D&D 3.5: Thicket of Blades?

[ShadowAegis]

What is the earliest level a single-classed Crusader can acquire Thicket of Blades (without using the Martial Stance feat)? If I'm reading certain sources (unofficial D&D wiki, WotC*, etc.) correctly, some state dips into Crusader acquire Thicket of Blades at level 2, while what I'm interpreting from Tome of Battle is level 8 for a straight Crusader. (Ex: Fighter6/Crusader2 vs. Crusader8)

* I believe the information was posted on Wizards of the Coast forums, but cannot confirm whether or not the author was an employee/affiliate of WotC.
WotC post link: http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19871270/Tome_of_Battle_for_Dummies

Thank you for your time. :smallsmile:

** I may have figured out the answer, but I'd like some reassurance. That 1/2 HD mechanic sure is amazing.

[Eldariel]

X 6/Crusader 2 has the Initiator Level necessary for it (5). Crusader 5 would qualify too but you don't get a new stance before 8, so you are correct; by natural progression, you won't get it before 8. Taking Martial Stance on 6 and retraining it when you get the stance naturally tho is a rather reasonable option (one of the better uses of the retraining rules IMHO).

[ShadowAegis]

Aha, thank you very much for clearing that up. This realization is amazing.
Sorry to prod, but now I'm curious what's the earliest a Class X/Crusader could get Thicket of Blades, and honestly, I'm having an impossible time trying to figure out the Initiator level of a X 4/Crusader (3? Required level 3?). Would a Knight4/Crusader1 qualify for Thicket of Blades?

Thank you very, very much in advance.

[Golden Ladybug]

Unfortunately not, but don't worry, the whole issue is a rather confusing set of rules that the "Next Door Neighbors of the Necromancers of the Sea" never really clarified properly. The Tome of Battle Errata even starts talking about Complete Mage halfway through.

Anyway, to determine the Initiator Level of a Multiclassed Martial adept, you take the levels you have in your Martial Adept class (in this case, Crusader), which grant you full IL progression. So, Crusader 1 has an IL of 1. All class levels you take in a class that is not a Martial Adept (I'll come back to this) grants you 0.5 of an IL, which rounds down. So, a Crusader 1/Fighter 2 would have an IL of 2.

To aquire Thicket of Blades, which is a 3rd level stance, you need an Initiator Level of 5, and as such, the two ways in which you can aquire it are Crusader 1/X 6/Crusader +1 or simply Crusader 5 (taking Martial Study to qualify). For the most part, taking the 6 Levels of [Not Crusader] is more efficient than taking the Martial Study route, and it also saves your Crusader 8 Stance for a higher level stance than simply Thicket of Blades, which is good, but not as good as it could be.

Now, just to clarify, Martial Adepts do indeed grant full IL progression...in their own class. A Warblade/Crusader mutliclass does NOT have an IL equal to the sum of its class levels. It instead has two different Initiator Levels, one for its Warblade Maneuvers and one for its Crusader levels. So, if we have Crusader 1/Warblade 6/Crusader +1, the Warblade side would have an Initiator Level of 7 (6 Levels of Warblade, and (2*1/2) Levels of Crusader) and the Crusader Side would have an Initiator Level of 5 (2 Levels of Crusader and (6*1/2) Levels of Warblade).

Tome of Battle might be full of nice things for Melee, but there are many reasons lots of DMs don't allow it at their tables. This is certainly one of them.

[marcielle]

Remeber that othermartial classes count as 1 IL instead of 0.5. That will help you get it much earlier, not to mention open up 2-3 schools.

[kardar233]

Ah, no. This is a common misconception.

A Fighter2/Warblade4/Crusader2 has a Crusader IL of 5, and a Warblade IL of 6. Other initiator classes count as half just like non-initiators do.

[ShadowAegis]

Haha, that was rather confusing, but I got it now though. Thanks everyone! :smallsmile:

[hex0]

Human Paragon work?

[The Underlord]

Keep in mind while dipping, some dms will enforce the 'begins play with one level one stance' clause to prevent you from dipping crusader 1 to get the stance. I personally believe you should not do that, but some dms will.

[DeusMortuusEst]

Bloodline shenanigans might also work as a early entry trick.

[Essence_of_War]

Sidenote:

While it is not single-classed, I think that the fastest way to get Thicket of Blades w/o burning a feat is:

Cleric2/Crusader3/ Ruby Knight Windicator X

The RKV gets a stance known at level 1.

You can also do it this way:
Cleric6/Crusader1/RKV1

And get Thicket of Blades at the same time as a single classed Crusader of equal level, but have what is probably a more objectively powerful (read: Spellcasting!) build.

[A_S]

I think Thicket of Blades and other AoO/Trip optimization on an RKV build with Divine Defiance is the ultimate no-button build. Something like:

-----

Human (32 point buy)

Str: 15
Dex: 14
Con: 14
Int: 14
Wis: 8
Cha: 14

Flaw (shaky), Flaw (vulnerable)

1 - Favored Soul 1 - Combat Reflexes, Combat Expertise, [Power Attack], Improved Trip
2 - Favored Soul 2
3 - Favored Soul 3 - [Deft Opportunist]
4 - Favored Soul 4 - Str 16
5 - Crusader 1
6 - Church Inquisitor 1 - Practiced Spellcaster (Favored Soul)
7 - Church Inquisitor 2
8 - Church Inquisitor 3 - Cha 15
9 - Church Inquisitor 4 - Mounted Combat
10 - Sacred Exorcist 1
11 - RKV 1
12 - RKV 2 - Divine Defiance, Cha 16
13 - RKV 3
14 - RKV 4
15 - RKV 5 - Robilar's Gambit
16 - RKV 6 - Cha 17
17 - RKV 7
18 - Prestige Paladin 1 - Defensive Sweep
19 - Prestige Paladin 2
20 - Prestige Paladin 3 - Cha 18

(feats in [brackets] are to be dropped if flaws aren't allowed)

-----

Fight with a Ranseur and use size-boosting buffs. Opponents in your (large) reach provoke AoOs, which can be trip attempts, if they:
-Move (even 5 feet)
-Don't move
-Attack you
-Attack someone else

...and you can counterspell with a +24 on the check as an immediate action (and still have swift actions next round if you need them, thanks to RKV). Only problem is it's super MAD (can only dump Wis).

[MesiDoomstalker]

build snip

Ok, this build doesn't work on a few levels, but it can be easily fixed. Deft Opportunist needs Dex 15 and you don't have that at 3rd. You can swap Travel Devotion and Deft Opportunist and take your 4th level stat bump to Dex or you could start with Dex 15 instead of Str 15. Prestige Paladin needs Mounted Combat which your lacking. Your choice on which feat to replace with Mounted Combat but I'd just leave Prestige Paladin out and go Contemplative or something.

EDIT: If you don't fit Prestige Paladin you can't take Defensive Sweep without using Fractional BAB or taking another level of RKV. But after that a level of Contemplative for bonus Domain casting.

[A_S]

Mounted Combat is in there, but you're right, I forgot the Dex requirement for Deft Opportunist while fiddling.

Sacred Exorcist 2 or RKV 8, followed by 2 levels of Contemplative, would be a fine finish to the build if you want to avoid the Mounted Combat tax. Depends on whether you think Cha to saves and 1 BAB are worth 1 caster level, a feat, and a bonus domain.

[MesiDoomstalker]

Mounted Combat is in there, but you're right, I forgot the Dex requirement for Deft Opportunist while fiddling.

Sacred Exorcist 2 or RKV 8, followed by 2 levels of Contemplative, would be a fine finish to the build if you want to avoid the Mounted Combat tax. Depends on whether you think Cha to saves and 1 BAB are worth 1 caster level, a feat, and a bonus domain.

Wow, how did I miss Mounted Combat? But anyways I'm going to put my analysis here:

To get Cha to saves which should be somewhere between +6 to +9 which means about a 30% to 45% increase in save chances. Your Will save will already be massive (despite a Will penalty) and your Fort save should be large, especially with high level Con. Your Ref is the only one lacking but failing a Ref save holds far less consequences than a Fort or Will. But it costs you 1 of your 10 feats. Plus your attacks are 5% more likely to hit but at this point, AC doesn't matter any ways.

On the Contemplative dip, we gain access to a new Domain and open up a feat and don't loose another CL. With Practiced Caster, your CL won't change but you will be casting as a Favoured Soul 18. What do you get at 18? 9th level spells. And guess what SpC domain Wee Jas grants? Planning. And what is Planning's 9th level spell? Time Stop. Need I say more? Of course I do. You get 3 9th level spells known at 18th casting, so you can Take Miracle, Time Stop (as per Complete Divine, you must still choose a Domain spell as a spell known), and your choice of another Cleric 9 spells. So you've snagged spontaneous casting of Cleric list below 8th and spontaneous casting of any spell below 7th, the ability to give yourself a buffing round (rather important without DMM: Persist), and one other 9th level shenagian.

But again, its personal preference. I would do RKV 8 (extra maneuver goodness) Contemplative 2. I'd fill the open feat slot with Quicken Spell. But again, thats just me.

[A_S]

No ninth level spells, unless I'm dumber than I think. You lose one caster level at Crusader 1 and two more at RKV 1 and 6, for a max of 17 caster levels. Losing the one at PrC Paladin 2 brings you down to 16.

[MesiDoomstalker]

No ninth level spells, unless I'm dumber than I think. You lose one caster level at Crusader 1 and two more at RKV 1 and 6, for a max of 17 caster levels. Losing the one at PrC Paladin 2 brings you down to 16.

Drat I forget Crusader! Well there goes my argument! I'm off my game today. :smallsigh:

EDIT: Why in this instance do we take RKV? It gives us extra Swifts but I'm failing to see why we need this. The only swift actions I see are, Immidiate Action Dispels (not all to common), Shadow Hand boosts (possibly more common) and Travel Devotion (probably every round). The Cleric list isn't stuffed with swift action spells as the Sorc/Wiz list either. I don't think being able to use more than 1 of those in a round is worth loosing 9ths. I'm not trying to be confrontational or anything, just trying to wrap my head around this build and feel like I'm missing something.

[A_S]

Maybe I overestimate the value/frequency of immediate action dispels. The build concept is to be able to no-button anything that anybody tries to do to your party, and always having to use your only swift action on that if you're facing a caster seems like it would hurt (since you couldn't use any boost maneuvers or swift action moves/teleports the next round).

I imagine a fight where you're facing a necromancer and all his undead mooks: Without RKV, you have to decide between shutting down his spellcasting and getting into position for AoOs/using Defensive Rebuke to stop the melee fighters from getting to your party. With RKV, you can do both, and use the swift-activated Dispelling Cord to boot.

You may well be right that picking up 9th level spells would be more powerful, but I thought this was more in line with the "shut down all your opponents no matter what they try to do" theme. Maybe it's not worth it, I dunno.

Spontaneous casters can't use the Anyspell line, even with a bonus domain, can they? If they could, would be nice to pick up Celerity :P .

[MesiDoomstalker]

Maybe I overestimate the value/frequency of immediate action dispels. The build concept is to be able to no-button anything that anybody tries to do to your party, and always having to use your only swift action on that if you're facing a caster seems like it would hurt (since you couldn't use any boost maneuvers or swift action moves/teleports the next round).

I imagine a fight where you're facing a necromancer and all his undead mooks: Without RKV, you have to decide between shutting down his spellcasting and getting into position for AoOs/using Defensive Rebuke to stop the melee fighters from getting to your party. With RKV, you can do both, and use the swift-activated Dispelling Cord to boot.

You may well be right that picking up 9th level spells would be more powerful, but I thought this was more in line with the "shut down all your opponents no matter what they try to do" theme. Maybe it's not worth it, I dunno.

Spontaneous casters can't use the Anyspell line, even with a bonus domain, can they? If they could, would be nice to pick up Celerity :P .

Fitting with theme of "no, you can't" build? Yes. Worth it? Debatable. My opinion, Miracle and Time Stop are pretty aweseom.

But to answer your spell, if you grab the Spell domain (without refluffing the entry req for RKV, you can't because Wee Jas doesn't have access to it) you can use Anyspell and Greater Anyspell no problem. You just need a Wizard buddy's spellbook. And to pick up Celerity (I'm assuming the PHBII spell) no domain grants it but Greater Anyspell can give it to you. Though you can only use it to give yourself 1 casting of it in a 6th level slot instead of 4th.

[Tokuhara]

Question: In a Setting where Wee Jas is a dead power, could Ur Priest/RKV work?

[A_S]

Question: In a Setting where Wee Jas is a dead power, could Ur Priest/RKV work?

Sure, though now you actually require every single attribute :P .

@Mesi, you sure about Anyspell? It explicitly mentions that the arcane spell you pick up takes up your domain slot, which Favored Souls don't have...picking up a bonus domain just adds the spells to your spell list, right, doesn't give you domain slots?

[MesiDoomstalker]

I must of over looked that. But the rules on non-clerics gaining domains they are still limited to one domain-granted spell per level. So you have a pseudo-domain slot but it can be filled with a regular spell or a domain spell. By RAW, no. But I don't think its game breaking to allow Anyspell be used without a domain slot per sae. Talk to your DM. Or don't. Unless they are very big on RAW, most will do what I did and overlook the domain slot thing, either intentionally or not.