Sneak Attack/Iaijutsu Focus [3.5]

[kulosle]

So I find that no matter how much you optimize either of these, once you actually start doing a respectful amount of damage the DM feels the need to throw you into situations where it's incredibly difficult to get someone flat footed or flanked or denied their dex bonus. So what I'm wondering is what are all of the reliable ways a character independently can get an opponent to be subjected to his precision type damages.

[Gavinfoxx]

...Talk to the DM?

[Tvtyrant]

Swift Hunter lets a Ranger apply skirmish damage to creatures it has as a favored enemy, even if they would normally be immune. Pick things that are immune (undead, then constructs, then oozes) and you can skirmish all day.

[Flickerdart]

Stocking up on wands of _strike or the appropriate weapon crystals, or Penetrating Strike is a good strategy for when you're not a Scout, but it's trickier to actually apply the bonus without a flanking buddy or when using archery. Also, just in case, get a means of making touch attacks: nothing is sadder than adding +10d6 to an attack that never hits.

[Aegis013]

Wand of Grease. Don't have 5 ranks in balance? HAH! Iaijutsu Focus!

[candycorn]

Flat Footed is very hard to do. You can deny someone dex to AC fairly easy, but if something requires "Flat-Footed", then that's hard to do.

IIRC, bluff to feint in combat can do it... And hitting in the first round before the enemy goes does it.

There's a swordsage maneuver that creates an elemental to flank with you as a swift action. It pretty much guarantees flank.

[kulosle]

I know the majority, there are probably a few that still allude me, of the ways of applying precision damage to creatures normally immune, but the main concern I have is getting flanking or someone flat footed. I know the majority of the tricks. I'm want to know of the obscure once that only optimized players managed to come up with. I know there are a few spells that give flanking, is there one that doesn't have a save or spell resistance? Whats the most reliable way to keep spells like this handy? Is it simply wands? Whats a action free way to spread grease? How to flank someone backed into a corner. Flat footed is a lot more difficult. The only reliable way I know is to max hide. Things in this ball park.

[Elboxo]

Well by the 'Conditions' section of PhB, denying Dex to AC isn't so hard, but flatfooted is.... you really have to get the jump on them, as far as denied dex to AC is concerned; Stunned, Paralyzed, Helpless (Sleeping, held, etc.), being grappled, Cowering (This can be optimized quite well), being Blinded (Ask your friendly necromancer), and the attacker being invisible all deny the victim their Dexterity bonus to AC.

For a sneak-attack focussed character, the only way you will pull most of these off is probably through the help of your party caster, but poisoned weapons can also get you what you need, if at a rather high price.

[kulosle]

Doesn't being invisible, or outside someones perception, make someone flat footed towards you?

So cowering makes someone flat footed but the problem is that the majority of things are immune to fear. I know of a few ways of intimidating people immune to fear, but they require too much of the characters resources, usually levels. Is there an easy way of getting this off?

[Curmudgeon]

Doesn't being invisible, or outside someones perception, make someone flat footed towards you?
No. Being visually undetectable gives you a +2 to hit and denies your opponent their DEX bonus to AC.

Being flat-footed denies your opponent their DEX bonus to AC, prevents them from taking immediate actions, and prevents them from making attacks of opportunity.

[Darrin]

Doesn't being invisible, or outside someones perception, make someone flat footed towards you?


Not explicitly flat-footed, but yes, an invisible attacker ignores his target's Dex bonus. Blinding your target also denies them their Dex bonus. But as Curmudgeon points out, the two conditions have slightly different effects.

Using the Hide skill to be visually undetectable is a bit more nebulous, as the Hide skill does not explicitly state that you can ignore a target's Dex bonus when attacking from a hidden position. But most DMs will probably agree that if a target can't anticipate where an attack is coming from, then they are either flat-footed or denied their Dex bonus.



I know of a few ways of intimidating people immune to fear, but they require too much of the characters resources, usually levels. Is there an easy way of getting this off?

Fearsome armor property (Drow of the Underdark) and the Imperious Command feat (same book). Demoralize as a move-action, and demoralized opponents cower for 1 round. Add the Never Outnumbered skill trick (Complete Scoundrel) to make it an area-effect once per encounter.

[Curmudgeon]

One additional note here: excepting special conditions like balancing (without 5+ skill ranks in Balance), you're generally flat-footed only when you haven't yet acted in combat. So Iaijutsu Focus is a niche skill, usable only in the surprise round and first round of combat (and then only if your initiative is high enough).

[Greenish]

I listed (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=186283) some ways of making your enemies flat-footed or denying them dex to AC a while back.

[Elboxo]

As per Greenish's list,
Surprising Riposte (DotU). If you deal damage to a target in the same round that you successfully feinted against it, it becomes flat-footed until it's next turn or the end of the round.

and

Flick of the Wrist (C.Warrior). When you draw a light weapon and attack with it on the same round, the target is considered flat-footed against the attack. 1/round and 1/target/encounter.

As well as the skill tricks:
Acrobatic Strike Tumble into an opponent's square to make him flat-footed for one attack.

and

Hidden Blade If you use Sleight of Hand to conceal a weapon you may draw it as a move action and treat an opponent that was unaware of it as flat-footed.

Combined with
Neraph Camouflage (racial ability, PlH). Deny one target Dex to AC against a charge or a thrown weapon 1/target/encounter.

Sound like the best ways to have near constant flat-footed or Dex denied opponents, you have at least 4 opponents/encounter* made flat-footed via these methods without casting.
* With successful feint/SoH checks

Also isn't there some shenanigans with gnome razors or something?

[Morph Bark]

Scarlet Corsair (Stormwrack) gets free action Feinting to render opponents flat-footed. It also advances Sneak Attack.

Several Diamond Mind maneuvers from ToB render the target flat-footed as well.

Besides these, take the ACF/feat that allows you to add half your Sneak Attack dice against creatures normally immune. Furthermore, pump your initiative. Always having a +1 Eager Shuriken of Warning in your hand will help a lot.

[deuxhero]

Not explicitly flat-footed, but yes, an invisible attacker ignores his target's Dex bonus. Blinding your target also denies them their Dex bonus. But as Curmudgeon points out, the two conditions have slightly different effects.

Rule Compendium says the target is flatfooted if you attack while invisible from what I hear.

[sreservoir]

might the resource (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=12405.0) help?

[Curmudgeon]

Rule Compendium says the target is flatfooted if you attack while invisible from what I hear.
You hear incorrectly. From page 15 of Rules Compendium:
You lose your Dexterity bonus when, for example, an invisible opponent attacks you, you’re climbing, or you’re stunned.

[Greenish]

Also isn't there some shenanigans with gnome razors or something?Gnome Quickrazors are traditionally used not because they have anything to do with flat-footing the enemy, but because they can be drawn and sheathed as free actions, satisfying the "immediately after drawing the weapon" clause of IF.


Rule Compendium says the target is flatfooted if you attack while invisible from what I hear.Rules Compendium says the target loses Dex to AC if you attack while invisible, from what I read. Try pages 76-77.

[darkdragoon]

Gloom Razor (the Shadow Blade tactical feat) helps a bit.

[Randomguy]

You could wield a weapon with a very high crit range, like keen kukris, a keen rapier or a keen scimitar, and take the telling blow feat (PHB2 page 83), so that when you crit you deal sneak attack damage whether or not your target is flat footed, and with a really good threat range one in about 3 attacks crit.

[Gavinfoxx]

You could wield a weapon with a very high crit range, like keen kukris, a keen rapier or a keen scimitar, and take the telling blow feat (PHB2 page 83), so that when you crit you deal sneak attack damage whether or not your target is flat footed, and with a really good threat range one in about 3 attacks crit.

That is really not considered a good way to get sneak attacks....

[Yorae]

Distract Assailant is a 1st level Sorc/Wiz/Assassin spell that makes one target flat footed as a swift action. (SpC, pg. 69) That may help if you are a spellcaster or have some way of using it (wand, maybe?).

[Curmudgeon]

That is really not considered a good way to get sneak attacks....
The usefulness of Telling Blow is situational. If you use wide threat range weapons and have enough of the right (i.e., annoying) circumstances:

no flanking partner
enemy more than 30' away
concealment
no opportunity to move 10' (for skirmish)
enemies who trump your invisibility or Hide skill
then Telling Blow ends up being statistically worthwhile.

[Bloodgruve]

You hear incorrectly. From page 15 of Rules Compendium:

From RC p.92

If you’re successfully hidden with respect to another
creature, that creature is flat-footed with respect to you. That
creature treats you as if you were invisible (see page 76).

To me this states that IF works while hidden and/or invisible.

My IF build uses the whisper gnome with Hide in Plain Sight from Dark Creature template. for simplicity I make a hide check once per round, first attack uses the roll, all others use -20 on the original roll to stay hidden during an attack. Dark Whisper Gnomes have a terribly high hide modifier. I use a shadow blade stance to escape 'direct sunlight' for HiPS also (DM approved).

Ebon Eyes with Darkness spells work well.

Marbles on the floor creates FF.

Greater Invisibility.

Blurstrike weapon enchantment 10/day.

IDK what the rule with hide vs blind is but if it works Eggshell Grenades are nice.

GL

Blood

[Curmudgeon]

From RC p.92

If you’re successfully hidden with respect to another
creature, that creature is flat-footed with respect to you. That
creature treats you as if you were invisible (see page 76).

To me this states that IF works while hidden and/or invisible.
Nope; hidden only, not invisible.

If you see page 76, you'll notice that invisibility does not force the enemy to be treated as flat-footed; instead, they're only denied their DEX bonus to AC. This is one of the new rules in RC, and it applies specifically to the Hide skill to make the foe be treated as flat-footed and give you (the hidden character) the benefit of invisibility; invisibility alone does not create flat-footed status.

[Bloodgruve]

You get a +20 to hide if you are invisible or the target cannot see you. If this is true you would simply need to make a hide check while invised to achieve FF.

Had to reread that entry, I see what it is saying now.

Blood~

[kulosle]

So hide does make them flat footed. I'm totally showing every DM that for now on. Hide is one of the easiest skills to maximize.

I like confound the big folk. I've never seen that before, must of skimmed to quickly. The question with this is whats the smallest race with a low LA/HD?

Is acrobatic backstab one of the useable only once per encounter skill tricks, AFB? If so then meh, if not then oh my god I need to play a Dervish.

[candycorn]

So hide does make them flat footed. I'm totally showing every DM that for now on. Hide is one of the easiest skills to maximize.

I like confound the big folk. I've never seen that before, must of skimmed to quickly. The question with this is whats the smallest race with a low LA/HD?

Is acrobatic backstab one of the useable only once per encounter skill tricks, AFB? If so then meh, if not then oh my god I need to play a Dervish.

Jermlaine, MM2. It's 0 RHD, 0 LA, and Tiny.

Make it a Pywar, and Compression gets you to Diminutive, and eventually Fine.

[Morph Bark]

You could wield a weapon with a very high crit range, like keen kukris, a keen rapier or a keen scimitar, and take the telling blow feat (PHB2 page 83), so that when you crit you deal sneak attack damage whether or not your target is flat footed, and with a really good threat range one in about 3 attacks crit.

Twin keen kukries and Blood in the Water stance are so delicious I can't even explain it.

[Darrin]

Jermlaine, MM2. It's 0 RHD, 0 LA, and Tiny.


Muckdweller (Serpent Kingdoms) is tiny and LA 0, but has better stats.

Hengeyokai Sparrow (Oriental Adventures) is better since you can start out fine-sized, but whether it's LA +1 or LA 0 depends on whether your DM has access to and allows the OA 3.5 Update from Dragon #318.

[Curmudgeon]

So hide does make them flat footed. I'm totally showing every DM that for now on. Hide is one of the easiest skills to maximize.
It's worth noting that Hide (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/hide.htm) (except in the special case of Sniping for ranged attacks) isn't an action. Instead, there is a limited set of other actions on which a Hide check is allowed to be piggy-backed. Random move actions and standard actions don't allow Hide checks, but movement (not non-moving move actions, just actual movement), attacking, running, and charging all do. If you want to cast a spell which doesn't have an attack roll, you can't Hide even if you're already invisible. If you're being observed, even just because of the dust you're disturbing in the air (i.e., somebody made a Spot check higher than 20 to become aware of you), you also can't Hide. A Listen check of 20+ in combat generally also pinpoints your location while invisible, and then they'll be observing your position and you still can't Hide.

Getting your Hide skill up is only part of the job.

[kulosle]

Okay so whats the other part of the job?

[Curmudgeon]

Okay so whats the other part of the job?
Satisfying the requirements to make a Hide check, of course.

[killem2]

What about this thing;

Tanglefoot Bag: This round leather bag is full of alchemical goo. When you throw a tanglefoot bag at a creature (as a ranged touchattack with a range increment of 10 feet), the bag comes apart and the goo bursts out, entangling the target and then becoming tough and resilient upon exposure to air.

An entangled creature takes a –2 penalty on attack rolls and a –4 penalty to Dexterity and must make a DC 15 Reflex save or be glued to the floor, unable to move.

Even on a successful save, it can move only at half speed. Huge or larger creatures are unaffected by a tanglefoot bag. A flying creature is not stuck to the floor, but it must make a DC 15 Reflex save or be unable to fly (assuming it uses its wings to fly) and fall to the ground. A tanglefoot bag does not function underwater.

A creature that is glued to the floor (or unable to fly) can break free by making a DC 17 Strength check or by dealing 15 points of damage to the goo with a slashing weapon. A creature trying to scrape goo off itself, or another creature assisting, does not need to make an attack roll; hitting the goo is automatic, after which the creature that hit makes a damage roll to see how much of the goo was scraped off. Once free, the creature can move (including flying) at half speed. A character capable of spellcasting who is bound by the goo must make a DC 15 Concentration check to cast a spell. The goo becomes brittle and fragile after 2d4 rounds, cracking apart and losing its effectiveness. An application of universal solvent (see page 268 of the Dungeon Master’s Guide) to a stuck creature dissolves the
alchemical goo immediately.


Only issue is it doesn't say they become flat footed, but if they fail the reflex save they are unable to move.

If they are unable to move, is that not being flat footed?

[Curmudgeon]

If they are unable to move, is that not being flat footed?
No. Flat-footed (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/glossary&term=Glossary_dnd_flatfooted&alpha=F) just means you haven't acted yet for the current encounter.
flat-footed

Especially vulnerable to attacks at the beginning of a battle. Characters are flat-footed until their first turns in the initiative cycle. A flat-footed creature loses its Dexterity bonus to Armor Class (if any) and cannot make attacks of opportunity.

[killem2]

No. Flat-footed (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/glossary&term=Glossary_dnd_flatfooted&alpha=F) just means you haven't acted yet for the current encounter.

Typical. :smallannoyed:

I dunno about anyone else, but if My f'n feet were glued to the ground, I don't think I'd be too agile. LOL.

[kulosle]

What I meant was how can I get around all of the problems you mention.

Flat footed isn't not being agile, it's not being able to react. I can still see you and move my body some. You may be able to stab an artery in my leg while i'm glued to the floor but there is no way i'm letting you stab me in the eye.

[Morph Bark]

Typical. :smallannoyed:

I dunno about anyone else, but if My f'n feet were glued to the ground, I don't think I'd be too agile. LOL.

Flat-footed means you are caught by surprise or cannot brace yourself for the attack or are ready to evade it. If you cannot make move actions, you could still brace yourself for the attack, unless that is also specifically not allowed (as in cases where you lose your Dex bonus to AC).

Though why Iaijutsu Focus does not allow it to work against Dex-denied characters and only flat-footed ones, no clue. Maybe it was only intended to be used on the first strike in combat?

[Curmudgeon]

Though why Iaijutsu Focus does not allow it to work against Dex-denied characters and only flat-footed ones, no clue. Maybe it was only intended to be used on the first strike in combat?
Since it requires drawing your weapon, and (excepting shenanigans like the Gnome Quickrazor) there's no combat reason to draw a weapon more than once per encounter, it's very much aimed at a first strike.

[killem2]

What magical effects are the same as flat footed?

[Gavinfoxx]

Um, Grease on land-bound characters with under 5 ranks of Balance causes them to be flat-footed? Also, marbles do the same?

[killem2]

How about that Bigby's tripping hand?

[Gavinfoxx]

No, they need to be balancing and have under 5 ranks in the skill, not just 'likely to be tripped'. So Iceslick, Grease, Freezing Fog, stuff like that.

[killem2]

No, they need to be balancing and have under 5 ranks in the skill, not just 'likely to be tripped'. So Iceslick, Grease, Freezing Fog, stuff like that.

Interesting. Good to know, I have a rogue in our group.

[tyckspoon]

What I meant was how can I get around all of the problems you mention.


Get Hide In Plain Sight, typically. Being invisible satisfies one half of the Hide requirements- you have concealment. Hide In Plain Sight nullifies the other one- it lets you hide even if being observed. There's half a dozen or more versions of HiPS scattered around D&D, including a couple that are GP purchasable, so if you're doing a Hide-centric character you can probably get it.