killing some Gods

[Venser]

Hello :)

So, today a friend of mine will run a oneshot hack n' slash campaign where we will kill deities xD

Now, I have never fought a deity before, all I know about them from Deities and Demigods is that those things are insanely powerful and I honestly doubt that we could do much damage to them.

The rules:
PHB only for creating characters(up to lvl 20), epic level handbook from lvl 20 to lvl 30.
Only prestige classes from DMG with an exception of 1 radiant servant of pelor.
Starting Gold 760,000gp(we can buy magical items from all books)
32 point buy
No templates

What kind of character should I make to fight deities and is it even possible to beat them using the rules listed above.

[Aegis013]

Wizard 20.
Gate in a Solar who gates in a Solar. Fight deities with limitless Solar allies.

[Shadowleaf]

Wizard/Archmage. Kill a few Gods, planeshift back to your Genesis plane, be ready with a full set of buffs + refreshed spells the round (non-genesis time) after.

Really, most of the Gods are horribly unoptimized. Your only concern is Alter Reality, which is basicly "You and your party never existed. No save", plus the Deities can sense into the future concerning their domains (which makes killing Death-Gods a real pain, as the death of a deity is something they'd detect).

[Venser]

One thing I forgot to say, spells are only from phb and maybe one or two from epic level handbook.

Too bad those are the rules, otherwise I would send lvl 20 barbarian lvl 10 frenzied berserker to deal with Gods :P

[classy one]

"The gods are unoptimized" is kind of misleading IMO. Optimization is for people who have a limit on resources, like you only get a certain amount of feats or spells in 30 levels. Most gods have like 60 levels and spells and divine powers that make such limits insignificant. Alter reality is the most blatant one but the fact that they know almost anything without even trying is like a free hypercognition, and they can use 9th level spells at will.
If you are using epic rules while the gods are not they you might have a chance. If the DM is fair and uses epic feats and spells for the gods as well then you are screwed. The sidebar specifically states that a DM can incorporate epic rules to gods if he sees fit.

In the end, you could win, but only because the DM gave you an advantage.

[Shadowleaf]

"The gods are unoptimized" is kind of misleading IMO. Optimization is for people who have a limit on resources, like you only get a certain amount of feats or spells in 30 levels. Most gods have like 60 levels and spells and divine powers that make such limits insignificant. Alter reality is the most blatant one but the fact that they know almost anything without even trying is like a free hypercognition, and they can use 9th level spells at will.
If you are using epic rules while the gods are not they you might have a chance. If the DM is fair and uses epic feats and spells for the gods as well then you are screwed. The sidebar specifically states that a DM can incorporate epic rules to gods if he sees fit.

In the end, you could win, but only because the DM gave you an advantage.Have you seen the statblocks on most of the 3.5 Deities? They're terrible. Common problems include them being Level 40+ and only dealing ~200 damage on average with 1 energy type (mostly fire). Their HP and AC are usually laugh-able (it's extremely easy to 1-shot them with mild Evocation optimization), and they severely lack immunites (other than the usual divine ones, of course).

Really, if you can get around the "Rock Falls Everyone Dies" Alter Reality and future sight, plus finding a reliable way of surviving 1 round of combat/beating their initative (which may or may not be possible depending on their DR?), you have a pretty good chance of killing them.



One thing I forgot to say, spells are only from phb and maybe one or two from epic level handbook.

Too bad those are the rules, otherwise I would send lvl 20 barbarian lvl 10 frenzied berserker to deal with Gods :P
It's pretty much impossible for a non-caster to kill Gods if your DM has any idea of what he is doing, seeing as all (or almost all) of the Gods are epic spellcasters. You simply cannot compete with a 30 level Wizard as a 30 level Barbarian in any way, shape, or form.

[Alleran]

Alter reality is the most blatant one but the fact that they know almost anything without even trying is like a free hypercognition, and they can use 9th level spells at will.
The Avatar SDA is also one of the worst (granted, Alter Reality makes Avatar even more painful, but even without AR it's still way up there). The deity can just spam avatars at you while hiding within a demiplane with a 10000000:1 time trait that they created (or just from their godly realm if they happen to be DvR 16+). It's like astral projection on crack.

[Shadowleaf]

The Avatar SDA is also one of the worst (granted, Alter Reality makes Avatar even more painful, but even without AR it's still way up there). The deity can just spam avatars at you while hiding within a demiplane with a 10000000:1 time trait that they created (or just from their godly realm if they happen to be DvR 16+). It's like astral projection on crack.How can anything be more nasty than "The deity merely thinks of something and then makes it so"? :smallbiggrin:

[Alleran]

How can anything be more nasty than "The deity merely thinks of something and then makes it so"? :smallbiggrin:
The deity plus five copies of itself all thinking of different things and making them so?

[Lonely Tylenol]

Have you seen the statblocks on most of the 3.5 Deities? They're terrible. Common problems include them being Level 40+ and only dealing ~200 damage on average with 1 energy type (mostly fire). Their HP and AC are usually laugh-able (it's extremely easy to 1-shot them with mild Evocation optimization), and they severely lack immunites (other than the usual divine ones, of course).

Really, if you can get around the "Rock Falls Everyone Dies" Alter Reality and future sight, plus finding a reliable way of surviving 1 round of combat/beating their initative (which may or may not be possible depending on their DR?), you have a pretty good chance of killing them.

I wouldn't use the stat blocks on the 3.5 deities because they're terrible.

[Golden Ladybug]

Yeah, about that...No, thats wrong.

Remember, even though the Statblocks for Gods is in some dire need of work, they're certainly not limited to that. They have an inbuilt ability to change reality to see fit; they can optimise themselves on the fly, even if they don't want to just erase you from existence. This isn't even DM Fiat (well, it is, but only kinda); this is an inbuilt ability that D&D dieties have access to. If they want to chill with 40+ Levels of taking Toughness in their normal, godly lives, they can. When it comes to a fight, all it takes is a Free Action (that they grant themselves for being gods) to switch out all those bad feats for more applicable ones. They can get whatever gear they want out of nowhere. They can rearrange their ability scores.

And the kicker is that they don't even need to do that; they have a whole list of abilities that just ruin anyone trying to get at them. A God's Divine Aura can completely ruin anyone not optimised to make Will checks in the 30s-40s, by Frightening and then Dazing them as a Free Action. Their Portfolio Sense can shut down any attempt for you to sneak up on them weeks in advance, and Remote Sensing means they can know exactly what you're doing whenever they want to. You want to go after a God, then you're setting yourself up to walking into a huge trap that they set up, because they knew exactly what you were planning.

Then there is the whole "Additional Free Actions per round equal to Divine Rank thing" which means that regardless of what you do, they can grant themselves access to any number of defensive enchantments (for free) with no warning before you have any chance of doing anything. You throw that Hundred Bajillion Damage Orb of Force at them and they activate Energy Immunity Force as a Free action and then hit you back with something much bigger and meaner, bypassing any defenses you had (because they knew your defenses and picked the thing that beat it; remember Remote Sensing?). Or, they can Free Action Greater Teleport away.

And they automatically Roll 20s.

There are only three ways a PC can kill a God (I think)

1) they write an Epic Spell that has the effect of "Kills a God; No Save, No SR" in such a way that it never triggers the targets Portfolio Sense, or the Portfolio Sense of any God at all for that matter (Because it'd be really embarrassing for your plan to fall apart when a Magic God texts your target with the heads up)

2) They have another God helping them, by opposing the Target God's Powers and forcing them to fight against the unoptimised version of the God, without any Alter Reality or buckets of Free Actions shenanigans

3) The DM plays the Gods as stupid

Feel free to angrily rebute any of my points.

[Shadowleaf]

Yeah, about that...No, thats wrong.

Remember, even though the Statblocks for Gods is in some dire need of work, they're certainly not limited to that. They have an inbuilt ability to change reality to see fit; they can optimise themselves on the fly, even if they don't want to just erase you from existence. This isn't even DM Fiat (well, it is, but only kinda); this is an inbuilt ability that D&D dieties have access to. If they want to chill with 40+ Levels of taking Toughness in their normal, godly lives, they can. When it comes to a fight, all it takes is a Free Action (that they grant themselves for being gods) to switch out all those bad feats for more applicable ones. They can get whatever gear they want out of nowhere. They can rearrange their ability scores.

And the kicker is that they don't even need to do that; they have a whole list of abilities that just ruin anyone trying to get at them. A God's Divine Aura can completely ruin anyone not optimised to make Will checks in the 30s-40s, by Frightening and then Dazing them as a Free Action. Their Portfolio Sense can shut down any attempt for you to sneak up on them weeks in advance, and Remote Sensing means they can know exactly what you're doing whenever they want to. You want to go after a God, then you're setting yourself up to walking into a huge trap that they set up, because they knew exactly what you were planning.

Then there is the whole "Additional Free Actions per round equal to Divine Rank thing" which means that regardless of what you do, they can grant themselves access to any number of defensive enchantments (for free) with no warning before you have any chance of doing anything. You throw that Hundred Bajillion Damage Orb of Force at them and they activate Energy Immunity Force as a Free action and then hit you back with something much bigger and meaner, bypassing any defenses you had (because they knew your defenses and picked the thing that beat it; remember Remote Sensing?). Or, they can Free Action Greater Teleport away.

And they automatically Roll 20s.

There are only three ways a PC can kill a God (I think)

1) they write an Epic Spell that has the effect of "Kills a God; No Save, No SR" in such a way that it never triggers the targets Portfolio Sense, or the Portfolio Sense of any God at all for that matter (Because it'd be really embarrassing for your plan to fall apart when a Magic God texts your target with the heads up)

2) They have another God helping them, by opposing the Target God's Powers and forcing them to fight against the unoptimised version of the God, without any Alter Reality or buckets of Free Actions shenanigans

3) The DM plays the Gods as stupid

Feel free to angrily rebute any of my points.
Alter Reality is an at least standard action. Gods can't do half the stuff you're saying they can. :smallconfused:

[Calanon]

Deities can sense into the future concerning their domains (which makes killing Death-Gods a real pain, as the death of a deity is something they'd detect).

If this were true, Then Mystral would have predicted that Karsus was going to use his Avatar spell a few weeks in advance and would have just denied him access to the weave for that time :smallconfused:

(Its a plot hole... a really BAD plot hole...)

On a side note here are some more optimized gods (http://dicefreaks.superforums.org/viewforum.php?f=33) that a player on an old thread that was titled "What are gods not immune to" posted. I really like what they did with Mystra :smallbiggrin:

[Rubik]

I really like what they did with Mystra :smallbiggrin:Are you referring to the fact that her servitor creatures include My Little Ponies?

[Calanon]

Are you referring to the fact that her servitor creatures include My Little Ponies?

I love you so much right now
http://images.memegenerator.net/instances/400x/9823145.jpg

[Incanur]

While I agree Alter Reality makes it impossible for those without the ability to compete, it's not quite as unlimited as y'all claim. The most powerful combo I've seen is time stop plus simulacrum for an infinite army, though this assumes you can stack rounds of apparent time.

[Rubik]

I love you so much right now
http://images.memegenerator.net/instances/400x/9823145.jpgI do like Twilight.*





*Twilight Sparkle, not Vampire Sparkle.

[Gotterdammerung]

This topic has been kicked around the block more than a few times.

The deity stat blocks are misleading. This is because they are simplified. If you try to finitely stat something with infinite cosmic power, you either end up with a 20-60 page book (PER Deity!) OR the grossly simplified and misleadingly weak current stat blocks.

Truth is the deities are not weak, even with their current stat blocks. If you only look at AC, Hit points, ect. they may appear weak. But they have extra abilities with serious ramifications. Alter Reality alone represents the worlds single most powerful buff set up consisting of all day protection of every buff spell they want. Their extra powers of perception give them a very clear advantage and make them very hard to catch off guard. Their status as overlords of the universe give them very powerful resources in the form of tangible armies and allies.

The truth is, without DM fiat, or help from another deity, or the use of some mechanic outside of raw (massive sacrificial rituals, relic items of great power, houserules for achille's heel backdoor deity weaknesses) it is impossible for a group of mortals to kill a deity.

That being said, if you want suggestions for characters that would be most effective in destroying deities for your one shot session, I suggest either a bard spec'ed for diplomacy or a wizard or cleric spec'd for divination.

Reasoning-

The bard will have music so grand it grabs the attention of powerful outsiders as per the perform rules. This gives the bard the opportunity to rub elbows with other deities. When the time comes to pick and kill a God the bard will be in a good position to find other deific allies to support the cause.


The Diviner is the perfect candidate for finding backdoor weaknesses of the target Deity and can also locate powerful relics that can be used in the fight.


P.S. You might be thinking to yourself, "But deities get killed all the time in the stories I read."

And yes it is true, BUT if you notice, it is either through Author's Fiat (a more powerful version of DM's Fiat), or through the help of another deity, or through the use of some story specific imposed Achille's Heel the Deity has, or through the use of an artifact of ancient power.

So my definitive, broad statement still holds true. But take heart. You can use this fact of Deicide to your advantage. Just build your character with the power to utilize these time proven God-killing strategies.

[classy one]

Alter Reality is an at least standard action. Gods can't do half the stuff you're saying they can. :smallconfused:
they in fact can do a lot of what he said. Even if gods could only do half of what he said it is a rather signifigant hurdle. I find it interesting that you didn't refute what you disagreed with but just made a blanket statement.

Why would any god with alter reality even care about stat blocks? Alter reality can not only buff them with the best spells but also make those buffs permenant. Like I said, optimizing is for puny mortals who can't change reality on a whim.



Really, if you can get around the "Rock Falls Everyone Dies" Alter Reality and future sight, plus finding a reliable way of surviving 1 round of combat/beating their initative (which may or may not be possible depending on their DR?), you have a pretty good chance of killing them.

Oh I just have to get around te fact that they can erase me with a thought? And here I thought things would be difficult. Thank you for pointing that teeny weeny hurdle to deicide.

Honestly your statements just prove how hard it is to acutually kill a full fledged god.

[Alleran]

If this were true, Then Mystral would have predicted that Karsus was going to use his Avatar spell a few weeks in advance and would have just denied him access to the weave for that time :smallconfused:
She did predict it. She just didn't do anything about it, because she was more "elemental" than the later Mystra was and would never obstruct any individual's use of magic, no matter what use they were putting it to. She wouldn't have lifted a finger even to save her own life (except for when she suicided to reincarnate herself). When she came back as Mystra (who was more LN), she put in place a lot of rules and strictures to keep things like that from happening and so people wouldn't abuse its power. Mystra v2 eventually wound up doing the same thing.


Oh I just have to get around te fact that they can erase me with a thought?
Do you mean the Hand of Death/Gift of Life/Life and Death/Mass Life and Death line? Because yes, that's absolutely broken as far as combat is concerned. Once you get Life and Death, it's basically "you die, no saving throw" and makes for a really short fight.

[Campbellk8105]

Just curious, as this does not directly pertain to this thread since this book is out. But how affective would a Large Warhulking Hurler with 65 Str (without items, spells, tomes) at level 18 be against a god? Throwing a massive boulder at a god doing something like, 2049d6 damage. Even more than that with strength bumps and what not. Just curious as I plan on doing this to Tiamat in an upcoming campaign if all goes as planned.

[Rubik]

Just curious, as this does not directly pertain to this thread since this book is out. But how affective would a Large Warhulking Hurler with 65 Str (without items, spells, tomes) at level 18 be against a god? Throwing a massive boulder at a god doing something like, 2049d6 damage. Even more than that with strength bumps and what not. Just curious as I plan on doing this to Tiamat in an upcoming campaign if all goes as planned.Assuming the gods are played up to their Intelligence scores and have even standard spellcasting, you're not going to manage to do anything (and this isn't even including salient divine abilities).

They'll have so many contingencies and buffs going that you have a 0% chance of success.

That's IF all of the above is true.

[Campbellk8105]

Assuming the gods are played up to their Intelligence scores and have even standard spellcasting, you're not going to manage to do anything (and this isn't even including salient divine abilities).

They'll have so many contingencies and buffs going that you have a 0% chance of success.

That's IF all of the above is true.


Well, I've not played a campaign with this person playing as a DM before, but with everything I've seen the person do in campaigns, I do not believe that he will maximize contingencies/buffs/spells and everything else the gods can do.

Of course I will not be alone in the assault on the god, I was just curious if it'd actually be possible on my part to throw a boulder and hit the god with it.

[Gotterdammerung]

Well, I've not played a campaign with this person playing as a DM before, but with everything I've seen the person do in campaigns, I do not believe that he will maximize contingencies/buffs/spells and everything else the gods can do.

Of course I will not be alone in the assault on the god, I was just curious if it'd actually be possible on my part to throw a boulder and hit the god with it.

It is more likely that the God (if played to full potential) will redirect your boulder back at either you or one of your allies, obliterating them.

[Campbellk8105]

It is more likely that the God (if played to full potential) will redirect your boulder back at either you or one of your allies, obliterating them.

Oh my, yes, that would be very, very unfortunate now wouldn't it. Haha guess I'll have to see how it goes down later on.

[Zale]

You know, now I'm wondering how powerful a low ranking god with no class levels would be compared to the average adventurers...

[Alleran]

You know, now I'm wondering how powerful a low ranking god with no class levels would be compared to the average adventurers...
The lowest-level god is Imhotep in Deities and Demigods. He's a DvR 1 demigod with 20 Expert levels. A 12th or 13th level party could probably take him out, with a bit of luck.

[Shadowleaf]

they in fact can do a lot of what he said. Even if gods could only do half of what he said it is a rather signifigant hurdle. I find it interesting that you didn't refute what you disagreed with but just made a blanket statement.

Why would any god with alter reality even care about stat blocks? Alter reality can not only buff them with the best spells but also make those buffs permenant. Like I said, optimizing is for puny mortals who can't change reality on a whim.


Oh I just have to get around te fact that they can erase me with a thought? And here I thought things would be difficult. Thank you for pointing that teeny weeny hurdle to deicide.

Honestly your statements just prove how hard it is to acutually kill a full fledged god.I'll elaborate: Gods can't grant themselves actions, and especially not as a free action. If you argue that they can simply Alter Reality to give themselves the ability to do these things, you are basicly arguing two things:

The power of Alter Reality: Alter Reality mimics (ish) Wish albeit with no negative consequences. If my players ever tried to wish for something that powerful, I'd crush their characters in rammifications so steep Pun-Pun looks like a breeze of an encounter, plus I'd throw everything within range at them. In short: I'd say Wish couldn't do that, both for in-game and out-of-game reasons.

If the above is true, then the Gods wouldn't need free actions or actions at all, as a simple "I win at everything without even trying" Alter Reality would remove the need for any sort of pesky things like actions, spells or HP.

Yes, we can assume that Gods can simply re-write reality always all the time without consequences or limits of strength. But if we assume that, we can also pretty safely assume that no, you cannot beat them within the rules of the game, unless you throw in a God Killing Device the Gods simply missed to catch (read: DM Fiat), and if we're already using DM Fiat, why not just make the Gods abide by the rules of a Wish spell?

If one bothers to optimize the playstyle of a God, no one can beat them save perhaps Pun-Pun and other Gods. Using Alter Reality to make every buff spell permanent (as is listed to be within the range of Alter Reality), it would only take a few weeks/months to have NI spells always (especially since some spells can stack with themselves). If you wanted to have a battle vs a God in a campaign though, I would suggest not doing this, but rather use the personality of the God to find a reason why he wouldn't do it - God of Strength is so strong that he doesn't believe mere mortals can ever hurt him anyway.

[Rubik]

I'll elaborate: Gods can't grant themselves actions, and especially not as a free action. If you argue that they can simply Alter Reality to give themselves the ability to do these things, you are basicly arguing two things:

The power of Alter Reality: Alter Reality mimics (ish) Wish albeit with no negative consequences. If my players ever tried to wish for something that powerful, I'd crush their characters in rammifications so steep Pun-Pun looks like a breeze of an encounter, plus I'd throw everything within range at them. In short: I'd say Wish couldn't do that, both for in-game and out-of-game reasons.

If the above is true, then the Gods wouldn't need free actions or actions at all, as a simple "I win at everything without even trying" Alter Reality would remove the need for any sort of pesky things like actions, spells or HP.
There are spells and psionic powers that grant actions and alter actions such that you get them sooner, such as Hustle and Celerity.

Wish can mimic these.

[Shadowleaf]

There are spells and psionic powers that grant actions and alter actions such that you get them sooner, such as Hustle and Celerity.

Wish can mimic these.
True, but using Alter Reality is a standard action. So unless you have a way of saving up uses of Hustle/Celerity (to be honest, not very hard), it doesn't really matter.

[Calanon]

She did predict it. She just didn't do anything about it, because she was more "elemental" than the later Mystra was and would never obstruct any individual's use of magic, no matter what use they were putting it to. She wouldn't have lifted a finger even to save her own life (except for when she suicided to reincarnate herself). When she came back as Mystra (who was more LN), she put in place a lot of rules and strictures to keep things like that from happening and so people wouldn't abuse its power. Mystra v2 eventually wound up doing the same thing.

So she died... so that everyone can learn a lesson about magic? WHAT!? :furious: that is hands down the stupidest thing any creature (Sentient or otherwise) could possibly do! She could have simply denied Karsus access to the weave and appeared to him in a vision explaining why He wasn't allowed to cast his Avatar spell... DAMN she is the stupidest deity every :mad:

[Rubik]

True, but using Alter Reality is a standard action. So unless you have a way of saving up uses of Hustle/Celerity (to be honest, not very hard), it doesn't really matter.You also have metamagic and metapsionic feats, which you could use your Wish to add to them. "I wish for a manifestation of a Twinned Repeating Hustle."

[ClothedInVelvet]

Yes, we can assume that Gods can simply re-write reality always all the time without consequences or limits of strength. But if we assume that, we can also pretty safely assume that no, you cannot beat them within the rules of the game, unless you throw in a God Killing Device the Gods simply missed to catch (read: DM Fiat), and if we're already using DM Fiat, why not just make the Gods abide by the rules of a Wish spell?


I don't see a problem with this assumption. It's just assuming omnipotence, which is an aspect of divinity.

So PCs can't kill gods without DM fiat. Exactly. That doesn't strike me as counter to the way things should be.

[classy one]

I'll elaborate: Gods can't grant themselves actions, and especially not as a free action. If you argue that they can simply Alter Reality to give themselves the ability to do these things, you are basicly arguing two things:
Ah but they don't even alter reality to get all the time in the world. In their own realm they can alter time traits so that 1 second in the Prime equals 10 years in their realm. They can do this with a mere thought, and not need alter reality. And, as Rubrik has pointed out, there are powers and spells that grant actions which they can make permanent.


The power of Alter Reality: Alter Reality mimics (ish) Wish albeit with no negative consequences. If my players ever tried to wish for something that powerful, I'd crush their characters in rammifications so steep Pun-Pun looks like a breeze of an encounter, plus I'd throw everything within range at them. In short: I'd say Wish couldn't do that, both for in-game and out-of-game reasons.
Wish and alter reality are, as you said, similar but being able to duplicate 9th level spells is huge.
Make Timeless body permanent? Now who even cares if my HP sucks?
Need more time to buff while outside of my realm? permanent Time stop to the rescue.


If the above is true, then the Gods wouldn't need free actions or actions at all, as a simple "I win at everything without even trying" Alter Reality would remove the need for any sort of pesky things like actions, spells or HP.
Yeah that was the point I was trying to make. All your worries about optimizing, action economy, stat blocks is pointless. They just own you. If you can't do what they do and as well as they do, then you will lose.



Yes, we can assume that Gods can simply re-write reality always all the time without consequences or limits of strength. But if we assume that, we can also pretty safely assume that no, you cannot beat them within the rules of the game, unless you throw in a God Killing Device the Gods simply missed to catch (read: DM Fiat), and if we're already using DM Fiat, why not just make the Gods abide by the rules of a Wish spell?
The gods were not designed with balance remotely in mind. They are gods, and you won't kill one unless your DM wants you to or if you yourself also became a god.



If one bothers to optimize the playstyle of a God, no one can beat them save perhaps Pun-Pun and other Gods. Using Alter Reality to make every buff spell permanent (as is listed to be within the range of Alter Reality), it would only take a few weeks/months to have NI spells always (especially since some spells can stack with themselves). If you wanted to have a battle vs a God in a campaign though, I would suggest not doing this, but rather use the personality of the God to find a reason why he wouldn't do it - God of Strength is so strong that he doesn't believe mere mortals can ever hurt him anyway.
You're right, the best you could hope for is using the other super broken diplomacy skill to convince another god to make make you a god.
And like I said before, optimization is for mortals. Gods pick classes, feats, skills as they please because perma buffs are just a thought away.

[Shadowleaf]

You also have metamagic and metapsionic feats, which you could use your Wish to add to them. "I wish for a manifestation of a Twinned Repeating Hustle."
And that's a standard action, so you win initiative and get off your own Twinned Repeating Hustle first.



I don't see a problem with this assumption. It's just assuming omnipotence, which is an aspect of divinity.

So PCs can't kill gods without DM fiat. Exactly. That doesn't strike me as counter to the way things should be.
No, the Gods are not omnipotent. They are restricted by a ton of rules in fact. Everything they are able to do, they must do within the parameters of the system. Even if what they want to do is use Alter Reality to remove you from existance, they still need a standard action to do so. They have statblocks, ergo they don't have +Yes to everything.



Ah but they don't even alter reality to get all the time in the world. In their own realm they can alter time traits so that 1 second in the Prime equals 10 years in their realm. They can do this with a mere thought, and not need alter reality. And, as Rubrik has pointed out, there are powers and spells that grant actions which they can make permanent.
A 20th level Wizard has the same advantage in terms of time. Actually, anyone going to the God's plane has the same advantage (time traits on a plane is the same for everyone).
And no, you cannot make a spell with a duration of Instantaneous permanent.



Wish and alter reality are, as you said, similar but being able to duplicate 9th level spells is huge.
Make Timeless body permanent? Now who even cares if my HP sucks?
Need more time to buff while outside of my realm? permanent Time stop to the rescue.Why would you want permanent time stop? You'd never be able to do anything ever, since everything you do is outside the normal timeflow, and does not affect it until the spell ends.



Yeah that was the point I was trying to make. All your worries about optimizing, action economy, stat blocks is pointless. They just own you. If you can't do what they do and as well as they do, then you will lose.They can't really be prepared for everything. There are ways to kill something that's immune to basicly everything (except dying).



The gods were not designed with balance remotely in mind. They are gods, and you won't kill one unless your DM wants you to or if you yourself also became a god.Here is the rough foundation of where I'm coming from: WotC actually bothered to stat out the Gods. The Gods are not omnipotent, they have actual stats. With that in mind, WotC quite possibly meant for those stats to be used. The fact that some of the statblocks have prefered combat methods also points towards this.
If we're assuming they intended for the statblocks to be used to fight Gods, we could also assume they intended for the statblocks to be used as they are written, and not with +NI to all stats, skills, HP and so forth through an OOC library of spells. If one of my players wanted to fight a God and I wanted to use the WotC statblocks for them, I would assume that's their 'passive' state, i.e. unprepared for combat. If my player got a jump on the God, that's the statblock he would have in the first round of combat. If the God then got an action, depending on whether I want the player to succeed or not, I would then pull out the metamagic never ending turn shenanigans.
Is this the optimized way of using the tools available for a D&D God? Hell no, but the statblocks aren't optimized, why should we then assume the Gods' buffs are?



You're right, the best you could hope for is using the other super broken diplomacy skill to convince another god to make make you a god.
And like I said before, optimization is for mortals. Gods pick classes, feats, skills as they please because perma buffs are just a thought away.
They aren't a thought away, they are a standard action away. That standard action might be a Celerity spell away, but a smart, well-prepared epic character should have some way of stopping that.

Edit: Dat spelling. I mustn't post before morning coffee.

[Alleran]

So she died... so that everyone can learn a lesson about magic? WHAT!? :furious: that is hands down the stupidest thing any creature (Sentient or otherwise) could possibly do! She could have simply denied Karsus access to the weave and appeared to him in a vision explaining why He wasn't allowed to cast his Avatar spell... DAMN she is the stupidest deity every :mad:
No, and I'm not sure how you could draw that conclusion. Mystryl could have stopped all the Netherese from screwing around with magic so much that they were damaging it (i.e. a massive power drain) and forcing her to devote a lot of time to fixing the side effects, but that would be acting outside and against her purview. Mystryl, and her successors, are deities of magic. They must act within the confines of their portfolios, because that is their job. She can't just deny the Weave to somebody, the same way Oghma is forbidden from denying knowledge to somebody. The latter walked very close to the line when he denied knowledge of a source of misinformation to the gods (but couldn't deny it to mortals, or he'd have crossed said line). Mystra v2 crossed it several times before she was finally browbeaten into realising that she was forced to play by the same rules.

Karsus was working to advance magic by developing new spells, new ways of using magic, and progressing magical knowledge. This means he was not threatening Mystryl's portfolio, even with what his spell did. Mystra put new rules in place to prevent damage to the Weave from accumulating as it did with the Netherese, but even she couldn't remove the spell from existence. It still exists somewhere out there, but you can't get to it or cast it.

Mystra is also kind of like an OS for magic in FR. And later versions of that OS were more "advanced" than Mystryl. Which isn't to say she was stupid, but she was just elemental compared to her successors. In other words, Mystra took away the ability of spellcasters to steal the "source code" (which was possible under Mystryl, as Karsus proved) but also altered the system to make it easier to use. It's a primitive analogy, but I hope it serves.


And that's a standard action, so you win initiative and get off your own Twinned Repeating Hustle first.
As I recall, don't deities have that SDA which means they always go first, without exception?

With regards to Wish at will, IIRC wizards can duplicate it by rapidly shapechanging into various Zodars each turn. Or if you have the Shannara setting, you can try and get your hands on the Wishsong (wish at will, standard action, verbal component, spell-like ability) and then use Quicken-SLA and Supernatural Transformation to make it a quickened (Su) ability.

[classy one]

A 20th level Wizard has the same advantage in terms of time. Actually, anyone going to the God's plane has the same advantage (time traits on a plane is the same for everyone).
And no, you cannot make a spell with a duration of Instantaneous permanent.

You misunderstood me. Fighting a god in his own realm is just dumb, you would not gain any "advantage" at all, it is plainly stated that the gods are the most powerful in their own realm. I meant that if they needed time to prepare for a fight, let making a bunch of buffs permanent or creating a few artifacts, then they have basically infinite amounts of time to prepare. You make a big deal of alter reality being only a standard action, but why would that matter if you have all the time in the multiverse and no worries about buffs running out.



Why would you want permanent time stop?
Even out of his/her godly realm, a god still has all the time in the world to buff up and do some research on you. My point was even if you were fighting him out of his realm (a smart move) you still have to contend with him having much more actions/time than you.
Let's not forget my perma Timeless Body example, which even as a standard action means you will not be affecting him. Ever.



They can't really be prepared for everything. There are ways to kill something that's immune to basicly everything (except dying).
You have yet to convince me. They can indeed prepare for everything, just their basic senses allows them to do that. Any god played to his Int score will have buffs and contingencies set up well in advance. Most ppl that post here don't have godlike Int and we all thought of them, why is it so hard for you to accept it?



Here is the rough foundation of where I'm coming from: WotC actually bothered to stat out the Gods. The Gods are not omnipotent, they have actual stats. With that in mind, WotC quite possibly meant for those stats to be used. The fact that some of the statblocks have prefered combat methods also points towards this.
If we're assuming they intended for the statblocks to be used to fight Gods, we could also assume they intended for the statblocks to be used as they are written, and not with +NI to all stats, skills, HP and so forth through an OOC library of spells. If one of my players wanted to fight a God and I wanted to use the WotC statblocks for them, I would assume that's their 'passive' state, i.e. unprepared for combat. If my player got a jump on the God, that's the statblock he would have in the first round of combat. If the God then got an action, depending on whether I want the player to succeed or not, I would then pull out the metamagic never ending turn shenanigans.
Is this the optimized way of using the tools available for a D&D God? Hell no, but the statblocks aren't optimized, why should we then assume the Gods' buffs are?
They have stats and descriptions and all that jazz because WotC want you to know that a god of death will kill you outright with Life or Death (no save), a god of war will stomp your face in (no save), a god of magic will tear you into atoms (no save), and a god of maddness will mind rape you (no save). See all the variety?
We focus a lot on alter reality but there are other really bad divine abilities out there. Life and Death and avatar are right up there as well, but even something innocent sounding like battlesense (never surprised), automatic metamagic (free persist). The extra free actions, that all gods get, are very handy when combined with instant counterspell. See the statblocks and descriptions are there so you will know exactly who curb stomped you.
Or it is for you to undergo a divine campaign, complete with rules on how to make a PC god and how combat between them would work. Does that make you feel a bit better?



They aren't a thought away, they are a standard action away. That standard action might be a Celerity spell away, but a smart, well-prepared epic character should have some way of stopping that.
You keep saying that while ignoring the fact that that one standard action can be used to generate more actions. I mentioned timestop, but temporal acceleration is another. Both have durations longer than instantaneous. There are other ways to make a lot of actions when you have divine abilities, you just don't seem to see that.
I don't know why it is so hard to grasp that gods are kind of untouchable. Could a mortal kill a god? Sure, its happened but almost always with the assistance of other gods or a powerful artifact. This shouldn't be a revelation, but just the way of the world. If you want to do something with those stat blocks then start a divine campaign. It looks fun.

[classy one]

As I recall, don't deities have that SDA which means they always go first, without exception?
now that you mention it:

Supreme Initiative
This is an extraordinary ability.

Prerequisites
Dex 29, Improved Initiative.

Benefit
The deity goes first in the initiative order, no matter what its initiative result is or what initiative result anyone else in an encounter or battle has.

[Shadowleaf]

You misunderstood me. Fighting a god in his own realm is just dumb, you would not gain any "advantage" at all, it is plainly stated that the gods are the most powerful in their own realm. I meant that if they needed time to prepare for a fight, let making a bunch of buffs permanent or creating a few artifacts, then they have basically infinite amounts of time to prepare. You make a big deal of alter reality being only a standard action, but why would that matter if you have all the time in the multiverse and no worries about buffs running out.


Even out of his/her godly realm, a god still has all the time in the world to buff up and do some research on you. My point was even if you were fighting him out of his realm (a smart move) you still have to contend with him having much more actions/time than you.
Let's not forget my perma Timeless Body example, which even as a standard action means you will not be affecting him. Ever.


You have yet to convince me. They can indeed prepare for everything, just their basic senses allows them to do that. Any god played to his Int score will have buffs and contingencies set up well in advance. Most ppl that post here don't have godlike Int and we all thought of them, why is it so hard for you to accept it?


They have stats and descriptions and all that jazz because WotC want you to know that a god of death will kill you outright with Life or Death (no save), a god of war will stomp your face in (no save), a god of magic will tear you into atoms (no save), and a god of maddness will mind rape you (no save). See all the variety?
We focus a lot on alter reality but there are other really bad divine abilities out there. Life and Death and avatar are right up there as well, but even something innocent sounding like battlesense (never surprised), automatic metamagic (free persist). The extra free actions, that all gods get, are very handy when combined with instant counterspell. See the statblocks and descriptions are there so you will know exactly who curb stomped you.
Or it is for you to undergo a divine campaign, complete with rules on how to make a PC god and how combat between them would work. Does that make you feel a bit better?


You keep saying that while ignoring the fact that that one standard action can be used to generate more actions. I mentioned timestop, but temporal acceleration is another. Both have durations longer than instantaneous. There are other ways to make a lot of actions when you have divine abilities, you just don't seem to see that.
I don't know why it is so hard to grasp that gods are kind of untouchable. Could a mortal kill a god? Sure, its happened but almost always with the assistance of other gods or a powerful artifact. This shouldn't be a revelation, but just the way of the world. If you want to do something with those stat blocks then start a divine campaign. It looks fun.I'm not questioning the fact that an optimized God can kill any mortal - keeping tap on all mortals, always go first, free action counterspell with +NI CL and Alter Reality should ensure plenty o' rocks falling.

However, I am using the printed statblocks as the foundation of my argument. With the printed statblocks, the Gods suck compared to their potentional. What I'm saying is I think this was semi-on purpose (let's not assume too much, it is WotC after all) that they made the Gods beatable through extreme preparations and system knowledge.

It comes down to this from my point of view: With the printed statblocks, the Gods are very beatable, especially since (if fluff is anything to base it on) they do not keep taps on all mortals all the time. However, I wouldn't put it past impossible for an Epic Wizard to, say, use Gate to Bluff the Deity of Nature to discuss a matter of grave importance or whatever, and then Celerity+prefered God killing combo (I'm a big fan of Searing Spell, seeing as an Evocation Wizard killing a God is kinda funny to me). Now, there are obviously a lot of flaws in this plan (Contiguency being the #1), but careful planning should be able to get around this. Most of the Gods don't have access to the "Rock Falls Everyone Dies" divine abilities, because they are so poorly optimized.


tl;dr: Optimized Gods are unbeatable, the printed ones are not.

[Golden Ladybug]

In regards to Gods not getting Free Actions



Automatic Actions
When performing an action within its portfolio, a deity can perform any action as a free action, as long as the check DC is equal to or less than the number on the table below. The number of free actions a deity can perform each round is also determined by the deity’s divine rank.

While my comment that they could just keep taking Free Actions whenever the hell they want was slightly misleading, since they can only do so when it is related to their Portfolio, they can still perform a stupendous amount of actions per round with little to no cost. Coupled with this;



Grant Spells
A deity automatically grants spells and domain powers to mortal divine spellcasters who pray to it. Most deities can grant spells from the cleric spell list, the ranger spell list, and from three or more domains. Deities with levels in the druid class can grant spells from the druid spell list, and deities with paladin levels can grant spells from the paladin spell list. A deity can withhold spells from any particular mortal as a free action; once a spell has been granted, it remains in the mortal’s mind until expended.

Emphasis mine.

Gods don't need to play by the rules, unless they want to. Barring incidents such as Mystra just deciding that letting herself get killed was a swell idea, Gods don't go down. They don't go down at all, and trying is near fruitless.

unless you're the Snarl. That tends to work

[Shadowleaf]

In regards to Gods not getting Free Actions



While my comment that they could just keep taking Free Actions whenever the hell they want was slightly misleading, since they can only do so when it is related to their Portfolio, they can still perform a stupendous amount of actions per round with little to no cost. Coupled with this;



Emphasis mine.

Gods don't need to play by the rules, unless they want to. Barring incidents such as Mystra just deciding that letting herself get killed was a swell idea, Gods don't go down. They don't go down at all, and trying is near fruitless.

unless you're the Snarl. That tends to workSo our Wizard can't be harming Nature and he won't be able to cast Druid spells granted by the God whilst fighting him/her. Good to know. :smalltongue:

[Hirax]

To anyone pointing out how weak deity stat blocks are, keep in mind that Deites and Demigods came out in early 2002. The entire Complete series didn't exist yet, for instance.

I think the real crime is that they were statted in the first place, and not updated down the road in 3.5.

[Golden Ladybug]

So our Wizard can't be harming Nature and he won't be able to cast Druid spells granted by the God whilst fighting him/her. Good to know. :smalltongue:

My first reaction to this was something along the lines of: :smallannoyed:

But after considering it, my reading of that ability is probably not the RAI function of that text, although I'm sure a case could be made that the usage of the ability to withhold spells could be used to shutdown a Wizard, although considering that...no, I think the weaker reading would be more appropriate here.

Although it does mean that any Archivist, Cleric or Druid (as well as Paladins or Rangers) is taken out of the engagement automatically, because the Diety in question can just turn off their spellcasting mechanism.

So, not only do only casters have a chance at taking on Gods, but all Divine casters are removed from the running straight away.

So really, attempted killing of Dieties is a proffession restricted to suicidal Wizards and Sorcerers.

[Shadowleaf]

My first reaction to this was something along the lines of: :smallannoyed:

But after considering it, my reading of that ability is probably not the RAI function of that text, although I'm sure a case could be made that the usage of the ability to withhold spells could be used to shutdown a Wizard, although considering that...no, I think the weaker reading would be more appropriate here.

Although it does mean that any Archivist, Cleric or Druid (as well as Paladins or Rangers) is taken out of the engagement automatically, because the Diety in question can just turn off their spellcasting mechanism.

So, not only do only casters have a chance at taking on Gods, but all Divine casters are removed from the running straight away.

So really, attempted killing of Dieties is a proffession restricted to suicidal Wizards and Sorcerers.I'm fairly certain you can only withhold spells you are granting. Boccob can withhold spells from a Cleric of Boccob, for instance.

[Alleran]

I'm fairly certain you can only withhold spells you are granting. Boccob can withhold spells from a Cleric of Boccob, for instance.
Well, it doesn't really say that. It says that a deity can withhold spells from any particular mortal as a free action. That could just be that Boccob can only withhold spells from somebody who asks for them (i.e. draws spells from him). Or it could be that he could withhold divine spells from any mortal, even if they draw spells from a different source.

You have to take it somewhat out of context to get the second reading, I think, since at the start of that section it's talking about granting spells to mortals who pray to it.

[Shadowleaf]

Well, it doesn't really say that. It says that a deity can withhold spells from any particular mortal as a free action. That could just be that Boccob can only withhold spells from somebody who asks for them (i.e. draws spells from him). Or it could be that he could withhold divine spells from any mortal, even if they draw spells from a different source.

You have to take it somewhat out of context to get the second reading, I think, since at the start of that section it's talking about granting spells to mortals who pray to it.You're right, of course. RAW wise, Boccob could withhold spells from a Wee Jas Cleric. In terms of RAI and phrasing, though, it's hard to 'withhold' something you aren't granting. If WotC wanted Boccob to be able to do that, they'd probably written "deny" instead.

[Zale]

Ah but they don't even alter reality to get all the time in the world. In their own realm they can alter time traits so that 1 second in the Prime equals 10 years in their realm. They can do this with a mere thought, and not need alter reality. And, as Rubrik has pointed out, there are powers and spells that grant actions which they can make permanent.



A greater deity (rank 16 or higher) also can perform any one of the following acts:

Change or apply a gravity trait within the realm.
Change or apply an elemental or energy trait within the realm.
Change or apply a time trait within the realm.
Apply the limited magic trait to a particular school, domain, or spell descriptor within the area, preventing such spells and spell-like abilities from functioning. The greater deity’s own spells and spell-like abilities are not limited by these restrictions.

Once a deity sets the conditions in its realm, they are permanent, though the deity can change them. As a standard action, the deity can specify a new environmental condition. The change gradually takes effect over the next 10 minutes. Changing astral links, planar traits, or terrain requires more effort, and the deity must labor for a year and a day to change them. During this time, the deity must spend 8 hours a day on the project. During the remaining 16 hours of each day, the deity can perform any action it desires, so long as it remains within the realm. The astral links, planar traits, and terrain remain unchanged until the labor is complete.


I didn't even know there were rules for gods on the SRD. Until this discussion sparked my interest, that is..

A greater deity would have to work a year and a day to change the time ratio of their mini-plane. Not exactly as quick as a thought..

[Gotterdammerung]

I'm not questioning the fact that an optimized God can kill any mortal - keeping tap on all mortals, always go first, free action counterspell with +NI CL and Alter Reality should ensure plenty o' rocks falling.

However, I am using the printed statblocks as the foundation of my argument. With the printed statblocks, the Gods suck compared to their potentional. What I'm saying is I think this was semi-on purpose (let's not assume too much, it is WotC after all) that they made the Gods beatable through extreme preparations and system knowledge.

It comes down to this from my point of view: With the printed statblocks, the Gods are very beatable, especially since (if fluff is anything to base it on) they do not keep taps on all mortals all the time. However, I wouldn't put it past impossible for an Epic Wizard to, say, use Gate to Bluff the Deity of Nature to discuss a matter of grave importance or whatever, and then Celerity+prefered God killing combo (I'm a big fan of Searing Spell, seeing as an Evocation Wizard killing a God is kinda funny to me). Now, there are obviously a lot of flaws in this plan (Contiguency being the #1), but careful planning should be able to get around this. Most of the Gods don't have access to the "Rock Falls Everyone Dies" divine abilities, because they are so poorly optimized.


tl;dr: Optimized Gods are unbeatable, the printed ones are not.

You keep missing the point. There is no such thing as an optimized God. The basic printed stat block ALREADY allows for all these tricks. Using a trick that a creature ALREADY has in place is NOT optimization. I mean really, it would be like calling a barbarian "optimized" because he used rage.

You say you are using the printed stat block as the basis for your argument. Well, So are we. Every trick stated so far, is just basic abilities listed in the printed stat blocks of these deities.

The "printed" God is the "optimized" God. If you DM a God only using it's Attack, initiative, saves, hp, skill checks, and other basic statistics THEN you are SOFT-PLAYING that God.

If you want to see a TRUE OPTIMIZED DEITY, then start a new thread with a contest in it, similar to the iron chef threads. Challenge everyone to build the most powerful deity from the ground up. As these crazy cracked out forum goers scour the book for the most effecient SDA's and such, you will see the most cracked out optimized Deity. You will get stupid powerful entries with silly names like "Ricky the God of Spank". Instead of having unoptimized class lvls like 20 barbarian/20 fighter/10 cleric/20 outsider these Gods will have optimize their 50-60 class lvls and even add in strong prestige classes. They will go completely nuts when they decide to actually use their WBL and their God ability to create magic items with a thought.

No, no, no the given stats for Deities is by no means optimized. There is soooo much room for improvement. And that is the POINT. God's do not need to optimize. Optimization is for mortals.



You also keep referring to this whole "they have to take a standard, so I can just kill them before they get a standard" strategy. IT DOESN'T WORK THAT WAY. There isn't anyway for you to "Get a jump on a God".

Example: in another thread, people spent pages trying to explain ways around Zeus' ability to see 19 weeks into the future. They created their own planes to plot in. They plotted underground. They attempted to time travel to bypass it. And they used various other creative ideas. In the end, NONE of them worked. Because when they finally arrive in front of Zeus, ready to attack him, Zeus will be under the open sky and therefore he will see them arrive 19 weeks ago. This gives Zeus an unbeatable advantage. It means that he could have attacked you anytime between now and 19 weeks ago. It means he had time to learn everything about you. It means he had time to call together very threatening forces of allies to hound you or protect him. It means he can just not be there when you come to attack. It means he can prep the final battlefield with numerous insta-kills for you. He knows exactly where you will stand when you arrive. He can prep those squares with innumerable Deific traps. And in fact, if he chooses to fight the battle when you arrive, HE HAS ALREADY SEEN EVERYTHING THAT YOU WILL DO IN THIS FIGHT. So this idea you had, that the God cannot have defenses against everything, is RIDICULOUS. He already has seen everything you threw at him. He can most certainly alter his buff set to counter everything you do.


You mention pun-pun. Well pun-pun can't even become a Deity without the help of another Deity. And once he becomes a Deity he IS a Deity. So again, even pun pun falls under the criteria of how a God dies.

[Zale]

Did they try disguising themselves as hot women?

If I wanted to defeat Zeus, I'd just find get a Cha-pumped bardic sex-god to seduce him.

:smalltongue:

Of course, Hera would murderlyze the bard afterwards, but eh. Acceptable losses.

[Calanon]

No, and I'm not sure how you could draw that conclusion. Mystryl could have stopped all the Netherese from screwing around with magic so much that they were damaging it (i.e. a massive power drain) and forcing her to devote a lot of time to fixing the side effects, but that would be acting outside and against her purview. Mystryl, and her successors, are deities of magic. They must act within the confines of their portfolios, because that is their job. She can't just deny the Weave to somebody, the same way Oghma is forbidden from denying knowledge to somebody. The latter walked very close to the line when he denied knowledge of a source of misinformation to the gods (but couldn't deny it to mortals, or he'd have crossed said line). Mystra v2 crossed it several times before she was finally browbeaten into realising that she was forced to play by the same rules.

Karsus was working to advance magic by developing new spells, new ways of using magic, and progressing magical knowledge. This means he was not threatening Mystryl's portfolio, even with what his spell did. Mystra put new rules in place to prevent damage to the Weave from accumulating as it did with the Netherese, but even she couldn't remove the spell from existence. It still exists somewhere out there, but you can't get to it or cast it.

Mystra is also kind of like an OS for magic in FR. And later versions of that OS were more "advanced" than Mystryl. Which isn't to say she was stupid, but she was just elemental compared to her successors. In other words, Mystra took away the ability of spellcasters to steal the "source code" (which was possible under Mystryl, as Karsus proved) but also altered the system to make it easier to use. It's a primitive analogy, but I hope it serves.

Wow this really changed my opinion of the Karsus's Folly event took place... :smallsmile: thank you, Alleran for changing my opinion of one of my favorite settings :smile: Alleran has obtained +1 internet