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Org
2011-12-03, 11:54 PM
Okay, so I had my first Pathfinder session today. I was playing a wizard, a mix of a conjurerand illusionist. The story was that we had to investigate the bad part of a town to find some evil spellcaster. We eventually find his tower and ascend. I say, stay here a moment guys, I have a plan. I usemy hat of disguise, making myself look like a holy paladin or something.I use light on my sword and use gost sounds to make it seem like harps are playing. I go up and confront the guy with two silent images. He is standing in a summoning circle with what looked like a corpse in the middle of like a wife of an npc we met earlier. I shout for him to stop. However he manages to see through my illusion, but one of my allies steps up and goes through the circle which snapped his connection and possibly sent him to another plane.

So, there we are,in a room with a dead girl and no proof for the mayor. Everyone kinda starts looting the room and whatnot, when I have an idea. I go and cut off the girls head so we can take her back as proof. Woops, looks like the cleric was about to check if she was dead. GM informs us she was alive, but now isn't. Woops. Two people start to freak out and blame me. I call them out on metagaming, because even though we handt k own she was dead, it looked like so give me a break. Girl with gun doesnt stand down, gives me a warning to put away my sword. I dont. She drops me to -5 HP. Ouch. The group is kinda flipping their **** now, and I am too. They almost leave me, but then dont and we kinda half fall/escape through a window. End of session.

But it still bothers me now. Yes, I chopped her head off, but I dont feel like the CHAOTIC EVIL party member, or so I remember her to be ce, flipped out. Did I do something terribly wrong, or were the others overreacting!

Anxe
2011-12-04, 12:12 AM
Well I don't think assuming she was dead was that big a goof.

If she was dead cutting off her head was still stupid. The mayor is going to want to bury the girl's body intact. Why would he want just the head? He'd see it as mutilation of the corpse. If you didn't think you could transport the body, then you wouldn't really need any proof that she was dead. The mayor should just believe what you said.

So you did two stupid things on top of each other. Your character just committed manslaughter and corpse mutilation. It's definitely chaotic, but not evil since it was unintentional. And the other players have a right to be upset at your character and probably not want to adventure with him.

As for OOC upsetness... The DM should have just said that she was alive and shouldn't be decapitated.

Org
2011-12-04, 12:15 AM
Bringing back the head is the sort of tropey-fantasy proof provider I stick too. Like if you were to slay an evil knight you might bring the head to the king or whatnot.

Edit: Clarity: The gunner was CE, I am Neutral IIRC.

Zeofar
2011-12-04, 12:17 AM
Bringing back the head is the sort of tropey-fantasy proof provider I stick too. Like if you were to slay an evil knight you might bring the head to the king or whatnot.

Decapitation is usually considered a sign of disrespect. Hence why it's okay to do with evil things you killed, but it isn't typical in, say, any other situation.

Coidzor
2011-12-04, 12:24 AM
Well, kind of odd that the cleric didn't do that immediately and everyone commenced to looting.

Kind of jerkish of the DM to not afford any kind of safety net there either, especially with what the cleric's player had in mind.

Sounds like you got scapegoated, really. Possibly schroedinger's victim'd too.

But, in general, heads are for outlaws and those who are to be punished. If you're recovering a murder vic, on the other hand, you generally bring back the whole thing.

Xuc Xac
2011-12-04, 12:25 AM
If you want to prove that you defeated an evil monster or something, you can bring back its head. If you want to tell someone that his wife is dead, you can just come back and say "I'm sorry. Your wife is dead." You absolutely do NOT come back to some guy and say "Your wife is dead. SEE! Here's her head! No foolin' this time!"

Org
2011-12-04, 12:27 AM
The head was to be used to scapegoat her as the sorcerer.

Serpentine
2011-12-04, 12:29 AM
I think, based on your account, the biggest goof was the DM's: they didn't give your character an opportunity to realise the woman was still alive.

It was pretty dumb of you, out of character, to not think to check.
It was pretty dumb of your character, in-game, to not check - and it was a pretty bizarre idea anyway, which you companions may well have been justified in being disgusted and/or disturbed by.
It was pretty dumb of your companions to - apparently - assume malice when it was just stupidity.
But all that could've been mitigated if your DM had just said "wait, do a spot check first. Okay, you see some movement in the chest. Cleric, do a Heal check".

prufock
2011-12-04, 01:25 AM
Not going to lie, cutting off someone's head without at least checking to see if they're dead was pretty foolish. Even if you have no ranks in Heal, checking to see if someone is breathing or has a heartbeat is only like a DC 10.

But the biggest problem here is the metagame one. The cleric was "about to" check her, but didn't. Since he/she didn't have time to do so, the DM shouldn't have told you that she was alive. If he hadn't made that goof, the rest of the party would have probably assumed as you did.

Ziegander
2011-12-04, 01:29 AM
Explain to us again why, even if you thought the woman was dead, cutting her head off was a good idea, please?

NikitaDarkstar
2011-12-04, 03:22 AM
I'd say the group has reasons to be upset with you, but in all honesty the entire situation is to blame on everyone. The cleric should have checked if she was still alive right away. You should have realized that cutting off a head is pretty darn disrespectful, the rest of the group didn't have to loot first, and the DM should just have slapped all of you in the face for being stupid/slow/to damn greedy, but since he didn't he's just as much to blame as everyone else.

I'd suggest that the next time you meet up you talk the situation over, come to some sort of understanding, possibly go back and say "hey these moments of stupidity didn't happen, it went like this instead." and move on.

Shyftir
2011-12-04, 03:45 AM
I'm gonna say that if the DM described her as looking corpse-like he or she has equal blame share as you here.

Cespenar
2011-12-04, 05:03 AM
I think, based on your account, the biggest goof was the DM's: they didn't give your character an opportunity to realise the woman was still alive.

This. There's a reason passive checks exist.

Also, actions don't happen instantly. When you say you're about to decapitate the girl, most of your group should be able to recognize the action before you complete it, and possibly can stop you.

DMing fail.

Edit: Hah, I just reread it and saw that the DM said afterwards that the girl was alive but now is dead. I up the verdict to an epic fail.

Edit 2: Minor unrelated note: The DM probably doesn't know that illusions don't offer a save before you interact with them as well. There's a chance that the wizard got a detection spell going, but my money is on it not being that.

Viktyr Gehrig
2011-12-04, 05:39 AM
To Hell with retconning it. When your character wakes up, he explains he was only trying to help and why is everyone so mad at him? It's not like he did anything wrong.

What do you mean he shouldn't have cut her head off? You needed proof, didn't you? I mean, the man's not just going to take you at your word; that would be preposterous.

And now you keep doing things like this. When the other PCs start to give you "that look", you ask, "What? Not okay?" and then you make a big show of how patient you are, how tolerant you are, for putting up with their silly little rules so that they'll stop complaining.

They'll remember this campaign for the rest of their lives.

Heliomance
2011-12-04, 07:50 AM
To Hell with retconning it. When your character wakes up, he explains he was only trying to help and why is everyone so mad at him? It's not like he did anything wrong.

What do you mean he shouldn't have cut her head off? You needed proof, didn't you? I mean, the man's not just going to take you at your word; that would be preposterous.

And now you keep doing things like this. When the other PCs start to give you "that look", you ask, "What? Not okay?" and then you make a big show of how patient you are, how tolerant you are, for putting up with their silly little rules so that they'll stop complaining.

They'll remember this campaign for the rest of their lives.

I like this idea. Turn it into a character quirk :smallsmile:

elpollo
2011-12-04, 08:31 AM
Did the DM ever say "She is dead"? If not then yes. If so... well, let's just say I'm glad you'll never be delivering me any bad news.


Seriously, her head? You couldn't have carted her whole body back on a horse or something?

RandomNPC
2011-12-04, 10:18 AM
DM needs to read up on the illusions you were using, anytime an NPC of mine has some detect spells going it's because the party has a reputation for pulling this kind of thing.

DM needs to communicate the difference between corpse and corpse like a lot better.

Party needs to chill out of character, in character however, as long as they stay in character any amount of flipping out (If they know she was alive) would make sense.

That being said, the first response to your post I completely agree with. Later on you said she was being scapegoated as a bad guy, so as long as your character isn't good and didn't know she was alive, the action was fine.

Also, I love Viktyrs idea about making it a quirk, catch a pickpocket, go to lop his arm off at the elbow, let the party stop you. Catch a liar, go for his tongue, someone flees from the law, try to take a leg mid-shin. It's a great character tweak, and I wana steal it for a character someday...

boomwolf
2011-12-04, 11:10 AM
The head was to be used to scapegoat her as the sorcerer.

Reasoning right here folks.

Yea, your action is STRICTLY chaotic-evil, no questioning it. heck even some of my chaotic-evil characters would have trouble with this...

Even if she WAS dead, framing the victim in order to make things easier on yourself is really, really wrong...and considering she was alive, even if you didn't know (and it's your fault not to make sure), makes the whole deal that much worse.

Most of my characters would be willing to kill over this, and I include chaotic and evil (and chaotic-evil) in that list...

You did something wrong...big time...I hope you seriously see how wrong it is or something with your OOC moral standing is seriously flawed...

nedz
2011-12-04, 11:50 AM
Reminds me of an old joke

Barbarian: "Cleric, are you going to Raise Fred?"
Cleric: "Better make sure Fred is dead before I bother with a Raise"
Barbarian chops off Fred's Head
Barbarian: "OK, you can raise him now"
:smallbiggrin:

Back to the point: Are you playing a low Int Wizard ?
Or maybe you dumped Wis or something?
Its a typical SNAFU

Steward
2011-12-04, 12:34 PM
Even if she WAS dead, framing the victim in order to make things easier on yourself is really, really wrong...and considering she was alive, even if you didn't know (and it's your fault not to make sure), makes the whole deal that much worse.

Yeah, when I saw that I was kind of baffled. Cutting off the head of a murder victim to 'prove' that she's dead is ridiculous, from an OOC and an IC perspective. Cutting off her head so you can frame her for her own murder is... a pretty stupid IC decision unless you're trying to portray an amoral or evil character. Certainly it's not a logical action for someone who is supposed to be more or less a decent person.

Ziegander
2011-12-04, 01:18 PM
To Hell with retconning it. When your character wakes up, he explains he was only trying to help and why is everyone so mad at him? It's not like he did anything wrong.

What do you mean he shouldn't have cut her head off? You needed proof, didn't you? I mean, the man's not just going to take you at your word; that would be preposterous.

I want to know exactly what we're talking about, from Org, before I make a judgement call on what happened. Things aren't adding up, and there are clearly details and context left out of his posts that we need to be aware of in order to know how to respond to this situation.

1) Org says his group is investigating a bad part of town to find an evil spellcaster.

2) Org says his group is in a room with a "dead" girl and no "proof" for the mayor.

3) Org says he cuts the head off of the dead girl.

4) Org says his group all turns on him, starts yelling, etc...

5) Org says that the head was to be used to scapegoat the girl as the sorcerer.

NOW. There are plenty of holes in this account. For example, what proof did the group not have for the mayor? He hasn't told us they needed any sort of proof for anything. Did Org or didn't he discuss with the group cutting her head off before he simply walked up and did it? Is Org's character chaotic evil? What alignments are the other characters in Org's group?

I can fill in the blanks to my questions myself, but I can't know if I'm correct. If the group was sent by the mayor to locate and slay some evil spellcaster in the bad part of town and if Org didn't discuss the plan of scapegoating the girl with her severed head as the evil spellcaster, and if Org or any of his group are not evil, then, well, cutting the head off of the girl was a pretty insanely bad course of action to take.

Wildefox
2011-12-04, 01:53 PM
The head was to be used to scapegoat her as the sorcerer.

That's ... that's pretty evil. "We'll just make it look like the victim did it! And people will believe us because ... I cut off her head?"

Org
2011-12-04, 02:28 PM
Okay, lets see. I would think that we would need proof to confirm our slaying of the spellcaster. However, we didn't; he escaped into another plane when we stepped into his circle. So, we have a room with a corpse that was never described by the DM (We were using maptools. There was blood everywhere. She was in the middle of the circle. Not moving. Not talking), and no dead wizard or live wizard. We need to get some proof so...yeah, head. I did not discuss it which was bad yes. True neutral mercenary wizard. Most of the group is chaotic neutral and one is chaotic evil.

Ziegander
2011-12-04, 02:38 PM
I did not discuss it which was bad yes.

And that's really the big deal. Remember, MOST PEOPLE are True Neutral. Do you think most people would randomly cut the heads off of people just so they could get a paycheck? I don't. They might consider it, sure, but I'd say that most people would decide on a different course of action.

If you had talked it over with the group, chances are they would have said, "no, that's crazy. you're crazy," and then they could have determined that the girl was alive. Then you could have returned to the mayor with the barely living girl, told him how you encountered the spellcaster but he got away, and you'd have a witness to corroborate your story. You might not get paid, but you also wouldn't have killed an innocent person and involved your allies in murder without their consent. So, yes, you did something very wrong.

MickJay
2011-12-04, 02:39 PM
All other possible 'fails' aside, you have already identified the "wrong" thing you did - you should've consulted rest of the party before taking action. Are they okay with the idea to frame the victim? Are they okay with chopping off her head? Acting on impulse, on your own, tends to lead to more bad situations in RPGs than anything else.

navar100
2011-12-04, 09:21 PM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World%27s_funniest_joke

Coidzor
2011-12-04, 09:31 PM
All other possible 'fails' aside, you have already identified the "wrong" thing you did - you should've consulted rest of the party before taking action. Are they okay with the idea to frame the victim? Are they okay with chopping off her head? Acting on impulse, on your own, tends to lead to more bad situations in RPGs than anything else.

Not giving the rest of the party even a chance to react or notice this on the part of the DM is equally bad, however. Even Gygax would, y'know, ask people if they were sure they wanted to do something.

Steward
2011-12-04, 11:20 PM
Okay, lets see. I would think that we would need proof to confirm our slaying of the spellcaster. However, we didn't; he escaped into another plane when we stepped into his circle. So, we have a room with a corpse that was never described by the DM (We were using maptools. There was blood everywhere. She was in the middle of the circle. Not moving. Not talking), and no dead wizard or live wizard. We need to get some proof so...yeah, head. I did not discuss it which was bad yes. True neutral mercenary wizard. Most of the group is chaotic neutral and one is chaotic evil.

Didn't your character realize that the mayor would probably notice that the head of the 'sorcerer' (a man) looks an awful lot like the head of a woman who went missing from his town recently?

I get what you were trying to do but I don't understand how cutting off the girl's head would have been convincing proof. I don't even understand why you needed physical proof anyway at this point. If you were hired to kill the spellcaster, you haven't actually done that yet. If your goal was only to find him, well, couldn't you prove to the mayor that you did that by showing him the evil sorcery tower with all of the evil sorcery stuff inside (including the human sacrifice on the altar)?

Because the wisdom of your idea is so ambiguous, it's really important for you to have gotten the go ahead from other party members first. If it were me, I would not have attacked you IC but I would have been baffled (both IC and OOC) by your decision. Your plan doesn't really make a whole lot of sense to me and I feel as if something like that should really be put to the entire party to make sure that they understand what your plan is.

The DM definitely should have stopped you to ask you if you were sure though.

Mando Knight
2011-12-04, 11:30 PM
We need to get some proof so...yeah, head. I did not discuss it which was bad yes. True neutral mercenary wizard.
So. You don't have proof for doing what you didn't, you see a bloodied woman on the ground, apparently unconscious. Your reaction is to cut off the head of the woman (without checking her vitals) and present it as the proof you needed.

That isn't TN Mercenary behavior. TN generally assumes you have at least the "y'know, maybe we should check to see if the girl's alive" bit, and maybe some respect for the recently departed, as well as some modicum of enlightened self-interest (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enlightened_self_interest). A mercenary gets the job done, and in order to ensure that he can continue his mercenary ways, an intelligent or effective mercenary gets the job done right. Giving people a false impression that you did the job correctly is simply bad business.

Djinn_in_Tonic
2011-12-05, 12:02 AM
True neutral Chaotic Evil mercenary wizard. Most of the group is chaotic neutral and one is chaotic evil.

I have to agree with the others here. While you may feel you have a reason for your actions, it's a spontaneous, ill-conceived, duplicitous, self-serving action (in-character, that is...nothing against you personally here :smallbiggrin:) that can only result in misery and/or pain for those around you and, in this case, cost someone her life.

Definitely Chaotic Evil there.

Oracle_Hunter
2011-12-05, 12:07 AM
Decapitating the girl was a bad idea in any case --- why not just bring the whole body? :smallconfused:

That said, your group flipping out OOC is bad form on their part, but something that does occasionally happen in the heat of the moment. IMHO, this situation is one where the DM must step in to cool down everyone else and keep the game intact. The fact that your DM did not do this was Bad.

On everything else, it is more of an issue of style. Not every DM gives Players "points of no return" when they're about to do something stupid. This one apparently does not. IMHO, it is better to err on the side of leniency (because communication is imperfect) but I can understand why some DMs operate differently.

* * *

What exactly did you want to get out of asking this question? If it is understanding, I hope this helps. If it is something else, I'm not sure any answer can help.

Coidzor
2011-12-05, 12:16 AM
IMHO, it is better to err on the side of leniency (because communication is imperfect) but I can understand why some DMs operate differently.

I don't, because then you run into issues where players state mutually conflicting actions at the same time. Then you're basically relying on who the DM likes better to decide who actually gets to act instead of allowing the players to react to the opposing actions of one another.

Kind of like this one where the cleric's stated action of checking the body for life signs apparently didn't afford him the ability to notice the weakling wizard getting a decapitatory tool and prepping to decapitate the body and object. :smallyuk:

Maerok
2011-12-05, 01:52 AM
She didn't wake up when you began to cut through her neck?

nedz
2011-12-05, 06:13 AM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World%27s_funniest_joke

Yeah - thats the one :smallbiggrin:

DoctorGlock
2011-12-05, 08:05 AM
SO, let me see if I am following here:

You are TN
Mayor: Kill the sorcerer that has beset our town with terror and evil
Party: Sure gov
You reach the lair where there is a bloody unmoving body on the ground and an evil sorcerer cackling. The sorcerer escapes in the ensuing fight or whatever.
Party: Let's loot the place!
You want to get paid
You: We don't have the sorcerer's body, but we have a convenient corpse right here! We'll behead her and say she was the sorceress since no one in town has seen the sorc's face. Boom, instant proof of job complete!.

So, you decide to chop apart a murder vic's body to fabricate some evidence. You do not bother to check for vitals or even inspect the body.

So, we have the following "what did I do wrong?"

1: Murder, maybe a case can be made for negligent homocide.
2: Defacement of a corpse- no last rights, didn't bother to check, just decide to get to hacking up an innocent girl. I'd put that at chaotic at the very least, possibly evil.
3: Breach of contract
4: Fraud

Frankly, even had the vic been 100% dead on arrival everything but the first would still stand. Ok, so definite CE tendencies.

Why did you assume no one in the town would recognize the girl, she was an NPCs wife for crying out loud? If you thought they would and that they would believe she was the sorc, then you are really setting someone up to take the plunge for self profit and are very much CE in alignment. I doubt the party shares the CE sentiments so they decided to have it out with you.

I'd say what you did wrong was make to many assumptions and a noticeable lack of moral fiber, even TN wouldn't do that.

The DM likely should have allowed the others to notice it in time to throw rocks at you or something and the incident could have been avoided, but that slip is more forgivable than deciding to suddenly go chaotic evil/chaotic stupid in the middle of an adventure. The only blame I can place on the DM is if he said "dead girl" or "corpse" in his description, because the DM sets the world and that is a definite statement. Still does not forgive the other stuff. Did he use something that definite of did he say something like "unmoving body"?

Jerthanis
2011-12-06, 04:57 PM
Since I think we've pretty well demonstrated why these actions could be considered 'wrong' in various ways, let me make a suggestion for future behaviour.

When you're doing something, explain not just what you want to do, but what you hope to get out of it when you describe your action. Say in this instance, "I cut off the corpse's head, we'll say it's the sorcerer's head when we get back to town, otherwise we might not get paid." Sometimes vocalizing this sort of thing aloud will let you realize it sounds unlikely, or let the DM provide you additional information regarding the situation that you might not have been clued in on yet that might discourage that thought process.

Lord Il Palazzo
2011-12-06, 05:31 PM
Not giving the rest of the party even a chance to react or notice this on the part of the DM is equally bad, however. Even Gygax would, y'know, ask people if they were sure they wanted to do something.Yeah, were I DMing this scenario, my reaction wouldn't so much be "OK, you killed her" as "You're sure you want to do that?" or even "Why exactly to you behead the body?" or something else to start a dialog between the players about how to proceed. The choice of what your character does is ultimatley up to you (unless another character stop you somehow) but it at least deserves a little discussion first.

askandarion
2011-12-07, 12:12 PM
Everyone's piled in enough, so I won't talk about your actions, Org. I will note, though, that the DM poured some fuel on the fire by stating afterwards she had been alive. You made some judgment mistakes that can be played off in-character (as per that rather excellent suggestion) as an eventual quirk, but yeah, these were some definite DM fails too, and everyone needs a chance to calm down and discuss to get over the OOC anger.

And for future reference, note that the DM isn't going to throw you any bones or spend a lot of effort on describing things in the game clearly, so any assumptions you (or the other players) make are at your peril.

Sillycomic
2011-12-07, 03:21 PM
I won't go into the wrongness of your actions in or out of character either. It seems as if that has been discussed (no pun intended) to death.

I think the reason the other players were so angry with your actions is simply because you didn't talk with them first. You basically made a group decision without informing your group.

How would you have liked it if even before the adventure started to go find this sorcerer... one of the other PC's ran off and came back 10 minutes later with a head and explained, "Hey, we can just use this as proof of a job well done."

Making a group decision for your group without even asking them might be a cool character quirk, but just be expected to have these kinds of arguments a lot.

Reminds me of Belkar actually. If that's what you were going for, good on you... I don't think I could role play that out.

GungHo
2011-12-07, 04:17 PM
If you want to prove that you defeated an evil monster or something, you can bring back its head. If you want to tell someone that his wife is dead, you can just come back and say "I'm sorry. Your wife is dead." You absolutely do NOT come back to some guy and say "Your wife is dead. SEE! Here's her head! No foolin' this time!"
Ah... this is the version of CSI that shows on our Evil Earth alternate.

Madara
2011-12-07, 05:11 PM
Actually, it appears the characters will not know you committed any wrong, the GM had to tell you guys afterwards that she had been alive, since your character beheaded her before the cleric could check, no one knows she had been alive. So for the other characters the Attack you is a meta-game decision for roleplaying purposes. That, or they really strongly believe you ruined the body.

So, when your character wakes up, you ask the what the reason they brought you to the brink of death was, and your character can tell them how they've lost your trust. Make them earn your trust, make them the guilty ones.

So, from an in game standpoint, just have your character say it was a cultural misunderstanding, and where your character comes from, your people don't treat bodies the same. They're the guilty ones.

Cirrylius
2011-12-07, 05:18 PM
The DM describes an "unmoving body", with blood everywhere; that could easily be parlayed into "corpse". Considering the fact that the whole group's first action was "loot", it sounds like the party drew the same conclusion as you. The cleric should've checked the body first thing, unless he was a non-good cleric (or just assumed she was dead with the rest of you).

As for the whole decapitation thing...


1: Murder, maybe a case can be made for negligent homocide.
2: Defacement of a corpse- no last rights, didn't bother to check, just decide to get to hacking up an innocent girl. I'd put that at chaotic at the very least, possibly evil.
3: Breach of contract
4: Fraud

1) Murder: If the group's understanding was that the girl was dead, then this would be manslaughter at worst. No Chaotic or Evil intent should be taken from a completely unintentional, unexpected killing.
2) Defacement: That's fairly Chaotic. But not Evil unless you did it purposefully to be a ****.
3) Breach of Contract: Technically Chaotic, but considering that your concern is not getting paid when you fulfilled the spirit of the agreement, I wouldn't consider it HUGELY Chaotic.
4) Fraud: Pretty Chaotic, and it's Evil if you considered the possibility of the victim's character assassination and her husband's reaction BEFORE you beheaded her. Overall, IMO, it should only be considered a slightly Chaotic Evil action, for a TN mercenary anyway. "She's dead. She ain't getting any deader. What's the problem?" Callous, but not malicious.

Overall, I'd consider this an unusually callous, untrustworthy day for a TN character; the whole point of the alignment is doing what seems like a good idea at the time. Don't get me wrong- this was a BAD IDEA. But I could see how it might have seemed like a victimless crime at first blush. Not the character's finest hour, it goes without saying, but the whole thing was only REALLY FUBAR because of a whole-gaming-group mistake. You're getting the blame because it WAS your action that started the snowball, but you weren't the only one at fault here.



So, from an in game standpoint, just have your character say it was a cultural misunderstanding, and where your character comes from, your people don't treat bodies the same. They're the guilty ones.

You play a lot of Evil characters, don't you?:smallwink:

Belril Duskwalk
2011-12-07, 05:23 PM
Actually, it appears the characters will not know you committed any wrong, the GM had to tell you guys afterwards that she had been alive, since your character beheaded her before the cleric could check, no one knows she had been alive.

Normally, when one beheads a dead body, you might see a small amount of blood leak out, if it's a fresh kill. Less fresh it will be mostly coagulated, no bleeding at all. Now if you, like Org's character, beheaded a living body, the heart is still pumping and the blood is going to be spurting out rather quickly. So actually beheading her would be a rather good proof of her not being dead before beheading.

Cirrylius
2011-12-07, 05:43 PM
Yeah. She'd spray like a fire hydrant.

Wait, that raises a question. Where did the REST of the blood in the room come from? OP said there was blood before the combat started.

Zale
2011-12-07, 07:15 PM
The magical blood fairies?

Though, I am curious as to what the evul sorcerer did to the girl so that she wouldn't even wake up when someone was slicing her head off.

And as it has been said, how did everyone else figure out she had been alive?

Perhaps a wizard did it?

dps
2011-12-07, 07:57 PM
Breach of Contract: Technically Chaotic, but considering that your concern is not getting paid when you fulfilled the spirit of the agreement, I wouldn't consider it HUGELY Chaotic.


Since we have very little info on the nature of any agreement the group had with the person who gave them the quest, I don't think that we have any basis to say that they fulfilled the spirit of the contract.

Cirrylius
2011-12-07, 08:27 PM
Since we have very little info on the nature of any agreement the group had with the person who gave them the quest, I don't think that we have any basis to say that they fulfilled the spirit of the contract.
From the sound of it, they were contracted by the Mayor to kill an evil sorcerer. Since the sorcerer was banished to another plane when they screwed up the ritual, that's probably close enough for government work...

he escaped into another plane when we stepped into his circle.
...oh. He ESCAPED. That changes things. Significantly more Chaotic, then.

Rorrik
2011-12-08, 11:04 AM
Making a group decision for your group without even asking them might be a cool character quirk, but just be expected to have these kinds of arguments a lot.


Over the holidays I'm slotted to play a rogue in a family campaign, definitely considering taking this tact.

Tyndmyr
2011-12-08, 11:22 AM
Okay, so I had my first Pathfinder session today. I was playing a wizard, a mix of a conjurerand illusionist. The story was that we had to investigate the bad part of a town to find some evil spellcaster. We eventually find his tower and ascend. I say, stay here a moment guys, I have a plan. I usemy hat of disguise, making myself look like a holy paladin or something.I use light on my sword and use gost sounds to make it seem like harps are playing. I go up and confront the guy with two silent images. He is standing in a summoning circle with what looked like a corpse in the middle of like a wife of an npc we met earlier. I shout for him to stop. However he manages to see through my illusion, but one of my allies steps up and goes through the circle which snapped his connection and possibly sent him to another plane.

So far, so good.


So, there we are,in a room with a dead girl and no proof for the mayor. Everyone kinda starts looting the room and whatnot, when I have an idea. I go and cut off the girls head so we can take her back as proof.

That is...well, chaotic, at least. Hacking off heads of monsters for trophies is pretty fine. Hacking off heads of the NPCs wife? Probably not so much. You really think that "hey, here's yer wife's head. We didn't want to bother with the body." will get a good response?

Also, if you get "great ideas" that involve hacking things apart with a sword, and do not first tell your team...chaotic is a pretty fair description.


Woops, looks like the cleric was about to check if she was dead. GM informs us she was alive, but now isn't. Woops. Two people start to freak out and blame me. I call them out on metagaming, because even though we handt k own she was dead, it looked like so give me a break.

You wouldn't check a person first before decapitating them? That seems important. If the GM outright stated she was dead, well then...poor description on his part. But if he merely described it in such a way that she sounded like she was likely dead, then you were definitely hasty.

Also, a simple heal check will give you cause of death. You killing someone now is a wee bit different from her being dead for a while. It wouldn't look anything like the same. Your accusations of metagaming are unjustified.


Girl with gun doesnt stand down, gives me a warning to put away my sword. I dont. She drops me to -5 HP. Ouch. The group is kinda flipping their **** now, and I am too. They almost leave me, but then dont and we kinda half fall/escape through a window. End of session.

Er, why WOULDNT you try to de-escalate the situation? If you don't want to fight the party, put away the sword. You can draw it relatively quickly anyway, and bullets to the face are bad. Sword won't block that anyhow. You want to apologize and explain yourself and be listened to, not stab people. Putting the sword away would have been logical.

From their perspective, you just randomly, without explanation, killed the person they are there to save. Now, you won't put away your weapon to talk it over. It doesn't look good.


But it still bothers me now. Yes, I chopped her head off, but I dont feel like the CHAOTIC EVIL party member, or so I remember her to be ce, flipped out. Did I do something terribly wrong, or were the others overreacting!

Your actions could reasonably be described as CE here. It's probably not strong enough to swap your alignment, but you kind of did invite a bit of flipping out with your actions.

Looking at the later posts, I'd say it only gets worse for you. Each additional bit of info revealed either removes a possible mitigating circumstance or makes it look worse. Planning fraud with the head? That's certainly not a good act. Also, probably not a good plan, given who she was.

I would suggest a lot of begging forgiveness, trying to explain your mistake as best as you can, and talking to the party in the future before trying crazy plans.

GungHo
2011-12-08, 11:54 AM
Since we have very little info on the nature of any agreement the group had with the person who gave them the quest, I don't think that we have any basis to say that they fulfilled the spirit of the contract.
Even Jim Adler, the Tough, Smart Lawyer would have a hard time saying "well, the contract didn't say he had to bring all of your wife back".

Friv
2011-12-08, 01:28 PM
4) Fraud: Pretty Chaotic, and it's Evil if you considered the possibility of the victim's character assassination and her husband's reaction BEFORE you beheaded her. Overall, IMO, it should only be considered a slightly Chaotic Evil action, for a TN mercenary anyway. "She's dead. She ain't getting any deader. What's the problem?" Callous, but not malicious.

Don't forget that it also means leaving a dangerous murderer on the loose, deliberately, because you can't be bothered to chase him down, and convincing everyone that he's dead so that you can get money out of them. I'd consider that a moderately evil action, although not enough to guarantee flipping alignment unless it's the sort of thing you do all the time without also being good.

Anyway, there is definitely enough blame to go around, here. You messed up pretty big, and the DM messed up pretty big too.

Cirrylius
2011-12-08, 03:50 PM
Don't forget that it also means leaving a dangerous murderer on the loose, deliberately, because you can't be bothered to chase him down, and convincing everyone that he's dead so that you can get money out of them.

I was assuming, in that quote, that they had accidentally glitched the sorcerer to another plane. Once I reread the relevant post, that the bastard had purposefully BAMF-ed away, I revised that opinion.

The Boz
2011-12-08, 07:38 PM
Actually, it appears the characters will not know you committed any wrong, the GM had to tell you guys afterwards that she had been alive, since your character beheaded her before the cleric could check, no one knows she had been alive. So for the other characters the Attack you is a meta-game decision for roleplaying purposes. That, or they really strongly believe you ruined the body.

Yeah, the other party members CLEARLY have no idea he just killed the girl. It's not like blood squirts fifteen feet from a decapitating execution or something obvious like that.

Cirrylius
2011-12-08, 10:15 PM
Yeah, the other party members CLEARLY have no idea he just killed the girl. It's not like blood squirts fifteen feet from a decapitating execution or something obvious like that.

Oops. My bad. I looked it up; if she was decapitated in one stroke, the blood would only have gone a couple of feet. If it took some time to slice off, it'd go somewhat further. It's probably not unreasonable to assume adventurers would notice the difference. Of course, I doubt the other players had thought of that when they went "ZOMGWTF!!?1?" so that would still make it metagaming.

Sidmen
2011-12-09, 06:46 AM
Actually, it wouldn't make it metagaming, because the cleric used his heal check to notice that she was alive, until her head was abruptly removed.

While, yeah, maybe a little metagaming, but all the cleric had to do was scream "Why did you just butcher her!" to elicit the same reaction from virtually any sane group of people. Personally, I would've killed the OP, for fear that the enemy sorcerer was controlling him from his "gone" place - possibly just invisible.

The Boz
2011-12-09, 09:32 AM
Yeah, when things like that happen in my groups, I usually end up killing PCs, if I'm a player. If I'm a DM, I just grab some popcorn and get ready to roflmao.

Cirrylius
2011-12-09, 10:27 AM
Actually, it wouldn't make it metagaming, because the cleric used his heal check to notice that she was alive, until her head was abruptly removed.

:smallconfused:He didn't. Org said the cleric said he was about to make a heal check when the DM told Org she was now dead.

Unless I missed a post. Which happens occasionally. :smallfrown:

Tyndmyr
2011-12-09, 10:57 AM
Oops. My bad. I looked it up; if she was decapitated in one stroke, the blood would only have gone a couple of feet. If it took some time to slice off, it'd go somewhat further. It's probably not unreasonable to assume adventurers would notice the difference. Of course, I doubt the other players had thought of that when they went "ZOMGWTF!!?1?" so that would still make it metagaming.

I would imagine that it would be a *very* easy spot check to see blood squirting out of the newly decapitated person.

Being adventurers, the knowledge that things dead for any length of time at all don't really do that would be...pretty likely. The jump from blood squirting everywhere to "you killed her" is a rather obvious one given the situation.

Madara
2011-12-09, 03:39 PM
GM informs us she was alive, but now isn't.

To me it sounded like there wasn't a heal check going on(but that the cleric had intended one previously), and that the DM later mentioned that the girl had been alive, and this makes me curious about the heal check. Because if he did it after the girl had been decapitated, then it'd come up as "recently dead", but if it was before, than Org would have known she was alive.

As for if the Cleric did make the heal check, why didn't he yell out "she's alive" or "she's ok". Plus Org would've heard it at the table.

By the way, I like your use of illusions. :smallsmile:

I also don't know very much about what happens when you behead someone who's alive :smallwink:
and yes, I do play many Grey-Alignment/ Good-challenged/ Power hungry characters

Coidzor
2011-12-09, 06:37 PM
To me it sounded like there wasn't a heal check going on(but that the cleric had intended one previously), and that the DM later mentioned that the girl had been alive, and this makes me curious about the heal check. Because if he did it after the girl had been decapitated, then it'd come up as "recently dead", but if it was before, than Org would have known she was alive.

As for if the Cleric did make the heal check, why didn't he yell out "she's alive" or "she's ok". Plus Org would've heard it at the table.

That heal check is the fishiest thing about it, as, somehow, despite the cleric intending to go and do a heal check he was not able to notice the weakling wizard get out a knife or sword and ready to get to decapitating. Which is part of where the whole DM's part in this as suspect comes into play.

Madara
2011-12-09, 07:00 PM
So essentially, I'll sum it up by saying the DM did something more wrong than Org, and that the party should cut him some slack. (Although it would be amusing if he accused them of wrong doing)

Xuc Xac
2011-12-09, 10:04 PM
I'm guessing the DM is of the "no sooner said than done" school.

The Boz
2011-12-10, 05:12 AM
I'm guessing the DM is of the "no sooner said than done" school.

I hate those.

The Random NPC
2011-12-10, 11:15 AM
That heal check is the fishiest thing about it, as, somehow, despite the cleric intending to go and do a heal check he was not able to notice the weakling wizard get out a knife or sword and ready to get to decapitating. Which is part of where the whole DM's part in this as suspect comes into play.

My guess is it went something like:
Org: I cut off the girls head.
DM: Ok.
Cleric: I was just about to do a heal check to make sure she was alive.
DM: Yeah, she was, until her head was cut off.

Tyndmyr
2011-12-10, 12:51 PM
That heal check is the fishiest thing about it, as, somehow, despite the cleric intending to go and do a heal check he was not able to notice the weakling wizard get out a knife or sword and ready to get to decapitating. Which is part of where the whole DM's part in this as suspect comes into play.

Pfft, evidently that wasn't brought up until afterward. I don't find that very convincing, based on looting taking priority.

My guess is that they figured she was probably dead, and were just searching everything after combat, as you do. They might have discovered her being alive, but they probably hadn't yet realized it.

IE, the conversation probably went much like Random NPC suggests.

Jarawara
2011-12-10, 07:16 PM
Hmmm...

I see an inconsistancy in the DM's use of passive checks:

Wizard goes to chop off head, but fails to notice the girl is still alive.

Cleric goes to check on the girl, but fails to notice the Wizard preparing to chop the girls's head off.

But *everyone else* in the room notices that the girl had, in fact, been alive, until the wizard chopped her head off.


While it's perfectly reasonable to say that people could see the blood spurting, proving the girl had been alive, it would have been near-equally reasonable for the other two details to have been noticed before the decapitation action had actually been done.

Conclusion: Bad DM.

Secondary Conclusion: Chaotic Evil Tendencies in the Wizard, to say the least.

The Boz
2011-12-11, 06:40 AM
Conclusion: Bad DM.

Secondary Conclusion: Chaotic Evil Tendencies in the Wizard, to say the least.

I agree.

It's something like:
DM: You see a knife.
Player: I take the knife.
DM: As you move to take the knife, the man holding it against your neck slices your throat.
Player: WAT!?

Strormer
2011-12-11, 10:05 AM
To Hell with retconning it. When your character wakes up, he explains he was only trying to help and why is everyone so mad at him? It's not like he did anything wrong.

What do you mean he shouldn't have cut her head off? You needed proof, didn't you? I mean, the man's not just going to take you at your word; that would be preposterous.

And now you keep doing things like this. When the other PCs start to give you "that look", you ask, "What? Not okay?" and then you make a big show of how patient you are, how tolerant you are, for putting up with their silly little rules so that they'll stop complaining.

They'll remember this campaign for the rest of their lives.

I know this character...
http://i162.photobucket.com/albums/t260/thexwuzheer/Richard/th_BoneThrone.gif (http://s162.photobucket.com/albums/t260/thexwuzheer/Richard/?action=view&current=BoneThrone.gif)

Viktyr Gehrig
2011-12-11, 06:35 PM
I know this character...
http://i162.photobucket.com/albums/t260/thexwuzheer/Richard/th_BoneThrone.gif (http://s162.photobucket.com/albums/t260/thexwuzheer/Richard/?action=view&current=BoneThrone.gif)

I was thinking more like this one:

http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTDWrCsnXM1ZOw8ipj1BbKxBOXqW2Uf3 iBDfCXNrWH8MZyBkct4oQ

Coidzor
2011-12-11, 06:54 PM
^: Who is that? Looks kind of vaguely british. And gassy.
My guess is it went something like:
Org: I cut off the girls head.
DM: Ok.
Cleric: I was just about to do a heal check to make sure she was alive.
DM: Yeah, she was, until her head was cut off.

Indeed, which is fishy. Usually the Cleric's Like "No that's stupid, I push his ass out of the way and do my heal check."

Or casts deathwatch, even.

Roderick_BR
2011-12-11, 07:07 PM
Bringing back the head is the sort of tropey-fantasy proof provider I stick too. Like if you were to slay an evil knight you might bring the head to the king or whatnot.

Edit: Clarity: The gunner was CE, I am Neutral IIRC.
Uh... you usually do that to the monster/villain, not the victim...

And yeah, checking a pulse on a possible victim should be standard in this sort of scenario "I check if she's still alive".

Imagine it from the mayor's point of view: He sends a bunch on unknown people to find someone that disapeared, then they come back carrying that person's head in his hands. What you expect him to think?

icefractal
2011-12-11, 09:10 PM
I agree.

It's something like:
DM: You see a knife.
Player: I take the knife.
DM: As you move to take the knife, the man holding it against your neck slices your throat.
Player: WAT!?Ditto this. I've seen some GMs who thought this was a good style of play, because "it provides more challenge", but IMO, that's BS. Not all challenge is equally valid, and the interface should not be the source of challenge.

For example, take two video games:
* In one, setting the difficulty higher makes enemies react faster and shoot more accurately, and sometimes have more reinforcements.
* In the other, setting the difficulty higher makes the game randomly lag, screws up your aiming, and makes the screen strobe on and off.

Those are both "more challenging", but the second is challenging in a bad way. And that's what I feel like GMs are doing when they provide a bad interface to the game, by not giving players information that their character would have, and/or interpreting input in a deliberately stupid way.


All that said ...
Cutting off the victim's head, without discussing it at all, was a pretty ill-advised action. Even without the "interface difficulty", I could see the rest of your party objecting to that.

Vacant
2011-12-11, 11:42 PM
Reminds me of an old joke

Barbarian: "Cleric, are you going to Raise Fred?"
Cleric: "Better make sure Fred is dead before I bother with a Raise"
Barbarian chops off Fred's Head
Barbarian: "OK, you can raise him now"
:smallbiggrin:

I actually did this in a campaign, once. I had no idea it was an old joke, good to know I'm in fine company.

Tyndmyr
2011-12-12, 12:22 PM
Hmmm...

I see an inconsistancy in the DM's use of passive checks:

Wizard goes to chop off head, but fails to notice the girl is still alive.

Cleric goes to check on the girl, but fails to notice the Wizard preparing to chop the girls's head off.

But *everyone else* in the room notices that the girl had, in fact, been alive, until the wizard chopped her head off.


While it's perfectly reasonable to say that people could see the blood spurting, proving the girl had been alive, it would have been near-equally reasonable for the other two details to have been noticed before the decapitation action had actually been done.

Conclusion: Bad DM.

Secondary Conclusion: Chaotic Evil Tendencies in the Wizard, to say the least.

Cleric did not state anything about checking until post-death, evidently. There is no problem with passive checks there.

I don't know what stats were involved with the killers heal, but it's likely that he wouldn't make a passive check. In fact, even giving a passive check for subtle things like this is not considered standard*.

As for preparing to chop her head off...if he had a weapon out(quite probable considering it's immediately post combat, and they're checking out the area)...in fact, probably most of the party still had weapons out. If he's next to her with weapon out, the amount of time to stop him is pretty minimal. There's no problem with passive checks here.

Everyone noticing a decapitation is pretty easy. Spot/Listen are among the classic skills that passive checks are used for, and the DC for say, hearing such things is quite low. Noticing the decapitation is basically guaranteed. If blood is spurting from the body, it's now blatantly obvious that she was alive, but no longer is.

*Red Hand of Doom has a similar scenario, and it specified active checks only to determine life/death.