for guardsmen? How many guardsmen are there? And how many are there on the typical worlds?

Depends on the planet and number and type of regiments that it founds.

The Valhallan 18th, for example, has 120,000 men.
The Votroyan Armoured 24th only has 1,500 men.

[iyaerP]

I remember that in the Cain books, his various regiments never number much over 1000.


As for the total number of guardsmen? Let us do some simple extrapolation.

About a million planets in the imperium. Give or take. Assume an average population of 1 billion people per planet. Hive worlds contain more, feral, death and agriworlds probably contain quite less. That puts us at about 10^15 people as the population for the imperium as a whole. Assuming a total war footing at a somewhat unsustainable enlistment rate of 30%, quite appropriate for the GRIM DARKNESS OF THE FUTURE, we still have well over 300 QUADRILLION soldiers in the imperial guard. Margin of error here is probably 4 powers of 10 or so. But either way. MANY MANS.

[Winterwind]

Another question: it is said that there are about one SM for every planet, making it about one million SM. Does anyone know how the rate would be for guardsmen? How many guardsmen are there? And how many are there on the typical worlds?I was rather bemused when it occurred to me recently that, if all WH40k players (or rather all WH40k players who own some Space Marines) got together, with all of their models, there is a very good chance they would actually have more Marine miniatures there than there officially are Space Marines in the actual WH40k universe. One million Space Marines? I would be rather surprised if GW has not already sold a lot more Space Marine miniatures than that over the years.

This is even more extreme with Grey Knights - even though much less people play those, the number of minis surely outnumbers the "real" Grey Knights by orders of magnitude. Heck, just a single Grey Knight army organization plan - 3 Elites, 6 Troops, 3 Fast Attack, 3 Heavy Support, an army that could be owned and played by a single player, can theoretically field just about half of all the psycannons that officially exist in the WH40k universe, and have more Purifiers than exist in the entire chapter most of the time!

Meanwhile, with the Imperial Guard, if every single human on our present day Earth owned a thousand Imperial Guard models - it would still be short of the "real" Imperial Guard by orders of magnitude. Most likely by quite many orders of magnitude, even.

[deuterio12]

Frankly, the entire argument is starting to devolve into ad hominem and strawmanning (And a dash of Anecdotal Fallacy) (There's a bit of guilt on both sides), so I think both sides need to, at least, tone it down a notch.


Agreed.



And thats because bomb is a bad analog, a more fitting one would be "virus"

Yet not even in the darkest times of story the way to deal with a plague was to torch the country and all the peoples on it. The typical procedure is to try to find a cure or at least proper isolation/detection methods.



That, more than anything just destroys your integrity and I wont bother replying to anything else since the rest of your argument is Straw Mans and exaggerated hyperbole that I typically expect from other places in the bowels of the 'net.

"Anything else"? You only replied to one other of my posts, and it wasn't even related to the ongoing discussion. The fact you can't even counter my arguments just proves my points, whereas the other posters at least show their own views. But whatever, suit yourself. :smallsigh:



Lorgar was twisted from one bad experience with Dad. Chaos had nothing to do with it until much later.
Angron was twisted when he had implants put in his head and Dad took him against his will and watched all his people die when Dad could have intervened - he was there!
Curze/Night Haunter was ruined from the start.
Alpharius was loyal to Horus, not to the Emperor. Because the Emperor wasn't the one to find Alphy in the first place. Plus everyone was a d* to him.
Magnus was denounced by Dad and was angry when Russ was sent to kill him, and later more angry when he found out Dad wanted to put him in the throne.
Mortarion had no friends.
Perturabo realised that he was not on a Unity Crusade, just on a killing spree and the Emperor was doing it wrong.

Ah, I must thank you for actually suporting my points! Seven primarchs going bad whitout need of chaos starting anything goes a long way to show how corrupt the IoM can be just by itself!

Also Ward's a true treasure trove for this subject, I keep finding new stuff every time I re-read one of his works. For example, if you find a super anti-chaos artifact (like stoping daemons from entering our world in a light-year radius), Inquisitors will go out of their way to blow up said artifact out of petty rivarlies (along some billions of people)!



Meanwhile, with the Imperial Guard, if every single human on our present day Earth owned a thousand Imperial Guard models - it would still be short of the "real" Imperial Guard by orders of magnitude. Most likely by quite many orders of magnitude, even.

Not really. One million worlds each with an average population of billions results in around one quadrillion people. Since you can't really afford to have more than 1% of the population in permanent military service, we're looking at tens of trillions of guardsmen. So 7 trillions of guardsmen minis on Earth is actually pretty close.

[lord_khaine]

Yet not even in the darkest times of story the way to deal with a plague was to torch the country and all the peoples on it. The typical procedure is to try to find a cure or at least proper isolation/detection methods

There are times where it would certainly have been the best solution, if people had had the stomack to do so.

And this isnt just a normal virus we are dealing with, it can be compared to a zombie virus where there on average isnt any loss of intellect, and where early stages of zombies cant be detected visualy.

No wonder people are ready to blow up planets or hive cities to get rid of this.

[Borgh]

actually, zombie virus is a pretty good analogy. World War Z (the book) gives a few good examples of ways to deal with it. At one point the russians chem-gas a refugee trail just to flush out the affected and this is lauded as terrible-but-effective.

[Cheesegear]

The fact you can't even counter my arguments just proves my points, whereas the other posters at least show their own views. But whatever, suit yourself. :smallsigh:

You've misread 'unwilling to do so' as 'inability to do so'. I've proved time and again that I know plenty about the fluff. I've read the discussion and you just refuse to be budged no matter the circumstance so it doesn't matter what I say. Frankly, I've got better things to do with my time than argue about fictional facts. Like painting for the Christmas Comp which I'm woefully under-prepared for.


Ah, I must thank you for actually suporting my points! Seven primarchs going bad whitout need of chaos starting anything goes a long way to show how corrupt the IoM can be just by itself!

Well, yes. I'll never disagree that the Imperium is corrupt. That's how Chaos is able to influence it so easily. That's kind of the point of GrimDark. That no matter how good you are on the outside, the inside is a rotten core. The problem is that you're oversimplifying it for no really good reason.

[Brother Oni]

The Blood angels were a part of the Thousand sons that were away from home when wolf-scat hit the fan, they are a sort-of first founding chapter.

It is still unclear how they got back in touch with the imperium without being set on fire though.

Chances are, the loyalist Thousand Sons saw what was happening during the Heresy and focused on surviving the war.
Afterwards they probably decided to change their name and get new armour paint job and the new Blood Ravens hid what evidence was left of their Thousand Sons history.

As for how they got back into touch without being set on fire, they probably came in out of the blue during a conflict with an offer of helping imperial forces. There have been a number of splinter and remmnant chapters that have either wandered off or got lost over the years and come back into the Imperium's fold this way - the Space Sharks for example during the Badab War (http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Space_Sharks).

Do you think this is a plausible enough retcon? :smallbiggrin:

[Borgh]

Chances are, the loyalist Thousand Sons saw what was happening during the Heresy and focused on surviving the war.
Afterwards they probably decided to change their name and get new armour paint job and the new Blood Ravens hid what evidence was left of their Thousand Sons history.
That is the obvious part


As for how they got back into touch without being set on fire, they probably came in out of the blue during a conflict with an offer of helping imperial forces. There have been a number of splinter and remmnant chapters that have either wandered off or got lost over the years and come back into the Imperium's fold this way - the Space Sharks for example during the Badab War (http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Space_Sharks).

Do you think this is a plausible enough retcon? :smallbiggrin:[/QUOTE]
The problem is the time between the horus heresy and the point where a lost chapter showing up gets plausible. I'd assume that for quite a while after the second founding every chapters heritage was well documented so we are talking third founding on the earliest and lexicanum puts that at the start of M32 (http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Founding#.TuIJrLJC-JI), a thousand years after the second founding. A thousand years in which they have to stay hidden. The blood ravens own histories start in M37, seven thousand years after the Heresy. Thats a lot of time to fill.

Imagine this, for seven thousand years:
time M34.532
+++Sender: the Battle Barge Litany of Fury Emperors Aquila+++
Space marine: Hail, governor! we are the who are we this time again? we are the Eagle warriors! We have come to your planet for recruitment!
Governor: Welcome honoured brothers! Pray tell, what brings you to this humble planet? I thought the eagle warriors are three sectors away?
Space marine: they are? well crap Uhm it was a warpstorm. Yeah, the warp did it. So please just let us recruit some of your psykers and we will be off again.

And not one Inquisitor catching up.

[Kesnit]

The blood ravens own histories start in M37, seven thousand years after the Heresy. Thats a lot of time to fill.

There are accounts of ships getting lost in time in the Warp. Wouldn't be possible that they intended to hide out for a few centuries and ended up 7000 years later?

[Zorg]

Ah, I must thank you for actually suporting my points! Seven primarchs going bad whitout need of chaos starting anything goes a long way to show how corrupt the IoM can be just by itself!

Except their corruption had nothing to do with the Imperium, at least not the Imperium as an institution:

Angron - turned crazy by non-Imperial slave owners. Ignored orders to not put the red nails in his men, turning a lot of them crazy.

Mortarion - Raised by alien (possibly Dark Eldar), which doesn't help, he was betrayed by Typhus who was corrupt from the get-go.

Magnus - Made deal with Tzeentch before he met the Emperor, fall came due to his breaking of the Emperor's laws.

Lorgar - Corrupted by Erebus, who never renounced the Chaos worship he had before the Emperor arrived. Also thought he was putting humanity on the path to true enlightenment.

Alpharius - did what he thought was right to stop Chaos in the long run.

Fulgrim - hubris combined with naiveté, plain and simple. When he realised he was out of his depth and had made a terrible mistake, a Daemon posessed him.

Horus - was an idiot who was tricked by Chaos and betrayed by his own men into creating the horrible edifice of the modern day Imperium through destroying the works of the Crusade.

The only ones the Imperium could be faulted for (and then only in part) are Curze for being forced into the role of bogeyman given his already damaged psyche from landing in Gotham City a non-Imperial crapsack world. The other is Peturabo, who basically threw a temper tantrum because he didn't like guard duty and lost it completely when his world rebelled.
Neither of those really have to do with corruption either, just the Primarchs rebelling against their assigned roles.

Most of the traitors turned traitor due to petty jealousies with each other played upon by the corrupted legionnaires, or due to misunderstanding or underestimating chaos (Lorgar and Magnus respectively). Many of them did things despite the Emperor specifically saying "do not do this thing", which really didn't help matters (Angron, Lorgar, Magnus).
The lack of understanding of the role of chaos is pretty fundamental, as most of the traitors don't even realise they're working for the Chaos gods until much later. For instance in the end of Nemesis a huge sacrifice is performed with the victims arranged in an eight-pointed star. Some of the watching Sons of Horus don't understand why they're doing it, and are troubled by it.
Lorgar is horrified by what happens to Fulgrim when he discovers the truth, as he thinks the warp powers just want to party
(Aurelian).
Magnus thinks he's smarter than Tzeentch, making a deal he comes to regret after breaking the Emperor's laws (A Thousand Sons).

The Emperor himself is guilty of this too, thinking that supressing the knowledge of the warp powers would be enough to stop them - but then again he has to be or the whole story would break down.

Though it's not mentioned much nowadays, some of the older background material relates how the Chaos Legions hate themselves for what they've become, but because they're twisted by chaos they blame the Imperium for letting it happen to them.

[GolemsVoice]

This is even more extreme with Grey Knights - even though much less people play those, the number of minis surely outnumbers the "real" Grey Knights by orders of magnitude. Heck, just a single Grey Knight army organization plan - 3 Elites, 6 Troops, 3 Fast Attack, 3 Heavy Support, an army that could be owned and played by a single player, can theoretically field just about half of all the psycannons that officially exist in the WH40k universe, and have more Purifiers than exist in the entire chapter most of the time!

That is a fact that never fails to amuse me. I actually feel terrible sometimes when playing DoW I or II. Dreadnought down? Why, build another. Or two! Those got shot down? We have reserves!

I mean, I bet it is rare for Space Marines to die during an engagement, especially with an inferior foe, but in the game, they die in the masses.

[IthilanorStPete]

Short answer: Yes.
Long answer:


Given that that last weapon fits the anathame's description, yes. Fulgrim had three swords.

Ah, ok; I didn't remember that bit. Thanks for the info!

(Also, now I'm imagining Fulgrim psychically wielding all three swords, like Kreia at the end of KotOR II)

[Squark]

That is a fact that never fails to amuse me. I actually feel terrible sometimes when playing DoW I or II. Dreadnought down? Why, build another. Or two! Those got shot down? We have reserves!

I mean, I bet it is rare for Space Marines to die during an engagement, especially with an inferior foe, but in the game, they die in the masses.

I suspect most of the engagements we play during the game represent the very worst fighting (apart from a few huge campaigns that it would be difficult to get enough models for, and then you'd need the space to do it) a space marine experiences.

Actually, what do Space Marines do when they're not fighting hive fleets, traitor marines, or some of the nastier xenos species (Eldar of both varieties, Necrons and the Tau are starting to become more recognized threats)?

[Zorg]

(Also, now I'm imagining Fulgrim psychically wielding all three swords, like Kreia at the end of KotOR II)

Given his miniature for epic was weilding three swords (http://www.solegends.com/citcat9x3/c92407epicdaemons-01.htm)...


Actually, what do Space Marines do when they're not fighting hive fleets, traitor marines, or some of the nastier xenos species (Eldar of both varieties, Necrons and the Tau are starting to become more recognized threats)?


Train. Then train some more. And maybe a bit more training.

Though it depends on the Chapter. Space Marine, though only semi-canon, is probably the only novel that really deals with (non-Wolf) Marine downtime. The Imperial Fists pray, fight honour duels, scrimshaw bones, study in the library and even seem to just 'hang around' at times.
Salamanders go amongst their local populace and train at the anvil.
Blood Angels do artificing type stuff - creating uber buff chestplates and such like.
Space Wolves party, tell tall tales and stay up late braiding each others' hair and talking about which Chapter Master is the hunkiest (Azreal's so dark and brooding! No, Calgar's way more buff! Well I think Dante's just hte cutest!) beards.
Iron Hands presumably do tech related things for amusement.
Ultramarines stand in front of the mirror and flex while telling themselves how awesome they are and that everyone else is just jealous.
Dark Angels brood and skulk in the shadows.
Lamenters write terrible, depressing poetry.
(some of the last ones may not be canon).

Also, exclusive Black Library limited edition about Chaplain Cassius - Catachisms of Hate (http://www.blacklibrary.com/Warhammer-40000/catechism-of-hate.html). Poor Gav, having to number and sign 1,500 copies. I'd reckon they'd be pretty wobbly signatures towards the end of it.

[Brother Oni]

The problem is the time between the horus heresy and the point where a lost chapter showing up gets plausible. I'd assume that for quite a while after the second founding every chapters heritage was well documented so we are talking third founding on the earliest and lexicanum puts that at the start of M32 (http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Founding#.TuIJrLJC-JI), a thousand years after the second founding. A thousand years in which they have to stay hidden. The blood ravens own histories start in M37, seven thousand years after the Heresy. Thats a lot of time to fill.

Imagine this, for seven thousand years:
time M34.532
+++Sender: the Battle Barge Litany of Fury Emperors Aquila+++
Space marine: Hail, governor! we are the who are we this time again? we are the Eagle warriors! We have come to your planet for recruitment!
Governor: Welcome honoured brothers! Pray tell, what brings you to this humble planet? I thought the eagle warriors are three sectors away?
Space marine: they are? well crap Uhm it was a warpstorm. Yeah, the warp did it. So please just let us recruit some of your psykers and we will be off again.

And not one Inquisitor catching up.

Suppose they recruited exclusively from feral or pre-Industrial age worlds where there's no global government or overall Governor in charge. All they'd have to do is roll up, call themselves Angels of the Emperor and recruit any who want to join.

As noted in one of the argument posts, most citizens would jump at the chance given the mythology of the Emperor and the Astartes.

As for recruiting psykers exclusively, it could well be that the selection process is biased towards psykers (whether by accident or design) or the BR geneeseed has a habit of awakening latent talents, so they just end up with a higher proportion of psykers in their numbers.

Either way, by keeping a low profile, the average inquisitor isn't going to investigate every occasion of an unidentified Astartes chapter recruiting on the fringes of Imperial space. The aforementioned Space Sharks weren't 'discovered' until M41, even though rumours suggest they existed in M32.

With regards to the gaps in their history, many of the less famous chapters have missing sections or unknown foundings, either from war, accident or simple neglect. Not every Chapter is as scrupulous as the Ultramarines or their successor chapters in maintaining their history.



Actually, what do Space Marines do when they're not fighting hive fleets, traitor marines, or some of the nastier xenos species (Eldar of both varieties, Necrons and the Tau are starting to become more recognized threats)?

As Zorg says, it depends on their chapter. The Lexicanum has a small page on their daily rituals:




0400 - Morning Prayer - Led by the Company Chaplain, the Space Marines renew their oaths to the Emperor and the company relics are displayed. This time is also used to give out orders, announcements and other administrative tasks.

0500 - Morning Firing Rites - The Space Marines engage in target practice with their personal and squad weaponry, awards and punishments are dispensed for consistently good or poor accuracy respectively.

0700 - Battle Practice - Generally this is close quarters oriented, however live fire or hazardous environment training may be done instead (or as well).

1200 - Midday Prayer - In addition to prayer any injured Space Marines can report to the Apothecary.

1300 - Midday Meal - Normally local wildlife killed during the morning activities.

1315 - Tactical Indoctrination - This can take many forms, from information on a new alien species or technology to strategy. A debrief of the morning's battle is common as well.

1500 - Battle Practice - This focuses more on combined tactics in conjunction with vehicles, Dreadnoughts and devastator squads and normally includes a trial of a new tactic introduced during the tactical indoctrination.

2000 - Evening Prayer - In addition to prayer, gene-seed testing may occur at this point.

2100 - Evening Meal - A feast (by normal human standards) is provided by the Chapter serfs, and some Chapter Masters may allow alcohol to be consumed.

2130 - Night Firing Exercises - If the chapter is based on a planet where there is no perceptible night or they are based on a fleet, firing exercises are under taken in exotic environments such as underwater, through dense fog or smoke or in zero gravity.

2315 - Maintenance Rituals - Each Space Marine is expected to maintain his own power armour and weapons, and it is often checked by the Chapter's Techmarines.

2345 - Free Time - Space Marines are permitted this time to reflect upon their duty to The Emperor, however many Chapter Masters regard free time as a frivolous waste, and a dangerous distraction in the extreme.

0000 - Rest Period - Space Marines are allocated 4 hours in which to sleep.


However, I believe this routine is only applicable to a normal battle brother at headquarters or training facility (not to those on patrol duty in ships) and officers (including non-comms) would spend more time in tactical study and intelligence assessments from the surrounding areas.

[Tychris1]

Huh, space marines actually get free time. Wonder what the Chaos Space marines do when they're not rampaging/torturing slaves.

Death Guard hop on a scale and frown
Night Lords hide in their rooms, turn off the lights, and act like Batman
Thousand Son's read books and try to stop their heads from exploding
Alpha Legion sit around a table and play RISK all day
World Eaters pound their heads against each other and scream
Iron Warriors assemble card board box forts and sit in them
Word Bearer's summon daemons for the lulz
Emperor's Children listen to music and pass a bong around
Son's of Horus compete with Ultramarines on who's awesomer

[deuterio12]

Angron - turned crazy by non-Imperial slave owners. Ignored orders to not put the red nails in his men, turning a lot of them crazy.

Wrong, he still had some shreds of sanity and decency. It's when the emperor arrives and separates him from his companions and then makes him watch as they're butchered that he completely loses it.



Mortarion - Raised by alien (possibly Dark Eldar), which doesn't help, he was betrayed by Typhus who was corrupt from the get-go.

I'll admit I don't know a lot about that one so I'll trust your word.



Magnus - Made deal with Tzeentch before he met the Emperor, fall came due to his breaking of the Emperor's laws.

He broke it because the Emperor needed to be warned. The emperor then thanked him by unleashing Russ on Magnus, thus forcing him to completely turn to chaos or turn in furry food.




Lorgar - Corrupted by Erebus, who never renounced the Chaos worship he had before the Emperor arrived. Also thought he was putting humanity on the path to true enlightenment.

Not really. Lorgar started worshiping the emperor. The emperor rejected that kind of behaviour and claimed there was no such thing as gods (aka a blatant lie). Lorgar then goes to find out that there are indeed gods, and they want to be worshiped, and thus the IoM is being built in lies.



Alpharius - did what he thought was right to stop Chaos in the long run.

The road to hell the warp is filled with good intentions. Joining the side with daemon weapons and daemons however wasn't exactly a very smart choice if you want to fight against chaos.



Fulgrim - hubris combined with naiveté, plain and simple. When he realised he was out of his depth and had made a terrible mistake, a Daemon posessed him.

He also only got that daemonic sword because he insisted on fully exterminating other race just for the evulz, so he never had any traces of good on him.



Horus - was an idiot who was tricked by Chaos and betrayed by his own men into creating the horrible edifice of the modern day Imperium through destroying the works of the Crusade.

Yet the Emperor picked him anyway as the warmaster.:smallamused:

Lo and behold, the first Commander Incopentus in the IoM's history! The emperor is guilty of seting this dangerous standard for the IoM of not bothering to check if the people you're puting in charge are idiots and/or easily trickeable.



The only ones the Imperium could be faulted for (and then only in part) are Curze for being forced into the role of bogeyman given his already damaged psyche from landing in Gotham City a non-Imperial crapsack world.

Fully IoM fault. Curze was actualy doing a fine job of turning that world in a better place, then when he leaves whatever administration forces that were left behind let it get to the old ways.



The other is Peturabo, who basically threw a temper tantrum because he didn't like guard duty and lost it completely when his world rebelled.
Neither of those really have to do with corruption either, just the Primarchs rebelling against their assigned roles.

Most of the traitors turned traitor due to petty jealousies with each other played upon by the corrupted legionnaires, or due to misunderstanding or underestimating chaos (Lorgar and Magnus respectively).
Many of them did things despite the Emperor specifically saying "do not do this thing", which really didn't help matters (Angron, Lorgar, Magnus).

Yet the emperor was completely random on how to deal with those issues:

-Angron performing lobotomies on his troops turning them into bloodthirsty monsters? Let it slide for emperor knows how much time.

-Magnus tries to warn him of his brother's treacheries with magic? Unleash the furry hordes on him!



The lack of understanding of the role of chaos is pretty fundamental, as most of the traitors don't even realise they're working for the Chaos gods until much later. For instance in the end of Nemesis a huge sacrifice is performed with the victims arranged in an eight-pointed star. Some of the watching Sons of Horus don't understand why they're doing it, and are troubled by it.

Lorgar is horrified by what happens to Fulgrim when he discovers the truth, as he thinks the warp powers just want to party
(Aurelian).
Magnus thinks he's smarter than Tzeentch, making a deal he comes to regret after breaking the Emperor's laws (A Thousand Sons).

Please remind me, how exactly is they not knowing what they're doing, and yet doing it anyway, a better thing?



The Emperor himself is guilty of this too, thinking that supressing the knowledge of the warp powers would be enough to stop them - but then again he has to be or the whole story would break down.

And now we've hit the critical point. The history only works if the emperor seriously believes "If I close everybody eyes and ears, chaos can't hurt us!".

And the emperor is the central point of the IoM. Which brings us to



Except their corruption had nothing to do with the Imperium, at least not the Imperium as an institution:

For all effects, the IoM is the emperor. His orders were and are still absolute (if you claim you hear his voice, then you're given high positions instead of being thrown in the loony house). Thus all of the emperor's faults end up reflecting in the IoM. His errors back then echo trough 10.000 years.



Though it's not mentioned much nowadays, some of the older background material relates how the Chaos Legions hate themselves for what they've become, but because they're twisted by chaos they blame the Imperium for letting it happen to them.

And they're actualy right for it. Many of them were put in positions where chaos was indeed the only answer (Lorgar wanted something to worship, Magnus had no other way to try to warn the emperor, Angrom wanted revenge, etc).

[iyaerP]

And now we've hit the critical point. The history only works if the emperor seriously believes "If I close everybody eyes and ears, chaos can't hurt us!".

No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, NO, NO, NO, NO! :smallfurious:


Every one of your posts to date in this thread has been uniformed and trollish, but the willful ignorance and blatent ignoring of canon in this statement is absurd to the point of incredulity. Your post history as a whole is a fractal of wrongness, but I will address only this one point so as not to go overboard on a rant of mythic proportions.

The Emperor was working to kill the chaos gods, and actually doing a pretty good job of it. The chaos gods are fed primarily by two things: the emotions of sentient beings, and active worship. The second one being the key one that feeds them more, as the levels of emotion required to feed them substantially is orders of magnitudes greater compared to how much outright worship does.

Given that chaos gods/deamons in general, and tzeench and his ones in particular have a history of disguising themselves as religious figures in order to syphon off worship for their own empowerment, the emperor was stamping out relegion specifically to deny the chaos gods this source of food, and also to calm the warp. This plan of his was working. Know how we know this? 30K ships didn't require a giant psychic warp lighthouse navigate around the galaxy. Navigation in the "present" without the light of astronomicon is almost impossible.

So when the Emperor went after their food sources, the chaos gods had to fight back before they got starved out completely. The fact that they were able to do so doesn't make the Emperor's plan stupid, or even invalid. Especially since it was working. He just happened to be the single worst father ever, and so his sons didn't turn out too well, and were easily corruptable by chaos.

[Squark]

And now we've hit the critical point. The history only works if the emperor seriously believes "If I close everybody eyes and ears, chaos can't hurt us!".

Hey, if it's stupid and it works, it ain't stupid.

There's some debate over whether this was the best course of action. However, there's no question that it was what the Emperor thought was the best choice. And if he was wrong, that's due to a misunderstanding of how the warp works. And just because a scientist is operating on a misunderstanding is no reason to call them an idiot.

[Zorg]

Wrong, he still had some shreds of sanity and decency. It's when the emperor arrives and separates him from his companions and then makes him watch as they're butchered that he completely loses it.

Hardly the fault of the Adeptus Terra either way - and a pretty poor reason for deciding to join in with the extermination/enslavement of the human race.




He broke it because the Emperor needed to be warned. The emperor then thanked him by unleashing Russ on Magnus, thus forcing him to completely turn to chaos or turn in furry food.

Except, as Outcast Dead lays out, the Emperor already knew. A Thousand Sons also portrays Magnus' idea as wanting to prove that sorcery can be useful (and his being a puppet for Tzeentch the whole time after their deal).
Magnus also ignored Russ' pleas to surrender, and willingly accepted his punishment (in fact exacerbating the punishment by ignoring Russ, who was willing to simply bring him in to Terra unharmed [Prospero Burns]) as he believed he deserved it for breaking his father's wishes. He only took the out offered by Tzeentch when he couldn't bear seeing his sons slaughtered anymore.



Not really. Lorgar started worshiping the emperor. The emperor rejected that kind of behaviour and claimed there was no such thing as gods (aka a blatant lie). Lorgar then goes to find out that there are indeed gods, and they want to be worshiped, and thus the IoM is being built in lies.

Thus he decides to destroy humanity. If Kor Phaeron and Erebus hadn't been going around worshipping the chaos gods Lorgar wouldn't have had them whispering in his ear (or if Lorgar told them to bugger off, or questioned the Emperor on this new information). Lorgar sided with the gods, not because he had some pathalogical desire to give worship, but because the gods told him they sought to meld humans with warp powers into single perfect beings. He saw this as the end result of worship, achieving a higher plain of existence.
This is, of course, completely wrong (i.e. an outright lie) as a very select few acheive daemon prince status, and most are consumed or destroyed.

Note that at no point does he question "hey, maybe there's a reason dad never told me about this?", or go and ask the Emperor why he lied.



The road to hell the warp is filled with good intentions. Joining the side with daemon weapons and daemons however wasn't exactly a very smart choice if you want to fight against chaos.

The plan was that if Horus won he'd end up exterminating humanity and starve the chaos gods of mankind's power, killing them permanently.



Yet the Emperor picked him anyway as the warmaster.:smallamused

:Lo and behold, the first Commander Incopentus in the IoM's history! The emperor is guilty of seting this dangerous standard for the IoM of not bothering to check if the people you're puting in charge are idiots and/or easily trickeable.

The issue is that up until that point Horus has been shown to be super intelligent, cunning and wise - his fall really makes no sense in character as presented by the novels.
It's adaption decay from the 20 odd years of the story. In the first version of the Heresy tale Horus was simply a man, the greatest general of humanity, who was straight up posessed by a warp entity.
If HH series Horus was posessed his turn to evil, while boring, would make sense. As is he gets one wobbly vision after getting stabbed and decides to believe it over every other piece of evidence he has.

I'd call that the writers having to force the plot to fit the background rather than any sinister foreshadowing of the future of the Imperium or incompetence on the Emperor's part. We are, after all, told explicitly that Horus is the greatest commander in the Galaxy - master of war, philosppher of tactics, leader of men.
It is presented as an undeniable fact backed up by his litany of successes. Horus was put in charge because he was quite literally made to be the perfect commander. His fall, as written, is the weakest of any of the Primarchs and shows that it was quite early in the series when they'd not finalised a lot of the tone and feel of the series. Compare the suddenness of Horus' heel turn to Magnus', which only comes at the very end of A Thosand Sons and isn't really a turn at all, or to Lorgar's which is very nuanced and spread across several books.



Fully IoM fault. Curze was actualy doing a fine job of turning that world in a better place, then when he leaves whatever administration forces that were left behind let it get to the old ways.

If by 'fine job' you mean murdering everyone he feels is wrong, and terrorising the population into submission (pre-Emperor). Weren't you complaining about the Imperium doing that sort of thing in the 41st millenium?
He didn't institute any real societal or political changes, he just terrorised everyone until they behaved and then left - I'm hardly surprised the planet went back to the crapper.
Also note that his solution was not to re-pacify the planet, but to blow it up. I guess that's the Imperium's fault for giving him weapons that powerful, right?



Yet the emperor was completely random on how to deal with those issues:

-Angron performing lobotomies on his troops turning them into bloodthirsty monsters? Let it slide for emperor knows how much time.

-Magnus tries to warn him of his brother's treacheries with magic? Unleash the furry hordes on him!

It's not a lobotomy, and some of the background material says the Emperor was going to censure the World Eaters (and Night Lords) for their ever mroe extreme actions, but they rebelled first.
Magnus I've already covered.



Please remind me, how exactly is they not knowing what they're doing, and yet doing it anyway, a better thing?

I'm not saying it is - I'm saying it's worse and the perpetrators are culpable as they didn't think "hmm... maybe I should ask the Emperor, who obviously knows more about this stuff than he's saying, what he thinks of these visions/premenitions/ideas rather than just doing it anyway?"



And now we've hit the critical point. The history only works if the emperor seriously believes "If I close everybody eyes and ears, chaos can't hurt us!".

And it could've - Alpharius' plan was the same thing except everybody dies instead of everybody just forgetting about Chaos. Religions can be wiped out, as can history, by supressing it thorougly enough - it's one of the main themes of the Heresy books even!



And the emperor is the central point of the IoM. Which brings us to

For all effects, the IoM is the emperor. His orders were and are still absolute (if you claim you hear his voice, then you're given high positions instead of being thrown in the loony house). Thus all of the emperor's faults end up reflecting in the IoM. His errors back then echo trough 10.000 years.

You're arging about the culpability of the Imperium for the fall of the Primarchs using both the pre-and post Heresy governmental systems? I know time flows differently in the warp but come on, that's a real stretch.

The Primarchs were not bound by the Adeptus Terra, which hadn't fully formed by the time the Heresy broke out, and were operating as military commanders. They conquered worlds and carried the banner of Terra to the stars, the administration of the worlds after they left completely independant of them (one of the things Lorgar got wrong).
The Emperor ordered them to do and not do certain things. One common thing the traitors almost all have is that they did not do or did anyway these things.
The faults of the 'modern' Imperium are mostly things the Emperor was against - his worship, superstition, dogma. In Outcast Dead an Astropath has visions of the 40k universe, and is so horrified by what he sees compared to waht they're working towards, he kills himself.

So if the traitors hadn't turned, the Imperium would still be lead by the Emperor, had access to the webway, a complete STC system, have little need for Inquisitors, and be generally a pretty cool place to be.



And they're actualy right for it. Many of them were put in positions where chaos was indeed the only answer (Lorgar wanted something to worship, Magnus had no other way to try to warn the emperor, Angrom wanted revenge, etc).

In the case of Lorgar, lacking something is no reason to taking the absolute worst possible alternative. Wish you had a girlfriend? Have some heroin! Your boss told you off and made you do a job you don't like? Kill him and all your co-workers!
When those things happen in real life it is a tradgedy, and the person involved is either seen as a victim of those who manipulated them or an insane monster.

Magnus didn't need to warn the Emperor, he already knew. Furthermore Magnus acknowledged that he did was a terrible, unforgivable mistake and the Emperor was right all along.

Angron was angry his fellows were left to die - of course he's right to decide to worship the god of bloodshed and seek to murder ever living thing in the galaxy!

There of course existed Option C, (A being do as they're told, B being turn to evil) which none of them explored - talk to the Emperor about these things. But, I suppose that's the Imperium's fault too :smallsigh:

[GolemsVoice]

For all effects, the IoM is the emperor. His orders were and are still absolute (if you claim you hear his voice, then you're given high positions instead of being thrown in the loony house).

And it's not like you can just say "Hey, the Emperor told me to say this, so you CANNOT question it." There are entire branches within both the Inquisition AND the Ministorum devoted to verifying such things, and exterminating any who are discovered to lie. This is a wobbly thing, of course, since there is little way of proving or disproving faith safe for obvious miracles (which DO happen, but even then, they're questioned, just like in modern religions).

[Zorg]

As a side topic, does anyone have any ideas for new stories in the 41st millenium?

By that I mean non-war related stuff: sports page, buisiness news etc.

For my upcoming Rogue Trader RPG I'll be running I'm going to be making a fake newspaper, the Koronus Gazetter, which will have some info pertaining to adventure hooks, as well as gossip and suchlike. For instance the 'first issue' will be have the headline about the Emperor's Bounty and her crew being declared officially Lost to the Warp, and that it is now free salvage (obvious first plot). The back page is Rogue Tradin', a gossip mag type run detailing rumours and scandals the characters' contemporaries are getting up to. I'll also put things in like advertisements of merchants and whatnot.

For instance one plot hook is a merchant being hugely overstocked with bolters... but they're all crap and he doesn't have ammo. The one guy who has ammo is charging ridiculous prices. The two cooked up a deal to produce knock-off bolters on the cheap and gouge the price of shells, working the margins to make a huge profit.
This will simply be an advertisement that merchant X has bolters! Bolters! Bolters!

I'm using the standard setting of the Koronus Expanse bordering the Calixis sector. I'm just looking for some ideas for filler or minor side plots mostly (humourous is fine too - "Silent prayer of Chanting? Which is more effective?" etc).

[Squark]

As a side topic, does anyone have any ideas for new stories in the 41st millenium?

By that I mean non-war related stuff: sports page, buisiness news etc.

For my upcoming Rogue Trader RPG I'll be running I'm going to be making a fake newspaper, the Koronus Gazetter, which will have some info pertaining to adventure hooks, as well as gossip and suchlike. For instance the 'first issue' will be have the headline about the Emperor's Bounty and her crew being declared officially Lost to the Warp, and that it is now free salvage (obvious first plot). The back page is Rogue Tradin', a gossip mag type run detailing rumours and scandals the characters' contemporaries are getting up to. I'll also put things in like advertisements of merchants and whatnot.

For instance one plot hook is a merchant being hugely overstocked with bolters... but they're all crap and he doesn't have ammo. The one guy who has ammo is charging ridiculous prices. The two cooked up a deal to produce knock-off bolters on the cheap and gouge the price of shells, working the margins to make a huge profit.
This will simply be an advertisement that merchant X has bolters! Bolters! Bolters!

I'm using the standard setting of the Koronus Expanse bordering the Calixis sector. I'm just looking for some ideas for filler or minor side plots mostly (humourous is fine too - "Silent prayer of Chanting? Which is more effective?" etc).

There are large numbers of bolters on the black market? I thought they were so finicky without daily maintenance (one of the reasons the IG doesn't use them for foot soldiers is that regular guardsman don't get the training they need to maintain them).


But I digress.

Anyway, Ciaphas Cain makes reference to Scrumball (some sort of rugby like game, judging by his description of the violence in the game), and there was apparently some sort of inter-planetary league of some kind.

[GolemsVoice]

For my upcoming Rogue Trader RPG I'll be running I'm going to be making a fake newspaper, the Koronus Gazetter, which will have some info pertaining to adventure hooks, as well as gossip and suchlike. For instance the 'first issue' will be have the headline about the Emperor's Bounty and her crew being declared officially Lost to the Warp, and that it is now free salvage (obvious first plot). The back page is Rogue Tradin', a gossip mag type run detailing rumours and scandals the characters' contemporaries are getting up to. I'll also put things in like advertisements of merchants and whatnot.

I guess you can find a myriad of sports, and associated leagues and cups or whatnot on every world and in every sector. Bloodsport seems to be prevalent, and you could fill a page with betting tips, biographies and assessments of gladiators and news of fabulous new beasts which are going to see action the next month, so that bettors and fans can inform themselves about their favourite gladiators.

But I guess they wouldn't mention the Warp specifically, rather going for euphemisms like "lost in the void" or something.

And finally, a humorous story, with serious implications if you want it:

a high Ministorum priest, Father Helgond, was found robbed of his possesions and obviously drunk and full of substances in the sewers of some hive's underbelly, near a hotel/tavern/brothel frequented by traders and merchants of all sorts (and he can call himself lucky that the Arbites found him first!). The shocking fact is that Father Helgond was one of the world's most zealous preacher against the evils of Rogue Traders and the filth and corruption they bring with them, frequently naming individuals, or cursing sind and vice and all who engage in it.
Now, Father Helgond claims that he was investigating an evil cult bent on enslaving hapless patrons with their promises of forbidden lusts, which, giventhe establishment he was investiagating, isn't exactly impossible. Understandably, most Rogue Traders and others who have had the pleasure of being object of the good father's rages use this opportunity to mock and ridicule him. But what if it's true?

[Brother Oni]

Sports is always good filler - maybe take a Let's Play of a sports game campaign (bonus points if it's Blood Bowl) and write it in a shorter sports journalist style?

From the more advanced planets, socialite gossip is always good, as would be the latest traffic/pirate reports.

On less advanced ones, maybe news of bumper/poor harvests or new mineral resources found, giving rise to business opportunities/hooks.

On the more humorous side, you could do a column of Techpriest Aeolus' technical guide for laymen (substitute various Dilbert strips, re-flavoured for 40K and add more incense and candles).

Sister Kalama's (of the Adeptus Sororitas Order Hospitaller) agony column?


But what if it's true?

Bonus GrimDark points if the good Father has stumbled on a genestealer coven and is now infected. You could do a couple story sections of the Father's spectacular fall from grace and subsequent retirement into seclusion, then his coming back with a new reformed cult of the Emperor, with a message of the sinful to redeem themselves in the Emperor's light (the Father should know, right?) and has an amazing conversion rate of new followers.
Let the story sit for a while, then make mention of the new civil war on the planet and a bit later, the subsequent discovery of a genestealer infestation (which the players can either join in on the shooting, help supply Imperial forces, or steer well clear).

[Squark]

Bonus GrimDark points if the good Father has stumbled on a genestealer coven and is now infected. You could do a couple story sections of the Father's spectacular fall from grace and subsequent retirement into seclusion, then his coming back with a new reformed cult of the Emperor, with a message of the sinful to redeem themselves in the Emperor's light (the Father should know, right?) and has an amazing conversion rate of new followers.
Let the story sit for a while, then make mention of the new civil war on the planet and a bit later, the subsequent discovery of a genestealer infestation (which the players can either join in on the shooting, help supply Imperial forces, or steer well clear).

Nice one. Genestealer infestations are always fun.

Hmm... Do the 40k rulebooks have rules for the players getting infected? Now, for novices, you'd probably have to just kill the character, but if someone's a good enough role-player... Could make for an interesting story...

[Trixie]

There are large numbers of bolters on the black market? I thought they were so finicky without daily maintenance (one of the reasons the IG doesn't use them for foot soldiers is that regular guardsman don't get the training they need to maintain them).

Actually, a lot of IG officers in Cain series seems to use bolt weapons, not to mention covers of books in said series... :smalltongue:


He broke it because the Emperor needed to be warned. The emperor then thanked him by unleashing Russ on Magnus, thus forcing him to completely turn to chaos or turn in furry food.

What you miss, is that the Magnus almost turned Terra into a daemon world, yet was only supposed to be brought back for questioning. How is that evil, exactly? :smallconfused:

Also, he could, I don't know, take the message with him on a ship? He had plenty of time.


Not really. Lorgar started worshiping the emperor. The emperor rejected that kind of behaviour and claimed there was no such thing as gods (aka a blatant lie). Lorgar then goes to find out that there are indeed gods, and they want to be worshiped, and thus the IoM is being built in lies.

And that warrants mass genocide how exactly? :smallconfused:

Not to mention the fact of them being "gods" is also a lie.


He also only got that daemonic sword because he insisted on fully exterminating other race just for the evulz, so he never had any traces of good on him.

You mean the race that was so completely gone to chaos they all had warp mutations? :smallconfused:

It's like arguing unit of soldiers shooting mob of suicide bombers approaching them is evil.


-Magnus tries to warn him of his brother's treacheries with magic? Unleash the furry hordes on him!

The kind of magic that was expressly forbidden due to dangers it brings? :smallconfused:

What he did is warning President about alien invasion by dropping fully armed atomic bomb on Washington D.C. forcing defenders to divert all their forces to locate and disarm it instead of fighting aliens.


For all effects, the IoM is the emperor. His orders were and are still absolute (if you claim you hear his voice, then you're given high positions instead of being thrown in the loony house). Thus all of the emperor's faults end up reflecting in the IoM. His errors back then echo trough 10.000 years.

A) He hated all these things; B) If you would claim the above, better pray you won't come across Ecclesiarchy or Hereticus, as such claim will meet with business end of combi-flamer rather quickly.


And they're actualy right for it. Many of them were put in positions where chaos was indeed the only answer (Lorgar wanted something to worship, Magnus had no other way to try to warn the emperor, Angrom wanted revenge, etc).

Gee, I'd advice them to take knitting instead :P

[deuterio12]

Hardly the fault of the Adeptus Terra either way - and a pretty poor reason for deciding to join in with the extermination/enslavement of the human race.

His whole legion just stood there watching as Angrom's companions were butchered. What do you think that teached the primarch? First impressions are quite important.



Except, as Outcast Dead lays out, the Emperor already knew.

I've seen that claim here and there, but honestly, it simply doesn't make any sense. If the emperor knew Horus was a traitor, why did he leave him around still giving orders (like telling the furries to kill Magnus instead of capturing him)?




A Thousand Sons also portrays Magnus' idea as wanting to prove that sorcery can be useful (and his being a puppet for Tzeentch the whole time after their deal).
Magnus also ignored Russ' pleas to surrender, and willingly accepted his punishment (in fact exacerbating the punishment by ignoring Russ, who was willing to simply bring him in to Terra unharmed [Prospero Burns]) as he believed he deserved it for breaking his father's wishes. He only took the out offered by Tzeentch when he couldn't bear seeing his sons slaughtered anymore.

As already pointed out Russ had orders to kill from corrupted Horus, so I don't see how he could be asking for surrender. It doesn't say anything about that here (http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Magnus_the_Red), and it doesn't fit either with the rest of your quote. So Russ is willing to butcher the thousand sons to the last man, but Magnus gets the chance to come unharmed? Shouldn't this the time Magnus goes "Do what you want with me, but spare my subordinates!".

It just doesn't make much sense that Magnus is in one moment "All my legion and world must die in bloody battle"(he could've just nuked his own planet, an IoM classic) and the next he goes "Save me Tzenceth I'll do whatever you want!".



Thus he decides to destroy humanity. If Kor Phaeron and Erebus hadn't been going around worshipping the chaos gods Lorgar wouldn't have had them whispering in his ear (or if Lorgar told them to bugger off, or questioned the Emperor on this new information). Lorgar sided with the gods, not because he had some pathalogical desire to give worship, but because the gods told him they sought to meld humans with warp powers into single perfect beings. He saw this as the end result of worship, achieving a higher plain of existence.

Well, last time I checked people never performed worship just for the sake of it. They worship because they believe it will bring them some sort of good/advantage. Lorgar believed worship was a powerful tool, and its quite ironic his works ended up being used to create the IoM's own religion.




Note that at no point does he question "hey, maybe there's a reason dad never told me about this?", or go and ask the Emperor why he lied.

Last time I checked, the Emperor was never amused for being questioned in any kind of matter, neither was the kind of person to explain his actions. He's more the kind of "I'm gonna seal myself on my lab, not telling you what I'll be working in, and you're all forbidden from interrupting me".




The plan was that if Horus won he'd end up exterminating humanity and starve the chaos gods of mankind's power, killing them permanently.

Not a very good plan, since the chaos gods do feed on other races. Slanesh was spawned by the eldar and everything.



The issue is that up until that point Horus has been shown to be super intelligent, cunning and wise - his fall really makes no sense in character as presented by the novels.
It's adaption decay from the 20 odd years of the story. In the first version of the Heresy tale Horus was simply a man, the greatest general of humanity, who was straight up posessed by a warp entity.
If HH series Horus was posessed his turn to evil, while boring, would make sense. As is he gets one wobbly vision after getting stabbed and decides to believe it over every other piece of evidence he has.

I'd call that the writers having to force the plot to fit the background rather than any sinister foreshadowing of the future of the Imperium or incompetence on the Emperor's part. We are, after all, told explicitly that Horus is the greatest commander in the Galaxy - master of war, philosppher of tactics, leader of men.
It is presented as an undeniable fact backed up by his litany of successes. Horus was put in charge because he was quite literally made to be the perfect commander. His fall, as written, is the weakest of any of the Primarchs and shows that it was quite early in the series when they'd not finalised a lot of the tone and feel of the series. Compare the suddenness of Horus' heel turn to Magnus', which only comes at the very end of A Thosand Sons and isn't really a turn at all, or to Lorgar's which is very nuanced and spread across several books.

Indeed Horus's story hasn't aged very well. But since the most recent fluff seems to qualify as the most valid, he's now a Commander Incopentus
by betraying his father for just a vision.



If by 'fine job' you mean murdering everyone he feels is wrong, and terrorising the population into submission (pre-Emperor). Weren't you complaining about the Imperium doing that sort of thing in the 41st millenium?

Unless he had his personal bomber and went doing strafing runs on the cities, he couldn't really rack up anywhere the same kill count of your average IoM planetary government. One of his main characteristics was actually being discret. People he doesn't like show up dead, but everybody else around didn't even notice he was then, instead of dying as colateral damage.



He didn't institute any real societal or political changes, he just terrorised everyone until they behaved and then left - I'm hardly surprised the planet went back to the crapper.

He left because the emperor ordered him to do so (and we all know how good an idea is disagreeing with the emperor). He couldn't have really changed anything before whitout trustworhy loyal followers. He could've maybe done something with his legion, but hey, gotta go conquer more planets for daddy or he'll be mad (trivia, the emperor quite disliked that Lorgar took his time to make sure the conquered populations were properly subjugated before moving on).




Also note that his solution was not to re-pacify the planet, but to blow it up. I guess that's the Imperium's fault for giving him weapons that powerful, right?

You're forgeting the part where Curze had horrific visions of the future, and when he tried to talk about how he felt with the other primarchs, they all refused to help him sort out his head. Trillions of people in the IoM, not any kind of mental doctor or friendly voice to help him. Anyone suprised he ended up turning?



It's not a lobotomy, and some of the background material says the Emperor was going to censure the World Eaters (and Night Lords) for their ever mroe extreme actions, but they rebelled first.

Indeed it says that, but usually you'll want to have a good talk with your commanders/sons after the first news of something being wrong with them, not when they have already rampaged trough countless planets. He left them run wild just too much time.



Magnus I've already covered.

You still haven't covered why Cruze blowing up his own homeworld and then going into a campaign of terrior is something that can be archived to take care of later, but Magnus doing one communication spell is reason for immediate repriesal.



I'm not saying it is - I'm saying it's worse and the perpetrators are culpable as they didn't think "hmm... maybe I should ask the Emperor, who obviously knows more about this stuff than he's saying, what he thinks of these visions/premenitions/ideas rather than just doing it anyway?"

And again, the fluff points again and again that the Emperor wasn't really much for family discussions and/or mental support. He left quite clear that his orders were to be obeyed, never questioned.



And it could've - Alpharius' plan was the same thing except everybody dies instead of everybody just forgetting about Chaos. Religions can be wiped out, as can history, by supressing it thorougly enough - it's one of the main themes of the Heresy books even!

Funny since one of the main chaos themes is that Slanesh spawned from the eldar, and specially enjoys those alien souls.



You're arging about the culpability of the Imperium for the fall of the Primarchs using both the pre-and post Heresy governmental systems? I know time flows differently in the warp but come on, that's a real stretch.

The Primarchs were not bound by the Adeptus Terra, which hadn't fully formed by the time the Heresy broke out, and were operating as military commanders. They conquered worlds and carried the banner of Terra to the stars, the administration of the worlds after they left completely independant of them (one of the things Lorgar got wrong).

That last part isn't exactly true. The conquered planets were bound to pay tithes to Terra (just like 10.000 years after), the main basis of the "modern" IoM.



The Emperor ordered them to do and not do certain things. One common thing the traitors almost all have is that they did not do or did anyway these things.

Russ received orders from the emperor to bring Magnus back alive, then Horus(which, by your words, the emperor already knew of his treachery, yet let him stay as warmaster) tells Russ to ignore the emperor's orders and kill Magnus. And Russ buys it. And when the dust settles he's considered an outstanding loyalist.



The faults of the 'modern' Imperium are mostly things the Emperor was against - his worship, superstition, dogma. In Outcast Dead an Astropath has visions of the 40k universe, and is so horrified by what he sees compared to waht they're working towards, he kills himself.

So if the traitors hadn't turned, the Imperium would still be lead by the Emperor, had access to the webway, a complete STC system, have little need for Inquisitors, and be generally a pretty cool place to be.

Funny, because one of the last things the emperor did before being turned in a candle corpse was creating the Inquisition, which is described as the most powerful organization in the Imperium. Inquisitors can requisition whole IG armies, planets and even the super-pimped GK. The emperor could've left them explicit orders on that regard "Hey, guys, make sure you keep the imperium atheist and develop science". Yet the Inquisition, one of the last wills of the emperor, goes on to become one of the most horrific parts of the IoM.

Of course, if he knew the heresy was gonna happen all along, why didn't he do anything about it? Why did he send his legions into ambushes? Why did he kept Horus as warmaster instead of throwing him in a cell if he didn't felt like killing him? Somebody who's willing to let the galaxy burn just for the sake of one of his experiments can't really be a nice guy.




In the case of Lorgar, lacking something is no reason to taking the absolute worst possible alternative. Wish you had a girlfriend? Have some heroin! Your boss told you off and made you do a job you don't like? Kill him and all your co-workers!
When those things happen in real life it is a tradgedy, and the person involved is either seen as a victim of those who manipulated them or an insane monster.

In real life, if that kind of people come asking for help, they usually receive it, or at least put under heavy supervision. Specially if they happen to hold important jobs. I highly doubt if the guys tasked with the nuke launching systems started to show drug addiction symptoms or started killing their co-workers, the high brass would just turn a blind eye on it and archive it to be supervised later.



Magnus didn't need to warn the Emperor, he already knew. Furthermore Magnus acknowledged that he did was a terrible, unforgivable mistake and the Emperor was right all along.

Right? Leting the IoM burn, ignoring all the primarchs going mad, creating the Inquisition, leting Horus deceive Russ, and that was being "right"? I tremble to imagine what would've hapened if the emperor was wrong.:smalltongue:

Or, you know "Russ, I aknowledge I've wronged, now let us combine our legions to fight the traitors attacking Terra!"



Angron was angry his fellows were left to die - of course he's right to decide to worship the god of bloodshed and seek to murder ever living thing in the galaxy!

That's what the emperor taught him, by leting his companions die and then ordering Angron to go in a killing spree across the galaxy out of nowhere.



There of course existed Option C, (A being do as they're told, B being turn to evil) which none of them explored - talk to the Emperor about these things. But, I suppose that's the Imperium's fault too :smallsigh:

Again, the emperor was never much talkative. Even when he knew Horus was going to lead a mass betrayal of the IoM, he wasn't willing to seriously talk with anyone about it.

[Wraith]

Anyway, Ciaphas Cain makes reference to Scrumball (some sort of rugby like game, judging by his description of the violence in the game), and there was apparently some sort of inter-planetary league of some kind.

Harriers For The Cup! was, at one point, seriously considered as the working title for one of the 40k crunch threads :smalltongue:

But yes, it works nicely as a plot hook - someone suspects one of the local Scrumball players of using some kind of restricted drug to enhance their performance, and your Inquisitor briefly mentions that he might be interested in finding out who/what his supplier might be.

The end of the mission can be as funny (the guy is taking one of EVERY illicit drug available and hoping for the best) or as genuinely horrific (the guy is a renegade Space Marine, Daemon or dangerously unfettered Psyker in disguise) as you like. :smallbiggrin:

[Feriority]

Actually, a lot of IG officers in Cain series seems to use bolt weapons, not to mention covers of books in said series... :smalltongue:

The covers of the Cain books are basically propaganda posters. They show CAIN using a bolt pistol, even though in the books, he turns down anything higher powered than his laspistol because his experience with the laspistol makes aiming it reflexive for him. They also show him standing triumphantly among the corpses of the enemies of the Imperium, which isn't particularly Cain-like.

And Colonels and Majors having bolt pistols is rather different from the rank and file getting the same; if I remember right, they don't even show any officers below that using bolt weapons, though I might be wrong. Heavy bolters are used as support weapons, and regular bolters don't come up much, as far as I remember.

Even Cain's suicide mission squad in For the Emperor, when getting armed with better armor and weapons, only gets hellguns, not bolters. Vail uses a bolt pistol, and Cain keeps his trusty laspistol.

[Borgh]

I have to give you one thing, you do rack up the averae wordcount in this thread.
Ok, lets do this *cracks knuckles*


His whole legion just stood there watching as Angrom's companions were butchered. What do you think that teached the primarch? First impressions are quite important.


I've seen that claim here and there, but honestly, it simply doesn't make any sense. If the emperor knew Horus was a traitor, why did he leave him around still giving orders (like telling the furries to kill Magnus instead of capturing him)?
I don't know much about this part, I'll leave it it to Lord Zorg the Wise.




As already pointed out Russ had orders to kill from corrupted Horus, so I don't see how he could be asking for surrender. It doesn't say anything about that here (http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Magnus_the_Red), and it doesn't fit either with the rest of your quote. So Russ is willing to butcher the thousand sons to the last man, but Magnus gets the chance to come unharmed? Shouldn't this the time Magnus goes "Do what you want with me, but spare my subordinates!".
Because russ was not stupid and psychotic. It is just common sense that if the enemy surrenders you don't have to thow away legionaries' lives.


It just doesn't make much sense that Magnus is in one moment "All my legion and world must die in bloody battle"(he could've just nuked his own planet, an IoM classic) and the next he goes "Save me Tzenceth I'll do whatever you want!".
Do you honestly think Magnus was so suicidal he wanted his guys to die? and why would he nuke is own planet? he loved that place. For the last bit, it was a case of good ol' "OH GODS WOLVES ARE KILLING EVERYONE, WHAT DO I DO NOW?"


Well, last time I checked people never performed worship just for the sake of it. They worship because they believe it will bring them some sort of good/advantage. Lorgar believed worship was a powerful tool, and its quite ironic his works ended up being used to create the IoM's own religion.
Theology will get me (and you, be careful please) banned, not responding here.



Last time I checked, the Emperor was never amused for being questioned in any kind of matter, neither was the kind of person to explain his actions. He's more the kind of "I'm gonna seal myself on my lab, not telling you what I'll be working in, and you're all forbidden from interrupting me".
Except these guys are the Primarchs. The third to twentythird most powerfull guys in the imperium with some of the most important jobs in the galaxy.



Not a very good plan, since the chaos gods do feed on other races. Slaanesh was spawned by the eldar and everything.



Indeed Horus's story hasn't aged very well. But since the most recent fluff seems to qualify as the most valid, he's now a Commander Incopentus
by betraying his father for just a vision.
But recent fluff does not invalidate older fluff that does not clash. and in the older fluff he is the best there ever was. Furthermore, he almost killed the emperor before kicking the bucket himself. Its like saying a boxer is terrible at boxing because he hurt a knuckle pulping your face.


Unless he had his personal bomber and went doing strafing runs on the cities, he couldn't really rack up anywhere the same kill count of your average IoM planetary government. One of his main characteristics was actually being discret. People he doesn't like show up dead, but everybody else around didn't even notice he was then, instead of dying as colateral damage.
He was discreet up to the point where he revealed himself as the killing dude and ruled as a king for a while.


He left because the emperor ordered him to do so (and we all know how good an idea is disagreeing with the emperor). He couldn't have really changed anything before without trustworthy loyal followers. He could've maybe done something with his legion, but hey, gotta go conquer more planets for daddy or he'll be mad (trivia, the emperor quite disliked that Lorgar took his time to make sure the conquered populations were properly subjugated before moving on).
Thats a strawman here. There is no connection between Conrad before empy and the empy telling him to leave.



You're forgeting the part where Curze had horrific visions of the future, and when he tried to talk about how he felt with the other primarchs, they all refused to help him sort out his head. Trillions of people in the IoM, not any kind of mental doctor or friendly voice to help him. Anyone suprised he ended up turning?
This one is to blame on the old fluff. Curze is stated as having no friends so the writers coudn't have him have friends.


Indeed it says that, but usually you'll want to have a good talk with your commanders/sons after the first news of something being wrong with them, not when they have already rampaged trough countless planets. He left them run wild just too much time.
rampaging though planets is what space marines do all the time, the World Eaters were just rather enthusiastic about it. Nothing wrong with them doing their job, the emperor just did not like how far they went with it.


You still haven't covered why Cruze blowing up his own homeworld and then going into a campaign of terrior is something that can be archived to take care of later, but Magnus doing one communication spell is reason for immediate repriesal.
magnus messed with the Emperors own pet project here, the one project which would have saved the imperium forever. its the difference between Curze knocking down a shed somewhere and magnus blowing up his dads home.


And again, the fluff points again and again that the Emperor wasn't really much for family discussions and/or mental support. He left quite clear that his orders were to be obeyed, never questioned.
Strawman again, be careful with those please, they really hurt what you say. The original point was that when they heard that burning a house down is fun they went ahead and tried it where they should have asked anyone if it might be a good idea first.


Funny since one of the main chaos themes is that Slanesh spawned from the eldar, and specially enjoys those alien souls.
To slaanesh, the eldar are kaviar, humanity is potato mash.


That last part isn't exactly true. The conquered planets were bound to pay tithes to Terra (just like 10.000 years after), the main basis of the "modern" IoM.
yes, but the whole tithes idea was not created until the whole campaign was well underway.


Russ received orders from the emperor to bring Magnus back alive, then Horus(which, by your words, the emperor already knew of his treachery, yet let him stay as warmaster) tells Russ to ignore the emperor's orders and kill Magnus. And Russ buys it. And when the dust settles he's considered an outstanding loyalist.
Russ did what the emperor said, with or without Horus' involvement. He went to prospero and told Magnus to surrender. Magnus told him to shove it under his tail and everything went downhill from there.


Funny, because one of the last things the emperor did before being turned in a candle corpse was creating the Inquisition, which is described as the most powerful organization in the Imperium. Inquisitors can requisition whole IG armies, planets and even the super-pimped GK. The emperor could've left them explicit orders on that regard "Hey, guys, make sure you keep the imperium atheist and develop science". Yet the Inquisition, one of the last wills of the emperor, goes on to become one of the most horrific parts of the IoM.
By that point, mister emperor knew he had failed and was just performing damage control.


Of course, if he knew the heresy was gonna happen all along, why didn't he do anything about it? Why did he send his legions into ambushes? Why did he kept Horus as warmaster instead of throwing him in a cell if he didn't felt like killing him? Somebody who's willing to let the galaxy burn just for the sake of one of his experiments can't really be a nice guy.
he did not know all along, just for a while. IIRC The people of the Eisenstein informed him.



In real life, if that kind of people come asking for help, they usually receive it, or at least put under heavy supervision. Specially if they happen to hold important jobs. I highly doubt if the guys tasked with the nuke launching systems started to show drug addiction symptoms or started killing their co-workers, the high brass would just turn a blind eye on it and archive it to be supervised later.
Analogy
Lorgar picks his nose where the emperor just told him that picking your nose is impolite.
Emperor tells Lorgar he should not pick his nose.
Lorgar decides to do heroin and set a puppy on fire.

He could, maybe, possibly, told his dad that he likes picking his nose and that since he is not doing it in company it shouldn't hurt. To which the emperor would have responded with a explanation why picking his nose will give him terrible nosebleeds.


Right? Leting the IoM burn, ignoring all the primarchs going mad, creating the Inquisition, leting Horus deceive Russ, and that was being "right"? I tremble to imagine what would've hapened if the emperor was wrong.:smalltongue:
Right about " do not do sorcery, it is bad" not right about "everything, ever".



That's what the emperor taught him, by leting his companions die and then ordering Angron to go in a killing spree across the galaxy out of nowhere.
Warning, Zorg is being sarcastic here.



Again, the emperor was never much talkative. Even when he knew Horus was going to lead a mass betrayl of the IoM, he wasn't willing to seriously talk with anyone about it.
By the time he knew the whole thing was already snowballing out of control and you can be damn sure he tried to stop Horus (ever heard of this little event called the Dropsite Massacre? you should read about it)


I do have to say, I'm starting to enjoy your posts. They offer a different view at what we see as canon. Usually this view is easily shot down but at least we think about it.

[Zorg]

Quick one before I duck out - the Emperor knew of Horus' betrayal before Magnus' message by regular means: thousands of Astropathic communications going "OMG Horus has gone crazy and massacred half his d00dz". So Magnus' warning was unnecessary in the most basic sense and achieved nothing.
Evil Horus telling Russ to kill Magnus is gone, as the sacking of Prospero occurs roughly simultaneously with the Drop Site Massacre (I'm going by 'first hand sources' - GW books, not wikis).


Also big thanks for all those suggestions - more later :smallsmile:

[GolemsVoice]

Hmm... Do the 40k rulebooks have rules for the players getting infected? Now, for novices, you'd probably have to just kill the character, but if someone's a good enough role-player... Could make for an interesting story...

Creatures Anathema for Dark Heresy has the Genestealer, and I believe it also has rules for infection. It's not pleasant, and as far as I remember, almost certain death or turning, whichever it actually does to you.

And Deuterio12, I believe you confuse the Imperium of the 41. millenium with the Imperium of the time the Emperor was actually around, or at least treat them as the same entity. Both were radically different.

[Cheesegear]

Except, as Outcast Dead lays out, the Emperor already knew. A Thousand Sons also portrays Magnus' idea as wanting to prove that sorcery can be useful (and his being a puppet for Tzeentch the whole time after their deal).

Loads of people were telling the Emperor that Horus was bad. There's this one dude...Nathaniel Garro - the greatest Space Marine ever - he goes on a quest to tell the Emperor, and tells Dorn, who in turn tells Dad.

Rogal Dorn already told Dad that Horus had gone bad. Magnus was stupid doing it the way he did and he admitted it later on.


He only took the out offered by Tzeentch when he couldn't bear seeing his sons slaughtered anymore.

QFT. Magnus hates Tzeentch. The choice was simply "Join or die."


Note that at no point does he question "hey, maybe there's a reason dad never told me about this?", or go and ask the Emperor why he lied.

However in First Heretic, Magnus was as much help when Lorgar spoke to him. Magnus' response simply being "Calm down li'l buddy, you don't know what you're doing." And Lorgar storming away from Magnus.

In Aurelian, Lorgar seems...Not so angry at Magnus. Seeming to understand how bad Chaos is now that he's in it.


Compare the suddenness of Horus' heel turn to Magnus', which only comes at the very end of A Thosand Sons and isn't really a turn at all, or to Lorgar's which is very nuanced and spread across several books.

Fulgrim's Fall, is quite sudden. But the way in which it's told is...Wow. Far better than Horus'. Same with Alpharius'. Like Zorg, I feel that Horus' is the worst story of the lot.

If the first three books were subtitled "How Erebus ruined the Imperium from the ground level." and told that story, I'd reckon the first three 30K Novels would be great. But, instead, we see Horus have a dream and then decide to take down the Emperor.


It's not a lobotomy, and some of the background material says the Emperor was going to censure the World Eaters (and Night Lords) for their ever mroe extreme actions, but they rebelled first.

Curze was censured by Fulgrim and Dorn [The Dark King]. Actually being imprisoned on the Phalanx and being taken to Dad when he escapes the Phalanx (because he's the god-damn Batman!), nearly rips Dorn in half (Dorn wouldn't fight back), and heads back to Nostromo and when he gets there...Well that's history.


The faults of the 'modern' Imperium are mostly things the Emperor was against - his worship, superstition, dogma. In Outcast Dead an Astropath has visions of the 40k universe, and is so horrified by what he sees compared to waht they're working towards, he kills himself.

The 40K Imperium is run exactly the way Lorgar and Curze said it would be. Curze is a scary dude, when you get right down to it. Mostly because his political philosophy works so well. I could cite some real-world examples (current, even, scarily enough), but I like it here.

That aforementioned event scars Dorn for life. Curze now being the only thing in the Universe that Dorn fears. Not because Curze nearly killed him, but because Dorn figures out what Curze is fighting for, and how many steps it would take for Dorn to become like Curze.

But, then again, Dorn is the 40K equivalent of a Paladin, but he still considers Curze's standpoint. And, I suppose if you're Dorn, the only thing in the galaxy you would be afraid of is Curze, who is the Anti-Dorn (not Horus).

[Zorg]

Here's a link to the Koronus Gazetter issue 1 (http://www.box.com/s/naycnjh2r1pbvd0t2dv3).

Big, lower quality pics:

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-T3c65aU0zk0/TuTXarEWUHI/AAAAAAAABPI/ymQWYWuyIL0/s1600/Gazetter%2B1_Page_1.jpg

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/--iZgIXecQ70/TuTXaZPmuKI/AAAAAAAABO8/n2_Ww7fqa7A/s1600/Gazetter%2B1_Page_2.jpg

It's designed to be printed out double sided and folded in half, so the first page you see is actually the back page. If you read some of the names they may seem somewhat familiar :smallbiggrin:

Thanks to all for the great suggestions, as you can see I've adopted a large number of them :smallsmile:

[Winterwind]

Looking good! I'd suggest maybe putting some typical "Thought for the day" or such on the bottom of each page - you know, all those "an open mind is like a fortress with its gates unbarred" and "blessed the mind too narrow for doubt" quotes that demonstrate so aptly what an oppressive, anti-intellectual regime the Imperium is. It would serve as a rather nice contrast to the much more "normal" newspaper and emphasize to the players that this is not just our society with more tech. :smallwink:

[The_Final_Stand]

Don't press Thariously?

[hamishspence]

It's got one- but at the top, not the bottom.

Wasn't "Praise the sun that brings the dawn of our final doom" a Tolkien quote though? Still, it fits quite well- even if lacking in the traditional Imperium attitude.

[Sila Prirode]

I must confess that I actually stole those as a future reference if I ever need to make newspapers for my D&D group.
But I would like to point out that I have a bit of a hard time making out the titles, I don't know whether is it due to resolution or font, but I have to really focus on titles to read them.

[Wraith]

If you read some of the names they may seem somewhat familiar :smallbiggrin:

"Raithe Scrack", indeed? :smalltongue:

Very, very good work Zorg. It's been a very long time since I've wanted to play in an RP game as much as this one, after seeing that. :smallsmile:

[Brother Oni]

Don't press Thariously?

I'm guessing it's "Don't press that seriously', but there's a couple typos in it (either that or I'm transcribing it incorrectly). :smallbiggrin:

Very nice indeed, Zorg.

Edit: I'm guessing Janrak Spargan is descended from a legendary pirate who sailed the old Terra Caribbean sea, and is that Battle Angel Alita and Miss Fortune from League of Legends for Gilma Locsin and Lady Orelans respectively? :smallbiggrin:

Oh and an idea for the next bit of techspeak: 01001000 0110000 1011101 1001100 1010010 0000011 1100101 1011110 1110101 0010000 0011101 0001110 0100110 1001011 0010101 1001000 0100000 0111010 0011101 0101110 0100110 1110011 0100101 1011100 1100111 0010000 0011010 0101110 1000010 0000011 01111011 0011001 1001100 0100000 0111010 0011010 0001100 1010110 1110001 0000001 1011110 1101110 0010000 0011000 0101100 1110110 0001011 0100101 1011100 0111111

[GolemsVoice]

Very nice, good work! Keep them coming when you make new issues for your players. I think I'll supply another story tommorrow, if you like it?

[Haruspex_Pariah]

I have a question about the Codex Astartes and the Second Founding.

Did Guilliman force his brothers to adopt the Codex? And did he write it alone?

The fact that the Chapters are supposed to be independent makes it a bit hard for me to follow. You have a guide on how to run a chapter (written by a Primarch no less), but no practical means of enforcement. It's just up to each Chapter how seriously they want to take it. What was the point then, other than to annoy Dorn?

[Winterwind]

I have a question about the Codex Astartes and the Second Founding.

Did Guilliman force his brothers to adopt the Codex? And did he write it alone?

The fact that the Chapters are supposed to be independent makes it a bit hard for me to follow. You have a guide on how to run a chapter (written by a Primarch no less), but no practical means of enforcement. It's just up to each Chapter how seriously they want to take it. What was the point then, other than to annoy Dorn?You have to consider at what time and in what circumstances it was written.

It was right after the Horus Heresy, after the Space Marine Legions had been traumatized and dishonoured by half of them turning against them. After such an event, they had to be dealing with doubts and despair; preventing a repetition of such an event had to be pretty much the highest priority point on their agenda. The Codex was, to a large part, written to redesign the Legions into something where the Heresy couldn't repeat itself. Hence Guilliman didn't have to force them into compliance - for the most part, in their shame and desperation, they accepted the Codex quite willingly - partially, probably, as a sort of penance for having allowed the Heresy to occur. And by the time that state was over, the Codex had already ingrained itself into the Space Marine identity.

Or that's my interpretation of all of that, anyway.


Question of my own. I recently started reading Fulgrim for another time, and while doing so noticed that, on the cover, there is a depiction of a Dreadnought. I also recall that there was at least one Dreadnought featured towards the end of Galaxy in Flames.

Now, this seriously irritates me, because I'd have thought Dreadnoughts were something that came up only after the Heresy. Every codex containing Dreadnoughts keeps emphasizing how Space Marines are pretty much only interred in Dreadnoughts under the most dire circumstances, so there appears to be a serious reluctance to subject warriors to this fate. It makes sense though - after all, ever since the Heresy, Space Marines are in rather short supply for all the chapters, so preserving them in this fashion may, at times, just be necessary. The Legions though, before the Heresy and the civil war it entailed? They didn't have such a massive shortage on men - why would they have to make use of such an option?

(Also, if Dreadnoughts were always used, how come none of the Dreadnoughts from before the Heresy have survived? Bjorn the Fell-Handed is explicitly stated to be the oldest one of them all, and he didn't become a Dreadnought until long after the Heresy - one would think that if Dreadnoughts were actually commonly used even back then, at least some would have survived by sheer coincidence.)

[lord_khaine]

(Also, if Dreadnoughts were always used, how come none of the Dreadnoughts from before the Heresy have survived? Bjorn the Fell-Handed is explicitly stated to be the oldest one of them all, and he didn't become a Dreadnought until long after the Heresy - one would think that if Dreadnoughts were actually commonly used even back then, at least some would have survived by sheer coincidence.)

There are 2 possible solutions for this, firstly that the one Dreadnought who managet to live though all of this is in fact Bjorn, the rest of them has managet to blow themself up though the following 10.000 years of warfare.

The second solution is that Bjorn is the only Dreadnough who is being kept in a stasis crypt to prolong his lifespan, and that all the other dreadnoughs from that time has lost the battle against entropy.

[GolemsVoice]

The Legions though, before the Heresy and the civil war it entailed? They didn't have such a massive shortage on men - why would they have to make use of such an option?


Maybe back then, Dreadnoughts weren't the tombs they are today, but rather a more advanced sort of prostethic limbs that allowed a warrior to fight on where even prostethics and extensive surgery couldn't keep him alive? Maybe they were fully conscious all the time, instead of the death-sleep of modern Dreadnoughts?

So being placed inside a Dreadnought was considered a high honor (you are so important that we want you to live on and give you one of our extremely rare, powerful machines) without the drawbacks?

But maybe the writers/artists just made a mitake.

[Squark]

Question of my own. I recently started reading Fulgrim for another time, and while doing so noticed that, on the cover, there is a depiction of a Dreadnought. I also recall that there was at least one Dreadnought featured towards the end of Galaxy in Flames.

Now, this seriously irritates me, because I'd have thought Dreadnoughts were something that came up only after the Heresy. Every codex containing Dreadnoughts keeps emphasizing how Space Marines are pretty much only interred in Dreadnoughts under the most dire circumstances, so there appears to be a serious reluctance to subject warriors to this fate. It makes sense though - after all, ever since the Heresy, Space Marines are in rather short supply for all the chapters, so preserving them in this fashion may, at times, just be necessary. The Legions though, before the Heresy and the civil war it entailed? They didn't have such a massive shortage on men - why would they have to make use of such an option?

(Also, if Dreadnoughts were always used, how come none of the Dreadnoughts from before the Heresy have survived? Bjorn the Fell-Handed is explicitly stated to be the oldest one of them all, and he didn't become a Dreadnought until long after the Heresy - one would think that if Dreadnoughts were actually commonly used even back then, at least some would have survived by sheer coincidence.)

Hm... I could have sworn I'd encountered something saying that Dreadnoughts used to be exo-suit like things. Could be wrong (In fact, it might have been the result of a comment about how the Contemplator Dreadnought from forgeworld would have looked much better than the DreadKnight)

[Cheesegear]

Did Guilliman force his brothers to adopt the Codex? And did he write it alone?

Sort of, and yes.

The main anti-Codex Primarchs were Dorn and Russ - albeit for two different reasons - and Vulkan.

Dorn was against it because separating Marines from each other was anti-brotherhood, and diluted one of the main strengths of Marines in general.

Guilliman subsequently ordered the Imperial Fleet to bombard Dorn's fleet with torpedoes until he gave in.
/slowclap for Guilliman. In order to prevent civil war, Guilliman was willing to start one. Using non-Astartes military. In a massive clusterf* of "What is this I don't even..." because Dorn was the one who was supposed to be giving orders with the Emperor (and Horus) down, and Malcador being a pile of ash, so why was the Navy listening to Gulliman?

Russ, on the other hand, took a look around, noticed that the only way they were able to stop Horus in the first place was because of the massive strengths that the Legions could bring to bear against each other and told Guilliman to pull his head out of his arse, and then congratulated Guilliman for his integral part of the defense of Terra. :smallwink:

Vulkan was also against the Codex, but I can't find a source for why.

Jangatai Khan and Corax (and Guilliman) supported the Codex, again, I can't seem to find why. Khan I can see, but given Corax's actions during and after the Heresy, I can't really figure out why he would support the Codex.

The Dark Angels, Blood Angels and Iron Hands, having no Primarch to stand for them, accepted the Codex with little resistance.

Basically, 6 Legions accepted the Codex. Dorn was bullied into accepting it, and Vulkan (one of the Dropsite Legions) was probably bullied as well, given that there's no chance he could've stood up to a Legion that didn't even fight in the Heresy.

Russ...Was left alone. No-one messes with Russ.


It's just up to each Chapter how seriously they want to take it.

Sort of. Ultimately it's whether or not Terra approves of your Chapter, and, if they don't, what can they do about it, and whether or not it's worth the cost. In broad general terms, the only thing that can kill a Marine is another Marine. And most Chapters aren't willing to fight other Chapters for a variety of reasons.

So Terra using Loyalist Marines to sanction 'Renegades' is usually out of the question unless it's for a really, really good reason (see Badab War), not just because 'they wont follow the Codex'. Which means they use other forces (Sisters, Guard, etc.) which aren't nearly as effective as actual Marines and generally fail at trying to wipe out 'Renegades'.


What was the point then, other than to annoy Dorn?

The main point of the Codex was to thin down individual political power, by thinning down the military might behind it. To Guilliman's credit (and wholly out of character), Guilliman actually did it to himself as well.

[Squark]

Guilliman subsequently ordered the Imperial Fleet to bombard Dorn's fleet with torpedoes until he gave in.
/slowclap for Guilliman. In order to prevent civil war, Guilliman was willing to start one. Using non-Astartes military. In a massive clusterf* of "What is this I don't even..." because Dorn was the one who was supposed to be giving orders with the Emperor (and Horus) down, and Malcador being a pile of ash.

And then one of the chapters the Fists got split into told Guilliman to go boil his head, and the Black Templars never looked back.


At least, that's roughly what I think happened. The more lore savvy people will probably chide me for being horribly, horribly wrong about every word of that sentence.

[Cheesegear]

And then one of the chapters the Fists got split into told Guilliman to go boil his head, and the Black Templars never looked back.

Actually, Sigismund told Dorn to go boil his head.

[Squark]

Actually, Sigismund told Dorn to go boil his head.

Ah.

...
*reads lexicanum*

Well after the Iron Cage idea, I probably would have a few words for him, too.

[Parra]

Ok, having read the HH books finishing with 'Flight of the Esienstein' and the Ciaphas Cain books finishing with 'Death or Glory' and being unable to continue with either at the moment (cant get my hands on the next books), Can anyone reccomend a some 40k(30k) books to read?

[Cheesegear]

Ok, having read the HH books finishing with 'Flight of the Esienstein' and the Ciaphas Cain books finishing with 'Death or Glory' and being unable to continue with either at the moment (cant get my hands on the next books), Can anyone reccomend a some 40k(30k) books to read?

The rest of the HH/30K books?

Here you go. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9955592&postcount=5)

The only thing I can recommend in addition to that is The Night Lords' Series (http://www.blacklibrary.com/all-products/Soul-Hunter.html), but that's by ADB and inclusive in the link.

[Parra]

cool, I'll take a looksie at the blurb on those and see what catches my attention.

Thanks :smallsmile:

[GallóglachMaxim]

Question of my own. I recently started reading Fulgrim for another time, and while doing so noticed that, on the cover, there is a depiction of a Dreadnought. I also recall that there was at least one Dreadnought featured towards the end of Galaxy in Flames.


IIRC, the Heresy concept art books had a Custodian dreadnought, and the Contemptor dread relies on pre-heresy tech. According to Lexicanum the oldest dreadnought parts were built during the Age of Strife (M23-30) Plus, where else would the traitor legions have gotten the technology from?

[Zorg]

There's a Dreadnought in one of the Dark Angel's HH books - the implication seemed to be that it was basically a way for critically injured marines to continue fighting and act as heavy duty face-wreckers.



Looking good! I'd suggest maybe putting some typical "Thought for the day" or such on the bottom of each page - you know, all those "an open mind is like a fortress with its gates unbarred" and "blessed the mind too narrow for doubt" quotes that demonstrate so aptly what an oppressive, anti-intellectual regime the Imperium is. It would serve as a rather nice contrast to the much more "normal" newspaper and emphasize to the players that this is not just our society with more tech. :smallwink:

As others said, there is one there - I've kept only one per issue so I don't run out of line too quickly :smalltongue: There's also the date, so I'll have the next issue correspond with whatever date they return to either Footfall, Port Wander or a couple of civilised worlds (the only places to get the Gazetter!).


Don't press Thariously?

Doesn't come out right? Ah well, I'll just let any Explorator characters know or keep thte others wondering :smallwink: I used this converter (http://www.binaryhexconverter.com/ascii-text-to-binary-converter) if anyone's interested.


Wasn't "Praise the sun that brings the dawn of our final doom" a Tolkien quote though? Still, it fits quite well- even if lacking in the traditional Imperium attitude.

It's from the RT era Compendium as far as I know.


I must confess that I actually stole those as a future reference if I ever need to make newspapers for my D&D group.
But I would like to point out that I have a bit of a hard time making out the titles, I don't know whether is it due to resolution or font, but I have to really focus on titles to read them.

I'm not entirely sure that's a bad thing - I'm trying to emulate Victorian newspapers with their (to our design sensabilities) illegible walls of text. Since I actually want my players to read said text, I decided to make the headers suitably 'gothic'. That and it adds visual interest.


"Raithe Scrack", indeed? :smalltongue:

Very, very good work Zorg. It's been a very long time since I've wanted to play in an RP game as much as this one, after seeing that. :smallsmile:

Thankyou, I hope my players feel the same way :smallsmile:


Edit: I'm guessing Janrak Spargan is descended from a legendary pirate who sailed the old Terra Caribbean sea, and is that Battle Angel Alita and Miss Fortune from League of Legends for Gilma Locsin and Lady Orelans respectively? :smallbiggrin:

Possibly, I just stole them wholesale utilised the resources made available by Fantasy Flight- they're all their characters. Interesting to know there's still lazy name stealing humourous homages going into 40k products.



Oh and an idea for the next bit of techspeak: 01001000 0110000 1011101 1001100 1010010 0000011 1100101 1011110 1110101 0010000 0011101 0001110 0100110 1001011 0010101 1001000 0100000 0111010 0011101 0101110 0100110 1110011 0100101 1011100 1100111 0010000 0011010 0101110 1000010 0000011 01111011 0011001 1001100 0100000 0111010 0011010 0001100 1010110 1110001 0000001 1011110 1101110 0010000 0011000 0101100 1110110 0001011 0100101 1011100 0111111

Hi Jen!


Very nice, good work! Keep them coming when you make new issues for your players. I think I'll supply another story tommorrow, if you like it?

More story ideas are always welcome, as are short adverts, personals and whatnot. If anyone was wondering, the Gee-Ball pics will all be taken from the Rollerball movies.
Printed out a copy and it looks pretty good, even if I do say so myself :smallbiggrin:

[Trixie]

First, I don't know why, but I find this image amusing:

http://img713.imageshack.us/img713/412/1303317870188.jpg


Question of my own. I recently started reading Fulgrim for another time, and while doing so noticed that, on the cover, there is a depiction of a Dreadnought. I also recall that there was at least one Dreadnought featured towards the end of Galaxy in Flames.

If Dreads are new tech, Codex:CSM would have excluded them like Strom Bolters and Assault cannons, no? :smallconfused:


(Also, if Dreadnoughts were always used, how come none of the Dreadnoughts from before the Heresy have survived? Bjorn the Fell-Handed is explicitly stated to be the oldest one of them all, and he didn't become a Dreadnought until long after the Heresy - one would think that if Dreadnoughts were actually commonly used even back then, at least some would have survived by sheer coincidence.)

Attrition? :smallconfused:

Plus, what you state is not quite true. Bjorn is oldest pilot of dreadnought. Not machine. In fact, Codex: Blood Angels states that some of theirs fought on Terra during the Heresy, so it can't be right.


Guilliman subsequently ordered the Imperial Fleet to bombard Dorn's fleet with torpedoes until he gave in.
/slowclap for Guilliman. In order to prevent civil war, Guilliman was willing to start one. Using non-Astartes military. In a massive clusterf* of "What is this I don't even..." because Dorn was the one who was supposed to be giving orders with the Emperor (and Horus) down, and Malcador being a pile of ash, so why was the Navy listening to Gulliman?

Well, what he was supposed to do? Just roll over and accept open rebellion? Ok, Dorn wouldn't have openly rebelled, but it would have meant end of centralized law in Imperium and opened door to all sorts of nasty consequences based on that precedent.

Why they listened to him? Well... He had that little thing called 'more marines than everyone else combined, twice'? :smallconfused: He was the only person that could have (and kept) Imperium together post-Heresy? He was the only Primarch who actually knew how to rule a state? I suspect once immediate post-Heresy period ended whole Imperium come to accept him as the boss, or at least bigger part than everyone else.


Russ, on the other hand, took a look around, noticed that the only way they were able to stop Horus in the first place was because of the massive strengths that the Legions could bring to bear against each other and told Guilliman to pull his head out of his arse, and then congratulated Guilliman for his integral part of the defense of Terra. :smallwink:

Spiritual Liege would have thrown that right back and asked where Russ was during that battle, and pointed out that he kept 100.000 Heretical Marines at bay when the Wolf just kept running randomly :smalltongue:


Russ...Was left alone. No-one messes with Russ.

Um... Wolves were split, too.


Sort of. Ultimately it's whether or not Terra approves of your Chapter, and, if they don't, what can they do about it, and whether or not it's worth the cost. In broad general terms, the only thing that can kill a Marine is another Marine. And most Chapters aren't willing to fight other Chapters for a variety of reasons.

Haven't latest IA introduced anti-Marine Chapters? Minotaurs? Executioners? Carcharodons?


So Terra using Loyalist Marines to sanction 'Renegades' is usually out of the question unless it's for a really, really good reason (see Badab War), not just because 'they wont follow the Codex'. Which means they use other forces (Sisters, Guard, etc.) which aren't nearly as effective as actual Marines and generally fail at trying to wipe out 'Renegades'.

The same Imperial Guard that held against 100+ Chapters worth of Chaos Marines on Armageddon, eliminating a few dozen worth permanently? Or the same Imperial Guard who failed to held Cadia 13 14 times? :smalltongue:


The main point of the Codex was to thin down individual political power, by thinning down the military might behind it. To Guilliman's credit (and wholly out of character), Guilliman actually did it to himself as well.

Why out of character? :smallconfused:

[Zorg]

First, I don't know why, but I find this image amusing:

http://img713.imageshack.us/img713/412/1303317870188.jpg

Heh, good one :smallbiggrin:


Spiritual Liege would have thrown that right back and asked where Russ was during that battle, and pointed out that he kept 100.000 Heretical Marines at bay when the Wolf just kept running randomly :smalltongue:

One of the possible reasons Horus let the Emperor board his ship was that the Wolves and Dark Angels were coming and if he didn't hurry up and kill the Emperor he'd get trapped between the loyalist armies, so they were (possibly) highly instrumental in Horus' defeat.



Haven't latest IA introduced anti-Marine Chapters? Minotaurs? Executioners? Carcharodons?

Only the Minotaurs are anythign 'anti-Marine'. Executioners love a good fight, and Marines give the best, but they're not better at it than anyone else. Charcharodons just enjoy destroying anyone and everything.



The same Imperial Guard that held against 100+ Chapters worth of Chaos Marines on Armageddon, eliminating a few dozen worth permanently? Or the same Imperial Guard who failed to held Cadia 13 14 times? :smalltongue:

Wel,l Armageddon was about to be overrun, and the only reason it wasn't was that Angron stuffed around piling up skulls rather than attacking, giving the GKs time to arrive and Grimnar to set his trap.
If Angron had just got on with the skulltaking they would have wiped out the defenders entirely (and likely cripple or destroyed the Wolves into the bargain)

[Tome]

Um... Wolves were split, too.

Nope.

Well, okay, there were the Wolf Brothers. But that went so badly that everyone gave up on ever trying to found chapters based on Space Wolf Geneseed ever again.

The exact number of Space Wolves is undetermined, but it is known that they still maintain pretty much the same numbers they had during the Heresy.

[The Glyphstone]

The same Imperial Guard that held against 100+ Chapters worth of Chaos Marines on Armageddon, eliminating a few dozen worth permanently? Or the same Imperial Guard who failed to held Cadia 13 14 times? :smalltongue:


The Imperial Guard have never lost control of Cadia in the entire time it's been colonized. It wasn't until the 13th Black Crusade that Chaos even managed to obtain more than a temporary foothold on its surface.

[Trixie]

One of the possible reasons Horus let the Emperor board his ship was that the Wolves and Dark Angels were coming and if he didn't hurry up and kill the Emperor he'd get trapped between the loyalist armies, so they were (possibly) highly instrumental in Horus' defeat.

Eh, out of three coming Legions, Wolves were smallest by far, so their due in this is debatable. On the flip side, if Word Bearer Legion wasn't busy reinforcements might have come after the planet already fallen.


Only the Minotaurs are anythign 'anti-Marine'. Executioners love a good fight, and Marines give the best, but they're not better at it than anyone else. Charcharodons just enjoy destroying anyone and everything.

Pardon moi, but it's kind of like arguing Preferred Enemy:Everything! isn't Preferred Enemy: Space Marines when you do fight them. Semantics :smallwink:


Wel,l Armageddon was about to be overrun, and the only reason it wasn't was that Angron stuffed around piling up skulls rather than attacking, giving the GKs time to arrive and Grimnar to set his trap.
If Angron had just got on with the skulltaking they would have wiped out the defenders entirely (and likely cripple or destroyed the Wolves into the bargain)

...wait, didn't we have someone being expert on WH40K leaders recently? Maybe we should ask him for advice :smalltongue:


Well, okay, there were the Wolf Brothers. But that went so badly that everyone gave up on ever trying to found chapters based on Space Wolf Geneseed ever again.

Codex suggests more that's due to their rebellious nature and lack obedience they were skipped so many times.


The exact number of Space Wolves is undetermined, but it is known that they still maintain pretty much the same numbers they had during the Heresy.

No. They have 12, not 13 companies, and these are 50-450 sized, not pretty much larger Chapters in themselves as before.


The Imperial Guard have never lost control of Cadia in the entire time it's been colonized. It wasn't until the 13th Black Crusade that Chaos even managed to obtain more than a temporary foothold on its surface.

That was sarcasm :P

[Cheesegear]

Well, what he was supposed to do? Just roll over and accept open rebellion? Ok, Dorn wouldn't have openly rebelled, but it would have meant end of centralized law in Imperium and opened door to all sorts of nasty consequences based on that precedent.

But there was no rebellion. There was only anti-Codex sentiment. Dorn was the one in charge. Emperor down, Warmaster turned traitor and Regent turned to ash. The one in charge is the current Warmaster; Dorn.

Guilliman was the one doing the rebelling.


Why they listened to him? Well... He had that little thing called 'more marines than everyone else combined, twice'? :smallconfused: He was the only person that could have (and kept) Imperium together post-Heresy?

Yes. That's the reason he was able to force his position. With Daddy dead, the IQ of the Imperium (including the Primarchs) drops about 20 points and Guilliman starts acting like Curze to force everyone into his way of thinking by "Do this or I smash you."


He was the only Primarch who actually knew how to rule a state?

No. If he was, Guilliman would have been made Warmaster. Lion was perfectly capable of being Warmaster too if he hadn't f*d everything up. Dorn knew perfectly well how to run a state and that's why the Emperor put him in charge.

And we know Dorn can run a state because he's canonically the Last Primarch for ~150 years, and he does everything fine.


Spiritual Liege would have thrown that right back and asked where Russ was during that battle, and pointed out that he kept 100.000 Heretical Marines at bay when the Wolf just kept running randomly :smalltongue:

Wrong on all counts.
Russ went off to do as Dad told him to do. Then came straight back to Terra.

Guilliman ran off because Word Bearers were attacked Calth. The Word Bearers had no interest in Terra, their job was to bait Guilliman away from Terra and they did that perfectly. Guilliman didn't keep anyone at bay. If anything, it was Lorgar who kept the Ultramarines at bay.

...This is pretty much the topic for Know No Fear early next year.


Haven't latest IA introduced anti-Marine Chapters? Minotaurs? Executioners? Carcharodons?

I already mentioned Badab War as the one time that I can recall where Marines fought Marines for a good reason. Trying to prove me wrong using Badab War Chapters doesn't really work.


The same Imperial Guard that held against 100+ Chapters worth of Chaos Marines on Armageddon, eliminating a few dozen worth permanently?

That's fine. But point me to a canon example of Imperial Guard taking down a Loyalist-turned-Regegade Chapter without Space Marine and/or Inquisition/Exterminatus support? Because all the attempts that I've seen have ended in failure on the High Lords' part and the 'renegade' Chapter's continuing existence.


Why out of character? :smallconfused:

Because Guilliman giving up anything is entirely contrary to what he's written as. Read some books. The Guilliman I know, would more likely say "Everyone has to follow the Codex, except me." and then Guilliman would run roughshod over everyone who stood in his way.

Guilliman was well on his way to becoming something like Huron. Maybe Know No Fear (http://www.blacklibrary.com/all-products/know-no-fear.html) will change Guilliman.

[hamishspence]

Where's it stated that Dorn was still "in charge" when Guilliman introduced the Codex Astartes proposals?

If anything, Guilliman, as "Lord Commander of the Imperium" was in charge of all the Imperium's armed forces, when he introduced the reforms.- the role which corresponds to Dorn's "Warmaster" position during the Heresy.

"Dorn called Guilliman a coward for not fighting at Terra, while Guilliman called Dorn a rebel"

doesn't really make much sense if Guilliman is the one in the "rebel" position.

Concerning Dorn being "canonically the last Primarch"- that doesn't make him the person running the state- the High Lords had already been introduced by this point.

And Deathwatch: First Founding suggests that Vulkan may have lead his legion for 3000 years:


Some sources state that Vulkan lead his chapter for three entire millennia before he departed on some mission he never declared to the Imperium at large, though scant evidence of any of his deeds throughout that age remain.

[Cheesegear]

Where's it stated that Dorn was still "in charge" when Guilliman introduced the Codex Astartes proposals?

Dorn was Warmaster when Horus turned. That puts him in charge. Just as Horus was before him.


If anything, Guilliman, as "Lord Commander of the Imperium"

Source? Nevermind. In looking for other things I found it. After the Heresy, Dorn left on a Crusade (for his failure that is the Emperor getting stabbed), which basically left Guilliman in charge. When he got back, Guilliman was basically in charge of everything and said "Codex, now."


"Dorn called Guilliman a coward for not fighting at Terra, while Guilliman called Dorn a rebel"

Guilliman can say whatever he wants. Dorn could've been a 'rebel' for whatever reason Guilliman could make up. The Codex is designed to reduce political power by reducing military might. If everyone else does it and you don't, that makes you a rebel.


And Deathwatch: First Founding suggests that Vulkan may have lead his legion for 3000 years:

So did most of the Primarchs. :smallconfused:
Anyway, I did some research on the Timeline of the Primarchs quite some time back but I can't find the post. My Search-Fu is pretty bad. Usually other forumites have done it for me.

When Vulkan left, the remaining Primarchs were Dorn and Corax.
Dorn was sad when Corax left.

Dorn was last.

[Borgh]

So did most of the Primarchs. :smallconfused:
Anyway, I did some research on the Timeline of the Primarchs quite some time back but I can't find the post. My Search-Fu is pretty bad. Usually other forumites have done it for me.


o7 SAHR searchin' right now SAHR (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10299770&postcount=1035)

[BRC]

The covers of the Cain books are basically propaganda posters. They show CAIN using a bolt pistol, even though in the books, he turns down anything higher powered than his laspistol because his experience with the laspistol makes aiming it reflexive for him. They also show him standing triumphantly among the corpses of the enemies of the Imperium, which isn't particularly Cain-like.

And Colonels and Majors having bolt pistols is rather different from the rank and file getting the same; if I remember right, they don't even show any officers below that using bolt weapons, though I might be wrong. Heavy bolters are used as support weapons, and regular bolters don't come up much, as far as I remember.

Even Cain's suicide mission squad in For the Emperor, when getting armed with better armor and weapons, only gets hellguns, not bolters. Vail uses a bolt pistol, and Cain keeps his trusty laspistol.
I always got the impression that Bolt weapons were not unusual for Colonels, Majors, and Commissars. I don't think they were actually "standard issue", but at that rank you get to use your influence to get your hands on special gear, and you can get techpriests to maintain your gear for you. Cain's choice of gear seems to be the bare minimum for Commissars, I always got the impression that he's been using the same chainsword and laspistol he was issued with at the Schola. With the exception of some Carapace armor he hasn't really made an effort to get his hands on better gear. Which is a little odd, I would imagine that there must be at least one noble family on Perlia that tried to foist some family heirlooms onto him after the whole Korbul thing.

[lord_khaine]

Thats actualy explained in the books, Cain has used that Laspistol for so long that shooting with it has become instinctive, and he doesnt feel that swiching to something heavyer would be worth the loss of hit% and rate of fire.

[Cheesegear]

So kids, I know sometimes I sound like a shill for Black Library, but in Deliverance Lost, the characters from Raven's Flight are in it, and the events of the latter are referenced heavily and, although I haven't read far in, I'm pretty sure they'll be a plot point later.

Minor spoiler
Also, there are literally dozens of Alphariuses running around at the same time - it turns out that some Alpha Legionaries undergo psy-treatment to become Alpharius, basically meaning that he can't be killed. It also means that the author (Gav Thorpe) doesn't have to write individual personalities for each Alpha 'cause they're all the same guy.

Also,Alpharius can call Erebus out on the bulls* artist that he his.

[Borgh]

That is pretty cool and entirely in line with the things we know of the alpha legion.

Also yay for detracting from Girlymans greatest achievement.

[Platinius]

I just couldn't help it
"I am Spartacus Alpharius!"
"No, I am Alpharius"

[Cheesegear]

I just couldn't help it
"I am Spartacus Alpharius!"
"No, I am Alpharius"

That's the idea. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10330899&postcount=388)

[hamishspence]

So did most of the Primarchs. :smallconfused:
Anyway, I did some research on the Timeline of the Primarchs quite some time back but I can't find the post. My Search-Fu is pretty bad. Usually other forumites have done it for me.

The Great Crusade only lasted 200 years.

And, according to ye olde Codex Imperialis (page 20)


Although long-lived, the Primarchs were not immortal and the last of their kind finally died after fourteen hundred years.

Raising some interesting timeline questions.

Maybe Dorn was the last primarch recorded as "dying" but Vulkan was sighted some 3000 years after the heresy- possibly giving the Salamanders their "quest" for his artifacts?

[lord_khaine]

Whats even more funny is that the last Primach only lived for 1400 years, while Dante is as i recall over 2000?

[hamishspence]

His age is never explicitly given, but in some sources he's been Chapter Master for over 1100 years (Bloodquest, 5E Blood Angels codex).

[Wraith]

Just for fun, here's a little perspective in the issue of Dante's age.....

Pedro Kantor of the Crimson Fists was a Space Marine for about 200 years before coming Chapter Master; he's now approximately 350 years old.

Helbrecht of the Black Templars was a Neophyte in 833.M41 and ascended to become High Marshal in 989.M41, apparently making him incredibly young even as a Space Marine in general, let alone as Master (less than 170 in total!)

Marneus Calgar was Chapter Master in 762.M41. The Ultramarines' Brother-Sergeant Tellion has seen 3 Chapter Masters pass under his watch in 300 years of service and Chaplain Cassius (who has been a Marine for 400 years) testifies that Calgar is "young" in comparison to him.
This suggests that Calgar has probably been Chapter Master for 250-ish years and was a Marine for less than 100 years before that. His predecessors, on the other hand, couldn't have been Chapter Master for more than 50 years, otherwise Tellion wouldn't have known HIS predecessor, so he was a particularly unlucky example. :smalltongue:

Kaldor Draigo was described as "freshly-ennobled" when he is first mentioned in 799.M41, and became Supreme Grand Master in 901.M41. Warp-related gimmicks aside, that means that he was a fully-fledged Marine for at least 102 years before his ascention, up until 999.M41 when he disappeared. He'd be about 210-215 years old, less than 100 of which as "Chapter Master".

Azrael of the Dark Angels doesn't have a precise date of ascention to his post, but in 897.M41 the Chapter was led by Master Bekenel. So, Azrael has been at the post for around about 105 years, if not less.

Tu'Shan of the Salamanders hasn't had his birth/recruitment dates mentioned as far as I know, but since he was promoted just prior to the Second War for Armageddon he has been Chapter Master for about 70 years.

Carab Culln of the Red Scorpions became Chapter Master "during the Badab War" (901.M41-912.M41, so about 95 years to date), after a "quick" ascention from Scout to 1st Company Captain. Make of that what you will.

Gabriel Seth of the Flesh Tearers has been Chapter Master for "over 100 years", and his methods of recruitment and conduct are somewhat revolutionary. It would be reasonable to presume that, between the Black Rage and the Flesh Tearers direct and aggressive tactics, the turn-over rate among Chapter Masters before Seth was comparably high, so he might not physically be particularly old.... But that is definitely a presumption.

Lord Magyar of the Mortifactors is estimated to be over 700 years old, though there's no record of how long he has been Chapter Master. Presumably over 400 years, otherwise old guys like Cassius and Tellion (and, unlike Dante, not in a position of particular stoicism and thus inclined to talk about such things) would remember it within their lifetime.
Incidentally, at such a grand age he is described as virtually decrepid in his actions. Though amazingly competant and effective, he barely moves at anything faster than walking pace - which puts Dante's high-speed Jump Pack antics at twice Magyar's age in a whole new light.

Kathal of the Sons of Malice is over 1,000 years old, though has only been Chapter Master since the beginning of the Thirteenth Black Crusade at the earliest (999.M41).

Meanwhile, Captain Lysander of the Imperial Fists - lost in the Warp for 1,000 years, was Captain of the 1st Company for 200 years, and noted as having a "long career" even before that - "cannot remember a time when Dante was not master of the Blood Angels."

So forget 1,100 years. Dante might actually have been around for more than 1,400. The guy is badass. :smallwink::smallbiggrin:

[hamishspence]

That said, in the 2nd ed Angels of Death book, there's a sergeant called Cleutin who:

"is so old that it is said that he was the Sergeant in charge of Commander Dante's Scout squad when Dante joined the chapter. Whatever the truth of this, there is no doubting that Cleutin is a doughty and experienced warrior, and a worthy guardian of the shroud." C:AoD

I'm told he's mentioned in the PDF 4E Blood Angel codex.

[Wraith]

I'm told he's mentioned in the PDF 4E Blood Angel codex.

He's in the 2nd Edition book for sure, but I couldn't find him in my copy of the 4th Ed. Admittedly I only speed-read through it, but I'm fairly sure he's out of the canon as anything other than a historical figure.

[hamishspence]

I'm pretty sure he wasn't in it as a character- only as a passing veiled reference if at all- it was mentioned in a B&C thread discussing oldest marines.

[Wraith]

I know, it was the fluff pieces that I read, and couldn't find him.

Like I said, I wasn't looking too hard, but at best it's an incredibly fleeting reference. :smallsmile:

[Squark]

Whats even more funny is that the last Primach only lived for 1400 years, while Dante is as i recall over 2000?

Well... Blood Angels are supposed to be long lived for marines as I recall, so it's possible Sanguinus, if he hadn't been killed by Horus, might have lived for several thousand years.

[Maquise]

Quick question: how would Black Templars and Grey Knights interact?

[iyaerP]

I honestly don't know enough to say in this case. I know that the BTs are supposed to hate witches, witchery, and anything witch related, but they are also THE MOST ZEALOUS chapter of marines in the entire imperium, and would probably not make an issue of the GKs being all psychers because they are also basically The Inquisition: SPACE MARINE edition. =][=

As for the GKs taking issue with the Templars? I see no reason they would.

However, I am going to put out as a disclaimer that I have 0 first hand GK fluff knowledge and only Damnation crusade for first hand Templars knowledge. Everything else is hearsay from here and other internets. I am going to deferr this one to the wisdom of Cheesegear.

[DaedalusMkV]

Quick question: how would Black Templars and Grey Knights interact?

According to the old fluff, the Grey Knights are the only Psykers that the Black Templars consider 'pure' enough to not be an abomination against the Emperor, because none of them have ever fallen to Chaos. As such Templars are perfectly happy to work alongside Grey Knights, and consider it something of an honour to meet one of the Emperor's holiest warriors, though they generally tend to avoid any sort of contact with the Inquisition because of their blatant disregard for anything approximating Codex organization. In the reverse case, the Grey Knights tend to see Templars the same way they see every other Space Marine; valiant and honourable defenders of the Imperium, but not a Grey Knight and therefore a potential weak link that isn't to be trusted more than necessary.

By the new fluff, where the Knights are super-secret-agents and everybody who sees one gets executed, I have no idea.

[Maquise]

So, on a related note, how different are the current Grey Knights from their portrayal in the Grey Knights Omnibus? I personally quite liked those stories (Grey Knights, Dark Adeptus and Hammer of Daemons).

[Sheep Overlord]

This is a bit away from the current focus, but where would I find information on current Cadian regiments and numbers, and on their typical unit compositions? I need to name my new army but I don't want to take the name or number of an existing group. Besides that, I just find the Guard to be particularly interesting.

In fact, general information on Cadians would probably be good to have as well - do they tend to favor armored companies or blocks of infantry? And, more to the point for my army, how likely are they to have a regiment devoted specifically to urban warfare or night-fighting?

[Newman]

Being Spess Mehreen for over a millenium? In a galaxy that's perpetually at war?

Don't they grow weary and tired and depressed with all the stagnation?

[GolemsVoice]

I've heard some do, and that's what they have chaplains for, but well, fighting is all they're ever designed for, I guess most SM simply can't imagine doing anything else.


In fact, general information on Cadians would probably be good to have as well - do they tend to favor armored companies or blocks of infantry? And, more to the point for my army, how likely are they to have a regiment devoted specifically to urban warfare or night-fighting?

The Munitorum Manual is an ingame description of general Munitorum practice, exemplified by a Cadian regiment, you could read up there, it has some sections on organization and such.

[hamishspence]

So, on a related note, how different are the current Grey Knights from their portrayal in the Grey Knights Omnibus? I personally quite liked those stories (Grey Knights, Dark Adeptus and Hammer of Daemons).

They've generally gotten more ruthless (if that's possible) being willing to sacrifice the innocent if it will create a ward against the daemonic.

Ben Counter's latest Grey Knights short story (Sacrifice, in Victories of the Space Marines) hints at this.

They also seem to have alliances with various alien races to get anti-Chaos materials. Interestingly, it would appear that at one point, these included the Necrons, with them having "tesseract labyrinths" to imprison daemons, in the fluff, that appeared in the Necron Codex as Necron wargear items.

[iyaerP]

They've generally gotten more ruthless (if that's possible) being willing to sacrifice the innocent if it will create a ward against the daemonic.

Ben Counter's latest Grey Knights short story (Sacrifice, in Victories of the Space Marines) hints at this.

They also seem to have alliances with various alien races to get anti-Chaos materials. Interestingly, it would appear that at one point, these included the Necrons, with them having "tesseract labyrinths" to imprison daemons, in the fluff, that appeared in the Necron Codex as Necron wargear items.

Isn't that just on the ordo xenos inquisitor? For whom it would make perfect sense to have said item. What doesn't make sense is why ordo xenos and hereticus inquisitors are in the Grey Knight army.

[Borgh]

Mostly because the ordos have been a formality for a while now. As the Eisenhorn and Czevak books have shown it always turns out to be chaos in the end and then the GK show up.
Xenos: So the xeno artifact started glowing and a thousand screaming deamons poured into reality?
Hereticus: So that witch you tried to burn recruited the voices in his head?

[Cheesegear]

Mostly because the ordos have been a formality for a while now. As the Eisenhorn and Czevak books have shown it always turns out to be chaos in the end

And the Cain books say it's always Necrons in the end. Or Tyranids. But mostly Necrons.

[iyaerP]

And the Cain books say it's always Necrons in the end. Or Tyranids. But mostly Necrons.

To be fair, having a book series that actually makes the 'crons out to be a terrifying unstoppable force is a GOOD thing. Too often they are just elite cannon fodder for the protagonists.

[The Glyphstone]

Makes you wonder how Mitchell will handle NewCrons, if he decides to acknowledge them at all.

[iyaerP]

What's his next book going to be anyway, do we even know? Because for the most part, they have been in chronological order, but the latest one went way back to Cain's service with the Space Marines.

[Cheesegear]

What's his next book going to be anyway, do we even know? Because for the most part, they have been in chronological order

That's just it, and why I now hate Cain. We've seen Cain in 999.M41, there will be no stories set after that, because 40K stories don't work that way. Every book Cain is in, from now on, he'll live through and be totally fine because he survives the 13th Black Crusade.

[Gauntlet]

I thought we already knew he wasn't going to get taken down in any of them since they are his memoirs, so he couldn't write them if he got killed in action? ¬.- They would have to be written from a different perspective.

[Cheesegear]

I thought we already knew he wasn't going to get taken down in any of them since they are his memoirs, so he couldn't write them if he got killed in action? ¬.- They would have to be written from a different perspective.

That too. :smallmad:

[iyaerP]

That's just it, and why I now hate Cain. We've seen Cain in 999.M41, there will be no stories set after that, because 40K stories don't work that way. Every book Cain is in, from now on, he'll live through and be totally fine because he survives the 13th Black Crusade.

Except that we knew from the very first page of the very first book that survives to retirement and a ripe old age.

The only spoilery thing for me is that he implied early on that Jurgen had died at some point, and I had eagerly looked forward (in a morbid kind of way) to the inevitable heroic sacrafice of Jurgen and seeing how that played out, except we saw in Cain's Last Stand that that got retconned out apparently, and Jurgen was just as alive, well, and plot armour-providing as ever.

[Tome]

Isn't that just on the ordo xenos inquisitor? For whom it would make perfect sense to have said item.

Nah, they're explicitly mentioned as having a bunch of Tesseract Labyrinths back on Titan that they use to imprison things they can't destroy.

[lord_khaine]

Makes you wonder how Mitchell will handle NewCrons, if he decides to acknowledge them at all.

Well, luckily it wont be a issue for him, since there are several different tomb worlds, who each behave differently.

One of them are even behaving like the old Necrons due to a serious accident.

[Wraith]

Quick question: how would Black Templars and Grey Knights interact?

Daedalus pretty much hit it on the head - the only Space Marines who are allowed to know anything about the Grey Knights are the Exorcist Chapter, who freely give up their most talented recruits to the GK's as potential neophytes.
Everyone else, including the mighty Ultramarines and other large Founding Legions, are kept entirely in the dark by order of the Emperor himself.

The implication being that there is no interaction between the Black Templars and the Grey Knights - the former does not know that the latter exists, let alone what they are capable of.
Conversely, if the BT's ever did find out about it, the GK's and the Inquisition have the authority to kill every BT involved and then disappear before anyone could ask any questions regardless of the BT's reactions.

Although, we can make an educated guess, given their actions towards other unusually organised Chapters, that the Black Templars would probably declare a massive Crusade against the Grey Knights for what they perceive as massively heretical activities, and as the Grey Knights aren't predisposed towards explaining themselves to anyone outside their own Ordo....

.....By and large, this sort of thing gets filed under "It's not going to happen, because that sort of thing would destroy the Imperium" and isn't talked about. :smalltongue:


So, on a related note, how different are the current Grey Knights from their portrayal in the Grey Knights Omnibus? I personally quite liked those stories (Grey Knights, Dark Adeptus and Hammer of Daemons).

Grey Knights were originally secretive, but most Imperial Forces seemed to know of their existence as an incredibly powerful, super-elite Space Marine Chapter, if nothing else about them.

Now they are an utter X-File, with the authority (and, apparently, physical strength) to mindwipe companies of other Space Marines and to commit genocide on 'Guard regiments who have seen them in action. :smalleek:

Grey Knights were originally powerful psykers, who had abilities focused towards making themselves faster, stronger and spiritually reinforced against Daemonic taint, and to banishing Daemons back to the Warp.

Now they are multipurpose psykers and are also Sorcerers who use everything from the same Vortex Of Doom-style powers available to all other Space Marines, to sacrificing 'pure' Imperial citizens in order to begin Blood Rituals in order to fight against Khornate Daemons. :smallconfused:

So.... Yes. Very different. :smallbiggrin:

[hamishspence]

Daedalus pretty much hit it on the head - the only Space Marines who are allowed to know anything about the Grey Knights are the Exorcist Chapter, who freely give up their most talented recruits to the GK's as potential neophytes.
Everyone else, including the mighty Ultramarines and other large Founding Legions, are kept entirely in the dark by order of the Emperor himself.

The implication being that there is no interaction between the Black Templars and the Grey Knights - the former does not know that the latter exists, let alone what they are capable of.

Some chapters (the Space Wolves, the Blood Angels) have fought beside the Grey Knights- but with their warriors being mindwiped afterward by special agreement (at least, in the case of the Blood Angels).

So- while much of the higher echelons of the Imperial Military don't know about them, a small proportion do.

[Razgriez]

Well.... not exactly.

The way I've seen it, if you go by this idea that "The Grey Knights are so super secret, that if you see them, they can kill you" is a bit silly, when you consider that in fluff, they are not exactly kept incredibly secret from other races.

Chaos obviously knows them, Because that's who GK fight the most. Also, having your Current Chapter Master wandering the Warp, only to pop in, say "Hi, how's the chapter doing? Good? Oh there's a war here? Ok let's banish some demons" every few centuries, means that I'm sure most Chaos Demons know about them by now.

It's probably fair to say, that several Alien races know them. Eldar definitely know some info about them. Tau, not so much (Having Zero psykers, who, for the most part, aren't dealing with a significant chance of Demonic Incursion, probably helps). Orks probably look at them, as like any other Space Marine force, just rather shiny looking, and a puzzled confusion when weird things start happening all over the battle field. At which point, it goes from "It's a Space Marine!" to: "It's one of dem' posh zoggin' Space marine Weird Boyz!" It's hinted at that the GK and Inquisition has worked with/Stolen from other, less known/unknown alien races for some tech. Though, this being 40k, and depending on who was handling the trade, this could range anywhere between a simple Business like transaction/trade, all the way to "Thanks for the tech, xenos. Here, have an Exterminatus".

We know some, if not all Space Marine Chapters, at least those in high rank (I.E. Chapter Masters) known about them. Obviously, there may be a few exceptions (Black Templars, are indeed, a good question). Logan Grimnar of the Space Wolves knows about them because looking at the lore, he was the one who called for aid from the Grey Knights to help out during the first war for Armageddon. So it's probably safe to presume, that overall, most Chapter masters know about them, in case they have to step back and go "Whoa.. ok, we may need some extra help on this one"

And we know that in some cases, Imperial Guard Regiments might be mind blanked if they served well and held loyal through out the battle. (Though it's also indicated, that not every single one survives the process, though the reasons can vary to suspected taint/resistant to the process, to unfortunate accident, caused by the stress/pain/etc of the process.)

The "Forced labor concentration camps/Execution/Mind blank" part, looks more like it's done out of "You have seen too many warp-spawned horrors, it's for your own good" due to concern for corruption or taint. Not "You have seen us, and we can not let you live in danger of us being known."

[Wraith]

So- while much of the higher echelons of the Imperial Military don't know about them, a small proportion do.

A very good point. I would, however, wonder if it was more a case of them knowing of the Grey Knights, rather than knowing anything about them. It wouldn't be beyond the plausibility of the 40k setting if it were just a case of each Chapter Master being told "By the way, you know if you ever come across a lot of Daemons all in one place? Give these guys a call. Don't ask any questions, but trust us - they're on your side, and they know what they're doing." :smallwink:


The way I've seen it, if you go by this idea that "The Grey Knights are so super secret, that if you see them, they can kill you" is a bit silly, when you consider that in fluff, they are not exactly kept incredibly secret from other races.

I'm not disagreeing with you that it's silly. But apparently that really is what they do, canonically, to most people who see them in action and aren't other Space Marines. (Page 13 of Codex: Grey Knights states it in detail) *shrugs*


Chaos obviously knows them, Because that's who GK fight the most.

It might be more accurate to say that Chaos knows of them. They'll probably recognise the Loyalist Marines with silver armour and some seriously neat toys as something best avoided, but as to actually who they are and what their precise methods or mission statement might be? Probably not, especially given that a lot of Chaos intelligence is gathered through corruption and assimilation; no Grey Knight has ever fallen to Chaos, and no one else knows enough about the Grey Knights to be of much use.


It's probably fair to say, that several Alien races know them. Eldar definitely know some info about them.

I thought it was the Ordos Xenos that had all the dealings with the other races, procuring technology and information on the Grey Knights' behalf?
By all means, please prove me wrong, but I cannot think of anything in the Codex or other lore that says that the Grey Knights have direct diplomatic dealings with anyone other than the Inquisition. Otherwise, what the Eldar know about Grey Knights probably wouldn't be much more than a vague outline?


Logan Grimnar of the Space Wolves knows about them because looking at the lore, he was the one who called for aid from the Grey Knights to help out during the first war for Armageddon.

This bit in particular is contradictory that made me think that NO-ONE actually knows much about them, other than they exist and can offer aid in dire circumstances. Codex:GK's has a passage about the treatment of Imperial Forces who witness them in action, which says:


[While the Imperial Guardsmen are executed,] Space Marines are too valuable a commodity to wilfully be cast aside, and so are instead subjected to a more time-consuming, but markedly safer, mind-wipe process. Most go willingly, readily making a sacrifice of self so that they might continue to serve the Emperor. Those few who resist share the fate of the Imperial Guardsmen. Once again, there are exceptions, but only those very few Chapters in which the Inquisition has complete trust (or at least as close to complete trust as an organisation such as the Inquisition can permit....)

Page 13 again. See where I'm coming from? While Logan Grimnir might have the authority (or even just raw charisma) to ask the Inquisition to send someone to help him, the bolded bit - despite the lore about the War for Armageddon - absolutely does not describe the Space Wolves! :smallbiggrin:


The "Forced labor concentration camps/Execution/Mind blank" part, looks more like it's done out of "You have seen too many warp-spawned horrors, it's for your own good" due to concern for corruption or taint.

Officially yes, but it's implied that the Inquisition has it's own, ulterior reasons as well (if one can believe such shocking accusaions! :smalltongue: )

[Bouregard]

Officially yes, but it's implied that the Inquisition has it's own, ulterior reasons as well (if one can believe such shocking accusaions! :smalltongue: )

You know all those new servitors need bodies too...

[Cheesegear]

Page 13 again. See where I'm coming from? While Logan Grimnir might have the authority (or even just raw charisma) to ask the Inquisition to send someone to help him, the bolded bit - despite the lore about the War for Armageddon - absolutely does not describe the Space Wolves! :smallbiggrin:

The Inquisition, in fact, asked Logan for help during the 13th Crusade, where he once again commanded - or directed - Grey Knights for the second time. Where he was named Lord Solar - again!

"Despite the lore for Armageddon." Well, no. You can't just remove it. Because it happened. True story.

And it's not so much the Inquisition that hates the Space Wolves, that's not even it at all. It's Logan that hates the High Lords, or the Adeptus Terra. The Inquisition doesn't have a whole lot to do with it except as agents of Terra.
The Space Wolves and Terra were best friends until Logan.

[Razgriez]

On the Eldar issue, don't forget, there's a score of Purifiers, who were placed on the remains of Craftworld Malan'tai after clensing it of a Slaneesh Greater Demon on a "All the Spirit stones you eat Buffet" after Malan'tai got wrecked by some Tyranids. And their job is to remain on board, guarding it, until another Eldar Craftworld is in range to recover the remaining spirit stones. (Story given on Page 14)

Plus, surely the Eldar would sense some sort of psyker ability from the Grey Knights? And in the other cases, of gaining Xenos tech from other races. Yes, I'm sure Ordo Xenos Inqusitors probably do the majority of the work. That's not to say there's a chance a few Grey Knights might possibly be with them, wanting to know about technology they might be using soon.

With Chaos, we know that several Greater Demons, have fought and been banished multiple times by the Grey Knights, and there are rivalries between some of them, Brother Captain Stern vs. M'Kachen for example. And the ones who have fought Lord Kaldor Draigo.

Also on Page 14 of the GK codex, is the Raxos Civil War, where Civilians were being evacuated off planet, and covered by the Grey Knights, to assist in escaping.... well they almost, up until Stern realizes that their target, had managed to sneak on board one of the evacuation shuttles, and were forced to destroy all of them to prevent the Changeling from escaping.

That's not to say that there are secrets about the Grey Knights that they would kill someone to protect. Indeed, I'm sure to the casual observer, they are just, a rather unique looking Space Marine force. And yes, the GK, and the Inquisition, would completely wipe out the planet's populace and defenders, if they deem it better than to risk Chaos corrupting them anytime soon. It's been seen on Armageddon, as well as Tarsis (which happened at least once, possibly twice after the end of the game/book) in the Dawn of War Series.

[Maquise]

It might be more accurate to say that Chaos knows of them. They'll probably recognise the Loyalist Marines with silver armour and some seriously neat toys as something best avoided, but as to actually who they are and what their precise methods or mission statement might be? Probably not, especially given that a lot of Chaos intelligence is gathered through corruption and assimilation; no Grey Knight has ever fallen to Chaos, and no one else knows enough about the Grey Knights to be of much use.



[Chaos Lord] Venalitor snapped his fingers and a scaephylyd slave master scurried up, cradling the shoulder pad from a suit of Space Marine power armor in its front legs. Venalitor took the shoulder pad and held it up for Lord Ebondrake to see the device emblazoned across it. The ceramite was deeply carved with devotional prayers in High Gothic, and it bore the symbol of a sword thrust through an open book.
'A Grey Knight,' said Ebondrake.
'Two Grey Knights,' replied Venalitor. He looked purposefully at Arguthrax. 'Daemon hunters.'


At least some members of Chaos know who the Grey Knights are and what their purpose is.

[Ailurus]

This bit in particular is contradictory that made me think that NO-ONE actually knows much about them, other than they exist and can offer aid in dire circumstances. Codex:GK's has a passage about the treatment of Imperial Forces who witness them in action, which says:

Page 13 again. See where I'm coming from? While Logan Grimnir might have the authority (or even just raw charisma) to ask the Inquisition to send someone to help him, the bolded bit - despite the lore about the War for Armageddon - absolutely does not describe the Space Wolves! :smallbiggrin:


Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't the First War of Armageddon one of the main reasons why Logan started not liking the Inquisition, when the orders came down to execute every single Guardsman on the planet after the war was over?

As Cheesegear said, no reason to think the Space Wolves didn't get along with Terra beforehand, so I can't see any reason why Logan wouldn't call for the Grey Knights to get rid of a Daemon Prince (if he knew of their existence) After the 'cleanup' I can see him not wanting to, but not before.

[hamishspence]

Anyone want to discuss the new Ciaphas Cain novel The Last Ditch?

Among other things, it tends to support the notion that Tyranids have been afflicting the galaxy for a very long time- with a ship that crash landed on a planet long before the earliest previously mentioned Hive Fleets.

[Brother Oni]

Anyone want to discuss the new Ciaphas Cain novel The Last Ditch?

Among other things, it tends to support the notion that Tyranids have been afflicting the galaxy for a very long time- with a ship that crash landed on a planet long before the earliest previously mentioned Hive Fleets.

I thought the genestealers were the earliest recorded Hive Fleet splinter (post retcon anyway)? Earliest encounter of them was M35 according to the Lexicanum, unless the new novel predates that appearance.

[Cheesegear]

Among other things, it tends to support the notion that Tyranids have been afflicting the galaxy for a very long time- with a ship that crash landed on a planet long before the earliest previously mentioned Hive Fleets.


Earliest encounter of them was M35 according to the Lexicanum, unless the new novel predates that appearance.

QFT. Tyranids being around for a long time isn't new. Inquisition War - set in M36 - deals with Genestealers quite a bit. I'm also uh...Not reading Cain books for the time being anyway. Unless something has drastically changed about the character?

I'm told that Last Ditch is basically Caves of Ice 2.0. Has Mitchell delved into the NewCrons (the bad kind of Necrons)? Or are they still lol!Crons that just show up and kill everything and leave (the good kind of Necrons, the ones Mitchell wrote pre-new-Codex).

[Winterwind]

I thought the genestealers were the earliest recorded Hive Fleet splinter (post retcon anyway)? Earliest encounter of them was M35 according to the Lexicanum, unless the new novel predates that appearance.Aren't creatures like Catachan Devils and Fenris Kraken supposedly descended from Tyranids, showing that single displaced Hive Fleet splinters may have reached our galaxy even earlier than that?


Haven't read Last Ditch yet; I'm not even through Emperor's Finest. Been too busy painting minis to read lately, which I guess isn't the worst thing for a Warhammer enthusiast.

[Wraith]

The whole story that I can piece together from Lexicanum (quite a lot of which is substantiated by the last 2 editions of Codices Tyranids and Space Marines) goes as such:

Genestealers were first believed to have arrived in the Milky Way in M35 as part of what is now known as Hive Fleet Tiamat, though in reality might just be a tiny group of Tyranids that were blown off course by Solar winds and settled on the moons of Ymgarl, in the Tiamat System.
Left to their own devices, the proto-Nids of Ymgarl eventually evolved enough to spread out as far as Segmentum Obscuris, which explains the number of monstrous creatures such as Catachan Devils apparently sharing many Genestealer characteristics.

However, they were likely brought in greater numbers aboard drifting Space Hulks at pretty much any given date. Nobody knows for sure how many drifting Space Hulks have been recorded, let alone how many actually exist unchecked, and any or even all of them could bring any number of horrors back from outside the Galaxy. Some of them may even have bumped into Admiral Usurs (http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Admiral_Usurs#.Tx2AofnGDAE) coming the other way and hitched a ride. :smallbiggrin:

The additional implications are that Tyranid DNA arrived in our system entirely by accident. The Genestealers found the Imperium purely by a freak coincidence, and called the rest of the Swarm just because the place looked nice and tasty..... :smalltongue:

The Tyranids as a faction, in all their various forms and flavours, arrived in the Milky Way first at the assault on Tyran in 745.M41. Hilarity ensued shortly thereafter.

It wasn't until the aftermath of the Battle for Macragge a year later when Technomagi, investigating and classifying the remains of the creatures that had invaded Ultramar, discovered that Genestealers were genetically codified as Tyranids also.

[hamishspence]

It does mention the M35 date.

Initially the Tyranids in The Last Ditch are thought to have arrived there some 7000 years ago- noted to be somewhat earlier than M35.

Later, they realize that those Nids are much, much older. With the "comet" that turned the planet into an iceball all those years ago, actually being the hiveship.

Necrons don't make an appearence. Nids first seen in the new codex (mawloc, tervigon) do, however.

This novel is chronologically shortly after The Traitor's Hand (specifically, 942.M41).

[Brother Oni]

Out of curiosity, was Space Hulk the earliest instance of the Genestealers as antagonists, or does their Rogue Trader mention also lists stats as well?

I remember there was an After Action Report in the front of the 1st Ed rule book detailing how much of a complete [redacted] the Blood Angel's first encounter with 'stealers aboard a Space Hulk was, but I'm fairly sure the actual missions of the game was set ~600 years later.

There was a background book as well, which also listed the first time an Imperial world was lost to a genestealer cult infiltration and planetary revolt.

Edit: According to a copy of the manual I found on the internet, the AAR is apparently dated 989.M41. I need to find my copy of the game to verify this, because it sounds far too recent to match up with the M35 initial date of contact.

[Wraith]

Though they looked very different - and at the time, definitely were an individual species, as Tyranids in general didn't exist - Genestealers did exist in Rogue Trader. I don't remember anything about their stats, though RT's system was very different to what it is now so it probably wouldn't mean much if I could.

The one on the top left is right out of the Rogue trader rulebook (http://the-lost-and-the-damned.664610.n2.nabble.com/file/n1082826/GS+conversion+1.jpeg), just in case you were wondering. :smallsmile:

[Zorg]

Big, probably important plot stuff about a book with a listed release date of next month.

Thanks for the spoilers guys! :smallcool:

[hamishspence]

Next month? It came out on the 21st. Though I suppose the bookshops might get it later.

And those aren't that important to the plot. The blurb on the back of the book tells us about a terrible enemy that's lain dormant since before the Imperium came to the sector- so you don't need to have read the book to know that bit.

[Cheesegear]

Next month? It came out on the 21st. Though I suppose the bookshops might get it later.

While things are usually different for Australia, I for one, can attest that I could've bought the book last Saturday (the 21st), and I opted not to. Instead I bought the second Blood Angels Omnibus, Luthor Huss, and Labyrinth of Sorrows.

Also, Emperor's Finest was released in non-stupid paperback form. Which I considered getting because hard-back books annoy me. I should probably start using my Kindle more.

But, looking at the Black Library website, yes, in fact, you can't actually buy any of them?

[hamishspence]

Also, Emperor's Finest was released in non-stupid paperback form. Which I considered getting because hard-back books annoy me. I should probably start using my Kindle more.

While the larger size and cost of hardbacks can be irritating, there's downsides to paperbacks too. Some have a spine that creases very easily, no matter how careful you are when opening them.

[Zorg]

Black Library's website lists the release date as February. Also there's a difference between "ancient evil lying dormant since before the Imperium arrived" and "X wasn't Y, it was Z all along!"




In other news, Deliverance Lost is awesome. The Alpha Legion's involvement is minimal, but well played and there is some continuation from the events of Legion.
Corax's childhood is examined in depth, and the Emperor gets some good pagetime to follow on from his great appearance in Outcast Dead. I'd easily rate the book equal with Thousand Sons, Outcast Dead and Mechanicum, my favourites in the series.

[Cheesegear]

While the larger size and cost of hardbacks can be irritating, there's downsides to paperbacks too. Some have a spine that creases very easily, no matter how careful you are when opening them.

Like I said, I need to use my Kindle more. While Black Library is refusing to license to Amazon, pretty much all their books are downloadable now in Kindle format, so that's an even better plus.


Black Library's website lists the release date as February.

Is my GW weird then? Are they supposed to be selling books this early?


In other news, Deliverance Lost is awesome. The Alpha Legion's involvement is minimal, but well played and there is some continuation from the events of Legion.

I took an uncharacteristically long time to read it. But, I quite liked it. Imperial Fists are in it...And awesome. :smallamused:

[Zorg]

Is my GW weird then? Are they supposed to be selling books this early?

Regardless, it's still only been out for what, five days? Still a bit early for non-spoilers on anything concrete methinks.

But anyways...



I took an uncharacteristically long time to read it. But, I quite liked it. Imperial Fists are in it...And awesome. :smallamused:

I thought everyone's characterisation was really good, though at the end:

when the various Alpharii are revealed they hadn't used their real names for so long I'd sort of forgotten who was who (ie which Alpharius was Ort etc).
I would have liked to see the 'main' Alpharius have a bit more of a moral dillemma over killing the Raven Guard, or even to have truely become a Raven Guard, but oh well.

The Emperor's museum was a great scene too.


Been trying to listen to Dead in the Water, and I'm finding that the dialogue is noticably quieter than the prose. So listening to it either means that I'm struggling to hear the speach or the rest is a little too loud.
Anyone else found this? Admittedly I wasn't listening to it in the most quiet of places, but still.
The story itself isn't too bad so far, though thanks to Cheese I kept noticing him saying "if I'd known now what I'd known then..." Or maybe it's that he says it three or four times in the space of ten minutes.
The production is great with subtle sound effects used sparingly. Cain is a hell of a lot more gravelly than I'd imagined. The commanding man-voice would make a great Gaunt or Yarrick, but for Cain I'd always imagined him as a more Colin Firth or serious, non-fake American Hugh Laurie sounding type.

[Cheesegear]

The story itself isn't too bad so far, though thanks to Cheese I kept noticing him saying "if I'd known now what I'd known then..." Or maybe it's that he says it three or four times in the space of ten minutes.

[...] but for Cain I'd always imagined him as a more Colin Firth or serious, non-fake American Hugh Laurie sounding type.

So, thanks to me you noticed it was repetitive, but not that Toby Longworth is exactly the wrong voice for Cain?

That being said, Longworth is absolutely brilliant at doing voices for pretty much everything else he's ever done - except female voices.

[Arcanoi]

The additional implications are that Tyranid DNA arrived in our system entirely by accident. The Genestealers found the Imperium purely by a freak coincidence, and called the rest of the Swarm just because the place looked nice and tasty..... :smalltongue:


Well, that would be one of the viable ways of finding galaxies, wouldn't it? Send out a massive net of genestealer colonies in all directions, which call the Swarm if they manage to find a large enough saturation of organics to reach critical mass. The other option would be to somehow find a galaxy, calculate its trajectory compared to yours, and then figure out where it would be when you got there and go there, something the Nids could probably do, but it seems out of character.

[Wraith]

I meant, as opposed to the idea that the Tyranids are being 'chased' into the Milky Way by something even bigger and scarier than they are, which is one of the popular theories as to why they're suddenly appearing en masse.

[Trixie]

And the Cain books say it's always Necrons in the end. Or Tyranids. But mostly Necrons.

You say?

*cough* The Traitor's Hand... Death or Glory... The Emperor's Finest... The Beguiling... Traitor's Gambit... - not a single Necron or Tyranid in there...

And arguably Duty Calls, For the Emperor and Cain's Last Stand, where Tyranids/Necrons appear for a few pages with real big bads being Chaos/Traitors. Always? :smallconfused:


Makes you wonder how Mitchell will handle NewCrons, if he decides to acknowledge them at all.

And what exactly changed in them he needs to change anything? :smallconfused:

In fact, "new" Necrons are more similar to Cain's ones than the old, IMHO.


That's just it, and why I now hate Cain. We've seen Cain in 999.M41, there will be no stories set after that, because 40K stories don't work that way. Every book Cain is in, from now on, he'll live through and be totally fine because he survives the 13th Black Crusade.

Um... Except, that's not exactly true, since I recall at least 3-4 short stories/blurbs in Cainverse set in 06-08.M42, willingness of the author to go past that barrier being one of the things making him unique...

And if you believe Eisenhorn, Czevak, Ravenor, Gaunt or Ventris will die I have a few Cadian pylons for sale for really small amount of teef :P

Oh, and if you really want unkillable characters, Roboute, Russ, Dorn & co *gasp!* will (with 100% certainty) survive their own series, too. Still, that's not the point of reading about them, IMHO.


Nah, they're explicitly mentioned as having a bunch of Tesseract Labyrinths back on Titan that they use to imprison things they can't destroy.

IIRC, they have really small supply of TL plundered from somewhere that is about to run out, sadly.


Although, we can make an educated guess, given their actions towards other unusually organised Chapters, that the Black Templars would probably declare a massive Crusade against the Grey Knights for what they perceive as massively heretical activities, and as the Grey Knights aren't predisposed towards explaining themselves to anyone outside their own Ordo....

BT organizing Crusade against unusually organized Chapters? When? :smallconfused:

Plus, that would require them to start with a certain 'faux-legion' bunch of outcasts, which would be a rather curious thing to witness :smalltongue:


Grey Knights were originally secretive, but most Imperial Forces seemed to know of their existence as an incredibly powerful, super-elite Space Marine Chapter, if nothing else about them.

Now they are an utter X-File, with the authority (and, apparently, physical strength) to mindwipe companies of other Space Marines and to commit genocide on 'Guard regiments who have seen them in action. :smalleek:

Now? :smallconfused: Ward didn't invented 1st Armageddon, you know, or any of their earliest activities.


Grey Knights were originally powerful psykers, who had abilities focused towards making themselves faster, stronger and spiritually reinforced against Daemonic taint, and to banishing Daemons back to the Warp.

Now they are multipurpose psykers and are also Sorcerers who use everything from the same Vortex Of Doom-style powers available to all other Space Marines, to sacrificing 'pure' Imperial citizens in order to begin Blood Rituals in order to fight against Khornate Daemons. :smallconfused:

So, they went from psykers we knew little about... to pretty much the same psykers, only in spotlight, and with methods explained, not implied? :smallconfused:

Sorry, I don't see much difference there, save for finally seeing their Librarians and Grand Masters we long knew they possessed.


Well, that would be one of the viable ways of finding galaxies, wouldn't it? Send out a massive net of genestealer colonies in all directions, which call the Swarm if they manage to find a large enough saturation of organics to reach critical mass. The other option would be to somehow find a galaxy, calculate its trajectory compared to yours, and then figure out where it would be when you got there and go there, something the Nids could probably do, but it seems out of character.

How about, I don't know, using a telescope? Galaxy isn't exactly a small object, and it can be detected without throwing biomatter away into extragalactic space...

[Zorg]

Now? :smallconfused: Ward didn't invented 1st Armageddon, you know, or any of their earliest activities.

The screwing of the defenders of Armageddon was done by the Adeptus Terra, not the Grey Knights.
Similarly, early accounts of mindwiping and murdering due to deamonic interaction are perpetrated by others - never the GKs themselves.


How about, I don't know, using a telescope? Galaxy isn't exactly a small object, and it can be detected without throwing biomatter away into extragalactic space...

But there's no guarantee the galaxy you're looking at will have compatible life, or any life at all.

[Trixie]

The screwing of the defenders of Armageddon was done by the Adeptus Terra, not the Grey Knights.
Similarly, early accounts of mindwiping and murdering due to deamonic interaction are perpetrated by others - never the GKs themselves.

My impression was, it was only done by others because it was considered too wasteful to have GK sit around and lost time purging anyone, since they're urgently needed in two dozen places at once, hence, both then and now others do it instead?


But there's no guarantee the galaxy you're looking at will have compatible life, or any life at all.

Sure. But, my impression of the above post was that genestealers were supposed to be randomly thrown into extragalactic space with a hope oh hitting a galaxy at all, not looking for a specific places in these galaxies...

Which, once you realize that that extragalactic space is so large and empty a big galaxy compared to it is smaller than planet compared to galaxy, makes little sense.

[Brother Oni]

All this genestealer talk has reminded me of something: can orks currently be implanted and affected by genestealers? I remember some old rules for ork/stealer hybrids, but I believe that was before orks got retconned into ambulatory fungus.

[Bouregard]

All this genestealer talk has reminded me of something: can orks currently be implanted and affected by genestealers? I remember some old rules for ork/stealer hybrids, but I believe that was before orks got retconned into ambulatory fungus.

According to Ciaphas Cain Novels is it possible.

[The Glyphstone]

And what exactly changed in them he needs to change anything?

In fact, "new" Necrons are more similar to Cain's ones than the old, IMHO.

Cain's scared to death of the Necrons. How well do you think he'll react if/when they start talking to him? And they will, because his luck will have him end up face-to-face with a Lord or Overlord.

It'd be a big shift in the Cainverse 'view' of Necrons to acknowledge them as anything other than faceless boogeymen of doom. A big paradigm shift for the chief protagonist, at least.

[Cheesegear]

And if you believe Eisenhorn, Czevak, Ravenor, Gaunt or Ventris will die I have a few Cadian pylons for sale for really small amount of teef :P

It's always possible that something terrible will happen to them. Like Eisenhorn getting his knees shot out. Or the fact that Czevak did die (he got better), Ravenor is in a box, and a lot of terrible things happen to Ventris. Alaric goes through some horrors and barely makes it out.

When Fischig rocks up, I actually did expect Eisenhorn to die. It was near the end, and that would set the final tone of the series.
Jaq Draco dies. Shot in the head by his story's version of Fischig.

It's not about dying per se. It's about suspense. Nothing bad will ever happen to Cain, because that's not the tone of the story. Because of how the Cain archetype works, I know that he will never be in any danger and he will escape/Jurgen his way out of every situation.

One time Cain lost two fingers...OH CAIN MY BABY, ARE YOU OKAY!?
...That was Necrons.


Oh, and if you really want unkillable characters, Roboute, Russ, Dorn & co *gasp!* will (with 100% certainty) survive their own series, too. Still, that's not the point of reading about them, IMHO.

Well, there I agree. But you're also asked to care about the Primarchs. Each of them is portrayed with human flaws and are often pushed to extreme actions because of those flaws. And we - as the reader - can relate to that. The only exception being Horus, whose Fall made absolutely no sense.

Cain is some kind of demigod. His 'flaws' aren't flaws at all, at least, not in a meaningful way that matters. "Wah wah wah, I don't want to be here. jk lols. Watch me win at everything." And every single story goes that way.

[The Glyphstone]

I still think that if you're looking for permanent horrible things to happen to Cain, it's like complaining because the Three Stooges never accidentally ruptured each other's corneas with eye pokes or inflicted medical comas with frying pans. Cain is comedy, or at least as close to it as 40K gets.

[Cheesegear]

Cain is comedy, or at least as close to it as 40K gets.

That doesn't mean it doesn't have to have any depth. That doesn't mean that every plot in every book needs to be the same formula with Deus Ex Jurgens abound.

Maybe if they explored the fact that they can't actually find where Cain comes from, nor can they find which Progenium/Commissariat he went to. Maybe if they actually explored that Cain might not be what he seems then I'd be interested.

Rincewind the 'Wizzard' has a much better story, even though he's the same character. :smallwink:

[BRC]

That doesn't mean it doesn't have to have any depth. That doesn't mean that every plot in every book needs to be the same formula with Deus Ex Jurgens abound.

Maybe if they explored the fact that they can't actually find where Cain comes from, nor can they find which Progenium/Commissariat he went to. Maybe if they actually explored that Cain might not be what he seems then I'd be interested.

Rincewind the 'Wizzard' has a much better story, even though he's the same character. :smallwink:

Eh, I don't think exploring Cain's origins will do anything besides giving a name to his homeworld. I mean, they could make a story about how his parents were mistakenly executed by a commissar who thought they were guard deserters or something, but I don't think that would really do much.

Exploring that Cain "Might not be what he seems" is kind of tricky, because the books are written from Cain's perspective. Cain SEEMS like some sort of Superhero commissar, he believes himself to be a pragmatic coward with bad luck, but his actions don't quite hold that out. The result is that he's effectively the guy everybody thinks he is, just snarkier. His character is already pretty well explored, his Big Secret is that he's scared, but ends up doing heroic stuff anyway.

Yes, we know nothing horrible will happen to Cain because these are written from the perspective of an Old, respected, and fairly intact Cain, but "The Heroes Succeed" is the rule for a hefty majority of fiction, especially Adventure and genre fiction like the Cain series. That's why authors like GRRM are famous for their willingness to kill off characters, because it's so unusual.

Now, that said, the Cain books do have a certain lack of depth or drama beyond "Oh No, look what that Wacky Cain guy has gotten himself into this time", but it's a little too late to fix that. We know Cain turns out okay, and he never really grows attached to other characters enough to raise the stakes on their behalf.

Basically, every charge you have leveled against the Cain books is 100% true. Cain is going to walk out of every problem unscathed and drowning in glory. We know the Formula.

And here's the thing, I still like the Cain books. I like that I can read a W40k story that dosn't feel obliged to make everything Dark and Gritty. Even Dan Abnett, whose work I very much enjoy, occasionally seems to mistake Tragedy for Depth and cynicism for intelligence. Cain stories are fun, in the same way that watching formulaic crime shows is fun.

[Brother Oni]

If it helps, think of the Cain books like the Blackadder Goes Forth TV series: hilarious hijinks set against a backdrop of unrelenting warfare and suffering.

All the comedy only serves to contrast with the bleak ending (although I'm not sure what ending the Cain series will have, since you know he makes it to retirement and survives another invasion).

[Tectonic Robot]

Oy, what's it about Warhammer 40k that makes people argue so much? It's insane, it is.

We still discussing Tau as opposed to Imperium, or is that arguement buried?

Also, anyone mind telling me what the new codex does, exactly, for the necrons?

[The Glyphstone]

Oy, what's it about Warhammer 40k that makes people argue so much? It's insane, it is.

We still discussing Tau as opposed to Imperium, or is that arguement buried?

Also, anyone mind telling me what the new codex does, exactly, for the necrons?

Mechanically? Tons, but that belongs in Tabletop Discussion.

Fluffwise, it gives them personality, basically. Oldcrons were Terminators IN SPAAACE - soulless, emotionless machines who existed for no reason except to purge all sentient life from the galaxy and serve their star-devouring gods. Newcrons are the survivors of an ancient, galaxy-spanning empire who ruled pretty much everything before the Eldar but lost their strength in a giant galactic war and went to sleep to recover, only to wake up and shake their walking sticks at the whippersnapper humans who built hive cities all over their lawns and set to work trying to reclaim their lost territory.