Dire weasel & wendigo [3.5]

[kulosle]

So some interesting questions to be had. I was peering around for some fun monsters and I find two kinda confusing.

The dire weasels description of attach, is this a form of grapple? How does it play into a grapple? Does being attached prevent it from making other bite attacks, if it had them?

The wendigo says that it's bite attack is it's only attack. Does this really prevent you from using any other weapon? That sounds like a rather large down side.

[Autolycus84]

I have no idea, but I too am willing to learn about the ways of the weasel, as my sorcerer buddy has one.

[Flickerdart]

The Dire Weasel's attach ability is not a grapple, it just has a clause that the weasel can only be removed by pinning. Normal grapple doesn't even work that way. If the Weasel had other attacks, it could make them as normal. Do note that by RAW, the Weasel can't release an opponent once it has latched on, so if things turn sour, you might lose it.

[Urpriest]

The wendigo says that it's bite attack is it's only attack. Does this really prevent you from using any other weapon? That sounds like a rather large down side.

Interesting. They're supposed to advance by character class, so it would seem really weird for it to work this way. It might mean that the bite is the only natural attack, or that it replaces all other natural attacks. The wording is a little odd all round, and I've never seen an entry phrased quite that way before.

[Campbellk8105]

Interestingly enough, in a campaign I was playing yesterday. My Druid with greenbound summoning (of doom) used summon natures ally, and I summoned 4 dire weasels. All 4 weasels bit and attached to a level 18 NPC. In a matter of one round, the weasels did 15 con damage and killed him. Dire weasels are my new favorites summons from low level monsters.

I also think it's funny that they are 10ft long and weigh 700lbs yet they have 13 HP. Just kinda makes me giggle.

[hex0]

I also think it's funny that they are 10ft long and weigh 700lbs yet they have 13 HP. Just kinda makes me giggle.

Think of them as fanged pool noodles that somehow way too much.

[Flickerdart]

Interestingly enough, in a campaign I was playing yesterday. My Druid with greenbound summoning (of doom) used summon natures ally, and I summoned 4 dire weasels. All 4 weasels bit and attached to a level 18 NPC. In a matter of one round, the weasels did 15 con damage and killed him. Dire weasels are my new favorites summons from low level monsters.
How did they even hit a level 18 character with +6 to-hit?

[hex0]

How did they even hit a level 18 character with +6 to-hit?

I was wondering as well. Maybe flanking bonus and/or attacking someone who is busy being grappled by pool noodles.

Maybe it was a level 18 commoner or something?

[Campbellk8105]

With greenbound summoning they get a +6 to str, making the bite be a +9 to hit. 1 dire weasel missed, 2 of them I rolled a 16, and an 18. The last I rolled a natural 20. Also, our bard was playing and gave them an additional +2 str, and +2 to hit. For a total of +12 to hit. The two normal hits did 3 con, the other did 4. The one that crit did 8 con(4x2).

My DM doesn't optimize or really equip his bad guys well. We weren't supposed to really fight them as that they (5 level 18's) were supposed to sneak in and kidnap the princess we were protecting.

To also show the inexperience, the sneaky level 18's he made, he said they rolled a 20 on the die +their hide, and they got a 41... Our group of 11 characters are all level 10 and we had two level 16's with us. I do not know how we did, but we ended up killing all 5 level 18's. They all had two +10 scimitars. They barely managed to drop 2 level 10's.

[hex0]

To also show the inexperience, the sneaky level 18's he made, he said they rolled a 20 on the die +their hide, and they got a 41... Our group of 11 characters are all level 10 and we had two level 16's with us. I do not know how we did, but we ended up killing all 5 level 18's. They all had two +10 scimitars. They barely managed to drop 2 level 10's.

That's....a lot of experience points...

[Flickerdart]

With greenbound summoning they get a +6 to str, making the bite be a +9 to hit. 1 dire weasel missed, 2 of them I rolled a 16, and an 18. The last I rolled a natural 20. Also, our bard was playing and gave them an additional +2 str, and +2 to hit. For a total of +12 to hit. The two normal hits did 3 con, the other did 4. The one that crit did 8 con(4x2).
Um, no. The blood drain isn't part of the bite attack. It triggers every round that the weasel is attached, and when they've clamped on, they've been attached for 0 rounds and drain nothing.

[Campbellk8105]

That's....a lot of experience points...

Yes, indeed that is a ton of experience points, especially for a bunch of level 10's. However and unfortunately, the DM has a 2 level cap per encounter that we can achieve... So all those nom nom exp points go to waste...

[Flickerdart]

Yes, indeed that is a ton of experience points, especially for a bunch of level 10's. However and unfortunately, the DM has a 2 level cap per encounter that we can achieve... So all those nom nom exp points go to waste...
By the rules, a character can only level up once per XP increase, and anything over that can only put him 1 XP shy of the next level.

[Campbellk8105]

Um, no. The blood drain isn't part of the bite attack. It triggers every round that the weasel is attached, and when they've clamped on, they've been attached for 0 rounds and drain nothing.

Yes, I know the drain happens after they are attached for a round. However, my DM rules that since the bite was a crit, the Attach was acting as a crit as well. I also managed to leave out of of the
Most importants reasons as to why the weasels remained attached. Our sorcerer blasted him with a Crit'd ray of enfeeblement (I believe that was the spell used, may have been something different) and dropped his strength score to a measely 6 or 7. The NPC did not win the grapple yo remove them.

[Flickerdart]

The NPC did not win the grapple yo remove them.
And he didn't just wring their 13-HP necks why?

[Campbellk8105]

By the rules, a character can only level up once per XP increase, and anything over that can only put him 1 XP shy of the next level.

In our campaigns, we just accept the 2 levels and not the 1 exp away from the next level.

As to why he didn't wring their puny little 13 HP necks... Is a good question. Again, hes a newer DM, and we never really do grapples all that much, and he tends to forget you can still do certain attacks while grappled.

[Flickerdart]

As to why he didn't wring their puny little 13 HP necks... Is a good question. Again, hes a newer DM, and we never really do grapples all that much, and he tends to forget you can still do certain attacks while grappled.
He wasn't grappled, though. Attach is not Improved Grab.

[Campbellk8105]

He wasn't grappled, though. Attach is not Improved Grab.

Attach was ruled as a grapple since they are Attached and effectively (as in our DM's eyes) grappled since when you're grappled you're locked in melee with another person/monster.

Also, I apologize for this discussion straying away from what was originally intended.

[kulosle]

Just so we can see the Dire weasel in a different way, lets make it a were dire weasel. Now this player has a 11 BAB lets say. Could he bite him three times and then stay attached the last time? Can the weasel not voluntarily open its moth and get off? That seems rather restrictive. I would think that a lot of DM's would rule that this is some form of grappling, but yes by RAW it isn't. So could I make this attack and then grapple them?

Also whats the LA on wendigos? If that was truly a rule intended to be followed then I think that the LA should be 0 or a negative, maybe it should vary depending on the number of other forms of attacks the base creature had. Is there an errata to the Fiend Folio?

[kulosle]

So I just reread wendigo and the example has spells listed from his 4 levels of sorcerer. It even says under the wendigo's special attack spells and some of those spells require an attack roll. I think this should trump the poorly worded text.