Use All The Things? [PF.5]

[alchemyprime]

So I wish to update all the things to Pathfinder if they have not already been.

This includes every monster book I have (all the Manuals and Fiend Folio, Fiendish COdex I, Drow of the Underdark, Advanced Bestiary, plus a few of those Monster chapters, like MoI or EPH have, and some of the Dragon Magazines), every class without an update (and all the class options I can), all the races and all the magic items/optional rules/the spells.

Am I insane for wanting to use all the things? I like the idea, personally, and I like how Pathfinder is set up. So I want the Playground's opinion, and to also see: does anyone else want to help me update all the things so we can all use all the things?

[legomaster00156]

This is an ambitious project, and I agree that you will need aid. I can help a little, but I have... very limited resources (I have no books, no subscriptions, and no money). Therefore, if we need something updated, the class information will have to be sent to me in it's entirety. So, um, yeah. I'll help if I can.

[Fenryr]

To save some time and effort you could search the Paizo messageboards for some conversions (Scout class or some Prestige Classes, for example). This site can help too. (http://www.pathfinderdb.com/)

[Curious]

I would greatly appreciate this, and can even offer some aid. I have, in fact, already begun some of the conversion process with the Prestige Bard (see my sig) and am planning to expand on that by converting numerous bard-only feats.

[The-Mage-King]

...You have my blade.



Warblade, that is.

http://www.gmodforums.com/images/sasmilies/emot-razz.gif

[alchemyprime]

Hooray, folks want to help!

So a few things I was thinking:

1. Some classes could probably be combined. I would love to turn the Oriental Adventures Samurai and the CW Samurai into Orders for the Pathfinder Samurai. I think the Lurk and the Psychic Rogue can be folded together, or we can at least crank up the Lurk's power. And for some reason, I really want to mix Shaman, Spirit Shaman and Dragon Shaman into one guy, or at least update Shaman and Spirit Shaman at the same time into one class and leave Dragon Shaman on his own. Oh, and fold Dragonfire Adept into an option for Warlocks.

Sound good?

[Lord.Sorasen]

Hooray, folks want to help!

So a few things I was thinking:

1. Some classes could probably be combined. I would love to turn the Oriental Adventures Samurai and the CW Samurai into Orders for the Pathfinder Samurai. I think the Lurk and the Psychic Rogue can be folded together, or we can at least crank up the Lurk's power. And for some reason, I really want to mix Shaman, Spirit Shaman and Dragon Shaman into one guy, or at least update Shaman and Spirit Shaman at the same time into one class and leave Dragon Shaman on his own. Oh, and fold Dragonfire Adept into an option for Warlocks.

Sound good?

So to bullet this:

Make CW Samurai and OA samurai into Orders [archetypes?] for the Samurai class.
Combine Lurk and psychic rogue into a single class.
Combine the shamans, perhaps?
Create a warlock class, add dragonfire adept as an archetype.


Also is it alright if I also help with this project? I guess I'll type now and find out later. A couple suggestions:

- Consider doing Tome of Battle first. This is the thing people who want to switch to pathfinder want the most. Crusader isn't entirely necessary because PF boosted the paladin and added the inquisitor, but warblade and swordsage are going to be the most requested conversions. I'm going to go further and suggest you add unarmed swordsage as an archetype, with a catchier name of course.
- Consider not bothering with the scout class. Pathfinder has done basically that already with the Scout archetype (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/rogue/archetypes/paizo---rogue-archetypes/scout).
- The two gish in a boxes, I forget their names... Umm, hexblade and duskblade I think... Could probably be magus archetypes perhaps?

[The Underlord]

I remeber seeing someone (try) to update incarnum to pathfinder. You might want to look at that.

[legomaster00156]

I have a PF Spellthief conversion on my computer, but it's in a file that's difficult to share. It's actually quite good, minus that they didn't update gold to PF standards (_d6 X 10). If anyone knows how to share PDF Complete files, feel free to tell me.

[OverdrivePrime]

Is there any repository for Pathfinder community conversions yet? It would suck to double up on work that's already been done well.

[alchemyprime]

So to bullet this:

Make CW Samurai and OA samurai into Orders [archetypes?] for the Samurai class.
Combine Lurk and psychic rogue into a single class.
Combine the shamans, perhaps?
Create a warlock class, add dragonfire adept as an archetype.


Also is it alright if I also help with this project? I guess I'll type now and find out later. A couple suggestions:

- Consider doing Tome of Battle first. This is the thing people who want to switch to pathfinder want the most. Crusader isn't entirely necessary because PF boosted the paladin and added the inquisitor, but warblade and swordsage are going to be the most requested conversions. I'm going to go further and suggest you add unarmed swordsage as an archetype, with a catchier name of course.
- Consider not bothering with the scout class. Pathfinder has done basically that already with the Scout archetype (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/rogue/archetypes/paizo---rogue-archetypes/scout).
- The two gish in a boxes, I forget their names... Umm, hexblade and duskblade I think... Could probably be magus archetypes perhaps?

Sure, jump on in! I figure we also could make "Martial Adept" archetype variants of the Paladin, Inquisitor and a class I always wanted to make: Warlord.

Essentially, Pathfinder Marshal, as a way for us to update Auras and add in some Martial maneuvers, and to replace Crusader.

[Psyren]

For Lurk/Psyrogue, I would simply wait for the DSP folks (same guys behind the rest of the PF Psionics classes (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/classes)) as they are currently working on a psionic skillmonkey that will incorporate elements from both classes. Their design is superb so it will save you a lot of effort.

Besides, there's tons more classes we can work on in the meantime. I'm especially interested in updating ToM and Incarnum.



Needless to say, I'm in :smallsmile: some thoughts:

- ToB, rather than being brand new classes, should honestly be a new combat system (similar to Ultimate Magic's Words of Power) that you can then tack onto the existing Fighter, Cavalier, Rogue, Monk etc. Then you can have a Fighter being exactly as badass as a Warblade without being totally replaced.

- If you're going to fold Warlock and DFA together, do it 4e-style - make each Warlock archetype be a Pact, and then you can have the standard Infernal/Celestial/Fey pacts, then throw in pacts to cover other classes (Dragon Pact for the DFA, Shadow Pact for Shadowcaster etc.)

- Binder deserves to be its own class though I think, though you can make it "Vestige Pact" if you really want.

- When you update Incarnum, keep in mind that PF has more body slots than D&D does.

[legomaster00156]

- If you're going to fold Warlock and DFA together, do it 4e-style - make each Warlock archetype be a Pact, and then you can have the standard Infernal/Celestial/Fey pacts, then throw in pacts to cover other classes (Dragon Pact for the DFA, Shadow Pact for Shadowcaster etc.)

- Binder deserves to be its own class though I think, though you can make it "Vestige Pact" if you really want.
I like this idea. Make it similar to a Cavalier's Order, or a Paladin's optional Oath. Here's an example of a basic layout.

Base Warlock abilities
Eldritch Blast dealing 1d8+CHA at first level, +1d8/2 Warlock levels
This is a staple of the Warlock, but sadly a bit underpowered by 3.5 rules. So, I will simply make it deal 1d8/2 Warlock levels, in addition to the Warlock's CHA modifier.
Basic spell list that is castable at-will
It wouldn't be the Warlock without an insanely limited spell list that is nonetheless useful. I might recommend a few cantrips at 1st level, a 1st-level spell or two at 2nd level, a 2nd-level spell or two at 5th level, and from then on, give it an upgrade every two level. this still puts them behind their Wizardly friends, but they can cast these spells at-will. At level 19 and 20, they will be able to cast a single level 9 spell at-will.

Infernal Pact-specific abilities
Eldritch Blast can deal hellfire damage in exchange for 2 damage/Warlock's HD (half fire, half unholy).
This follows the fluff of taking the power of the devils and shaping it to your needs, at a terrible price: your very own soul's corruption.
All damage-dealing [Fire] spells can instead deal hellfire damage.
That Fireball suddenly became a Hellfireball. That Scorching Ray is now going to burn a lot more. And that Meteor Swarm that the Warlock has been waiting 19 levels for? Burn! Burn! BURN!!!

[Psyren]

Disintegration at 0 is a bit overpowered. PF design in general makes it harder for characters to kick the bucket (you die at -CON instead of -10 for instance.) I would change it to "if the character takes eldritch blast damage in same round or the round immediately prior to dying, his remains act as though disintegrated." That way, a character who is EB'd to death, or who bleeds out due to EB, will get powdered as you describe.

In addition, I don't think 1d8/level is fair - even rogues don't get that much bonus damage. 1d8/2 levels is still more than Warlocks currently get, but much more reasonable.

[Prime32]

Disintegration at 0 is a bit overpowered. PF design in general makes it harder for characters to kick the bucket (you die at -CON instead of -10 for instance.) I would change it to "if the character takes eldritch blast damage in same round or the round immediately prior to dying, his remains act as though disintegrated." That way, a character who is EB'd to death, or who bleeds out due to EB, will get powdered as you describe.How many monsters in your game survive after the PCs reduce them below 0hp anyway? :smallconfused: Plus, disintegrating people destroys their loot.

Also http://pf-eberron.wikidot.com/

[Ravens_cry]

Make it like disintegrate the spell, which only disintegrates the creature struck, not their stuff?

[Psyren]

How many monsters in your game survive after the PCs reduce them below 0hp anyway? :smallconfused:

1) What is sauce for the PCs is sauce for the monsters; plenty of baddies use Hellfire.

2) Survival isn't the issue; raising is. At-will disintegrate means that PCs will reduce every baddie to powder and blow it away to prevent it being raised, which can strain disbelief if you want a bad guy to come back for plot purposes. It shouldn't be so easy to do.

3) Hellfire itself includes no disintegration rules anyway, so we'd just be adding potentially unbalancing stuff to it for fluff's sake.


Plus, disintegrating people destroys their loot.

Where'd you get that?

"A disintegrated creature’s equipment is unaffected." (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/d/disintegrate)

[legomaster00156]

3) Hellfire itself includes no disintegration rules anyway, so we'd just be adding potentially unbalancing stuff to it for fluff's sake.
My bad. I was baing the Hellfire rules off off one of my personal favorite spells, Hellfire Ray. I've found the actual rules on Hellfire, so I'll adjust that. And, what the heck, I'll take the Warlock if someone can send me some basic information on it's non-staple features. Otherwise, I'll just hurl suggestions.

[alchemyprime]

For Lurk/Psyrogue, I would simply wait for the DSP folks (same guys behind the rest of the PF Psionics classes (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/classes)) as they are currently working on a psionic skillmonkey that will incorporate elements from both classes. Their design is superb so it will save you a lot of effort.

Besides, there's tons more classes we can work on in the meantime. I'm especially interested in updating ToM and Incarnum.



Needless to say, I'm in :smallsmile: some thoughts:

- ToB, rather than being brand new classes, should honestly be a new combat system (similar to Ultimate Magic's Words of Power) that you can then tack onto the existing Fighter, Cavalier, Rogue, Monk etc. Then you can have a Fighter being exactly as badass as a Warblade without being totally replaced.

- If you're going to fold Warlock and DFA together, do it 4e-style - make each Warlock archetype be a Pact, and then you can have the standard Infernal/Celestial/Fey pacts, then throw in pacts to cover other classes (Dragon Pact for the DFA, Shadow Pact for Shadowcaster etc.)

- Binder deserves to be its own class though I think, though you can make it "Vestige Pact" if you really want.

- When you update Incarnum, keep in mind that PF has more body slots than D&D does.

I indeed was thinking different Warlock pacts.

I was thinking
Aberrant - Madenning Blast, DR/Byeshk
Celestial - Angelic Aura, DR/Silver
Draconic - Dragonfire, DR/Cold Iron
Elemental - Maelstrom Blast, DR/... something?
Fey - Glamoured Blast, DR/Cold Iron
Infernal - Hellfire Blast, DR/Silver
Vermin - Skittering Blast, DR/Adamantine


Incarnum MUST BE UPDATED! THIS, I SWEAR! Along with the original three (Soulblade, Incarnate and Totemist), there are a few other class ideas I was kicking around (Soultheif, an old class I made, as well as some older homebrews I found before, like the Voidsoul).

I want a few Binders, personally. Different classes. I like the idea of the Binder being the core binder, and some others (I think Occultist to be sort of half Binder/half Clericy guy, usin the vestiges to try to establish his own cult of followers, the Shade to be a more Skillmonkey focussed one, a Duskblade to be rebranded as a binder/fighter built in gish, and a Vestigist to be more wizardly version of the Binder).

I do think just updating those classes and combining Tome of Secrets Warlord with Marshal to make a new Warlord is a good idea, and making ToB into just a new system isn't bad (because then instead of Warblade, it's still Fighter, Barbarian, Rogue, Monk, Gunslinger, Samurai and Cavalier)

[legomaster00156]

I was thinking
Aberrant - Madenning Blast, DR/Byeshk
Celestial - Angelic Aura, DR/Silver
Draconic - Dragonfire, DR/Cold Iron
Elemental - Maelstrom Blast, DR/... something?
Fey - Glamoured Blast, DR/Cold Iron
Infernal - Hellfire Blast, DR/Silver
Vermin - Skittering Blast, DR/Adamantine

I can get it done, with some differences. I'll need to flesh out a few more class features for the Pacts, but as a base, the Pact decides your DR weakness and your modified Eldritch Blast. I might add bonus spells decided by your Pact later on. Let's see...

Base Warlock
d8 HD
Medium BAB
Poor FORT, poor REF, good Will
Eldritch Blast: 1d8/two Warlock levels + CHA mod untyped damage (minimum 1d8); ranged touch attack; Close range (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 caster levels)
Caster level = Warlock level
Cantrips (3 + CHA mod, drawn from spell list determined by Pact)
Spells are drawn from Sorcerer/Wizard spell list. Get 1st-level spells at level 2, 2nd-level spells at level 5, and advance a spell level higher every 2 level afterwards (up to a maximum of a single 9th-level spell at levels 19-20).
DR = 1/3 Warlock level; bypassing energy chosen by Pact.

Aberrant Pact
Maddening Blast: Enemies struck by your Eldritch Blast must make a Will save (DC 10 + 1/2 Warlock level + CHA mod) or be confused for 1 round.
DR/fire

Celestial Pact
Holy Blast: Eldritch Blast may deal damage from holy fire (half fire damage, holy holy damage).
DR/silver

Draconic Pact
Breath Blast: Eldritch Blast may instead affect a 15-foot cone. You are fatigued for 1d4 rounds after using this ability.
DR/cold iron

Elemental Pact
Energy Blast: When using Eldritch Blast, you may attach one type of energy to it: fire, cold, electricity, or acid. You may never choose the type which is your DR's weakness (see below).
DR/one energy type of your choice (fire, cold, electricity, or acid); choice may not be changed.

Fey Pact
Dazzling Blast: Whenever you strike an enemy with Eldritch Blast, it must make a Will save (DC 10 + 1/2 Warlock level + CHA mod) or treat all enemies as having concealment (20% miss chance) for one round. This does not stack with other ways of increasing miss chance.
DR/cold iron

Infernal Pact
Unholy Blast: Eldritch Blast may deal hellfire damage (half fire, half unholy).
DR/silver

Plague Bloodline
Sickening Blast: Whenever you strike a creature with Eldritch Blast, they must make a Fortitude save (DC 10 + 1/2 Warlock level + CHA mod) or be sickened for 1d4 rounds.
DR/fire

[alchemyprime]

I can get it done, with some differences. I'll need to flesh out a few more class features for the Pacts, but as a base, the Pact decides your DR weakness and your modified Eldritch Blast. I might add bonus spells decided by your Pact later on. Let's see...

Base Warlock
d8 HD
Medium BAB
Poor FORT, poor REF, good Will
Eldritch Blast: 1d8/two Warlock levels + CHA mod untyped damage (minimum 1d8); ranged touch attack; Close range (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 caster levels)
Caster level = Warlock level
Cantrips (3 + CHA mod, drawn from spell list determined by Pact)
Spells are drawn from Sorcerer/Wizard spell list. Get 1st-level spells at level 2, 2nd-level spells at level 5, and advance a spell level higher every 2 level afterwards (up to a maximum of a single 9th-level spell at levels 19-20).
DR = 1/3 Warlock level; bypassing energy chosen by Pact.

Aberrant Pact
Maddening Blast: Enemies struck by your Eldritch Blast must make a Will save (DC 10 + 1/2 Warlock level + CHA mod) or be confused for 1 round.
DR/fire

Celestial Pact
Holy Blast: Eldritch Blast may deal damage from holy fire (half fire damage, holy holy damage).
DR/silver

Draconic Pact
Breath Blast: Eldritch Blast may instead affect a 15-foot cone. You are fatigued for 1d4 rounds after using this ability.
DR/cold iron

Elemental Pact
Energy Blast: When using Eldritch Blast, you may attach one type of energy to it: fire, cold, electricity, or acid. You may never choose the type which is your DR's weakness (see below).
DR/one energy type of your choice (fire, cold, electricity, or acid); choice may not be changed.

Fey Pact
Dazzling Blast: Whenever you strike an enemy with Eldritch Blast, it must make a Will save (DC 10 + 1/2 Warlock level + CHA mod) or treat all enemies as having concealment (20% miss chance) for one round. This does not stack with other ways of increasing miss chance.
DR/cold iron

Infernal Pact
Unholy Blast: Eldritch Blast may deal hellfire damage (half fire, half unholy).
DR/silver

Plague Bloodline
Sickening Blast: Whenever you strike a creature with Eldritch Blast, they must make a Fortitude save (DC 10 + 1/2 Warlock level + CHA mod) or be sickened for 1d4 rounds.
DR/fire



Eh... I kinda like the old Invocation system better. UNLIMITED COSMIC POWERS!!!!! ... itty bitty spell list. But the different sets aren't bad.

There is no DR/Fire. I thought energies were covered by resistances.

1d8 * level/2 per round is tough, dude. That's between 10 and 80 + Cha damage each round at 20th. Rogues are probably doing between 11 and 66. Better lower range (negligible though) and and only 80% the top damage, and not as often. *pats the poor rogue on the head*

Meanwhile if we do 1d6 * level/2, then we have between 10 and 60, but changable damage (I like the idea of being able to choose augments to add to it each turn by spending your swift, or a free with a feat), doing things like extending the range immensely, chaging the type of damage, and all the nice added effects. Makes the warlock about on par with the rogue over all.

I also think, if we do spells for them, then each pact is like a bloodline, and they have a more limited spell list. But I prefer the invocations myself.

Dealing Unholy Damage is really tough, dude. Isn't that the same as Profane? Which can't heal naturally? Very very mean at 1st level. It should pop in later. I think one feature at 1st, one at 4th, and one every 5 levels thereafter (9th, 14th, 19th). At least, from the pact. There should also be the DR increasing at a regular rate, the ability to trick magic items easier, some energy resistances determined by their pact, and maybe a nice little side list of invocations/spells to use, probably maxing out at about 26 spells total, not including their pact's additions.

[legomaster00156]

Eh... I kinda like the old Invocation system better. UNLIMITED COSMIC POWERS!!!!! ... itty bitty spell list. But the different sets aren't bad.
This gives Warlocks a teeny bit more versatility, which i think can only be a good thing.


There is no DR/Fire. I thought energies were covered by resistances.
That was my bad. I'll get that fixed in the finished product.


1d8 * level/2 per round is tough, dude. That's between 10 and 80 + Cha damage each round at 20th. Rogues are probably doing between 11 and 66. Better lower range (negligible though) and and only 80% the top damage, and not as often. *pats the poor rogue on the head*

Meanwhile if we do 1d6 * level/2, then we have between 10 and 60, but changable damage (I like the idea of being able to choose augments to add to it each turn by spending your swift, or a free with a feat), doing things like extending the range immensely, chaging the type of damage, and all the nice added effects. Makes the warlock about on par with the rogue over all.
Hm, you pose a valid point. I'll handle this issue.


I also think, if we do spells for them, then each pact is like a bloodline, and they have a more limited spell list. But I prefer the invocations myself.
Similar to a Bloodline, yes. I will draw a bit of inspiration from the PF Sorcerer, and porbably some from the Witch - both are awesome classes, and some of the fluff works well with the Warlock.


Dealing Unholy Damage is really tough, dude. Isn't that the same as Profane? Which can't heal naturally? Very very mean at 1st level. It should pop in later.
No, it's not the same. All hellfire damage is is half fire, half unholy. Unholy damage pierces the normal fire resistance, and is doubled against enemies with the Good subtype. Not at all game-breaking, but useful for an Evil Warlock.


I think one feature at 1st, one at 4th, and one every 5 levels thereafter (9th, 14th, 19th). At least, from the pact. There should also be the DR increasing at a regular rate, the ability to trick magic items easier, some energy resistances determined by their pact, and maybe a nice little side list of invocations/spells to use, probably maxing out at about 26 spells total, not including their pact's additions.
Good plans.

[alchemyprime]

This gives Warlocks a teeny bit more versatility, which i think can only be a good thing.


Well, I understand that, but if you look there, I'm looking at adding at least 18 more invocations per Warlock to them. That makes them more versatile as well. Also, using the Sorc/Wiz spell list, I think, withdraws a bit from the differences between the three levels of casters. I like the idea that they have the longevity, but not the versatility, of a wizard. They were just a little too weak under 3.5. I think we can crank them up a bit more, but normal spells makes it not as useful.



No, it's not the same. All hellfire damage is is half fire, half unholy. Unholy damage pierces the normal fire resistance, and is doubled against enemies with the Good subtype. Not at all game-breaking, but useful for an Evil Warlock.


Ah, I was not aware. I still think that would want to be added in midlevel then. Probably around 6th or 10th. Every turn, doubling half the damage on [Good] enemies? That's strong.

But I like it.

[legomaster00156]

Hm... perhaps we should work together on the Invocations so as to balance this all out. If you can send me the plans for the ones you want, I can squeeze in some to fill in any gaps.

[alchemyprime]

Hm... perhaps we should work together on the Invocations so as to balance this all out. If you can send me the plans for the ones you want, I can squeeze in some to fill in any gaps.

I will after finals!

What other ideas, folks? What've we got? (And once we start getting homebrew going, we'll actually move the discussion to homebrew).

[Curious]

I believe BelGareth has already done an Incarnum conversion, which would be right. . .
Here. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=218434)

Most Psionic stuff is already covered by DSP, you've got the Warlock and Dragonfire Adept in hand, so some good ideas would be:
-Tome of Battle (really only needs a skill system update).
-Tome of Magic (Binder, perhaps some Truenamer fixes).

[The-Mage-King]

-Tome of Battle (really only needs a skill system update).


Easy, peasy.



-Tome of Magic (Binder, perhaps some Truenamer fixes).

Probably easy enough...


The latter part is done already, though.


It's called "Words of Power". :smallwink:

[alchemyprime]

I believe BelGareth has already done an Incarnum conversion, which would be right. . .
Here. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=218434)

Most Psionic stuff is already covered by DSP, you've got the Warlock and Dragonfire Adept in hand, so some good ideas would be:
-Tome of Battle (really only needs a skill system update).
-Tome of Magic (Binder, perhaps some Truenamer fixes).

Yeah, DSP handled a lot of the psionic stuff. I have seen a few incarnum changes, but I want something more... expanded. Tome of Magic, I really only want Binders fixed and expanded. Unless people want Shadowcasters and an expansion of them.

ToB is the biggest one to go for. Though I also think upgrading the Artificer may be a good idea.

I think the Swashbuckler in Tome of Secrets does a decent job of adapting the Swashbuckler, so we'd only need to see how to adapt that to ToB. I do think the premade gishes should all be mixed into Magus.

How do folks feel about redoing the savant?

[Psyren]

How do folks feel about redoing the savant?

I envision Savant and Factotum both being the jack-of-all-trades classes. If they were both archaeologists, the Factotum would be the hands-on, Indiana Jones-type, while Savant would be the enthusiastic and scholarly Evie (http://mummy.wikia.com/wiki/Evelyn_O'Connell) type.

In short, Savant would have more of a magical focus, while Factotum would be more physical (represented by its ability to nick (Ex) abilities from other classes, sneak attack etc.) Factotum can still gain SLAs, but can't cast nearly as much as a Savant and never gains actual spells.

Very rough draft of a Savant update:

- Int-SAD, 1/2 BAB, d6; can cast in light armor without ASF.

- List combines divine and arcane spells (somewhat similar to Divine Bard or Adept.) Some spells can be discounted for them similar to summoner; divinations are a good choice here.

- boost spell progression to cap at 5th or 6th-level spells on both sides. Both sides gain spells at the same time and advance at the same rate. Savants can start casting at level 1.

- Spell list expanded significantly, including some summons, planar binding, etc.

- Prepares spells from a spellbook. (Can have an even more secular/mundane name though: Textbook? Manual?)

- Give it a resource similar to an arcane pool (possible names: Enlightenment. Lore, Lucidity) which it would use to activate other class abiltiies, such as Trapfinding, channel energy, even telepathy.

- Remove sneak attack entirely (Let Factotum keep that)

- Give both Factotum and Savant a floating bonus feat; they can gain additional ones by permanently lowering their Inspiration/Luciditity.

- Double skill assistance progression (up to 60ft. at level 20.) Add an option for the Savant to use both his ranks and his Int mod in place of the ally's ranks/mod by spending {Lore.}

Artificer can be a Savant archetype, gaining the ability to craft via UMD. Their floating feat(s) can be used for the required crafting feats in that case. If necessary, the spells can be replaced with infusions.

[alchemyprime]

I envision Savant and Factotum both being the jack-of-all-trades classes. If they were both archaeologists, the Factotum would be the hands-on, Indiana Jones-type, while Savant would be the enthusiastic and scholarly Evie (http://mummy.wikia.com/wiki/Evelyn_O'Connell) type.

In short, Savant would have more of a magical focus, while Factotum would be more physical (represented by its ability to nick (Ex) abilities from other classes, sneak attack etc.) Factotum can still gain SLAs, but can't cast nearly as much as a Savant and never gains actual spells.

Very rough draft of a Savant update:

- Int-SAD, 1/2 BAB, d6; can cast in light armor without ASF.

- List combines divine and arcane spells (somewhat similar to Divine Bard or Adept.) Some spells can be discounted for them similar to summoner; divinations are a good choice here.

- boost spell progression to cap at 5th or 6th-level spells on both sides. Both sides gain spells at the same time and advance at the same rate. Savants can start casting at level 1.

- Spell list expanded significantly, including some summons, planar binding, etc.

- Prepares spells from a spellbook. (Can have an even more secular/mundane name though: Textbook? Manual?)

- Give it a resource similar to an arcane pool (possible names: Enlightenment. Lore, Lucidity) which it would use to activate other class abiltiies, such as Trapfinding, channel energy, even telepathy.

- Remove sneak attack entirely (Let Factotum keep that)

- Give both Factotum and Savant a floating bonus feat; they can gain additional ones by permanently lowering their Inspiration/Luciditity.

- Double skill assistance progression (up to 60ft. at level 20.) Add an option for the Savant to use both his ranks and his Int mod in place of the ally's ranks/mod by spending {Lore.}

Artificer can be a Savant archetype, gaining the ability to craft via UMD. Their floating feat(s) can be used for the required crafting feats in that case. If necessary, the spells can be replaced with infusions.

Well, I do like the artificer being his own thing, being kind of a third kind of archaeologist, but as the savant is? I love it. And maybe fold Archivist and Savant into a mold together, making Archivist into the all-divine Savant archetype.

[alchemyprime]

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=225656

Now you too can use all the things! Or at least, once we get this set up.