Its wizard hunting season [3.5]

[kulosle]

In an upcoming campaign I'm running I find myself in need of a character who's sole purpose is to slay any one who relies too heavily on magic. This is inspired by the wizard vs warrior thread but i am looking for the exact opposite build. I don't want it to be defensive. I'm thinking of a sniper or some other stealth build maybe uses death attack. I'm not entirely sure. As someone who likes to make wizards a lot I can only think of ways how it would be nearly impossible to do so. Any advice would be most greatly appreciated.

This is a level 20 gestalt one shot (no xp gained) high optimization campaign. This character is an NPC that the party may or may not fight. He might just come kill one of them and then run for it. It's a party of 4. This is a campaign designed to kill them, they are aware of this and already have 4 back up characters made. My job is to kill all of them. Yes they will be using mindsight.

[Wings of Peace]

It's not -really- a sniper (sure you could force it to be one) but Cleric with Initiate of Mystra + an AMF Field will solve a lot of problems you'll encounter.

[Golden Ladybug]

What level are we talking about here?

[Randomguy]

Mage slayer, pierce magical concealment and pierce magical protection would be a good start.
Have high ranks in hide, move silently and listen. Carry around bags of flower (They're an item in dungeonscape) and throw them at places near where you can hear invisible people.
Dispelling weapons would be good. So would magebane weapons.
Any weapon property or feat that lets you sneak attack things normally immune to sneak attack is a huge plus.

[hushblade]

I think I heard of a way to fire an arrow that puts an anti-magic field on the ground where it lands? That's a good start for tactics.

[Eldan]

Darkstalker is a must.

[The Glyphstone]

Well, the obvious answer is 'another wizard', but your OP heavily implies that's not what you want.

The first thing you need to know, or decide, is how powerful/paranoid the wizards you're hunting are. If they're extremist ultra-paranoid Astral-Projecting-from-their-personal-demiplane fully-buffed-at-all-times-with-a-hundred-contingencies casters, there's no point. Toning down from there gives you something to aim at.

[awa]

there are some ranger spells that could boost a sniper a lot their one that makes your next hit an auto critical i think there is also a variant that lets you take arcane casters as a favored enemy and favored enemies bonus multiplies on critical i believe remember bows have a times 3 crit. there is also a ranger spell that lets you ignore range increment penalties so you can shoot at him from over a thousand feet depending on level you would need to be level 15 to be able to match that with even a long range spell.

also consider an animal companion with poison and see if your dm will allow you to milk it, also see if your dm will allow the companions feats that boost its dc to apply to the poison the dc still wont e all that high but arcane casters tend to have poor fort saves and with feats like rapid shot and many shot you can force him to make a lot of saves.

High initiative is a must if you have a lot of single strike damage you might be able to kill a wizard in the first round of combat before he has his buffs up. Improved initiative is 4 there is at least one magic item that gives +2 and an eager spiked gauntlet would be another +5 although all of those is probably over kill

having silence cast on a harpoon or other weapon that is hard to get rid of is also effective. alternatively a silenced small viper could just hide near the wizard.

edit it wont work on a high op wizard but then very little does

[Flickerdart]

Foresight, contingency, celerity, dire tortoise...after a certain point, it is impossible to win initiative against a wizard. Even in the early levels, it is very difficult, because Nerveskitter + Hummingbird + Improved Initiative from Martial Wizard gives the Wizard +13 initiative before Dexterity. Coupled with the myriad buffs that last 24 hours or more, you will never find an unbuffed wizard beyond a certain point either.

At 1000 feet, you would need to have a hell of a spot check to even notice the wizard coming, and even that scenario is frankly absurd, because the wizard will not waste his time walking anywhere when he has Teleport and Phantom Steed, and tracking him down by mundane means is impossible when he can just leave the plane and come back anywhere at any time, especially since he's got the divination tools to let him know that someone's tracking him, and then counter-track him in a fraction of the time.

So no, those tactics wouldn't even work on a mid-op wizard.

[marcielle]

Arrow with an Antimagic Field + sovereign glue?

[Flickerdart]

Arrow with an Antimagic Field + sovereign glue?
The only way to get an AMF on an arrow in the first place is through Arcane Archer with enough Wizard levels to cast it, and the glue takes a round to set, so the target could just pull it off and chuck it aside.

[Darthteej]

Foresight, contingency, celerity, dire tortoise...after a certain point, it is impossible to win initiative against a wizard. Even in the early levels, it is very difficult, because Nerveskitter + Hummingbird + Improved Initiative from Martial Wizard gives the Wizard +13 initiative before Dexterity. Coupled with the myriad buffs that last 24 hours or more, you will never find an unbuffed wizard beyond a certain point either.



You're assuming the DM knows, understands, and is willing to use these tricks.

[Eldariel]

The way to fire Anti-Magic Field Arrows involves a full caster with two levels of Arcane Archer (e.g. Bard 8/Arcane Archer 2/Sublime Chord 2/Sacred Exorcist 4/Abjurant Champion 4 - generally Star Elf). While efficient, I'm not certain that's what the OP desires here. The good part is that you can fire them directly at the opponent and they still work, of course.

Really, stealth is the one mundane ability that's somewhat more complex for casters to overcome. Hide in Plain Sight + Darkstalker + Hide means a Wizard without Mindsight, Lifesense, Touchsight or similar will have a hard time locating you (though all of those are accessible through magic, of course; they're somewhat counterable too though, each in their own way).


Other than that, obviously one needs to have both, good archery and good stand-up fighting routine. Archery is a plausible way of actually killing a Wizard without having them do anything too drastic if you can launch lethal volleys at massive ranges (more a factor of your Spot than your weapon range at this point). Most of the standing long-duration defenses are somewhat inefficient against archers, though obviously Celerity and Contingency act as catch-alls.

Being able to prevent a caster you actually reach from casting spells is pretty necessary. Since you want Pierce Magical Concealment anyways, you'll have Mage Slayer so building some manner of base Lockdown build is suggested. It's not infallible, but we're talking about beating a class with an answer to anything; nothing is going to be infallible. The best you can do is cover as many contingencies as you can imagine, maximize your first strike and the ability to cause your opponent to make mistakes, and punish him for those; and of course, have as many unexpected abilities as you can fit in one build (one reason I tend to favor ToB builds; stuff like Iron Heart Surge, White Raven Tactics, Quicksilver Motion, Hearing the Air, Island in Time, etc. tends to fall outside what one would expect from a mundane).

[Flickerdart]

You're assuming the DM knows, understands, and is willing to use these tricks.
And you're assuming that he doesn't? It is generally safer to aim for the top rather than think "hey, the DM sucks at wizards" and then being splattered across the Seven Heavens. Also, you know, making a build that kills a wizard so unoptimized that he doesn't even know good core spells is not what we in the business call difficult.

[Elboxo]

Cragtop Archer with a wand of Hunter's Mercy ( I think that's the name, next arrow is a crit ) and whatever PrC/ammunition or poison you want to deal your damage from out of the caster's range.

Or Darkstalker on a swifthunter with bow that has poisons.

Though personally I'd go with a grappler with a large movement speed and the ability to turn on a charge/run over difficult terrain, possibly Travel Devotion Cleric dip/Barbarian - Bear-Totem 5, making the most of the Cleric dip with wands and such. The whole grappler idea does depend a lot on the level though, if this is post level 9, for example, you are definitely going to need flight and immunities to several things.

[Flickerdart]

grappler
Heart of Water, Freedom of Movement, Abrupt Jaunt, Contingency, Dimension Door, Polymorph et al. Grappling a spellcaster is at best going to get you nothing, and at worst going to get you eaten when he turns into a big scary monster after slipping out and eats your face off.

[Dr.Epic]

It's not -really- a sniper (sure you could force it to be one) but Cleric with Initiate of Mystra + an AMF Field will solve a lot of problems you'll encounter.

A cleric that hunts people who rely too much on magic? Am I the only one who sees the irony there?

[Rubik]

A cleric that hunts people who rely too much on magic? Am I the only one who sees the irony there?It's a case of 'if you don't fight fire with fire you're gonna get burned'.

[Suddo]

If I may ask what level are we trying to optimize too? If its 10 or lower this may be a possible optimization but if at 20 its going to be near impossible to do.

And yes this build is going to have to use magic. The OP stated relied heavily on magic is the ones he hunts.

Edit: Oh and you should be a warforged. If you can stay on the wizard til he sleeps you might stand a chance.

[Treblain]

Grey Elf Archivist 11/Arcane Archer 2/whatever. Magical Training feat qualifies you for Arcane Archer. Zen Archery gets Wis to attacks. Get the spell Hunter's Eye for sneak attack damage, and Antimagic Field as a 6th level divine spell by buying a scroll from a cleric with the Magic or Protection domain. You can fire Antimagic Field arrows, as well as Dispel Magic arrows and so on. Follow up with Quickened Entangle or something to keep them from escaping the AMF. The rest of your build is free to work on other stuff, like stealth and sniping. You can swap archivist for cleric, and take the Elf Domain for free Point Blank Shot and the Magic Domain for a lot of good anti-magic spells.

[Flickerdart]

Dispel Magic CL caps prevent it from being very useful, and the area attack mode means that they're even more useless. You can't cast Entangle into an AMF. Except for Hunter's Eye, you have no advantage whatsoever over a Wizard-based Arcane Archer.

[ericgrau]

Heart of Water, Freedom of Movement, Abrupt Jaunt, Contingency, Dimension Door, Polymorph et al. Grappling a spellcaster is at best going to get you nothing, and at worst going to get you eaten when he turns into a big scary monster after slipping out and eats your face off.

When you're high enough level. Before then grappling works pretty well as the rest are unavailable, require a concentration check, require an action, require casting ahead of time when X attack might come without notice, consume significant resources while working only against 1 of 10 possible attacks, or are cost prohibitive. No attack is certain, but it's good for the OP to find attacks that often work well and grappling is one of those.

[Flickerdart]

Dedicating yourself to an attack mode that literally stops working after a couple of levels (and is completely useless against the vast majority of monstrous opponents) is usually not a great idea, though.

[ericgrau]

Get multiple attack options. Plus I was looking at some stats a while back and grappling, even focusing on it, keeps up pretty well through mid-high levels with an enlarge effect. Go psychic warrior and even without a big focus your checks are ridiculous right through 20.

Heart of water and abrupt jaunt are ridiculously OP compared to their core counterparts, and anyone who uses them deserves to be hit with similar cheese. Contingency, dimension door and polymorph on a caster are far too specific and impractical to even be worth mentioning; they can fail or eat time/resources that could be used elsewhere when facing everything else in the entire world. The only practical option (besides abrupt jaunt and heart of water) is a ring of freedom of movement and then only after level 15 or so when it doesn't eat such a huge chunk of your wealth that it leaves you gimped at other things. Nothing is 100%, but it's good to look at options with a good chance.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Get multiple attack options. Plus I was looking at some stats a while back and grappling, even focusing on it, keeps up pretty well through mid-high levels with an enlarge effect. Go psychic warrior and even without a big focus your checks are ridiculous right through 20.

Heart of water and abrupt jaunt are ridiculously OP compared to their core counterparts, and anyone who uses them deserves to be regrappled a second time with an impassable psychic warrior check. Contingency, dimension door and polymorph on a caster are far too specific and impractical to even be worth mentioning; they can fail or eat time/resources that could be used elsewhere when facing everything else in the entire world. The only practical option (besides abrupt jaunt and maybe heart of water) is a ring of freedom of movement and then only after level 15 or so when it doesn't eat such a huge chunk of your wealth that it leaves you gimped at other things.

Freedom. Of Movement.

Your grapple check is invalid.

And having multiple attack options doesn't mean you're good enough at multiple attack options.

Also: Polymoprhing into dragon.

[ericgrau]

Wizards can't cast it without heart of water.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Wizards can't cast it without heart of water.

Archivists, bards, clerics, and druids are all targets of caster slayers.

As for the wizard, Polymoprh into a dragon. Fly speed, physical stat boosts, natural armor, there's really no reason you wouldn't stay in it.

[ericgrau]

Dragons have too many HD and there's that pesky HD cap, plus BAB remains unchanged. Polymorphing a wizard into a dragon is a horribly weak idea 90% of the time and not too hard to beat even when it is a good idea. And when you're already grappled and find out it might help you can't cast it. This is what I mean about ideas that are so specific or cheesy that they aren't even worth mentioning.

Also, this be a wizard thread.

My meaning here is to focus on things that might be useful for the original poster. From a practical optimization standpoint grappling a good thing on a mage hunter levels 1-15. At those levels the practical defense to it is hiding behind others and other such nonspecific defenses like certain illusion spells and mobility transmutations. They're not as absolute for the sake of theoretical arguments but they're more realistic. An ok option 90% of the time is better than an absolute 10% of the time, on both offense and defense.

[DonutBoy12321]

Kills anyone too reliant on Spellcasting?
Psionics. The answer is psionics.
As far as race, Karsites are built for caster killing. Aside from that being their life's goal, they get SR, heal themselves if their SR blocks a spell, and a couple stat boosts.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Dragons have too many HD and there's that pesky HD cap, plus BAB remains unchanged. Polymorphing a wizard into a dragon is a horribly weak idea 90% of the time and not too hard to beat even when it is a good idea. And when you're already grappled and find out it might help you can't cast it. This is what I mean about ideas that are so specific or cheesy that they aren't even worth mentioning.

You can turn into a surmount red at 7th level. Get 150 ft fly speed, a strength boost, and natural armor to make up for any lost dexterity and then some. Can use natural weapons in a grapple.

[manamyst]

make him a walking dead magic zone 10ft/level
Foresight, contingency, celerity, all sundley fail

[Flickerdart]

make him a walking dead magic zone 10ft/level
Foresight, contingency, celerity, all sundley fail
Then, even if you somehow fall into that range, you take a move action to ride your bound Nightmare out of the dead magic zone and then proceed to abscond by whatever means you prefer. Big deal.

[Gavinfoxx]

make him a walking dead magic zone 10ft/level
Foresight, contingency, celerity, all sundley fail

Unfortunately, the Wizard just runs outside (or if it acts like an antimagic zone, and is thus an emanation effect, dimension doors out of it from under his cap) of the dead magic zone, flies/dimension doors up, casts Wall of Stone / Wall of Iron (maybe from a scroll?) into the dead magic zone, blasts him with acid orbs (maybe from a wand), or gates something powerful in, or has the golem he made crunch you, or forcecages/wall of force's you, etc. etc.

[Coidzor]

You're assuming the DM knows, understands, and is willing to use these tricks.

He did specify mid-op, yes. :smallconfused:
So no, those tactics wouldn't even work on a mid-op wizard.


A cleric that hunts people who rely too much on magic? Am I the only one who sees the irony there?

A cleric of the god of magic who promotes magic use, no less.


Heart of water and abrupt jaunt are ridiculously OP compared to their core counterparts, and anyone who uses them deserves to be hit with similar cheese.

I do believe that was the point of bringing them up as examples of obstacles to know and overcome, yes. :smallconfused:


Contingency, dimension door and polymorph on a caster are far too specific and impractical to even be worth mentioning; they can fail or eat time/resources that could be used elsewhere when facing everything else in the entire world.

No, nothing is not worth mentioning as things to be aware of in the wizard's arsenal that the DM can use. Considering the narrative power of the DM and wizards, relying on enemy wizards not having buff time after a certain point is deliberate blunting of one's preparations with no guarantee of a similar blunting on the DM's part, so I'm not quite sure why you think that's a good suggestion.

Hell, wealth and DMs is its own sticky subject.

[kulosle]

I guess I should of mentioned, I'll edit the op, but this is a level 20 high optimization campaign. This character is an NPC that the party may or may not fight. He might just come kill one of them and then run for it. It's a party of 4. This is a campaign designed to kill them, they are aware of this and already have 4 back up characters made. My job is to kill all of them.

This guy must be mostly mundane. His point is that the body is the most important tool, so no psionics.

I don't like the idea of using precision damage because it only applies within a small range and if he got within that range the party would simply kill him. Unless there are ways of applying precision damage from a distance that I am unaware of.

I don't know how someone would survive long enough to grapple a full caster.

And the players will not be on another plane. They will be paranoid due to the type of campaign, but they won't take such drastic measures.

What are ways of getting anti divination onto a mostly mundane character? Is the forsaker class worth it? It certainly fits the theme.

[Hiro Protagonest]

...You're trying to make a level 20 character with no casting or magic items.

Yeah, you're doomed.

[Rubik]

...You're trying to make a level 20 character with no casting or magic items.

Yeah, you're doomed.I think the only possible way to do anything without magic or psionics is with ToB or something similar. You'll have to find a way to do tricks without using magic, and there are very very very few options for this.

HOWEVER, there are a few. Check out Lucid Dreaming abuse, for example. And Diplomacy (which, alas, doesn't work on PCs, and turning someone fanatical is [mind-affecting] anyway).

Most mundane tricks don't let you think outside the box, and of those that do, most just aren't powerful or versatile enough to even start to threaten a paranoid wizard at higher levels. And a number of those have fairly easy magical counters.

So either go with the few that work (none of which are physical, other than MAYBE ToB), or go with magic.

[edit] What about ghost possession?

[kulosle]

I think the only possible way to do anything without magic or psionics is with ToB or something similar. You'll have to find a way to do tricks without using magic, and there are very very very few options for this.

HOWEVER, there are a few. Check out Lucid Dreaming abuse, for example. And Diplomacy (which, alas, doesn't work on PCs, and turning someone fanatical is [mind-affecting] anyway).

Most mundane tricks don't let you think outside the box, and of those that do, most just aren't powerful or versatile enough to even start to threaten a paranoid wizard at higher levels. And a number of those have fairly easy magical counters.

So either go with the few that work (none of which are physical, other than MAYBE ToB), or go with magic.

[edit] What about ghost possession?

Sorry I didn't mean with items. I should have worded that better, or maybe not be online so late at night. What I meant is his classes. He can't be anything like a binder/truenamer/soulmelder/spellcaster/psionic/shadow mage/and anything else i might be forgetting. Maneuvers are fine. I'll start looking into what would work best with that. Finally something (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/prestigeClasses/slayer.htm#cerebralBlind) that foils mindsight, but it's psionics. Darn.

[Rubik]

Why not egoist/slayer? Go self-buffs and sneak in a bit of dispelling (via a suppression weapon) with the Mage-Slayer feats? Feats don't cross the magic/psionics transparency line, so you don't lose MLs with them.

Fluff it as having perfection of bodily control.

[suhkkaet]

I know you're saying no spellcasters, but..
What about a few levels of Spellthief in there? Coupled with the mage slayer feats and you can't really cast many spells yourself, but you can steal your enemies spells (and/or absorb 'em, if you take enough levels).
Also look at taking either 2 levels of monk or rogue, 5 levels of scout or 9 levels of ranger for the Spell Reflection ACF in CMage.
And possibly 3 levels of rogue or barbarian for Spell Sense ACF, also in CMage.
+1 to AC against spells/SLA's (Spell Sense) and the ability to reflect the spell back on the caster when a spell misses? Nice.

Then consider Spelltouched (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/buildingCharacters/spelltouchedFeats.htm) feats. (Not so useful with Mage Slayer feats, though)

Fluff-wise, it probably makes sense. Especially as a rogue/something who hunts down magic users.

While I havn't look at the PrC myself, Suel arcanamach is described as a Mage-Slayer in CArc, so you could also look at that.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Also look at taking either 2 levels of monk or rogue, 5 levels of scout or 9 levels of ranger for the Spell Reflection ACF in CMage.
And possibly 3 levels of rogue or barbarian for Spell Sense ACF, also in CMage.
+1 to AC against spells/SLA's (Spell Sense) and the ability to reflect the spell back on the caster when a spell misses? Nice.

Obviously you take 2 levels of monk, 2 levels of rogue, and 3 levels of hexblade. Spell Reflection, Evasion, and Mettle.

[Dusk Eclipse]

Sorry I didn't mean with items. I should have worded that better, or maybe not be online so late at night. What I meant is his classes. He can't be anything like a binder/truenamer/soulmelder/spellcaster/psionic/shadow mage/and anything else i might be forgetting. Maneuvers are fine. I'll start looking into what would work best with that. Finally something (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/prestigeClasses/slayer.htm#cerebralBlind) that foils mindsight, but it's psionics. Darn.

Note that while it advances psionics techncaly Slayer doesn't need Psionic manifesting to enter, just a PP reserve which you can get from feats, races and even magical location. Since you are the DM you can also alter it to advance other things, perhaps maneuvers? I would give him a Maneuver progression similar to Eternal Blade and access to Diamond Mind Shadow Hand and perhaps Tiger claw.

[Feralventas]

If the DM allows a little Pathfinder, there's a 20K set of goggles that removes the range-limit for precision damage like sneak attack, and grants a +2 bonus on damage per die of sneak attack damage used *edit here* If The Target Is Within The 30 Foot Range. Sorry, the +2 doesn't apply at range.

[Hiro Protagonest]

I didn't see Divine magic among the list of options bared

He keeps saying magic! Not arcane, just magic!

[Feralventas]

He keeps saying magic! Not arcane, just magic!

Glad I apologized in advance then >.>;.

Post edited for redundancy then.

[Randomguy]

Hide and move silently are very helpful, since most divinations are for seeing the invisible, not the hidden. Countered by mindsight though.

Make him an archer with all sorts of ranged enhancing things, and give him the ranged pin feat (Unlike the other ranged X feats, this one has no range limit). Make sure you give him a way to actually see people from that far away as well, since spot rules are messed up. Even though most characters can easily make a DC 15 strength/escape artist check, it still delays the wizard a little. Or expend their heart of water to gain the benefit of freedom of movement.

Page 64 of MM2 shows a bunch of mundane items, including a cable and cable spool. Attach a large magnet (magnets are found in dungeonscape, just rule that the pull strength is proportionate to the weight of the magnet) to the end of a cable, which is tied to an arrow. Fire the magnet arrow and then retract the cable using the spool to effectively steal a character's weapon. This works better on the melee members of the party, though. You could count it as an improvised weapon, and give him the appropriate penalties.

Use all sorts of alchemical items that could give you an edge, like a tanglefoot bag.

Find ways to make the caster use up resources in the middle of combat/ right before combat, so you attack right after they killed something tough. Or attack at night, if your party ever sleeps outside of a rope trick.

Attack the party while they're in a dead magic zone.

Sunder magic items.

Mimic Kore (http://www.goblinscomic.com/09122005/). Use a tremendous strength score to carry around an adamantine/mithral wall. Put it on wheels so that you can turn it while it's deployed. Add in arrow slits so you can still fire. Add in a mechanism that lets you deploy it with an immediate action.

Make your own version of vow of poverty that only prohibits magical items (If you plan to have your NPC not use any). Make it actually worthwhile. Make the feat represent your NPC's mindset. I suggest you allow your NPC to use (and make some exceptions into the feat so that he can use them) some magic items, like bags of holding and healing potions. I suggest ability score bonuses as one of the bonuses that the feat gives, since the build will need high stats.

You could use the combat trapsmith PrC to make a bunch of traps. Have the PC's chase him through a maze of narrow, twisty corridors, while he lays traps all along the way.

Give him a good mount, (possibly via an animal companion.)and clothes, armour and a helmet that's all lead lined to make him divination proof.
If you get him animal companions, he'll stand a stronger chance by virtue of strength in numbers. Both the beastmaster and beast heart adept grant extra animal companions. You can use the handle animal skill to give all animal companions the warbeast template.

If you take levels in rogue and monk for evasion+spell reflection, make it bonus feat rogue (since you're not going to be using precision damage anyway) and overwhelming attack monk, (Unlike flurry of blows, overwhelming attack can be used with armour. I think) since even with a quarterstaff, double damage rocks, since it doubles 1.5 times your strength bonus (Since you'd be using a quarterstaff as a 2h weapon) and the bonus to damage you get from power attack, as well. It's not ubercharger damage, but still good. Use your monk bonus feat to get you stunning fist: you might just find use for it, and it's better than improved grapple since you can use it and then run.

Use poison. Megapede poison, from MM2, DC 44 save for constitution damage. It won't kill anyone, but it might make them spend some cash/spells/ a contingency to resist it.
Use ditherbombs, from dragon magic (or possibly races of the dragon) for when you need a powerful explosive.

Try and get the party to split up. One on 5 is bad odds for you, but 1 on 2 is better. Sunder magic items and spell component pouches.

If you're desperate to have a single character provide a challenger for the party, make him low epic or make him gestalt.

See if you can give him mundane weapons that have magical affects. For example, a razor boars tusks.

Lastly, ban genesis. It's not possible for a mundane character to beat a wizard that lives in another plane and only adventures via astral projection.

[kulosle]

I'm okay with him having magic items. I like the idea of reworking Vow of Poverty though. I don't like the idea of spell thief, but i might go for something like ranger or paladin, but those classes kind of suck. I was thinking about the Harmonizing Knight variant of paladin in Champion of Valor and optimizing IC.

[Flickerdart]

Hide and move silently are very helpful, since most divinations are for seeing the invisible, not the hidden. Countered by mindsight though.

Make him an archer with all sorts of ranged enhancing things, and give him the ranged pin feat (Unlike the other ranged X feats, this one has no range limit). Make sure you give him a way to actually see people from that far away as well, since spot rules are messed up. Even though most characters can easily make a DC 15 strength/escape artist check, it still delays the wizard a little. Or expend their heart of water to gain the benefit of freedom of movement.
So, your suggestion is to try and slow the wizard down instead of killing him? This is a bad suggestion. If you have a clear shot, you want to do as much as you can to incapacitate your enemy, not inconvenience them.



Page 64 of MM2 shows a bunch of mundane items, including a cable and cable spool. Attach a large magnet (magnets are found in dungeonscape, just rule that the pull strength is proportionate to the weight of the magnet) to the end of a cable, which is tied to an arrow. Fire the magnet arrow and then retract the cable using the spool to effectively steal a character's weapon. This works better on the melee members of the party, though. You could count it as an improvised weapon, and give him the appropriate penalties.

Think about what you're saying. How exactly do you plan to fire an arrow in such a way that it can pull an enormous magnet without being completely off-balance? It's not an improvised weapon, it's just impossible, especially given that you're trying to aim for the character's weapon. What if it hits their body instead? Also, you're an archer, your strength isn't going to be as high as a frontliner's, so unless you let go of your silly rope thing they're just going to pull you towards them and then kill your face.


Use all sorts of alchemical items that could give you an edge, like a tanglefoot bag. ...

Sunder magic items.

Again - wasting actions on non-lethal attacks is a great way of getting killed.



Mimic Kore (http://www.goblinscomic.com/09122005/). Use a tremendous strength score to carry around an adamantine/mithral wall. Put it on wheels so that you can turn it while it's deployed. Add in arrow slits so you can still fire. Add in a mechanism that lets you deploy it with an immediate action.

Disintegrate. Gust of Wind.



You could use the combat trapsmith PrC to make a bunch of traps. Have the PC's chase him through a maze of narrow, twisty corridors, while he lays traps all along the way.

Why would the PCs bother chasing him when he's leaving all this free loot behind?



Give him a good mount, (possibly via an animal companion.)and clothes, armour and a helmet that's all lead lined to make him divination proof.

Not how divinations work. A solid lining of lead may stop some of the cone-based ones, but it will also make it impossible to see, and give you lead poisoning.



Lastly, ban genesis. It's not possible for a mundane character to beat a wizard that lives in another plane and only adventures via astral projection.
You don't need Genesis for this. You can just stick your body in a Magnificent Mansion instead.

[Doc Roc]

The only way to get an AMF on an arrow in the first place is through Arcane Archer with enough Wizard levels to cast it, and the glue takes a round to set, so the target could just pull it off and chuck it aside.

Technically you can use a glyph seal. I like Tenser's transformation in a greater glyphseal, since it shuts off casting with no save if you target their square.

[Piggy Knowles]

Vecna-Blooded template gets you past most divinations. Make sure you consistently hit a DC 80 Spot/Listen check, which will pierce any illusions and easily see anything invisible. Stealth plus darkstalker is definitely going to be important. If they happen to be in a dire tortoise form, just ignore them and wait until they change.

Don't stack everything you have onto a single attack, in case they've got some sort of contingency set up to negate that first attack. Find ways of getting as many actions as possible. You will probably only have one round, so if you can extend that one round to two or three, that's for the best.

I know it's not exactly a non-caster, but for this, I'd probably go for something like a Factotum 8/Warblade 1/Trapsmith 1/Swiftblade 10. Or something. Just stack on ways to get a lot of actions at once, use every dirty trick you can think of, and always have an escape plan.

[A_S]

Are the characters you're trying to kill the ones from the "All the cheesse" thread?

Either way, high-op level 20 characters are probably going to have ways to kill essentially anyone if they ever get to act, and they're going to have ways to make it extremely hard to keep them from acting (stuff like Foresight + Celerity + Initiate of Mystra). So the order in which immediate actions are resolved is going to be very important, and I can't find anything that clarifies that.

Anybody know how this works? Like, if Dude A declares an attack, and Dude B casts Celerity to avoid it, can Dude A cast Celerity (or some other immediate action) to mess with whatever Dude B is doing to avoid the attack in the first place? In what order do the actions resolve? What if Dude A starts with an immediate action attack in the first place?

[Togo]

I find masters of many forms make excellent wizard slayers.

They're fast, they're flexible, they're tough enought to withstand several rounds of spellcasting, mordenkinian's disjunction is almost useless against them, they can get immunity to spells, mind effecting or most energy types, earthglide, the 'crush' ability, the ability to see invisible and ethereal creatures, heal themselves, and so on.

If you allow 3.0 material, then savage species' assume supernatural ability feat will give you an even wider variety of wizard-tromping options, including antimagic cones (beholder).

A key question is whether your high level wizard target will feel obliged to stick with the party. If he doesn't he'll be quite hard to kill, because wizards are great at running away, but he'll be almost totally ineffectual as far as the party is concerned.

If you can count driving the wizard away as a 'win', then it becomes much easier. If not, and he just teleports away at the first sign of trouble, you'll need someone who can one-shot him, and that's not only quite difficult, but also not terribly fun to play.

[Flickerdart]

Anybody know how this works? Like, if Dude A declares an attack, and Dude B casts Celerity to avoid it, can Dude A cast Celerity (or some other immediate action) to mess with whatever Dude B is doing to avoid the attack in the first place? In what order do the actions resolve? What if Dude A starts with an immediate action attack in the first place?
A readied or immediate action always takes place right before the action it's responding to, so in the first example Dude A's Celerity would be the first action to trigger, but in the second it would be Dude B's, because Dude A has wasted his immediate action like a fool.

[A_S]

Mkay, so sounds like winning initiative is the way to go. That way, you can pull off whatever action-economy-breaking cheese you prefer, while limiting them to fewer actions. The best they can do is something like:

-Turn starts, your initiative count.
-You hit them with your Ultimate Mace of You Die Now.
-As an immediate action, they cast Celerity, using the standard action they're granted to cast Twinned Greater Arcane Fusion to combine two castings of Celerity, twice, each of which they use to cast Greater Arcane Fusion to combine blah blah blah...then they use all 1024 standard actions they end up with to hit you with 1024 Twinned Maximized Empowered Searing Energy Admixed Combusts, each of which is combined with a True Strike via Arcane Fusion.
-As an immediate action in response to all of that, you cast Celerity and hit them again.
-They die.

So, basically, what I'd do is focus on combining an unbeatable initiative check with an unavoidable attack that can be delivered as an immediate action. A tall order, but probably doable.

[Randomguy]

Disintegrate. Gust of Wind.

Actually, a wall would block line of effect, not grant a shield bonus. The wizard could disintegrate the wall, though, but making a wizard waste a casting of disintigrate is still somewhat useful. Worth carrying a wall around for, anyway, if you can't spend money on magic items and have a high enough strength score. Also, with an immediate action trigger, it could still block a spell before the wizard notices it/realizes it's purpose. Lastly, the wall gets a save as an attended object, and with good fortitude saves and other saving throw bonuses, it might survive the disintegrate.



So, your suggestion is to try and slow the wizard down instead of killing him? This is a bad suggestion. If you have a clear shot, you want to do as much as you can to incapacitate your enemy, not inconvenience them.

A one hit kill with arrows against a high level wizard is very hard, if it all possible. (Also, anticlimactic) Unless you've got a high enough damage output, (which is hard with archers) you'd need some sort of death effect that allows a save, and there are hundreds of ways to defend against those. Which might still be worth it, actually, if it gets the wizard to blow his Moment of Persience on it. Technically, a disjunction or greater dispel magic on the party after using divinations to find out what buffs they have active and what magic items they have would be ideal. But you're probably right.

You have to admit, though, introducing a character by having him pin a PC to a wall with an attack Yu-Yan archer style while the other arrows aim to deal damage is pretty awesome.



Why would the PCs bother chasing him when he's leaving all this free loot behind?
I forgot how greedy PC's were. But most combat traps aren't worth that much gold to a level 20 PC, and I think the rules say they can't be re-used after they're built. Maybe give them some incentive to run through a trap filled tunnel? Something that even a near epic character would run from, like a kind of ooze that disjoins any magic items that it touches. The traps wouldn't be affected, they're alchemical or mechanical, not magical.



Think about what you're saying. How exactly do you plan to fire an arrow in such a way that it can pull an enormous magnet without being completely off-balance? It's not an improvised weapon, it's just impossible, especially given that you're trying to aim for the character's weapon. What if it hits their body instead? Also, you're an archer, your strength isn't going to be as high as a frontliner's, so unless you let go of your silly rope thing they're just going to pull you towards them and then kill your face.

You're completely right. Somewhat more plausible would be to attach a grappling hook to the wire, and a magnet to the grappling hook. Add a penalty from the magnet weighing the hook off balance, and use called shot rules for targeting a weapon. With some mild optimization of the use rope skill, this would be possible. The DC would probably be in the mid 20's, for 50 feet away + a called shot. But remember, at epic levels people can use escape artist to slip through even walls of force, while at level 1 wizards can manipulate reality. A level 20 non caster violating a couple of laws of physics isn't too much of a stretch.
Alternatively, make a custom magic item that's a cross between a rod of ropes from complete scoundrel and a grasping hook from dungeonscape that can steal enemy equipment from up to 300 feet away.
The downside would be, like you previously mentioned, wasting actions to not deal damage (and possibly sinking skill points into use rope.)



You don't need Genesis for this. You can just stick your body in a Magnificent Mansion instead. That's true. But it would be easier to find and dispel a magic mansion than to find and get to a different plane.



Not how divinations work. A solid lining of lead may stop some of the cone-based ones, but it will also make it impossible to see, and give you lead poisoning.


Lead Lining: In order to thwart the detection of a
magic item it contains, a hidden space can be lined with
a thin sheet of lead. Hard-sided objects can have thin lead
sheets built into their walls, bottoms, and lids. Soft-sided
objects, such as clothing, have threads of lead sewn into
them. Either way, lead lining must be included with a
hidden space when it is created, and cannot be added to
an item later. Lead lining adds about 10% to the weight of
an object in which it is incorporated.
Price: 10 gp.

You can lead line your clothes or armour and weapon scabbards so that magic items you wear (while they're under your clothes/in the weapon scabbards) can't be detected, without lead poisoning. The GM can houserule in lead poisoining if he feels the need for realism, though, but the DC on that shouldn't be that hard to make.

Here's a fun way to inconvenience your enemies without wasting actions: Sleight of hand. Take a -20 penalty to make the check as a free action and to take an unattended object from an enemy. At level 20, with maxed sleight of hand, 5 points in bluff and a masterwork tool (Gloves?) you can have +30 to sleight of hand. As long as you don't have a negative dex modifier, you can make the DC 20 check on at least a 10, so you've got good odds even if you choose to go melee, as long as you get sleight of hand as a class skill. The downside is archer characters don't want to get close enough to use sleight of hand and you've also got to deal with armour check penalties, but it's still doable. You can't steal held weapons, but you can pocket spell component pouches, holy symbols, potions, wands, rods and sheathed weapons. Best of all, unless your PC's make the spot check, they won't know that anything's been taken until they reach to use it.

Be careful when designing the modified vow of poverty feat: The benefit has to be worth both the penalty that it imposes as well as being worth spending a feat to get. For the penalty, I suggest something like losing all spellcasting ability except divinations and abjurations (For which your caster level stays the same as before), as well as losing the ability to activate magic items that mimic spells, except for those from the abjuration, divination, transmutation schools (If you think that's too lenient, ban those schools as well for spells of above 6th level, but I don't recommend it since that will remove access to disjunction). Potions are exempt from this restriction.
This way you can still use magic weapons and armour and utility magic items like bags of holding and flying carpets, as well as anything that boosted AC or ability scores, and rings of feather fall and freedom of movement, but couldn't use any wands, staffs or custom items that mimicked spells not from those three schools, and no circlets of blasting or drums of panic and the like. Things like bag of tricks would still be aloud, since even they they're similar to a spell (in this case summon nature's ally) it doesn't mimic the spell exactly.
I don't know what you could use for the benefit of the feat though. Maybe make the character better at using the spells and magic items he still has access to? Like by shielding him from some divinations (Maybe constant mind blank? If you make the feat scale with level so that you only get constant mind blank at level 17 or up, it'll be fair) and by giving him a bonus to dispel checks (Maybe 1/2 character level) that applies when using magic items as well as spells to dispel magic. You could make a certain amount of ranks in spellcraft a prerequisite, or something.

[TheOasysMaster]

Why does your wizard-killer have to kill them directly?
Give them unlimited wealth, patience and influence in every land.
Create a villain.
Instead of kicking down the door and screaming, "Time to die!", he can manipulate events to get them killed in a more subtle manner.
All that optimization is useless if the NPC can lure the wizard out of his house, and in the meantime has NPC craftsman place a trapdoor with spheres of annihilation underneath his doormat.

EDIT:
Why should the NPC buy one magical sword to kill the PCs, when he can manufacture evidence convincing entire nations to hunt them down and kill them?
Perhaps the NPC can steal some sort of artifact, plant it on one of the NPCs and let events take their course; malignant artifacts corrupt, someone else wants it or a certain decides he's gone one-eyed for too long.
Do the PCs have family members? Those are always fair targets; friends, family, cohorts, followers, contacts and hirelings.
Send a distraction? Convince Grazzt these PCs are a threat, and if they defeat whatever distraction they send(use a tarrasque, always an interesting challenge), stab 'em in the back when they're tired and drained of spells.

[Aegis013]

...
All that optimization is useless if the NPC can lure the wizard out of his house, and in the meantime has NPC craftsman place a trapdoor with spheres of annihilation underneath his doormat.

Clever, unless Overland Flight or Fly are in play, or Anklets of the Cloud Walker, Feathered Wing graft, etc etc... most end-game wizards will have 24/7 flight.

[Flickerdart]

You can lead line your clothes or armour and weapon scabbards so that magic items you wear (while they're under your clothes/in the weapon scabbards) can't be detected, without lead poisoning. The GM can houserule in lead poisoining if he feels the need for realism, though, but the DC on that shouldn't be that hard to make.
Read that again. That allows you to create a cavity inside an object to hide a magic item inside a lead capsule, not make a suit of the stuff. And it still doesn't foil anything that doesn't care about lead, like most of divinations. Contact Other Plane? Doesn't care about that. Foresight? Nope. Discern Location? Nope. Prying Eyes? No. Arcane Sight? Nuh-uh. Scrying? Not a chance. Legend Lore? Not even. Clairaudience, See Invisibility? Nope. So not only does that not work, it doesn't work twice.



Instead of kicking down the door and screaming, "Time to die!", he can manipulate events to get them killed in a more subtle manner.
Someone still has to do the deed, and giving the Wizard free Spheres of Annihilation (minor artifacts, by the way) is the worst way to go about it.

[KicktheCAN]

The Runescarred Berserker from Unapproachable East is a barbarian that can cast antimagic field. If Pathfinder is okay, Step Up is one of the best feats for a martial character to take down a spellcaster, negating their ability to 5-foot-step out of danger.

[A_S]

Why does your wizard-killer have to kill them directly?
Give them unlimited wealth, patience and influence in every land.
Create a villain.
Instead of kicking down the door and screaming, "Time to die!", he can manipulate events to get them killed in a more subtle manner.
All that optimization is useless if the NPC can lure the wizard out of his house, and in the meantime has NPC craftsman place a trapdoor with spheres of annihilation underneath his doormat.

The wizard is flying, and doesn't fall. Also, he can take NI numbers of actions as an immediate action to avoid whatever fate is pressed upon him, and is never flat footed. So as the AMF which has been planted to cancel his Overland Flight spell begins to take effect, he casts Celerity>Greater Teleport and gets out of there (which he can cast in AMF thanks to Initiate of Mystra, which he obviously has).

What you're saying is a good way to run a real campaign with real players who play in reasonable ways, and is the only way to go if you're trying to DM an actual persistent campaign where you're taking things seriously. But if my impression of the kind of one-shot kulosle is running is accurate, it's reached that rather stupid level of optimization at which arcane spellcasters have made themselves mechanically immune to pretty much everything, even things they forgot to plan for, just because they can abuse the order of actions so heavily. The players are actually encouraged to abuse cheese as much as possible, and then the DM is going to try and kill them anyway. So the only recourse for anyone operating within RAW has is to abuse RAW even better.

[Hirax]

Just gonna point out that ranged attacks aren't necessaryily going to be a good option. All a wizard needs is the friendly fire spell to shut down all ranged attacks. Plenty of alternatives to it, too.

[TheOasysMaster]

Clever, unless Overland Flight or Fly are in play, or Anklets of the Cloud Walker, Feathered Wing graft, etc etc... most end-game wizards will have 24/7 flight.

The wizard is flying, and doesn't fall. Also, he can take NI numbers of actions as an immediate action to avoid whatever fate is pressed upon him, and is never flat footed.
The thing is, does the PC actively have those running when they're walking in their front door?
Even if one has 24/7 Fly, they might not Fly 24/7.
Any part of their home where they'll feasibly walk is a target.
Of course, it's not absurd their home won't be protected, but if the PC hasn't thought that far ahead, well, a simple Gather Information Check, and Hide, Listen, Spot, and Move Silently Checks by the NPC or his hirelings will do the job.

If the Players haven't thought of everything, the PCs haven't, and that's something an NPC can exploit.
If you're going to take out a wizard without magic, trickery outside of one-on-one combat is the way to do it.
Overwhelm them with something completely different.



So as the AMF which has been planted to cancel his Overland Flight spell begins to take effect, he casts Celerity>Greater Teleport and gets out of there (which he can cast in AMF thanks to Initiate of Mystra, which he obviously has).
See, that's the first thing you don't do.
AMF is the first sign a wizard's gonna bite the dirt, and that's giving a warning sign.



What you're saying is a good way ... stupid level of optimization at which arcane spellcasters have made themselves mechanically immune to pretty much everything, even things they forgot to plan for, just because they can abuse the order of actions so heavily.
Fair point.
I don't know if this is an arena combat thing or a "Okay, your character has time to prepare, they have no idea what time, what direction... But an attack is coming."



So the only recourse for anyone operating within RAW has is to abuse RAW even better.
That's true.
It might make the campaign less of a wizard vs. non-wizard NPC, but more of a DM's Knowledge(D&D) vs. PC's Knowledge(D&D)

[A_S]

@OP, do you object to the character having caster levels, as long as flavor-wise they don't come off primarily as a mage? Because you can put together some kind of sneaky gish build that could get its initiative check extremely high, do stupidly large amounts of damage on a melee attack, be practically undetectable, and duplicate all the cheesy action-economy hosers that Wizards depend on for their invulnerability.

Then just sneak up to somebody with Darkstalker+Mind Blank+Ridiculous Hide/MS, Sneak Attack them for four bajillion damage, and cast celerity to do it all again in response to their inevitable Immediate Action response. Requires being something of a wizard, but the killing blow can still be the satisfying crunch of a hammer making jello of a skull.

[Flickerdart]

The thing is, does the PC actively have those running when they're walking in their front door?

Yes. Here's a counter-question or two: do you really think any old NPC can just walk up to their front door and plant some traps? Is a wizard ever going to use, or need a front door? The answers are all "no".


Even if one has 24/7 Fly, they might not Fly 24/7.

At CL12, an extended Overland Fly lasts 24 hours. It is one of the first buffs of the day. After that, why would you not fly? Flying is easier.


Any part of their home where they'll feasibly walk is a target.

I see the wizard lives in the middle of a public city or something.



Of course, it's not absurd their home won't be protected, but if the PC hasn't thought that far ahead, well, a simple Gather Information Check, and Hide, Listen, Spot, and Move Silently Checks by the NPC or his hirelings will do the job.

Wizard's house is a Magnificent Mansion that he casts wherever he ends up for the day, which could be on any plane in the multiverse. None of those things will help at all.

[Togo]

Yes. Here's a counter-question or two: do you really think any old NPC can just walk up to their front door and plant some traps? Is a wizard ever going to use, or need a front door? The answers are all "no".

How does this guy get his groceries delivered? Or move his furniture in? You end up doing a lot of your own grunt work if you don't have some kind of minion entranceway.


At CL12, an extended Overland Fly lasts 24 hours. It is one of the first buffs of the day. After that, why would you not fly? Flying is easier.

Because you only have average manuevrability? You can't stop, or turn in place, and will experience difficulty in navigating something as simple as a turn in a corridor.:smalltongue:


Wizard's house is a Magnificent Mansion that he casts wherever he ends up for the day, which could be on any plane in the multiverse. None of those things will help at all.

This is an adventuring wizard, working with a party on an adventure. He needs to spend at least some of his spell resources helping out the party, and there are any number of plot reasons why he might have to actually stand on the ground in a place where it might be reasonably forseeable that he does so.

Like the area immediately outside his magnificent mansion, for example....



Wizard's house is a Magnificent Mansion that he casts wherever he ends up for the day, which could be on any plane in the multiverse. None of those things will help at all.

They'll tell you where he's likely to end up for the day, and thus the location of the mansion. Sounds useful to me.

Just out of curiosity, how are you getting around the cleric requirement of initiate of mystra? I'm sure it's possible, it's just not a dodge I'm familiar with?

Also, what campaign setting is the game in? Makes a difference, particularly when dealing with high level characters.

[Flickerdart]

How does this guy get his groceries delivered? Or move his furniture in? You end up doing a lot of your own grunt work if you don't have some kind of minion entranceway.

Ring of Sustenance and Fabricate.



Because you only have average manuevrability? You can't stop, or turn in place, and will experience difficulty in navigating something as simple as a turn in a corridor.:smalltongue:

If you can't navigate corridors with 45 degree turns, something is wrong.



This is an adventuring wizard, working with a party on an adventure. He needs to spend at least some of his spell resources helping out the party, and there are any number of plot reasons why he might have to actually stand on the ground in a place where it might be reasonably forseeable that he does so.

Yes, but there's no way for a random schmuck to pick the exact place that will happen.



Like the area immediately outside his magnificent mansion, for example....

Which you tracked down how?



They'll tell you where he's likely to end up for the day, and thus the location of the mansion. Sounds useful to me.

They would do no such thing. Gather Information gets you major news and rumours after 2-5 hours, not the precise location of a specific individual at a moment's notice.

[Togo]

Crush (The dragon ability) can be a fun power. Send in a fake attack - a pet dog or similar - to trigger off any annoying contingencies, then move up, crush as a standard action.

[Togo]

Ring of Sustenance and Fabricate.

Your wizard lives a life of magical sustenance and milk crates? Some high life. My characters like fine dining and antique furniture. He doesn't spend all his research time fixing his own plumbing.



If you can't navigate corridors with 45 degree turns, something is wrong.

A 5' wide corridor with a 90degree turn in it is entirely normal. As are doors. Is this wizard really barrelling through every door he sees without stopping because he's too precious to touch the ground?



Yes, but there's no way for a random schmuck to pick the exact place that will happen.

Doesn't need to. You find out the rough area, probably by knowing something about the plot and the adventure, and then have a look around.



Which you tracked down how?

The entrance is only invisible. At 20th level that's no protection at all.



They would do no such thing. Gather Information gets you major news and rumours after 2-5 hours, not the precise location of a specific individual at a moment's notice.

A 20th level mage going to investigate the Temple of Doom is major news, particularly since he's accompanying his other 20th level friends. It's like Brad Pitt going to a restaurant and not expecting anyone to find out about it. Since the party is probably resting for 8 hours, there's plenty of time.

And remember we're talking about a fricking adventure encounter. They're in roughly the right area to find you anyway - it's in the script.

[Hiro Protagonest]

A 5' wide corridor with a 90degree turn in it is entirely normal. As are doors. Is this wizard really barrelling through every door he sees without stopping because he's too precious to touch the ground?

Maybe, MAYBE, they just cast it at the start of the day so they could fly when needed. :smallwink:

Edit: If you're in a dungeon like that at level 12, you're either fighting Tucker's Kobolds or the DM is bad at making adventures.

[Hirax]

Your wizard lives a life of magical sustenance and milk crates? Some high life. My characters like fine dining and antique furniture. He doesn't spend all his research time fixing his own plumbing.



I see you haven't read the description of mage's mansion.

[Togo]

Maybe, MAYBE, they just cast it at the start of the day so they could fly when needed. :smallwink:

That would certainly make more sense than claiming to never touch the ground.


I see you haven't read the description of mage's mansion.

Sure I have, but we were discussing the hypothetical permenant wizard's home with no front door, because 'a mage doesn't need one'. For travelling purposes a mage's mansion is fine, but it's not a lab, you have to pack up your research materials every day, and it has a front door in any case.

I guess you could have a permenant home with a mage's mansion cast every day inside it, but then you're still using a crappy lab with poor plumbing. My mage characters tend to be packrats, so my home ends up more like the house featured in the Nodwick cartoons - full of unsaleable loot from over a hundred adventures where I robbed the place bare because some of the stuff looked cool.

It's kinda of a side issue though, because the scenario given is that we're on an adventure. So we need to assume on the road, needing to stay with a party in order to contribute, and almost certainly not on full spells.

[Hiro Protagonest]

That would certainly make more sense than claiming to never touch the ground.

Well, when on the road, you'd still be flying, since it's easier and safer. Really, you'd only walk in rooms with low ceilings.

[Flickerdart]

Your wizard lives a life of magical sustenance and milk crates? Some high life. My characters like fine dining and antique furniture. He doesn't spend all his research time fixing his own plumbing.

Furniture and food are your ideas of a good time. Hah. My wizards spend their leisure dragon surfing, and they don't need plumbing because they never eat.



A 5' wide corridor with a 90degree turn in it is entirely normal. As are doors. Is this wizard really barrelling through every door he sees without stopping because he's too precious to touch the ground?

Spider Climb, land on the ceiling.



Doesn't need to. You find out the rough area, probably by knowing something about the plot and the adventure, and then have a look around.

So now the NPCs are metagaming, nice.



The entrance is only invisible. At 20th level that's no protection at all.

It can also be anywhere in the multiverse.



A 20th level mage going to investigate the Temple of Doom is major news, particularly since he's accompanying his other 20th level friends. It's like Brad Pitt going to a restaurant and not expecting anyone to find out about it. Since the party is probably resting for 8 hours, there's plenty of time.

All anyone knows is that he intends to go there. You don't know if he went to a magic library to research the temple, or to see his mentor, or to surf on dragons because he needs his alone time. So unless you want to camp out at the Temple of Doom for a few weeks on the off chance he'll show up, that's a stupid idea. And if you do, one of the guardians just ate you.


And remember we're talking about a fricking adventure encounter. They're in roughly the right area to find you anyway - it's in the script.
Again, metagaming.

Basically, your solution hinges on the PCs printing copies of their adventure path at the local Kinko's and handing them out like candy. Which is to say, it's no solution at all.

[Hirax]

That would certainly make more sense than claiming to never touch the ground.



Sure I have, but we were discussing the hypothetical permenant wizard's home with no front door, because 'a mage doesn't need one'. For travelling purposes a mage's mansion is fine, but it's not a lab, you have to pack up your research materials every day, and it has a front door in any case.

I guess you could have a permenant home with a mage's mansion cast every day inside it, but then you're still using a crappy lab with poor plumbing. My mage characters tend to be packrats, so my home ends up more like the house featured in the Nodwick cartoons - full of unsaleable loot from over a hundred adventures where I robbed the place bare because some of the stuff looked cool.

It's kinda of a side issue though, because the scenario given is that we're on an adventure. So we need to assume on the road, needing to stay with a party in order to contribute, and almost certainly not on full spells.

I don't see a problem. Hoard gullet (top pick for spellbook protection anyway) and the unseen servants that the mansion gives you for free can do everything you describe. Every night just open up a mansion, disgorge your lab and spellbooks, and have unseen servants set everything up. I don't see why "...create any floor plan you desire to the limit of the spell’s effect" would preclude plumbing from being there. And why do you keep assuming things it creates are crappy? It's called mage's magnificent mansion for a reason, I would assume. Why would a wizard and his party not sleep in there? What alternative could possibly be better? That's as good a contribution to the party as you could make.

[Togo]

Spider Climb, land on the ceiling.

So you aren't flying all the time then. You do touch ground. What about conversations with people who aren't flying? Copying spells? Investigating clues?

I'm just trying to picture a wizard with a rope tied to his ankle flying round and round in circles. This is just the 'my character never takes his armour off, ever' argument in a new intriguing form.


So now the NPCs are metagaming, nice.

I'm just assuming that a combat encounter as part of an adventure is in some way related to that adventure. Your game may vary.


It can also be anywhere in the multiverse.

That's true, it could. Unless there is some plot related reason why you can't suddenly take the entire party to the elemental plane of fire or whatever, every night. Or the player doesn't want to use up the spell slots.



All anyone knows is that he intends to go there. You don't know if he went to a magic library to research the temple, or to see his mentor, or to surf on dragons because he needs his alone time. So unless you want to camp out at the Temple of Doom for a few weeks on the off chance he'll show up, that's a stupid idea. And if you do, one of the guardians just ate you.

Unless you are one of the guardians. Again, putting scheduling considerations as a reason why an adventure encounter couldn't actually turn up at a particular point is not usually a conversation the players get to have. Rather than assuming the fairly unlikely idea an encounter must be with some ignorant person who has to research the PC's location, why not just assume that this encounter, like so many others, is part of the plot.

[Randomguy]

How many level 13+ Wizards are there running around in this setting? How many whole up in a magnificent mansion 24/7 in a plane somewhere while using astral projection to live there lives and adventure safely? Probably only the PC's, and maybe a couple of archmages. How to find out where this person is, while they're protected from every single possible scrying spell in existence? I think a good gather information check in Sigil, the City of doors, to see if there's a freakish amount of wards blocking access or scrying to a small, otherwise inconspicuous area on a random plane somewhere, would do the trick.

Even if you've got every ward in the book on a place to stop the natives of a plane from getting in, (and the planar effects, which aren't always nice), one of the CR apporpriate random encounters that pass through the area every once in a while will at least notice all the defensive magic and talk about it at a local pub. And there isn't really a way to avoid this, either, considering how many high CR monsters have true seeing constantly active.

[Togo]

I don't see a problem. Hoard gullet (top pick for spellbook protection anyway) and the unseen servants that the mansion gives you for free can do everything you describe. Every night just open up a mansion, disgorge your lab and spellbooks, and have unseen servants set everything up. I don't see why "...create any floor plan you desire to the limit of the spell’s effect" would preclude plumbing from being there. And why do you keep assuming things it creates are crappy? It's called mage's magnificent mansion for a reason, I would assume. Why would a wizard and his party not sleep in there? What alternative could possibly be better? That's as good a contribution to the party as you could make.

You've missed the point. The original discussion was not about staying in a mage's mansion, it was about staying in a house with no front door and surviving through fabricate and a ring of sustenance. Hence crappy furniture, since fabricate uses your own craft skills, and you're unlikely to have more than one at anything decent.

More generally, there are a great many things that characters can do to make themselves safer. Not going on adventures, for example. It's just that in practice, PCs may not actually do so. Obviously a plan involving booby-trapping someone's front door is not going to work if they don't have a front door to booby-trap, just as a land-mine style trap won't get triggered by a mage who happens to be flying. What's questionable is whether it's a bad plan because no (sensible) mage would ever have a front door, or no mage would ever touch the ground at any point.

The point is not whether each of these plans are avoidable by a series of mages of theoretically infinite paranoia. We're dealing with an actual adventure with an actual set of players who will make actual decisions and be on an adventure. Killing a high level mage is very difficult, and we've been asked for possible builds that might stand a chance of doing so. Arguing that a mage can go through life without touching the ground, talking to other people, and so on is a strange way to approach the problem, since it seems farily obvious that in any actual adventure, the chances of the mage we're being asked to kill acting in this way are fairly slim.

I'm getting the strong impression here that by even suggesting that a high level mage might be vulnerable to attack, I'm pushing some emotional buttons. Since the entire thread is predicated on the idea that we need to attack a mage, can't we at least consider the best way to go about it?

[Flickerdart]

Togo, we all know that DM fiat can defeat anything, that's not the point here. What I'm saying is that without many divination spells it is impossible to track down a half-competent wizard quickly enough that you can trap the entire area he's in with spheres of annihilation on the off-chance that he will at one point land on the ground.

[Hirax]

You've missed the point. The original discussion was not about staying in a mage's mansion, it was about staying in a house with no front door and surviving through fabricate and a ring of sustenance. Hence crappy furniture, since fabricate uses your own craft skills, and you're unlikely to have more than one at anything decent.
...
I'm getting the strong impression here that by even suggesting that a high level mage might be vulnerable to attack, I'm pushing some emotional buttons. Since the entire thread is predicated on the idea that we need to attack a mage, can't we at least consider the best way to go about it?

Which has as much do to with the OP as what I brought up. You repeatedly used the words like crappy in responding to living in the mage's mansion, I don't see why you're seem so shocked that people disagree.

[Doorhandle]

On the subject of actually KILLING the wizards once find their homes and manage to greet them with a surprise round, I think a pathfinder Tetori (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/monk/archetypes/paizo---monk-archetypes/tetori) monk might not do a bad job.

Focus on strength and Wis more than Dex and int. Surprise the wizard, and then immediately grapple him, using stunning pin to immobilize him and possibly blind/deafen him as a swift action. Then, break his jaw using the feat f the same name, and start hamming at his strength with the bone-breaker feat. If you are at 18th level and have neck-breaker it's even easier, as you can do 2d6 of damage to the wizard's very meager strength. The Tetori also has class features that stop Teleportation and polymorph as an immediate action, and on top of the difficulties of casting spells while he's grabbing you, mean he has furious impunity with which to constrict him, pin him, suffocate him, mute him, and breaking his bones all simultaneously, and generally ruining his day.

Granted, getting initiative and the surprise round, or being able to survive one, will be the hard part.

Finding the wizard shouldn't be a huge problem from a game perspective if not a realistic one: If the N.P.C is the wizard hunter, he'll have plot-finding on his side, and if he can;t plane shift, he will know someone who can. He's also bring friends, I'd reckon. While if the P.C is a wizard hunter, the wizards will probably come to him, and getting the bastard on his home plane will make up the plot.

[Flickerdart]

Surprise the wizard
lol

and then immediately grapple him
lol

We've already been over how impractical this is.

[Gavinfoxx]

Here are some reasons a wizard using fabricate will have good stuff:

Loresong
Magecraft
Skillful Moment

Pleeenty of stuff that helps him be good at the Fabricating.

[Doorhandle]

So, how would we go about surviving the 2 rounds we don't get to act in, then?

Also


At 9th level, a tetori can spend 1 point from his ki pool to suppress his opponents’ freedom of movement and magical bonuses to Escape Artist or on checks to escape a grapple. At 13th level, this ability also duplicates the effect of dimensional anchor. At 17th level, the tetori’s unarmed strike gains the ghost touch special ability, and an incorporeal creature that he strikes gains the grappled condition (Reflex negates, DC 10 + 1/2 the wrestler’s level + his Wisdom modifier). Inescapable grasp is a swift action and lasts until the beginning of the wrestler’s next turn.

...Granted, it's says nothing about heart of water.

Also, would constuct amour (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/ultimateMagic/magic/buildingAndModifyingConstructs.html) work? it says that any attacks directed at the wearer target the construct first, so would that allow the wearer to use it's magic immunity?

Come to think of it, we probably should have used an awakened golem as a starting point for this...

[A_S]

Surprising a wizard, while a significant project, should be possible. Darkstalker + some source of Mind Blank + heavily optimized Hide/MS is hard to beat, even for a Wizard. I don't think grapple is the way to go after that, though. Better to follow it up with some way of beating his inevitable immediate action response (your own immediate action being the most obvious) and then some reliable kill move.

Might be hard to achieve without any magic, but something like a d2 Crusader with Marshall and maybe some other stuff to buff stealth skills and enough Sorc casting to pull off some Celerity>Arcane Fusion>Celerity cheese seems like it'd have a decent shot.

[Flickerdart]

@doorhandle: That only helps once you've taken hold of the wizard, which is far from given.

@ A_S: How are you beating Dire Tortoise, Moment of Prescience or Foresight?

[A_S]

@ A_S: How are you beating Dire Tortoise, Moment of Prescience or Foresight?

Having your own immediate actions. That's why I was asking about order or resolution of immediate actions earlier in the thread.

Maybe I wasn't clear, though; I don't mean you get a whole surprise round where they don't get to act. Which I now realize is what it sounds like I meant, since "surprise" is a technical term in D&D. You just have to buff up initiative so you get to act first in the surprise round.

[Flickerdart]

Having your own immediate actions won't help you when you're flat-footed, and the Wizard has +30 or more to his Init before feats and stats.

[A_S]

You don't think a character not focused on spellcasting could be build to beat a MoP init check? I haven't built anything for what I was thinking, so I don't really know.

[Hirax]

You don't think a character not focused on spellcasting could be build to beat a MoP init check? I haven't built anything for what I was thinking, so I don't really know.

You could, but you'd need to invest a Pyrrhic amount of resources into it. The wizard isn't sacrificing much in getting its initiative bonus. A non-caster is going to have to use much more precious resources (class levels and feats) to get a competitive initiative modifier, and in doing so will have to compromise in other areas. The list of ways to get substantial initiative bonuses is unfortunately short. Moment of prescience (25), nerveskitter (5), unicorn heart (4), and a hummingbird familiar (4) put together are an easy +38 before dex. The handful of magic items that boost initiative are easily afforded by the warrior and wizard alike, and they don't do much, so the equipment section is probably a draw.

[TheOasysMaster]

A non-caster is going to have to use much more precious resources (class levels and feats) to get a competitive initiative modifier, and in doing so will have to compromise in other areas.
Why does the non-caster need an initiative roll?
Any worthy opponent won't be anywhere near the wizard when 'the hit' takes place.
:smallbiggrin:

If you want to take down an epic-level wizard, you've got to think epic-level, and that means armies, plots and intricate well-woven traps.
And barring the non-caster from using those is hobbling them, giving an even greater advantage to the wizard than his spellcasting.
All the protections in the world are of no use if the NPC manages to convince the mistreated apprentice that betraying his Master's trust is a good idea.
And yes, I KNOW, there are many ways that a wizard could ensure this betrayal doesn't take place, from not taking an apprentice to magic circle of evil around his tower.
But every spell he casts to protect from one direction is another spell he can't cast to protect from another.
Even if the wizard prepares a single list of 24-hour spells maxing out his slots/points, there'll still be a way.
Spells are like armor.
The right weapon in the right hands renders it useless.
For a non-caster, the weapons and the hands wielding them, are simply less-fiery, but can be just as effective.

[Togo]

Which has as much do to with the OP as what I brought up. You repeatedly used the words like crappy in responding to living in the mage's mansion, I don't see why you're seem so shocked that people disagree.

You misunderstand.


You've missed the point. The original discussion was not about staying in a mage's mansion,

[Togo]

Togo, we all know that DM fiat can defeat anything, that's not the point here. What I'm saying is that without many divination spells it is impossible to track down a half-competent wizard

Sure but you don't need fiat. This is an adventure encounter, so he's coming to us, along with the rest of his party.


Having your own immediate actions won't help you when you're flat-footed, and the Wizard has +30 or more to his Init before feats and stats.

Why not just act second? Wildhsape into a blink dog and watch him from afar while in hiding. Send a trained poodle to savage him, triggering any contingencies, then let him cast MoP (or not) to go first. Unless he runs away at that point, then you can just, on your first full action, d-door next to him (free action), change (revert) into a dragon(move action), pin him with a crush attack, and then activate a belt of battle to coup de grace. Not a perfect plan, but it's not like you can't try it again if it doesn't work.

Simply making multiple attempts on life per day will wear down his spells pretty quick. Remember, as an adventuring wizard, he may not have the option of simply going away and coming back tomorrow.

[Togo]

You could, but you'd need to invest a Pyrrhic amount of resources into it. The wizard isn't sacrificing much in getting its initiative bonus.

He's sacrificing an 8th level spell for every encounter, before he can evaluate whether it's a proper threat or not. The chances are high he'll either run out of castings, or not use it in every fight.

[Doorhandle]

Pretty sure celerity still gives him an immediate action after that.

I think our best bet is to get a custom golem, and either awaken it, or send it on a mission to kill the wizard. someone wearing golem Armour might also suffice.
Sure, he could just blast through the floor, but that is what hit-die are for.
I reckon a mithral golem would work best, what with moving and full-attacking.

[kulosle]

So to start off. I'm Mike and David is Kulosle most of the time. We share this account, cause i'm to lazy to make my own. I already have to many passwords to keep track of. We don't read each others threads without permission, so I haven't read the "all of the cheese" thread, but seeing as how I was specifically asked not to read it, I would imagine that he is posting builds there. So yes this character will be against that crazy amount of optimization. For those of you who wish to be amazingly helpful you should have a look, but please don't mention any of the builds. I run this campaign from a mostly surprised stand point. I review the builds last minute so I can't target them. Also I realize that I didn't mention that this build is to be gestalt. I'll edit the OP.

Ground rule for this character. No pathfinder, but 3.0 is fine, although I thought savage species was 3.5. Mostly magic free is a hard term to describe. Things like factotum are fine and encouraged. Having spell like abilities is also great. Having an actual caster level is where i get kinda iffy. If the build has only sleight spell casting ability, like a bard dip without full progression, then i'm okay with it. Basically no full caster level. Yes this character does have infinite wealth and a very powerful artificer contact. Assume the following, the target: is distracted and surprised, is paranoid, has defenses up, at least half of his resources (spells and components etc) consumed/stolen, has strong motivation for adventuring as his actual self.

I like the idea of an awaken golem. Also what is the best way to antimagic/disjunct a caster? I've reworked the PrC mention before, that grants mindsight foiling, so it progresses maneuvers instead. What can be done with this? Would a remake of illithid body tamer work? I've heard of death attack optimization, can that be done to the point where it's a viable option?

I've heard lots about rune scared berserker, but I do not have that book. My google-fu has failed me, does anyone have a link to that class?

For those of you who really want to add caster levels. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=12348364#post12348364)

Note: I'm poor, at best, at making non magical characters. Sorry for all the questions. Thanks for helping.

[Flickerdart]

Why does the non-caster need an initiative roll?
Any worthy opponent won't be anywhere near the wizard when 'the hit' takes place.
:smallbiggrin:

If you want to take down an epic-level wizard, you've got to think epic-level, and that means armies, plots and intricate well-woven traps.
And barring the non-caster from using those is hobbling them, giving an even greater advantage to the wizard than his spellcasting.
All the protections in the world are of no use if the NPC manages to convince the mistreated apprentice that betraying his Master's trust is a good idea.
And yes, I KNOW, there are many ways that a wizard could ensure this betrayal doesn't take place, from not taking an apprentice to magic circle of evil around his tower.
But every spell he casts to protect from one direction is another spell he can't cast to protect from another.
Even if the wizard prepares a single list of 24-hour spells maxing out his slots/points, there'll still be a way.
Spells are like armor.
The right weapon in the right hands renders it useless.
For a non-caster, the weapons and the hands wielding them, are simply less-fiery, but can be just as effective.
The problem with that idea is that someone still has to make the hit. And an apprentice, by definition, is a less-good wizard. Relying on a wizard to defeat a better wizard is stupid forever. Armies? Armies are pointless, because an army can never be as mobile as an individual high-level spellcaster. As for the spells, so far nobody's come up with a way of penetrating the basic couple of spells every wizard should have, so saying "there must be a way" is just pointless optimism.


Sure but you don't need fiat. This is an adventure encounter, so he's coming to us, along with the rest of his party.

Why not just act second? Wildhsape into a blink dog and watch him from afar while in hiding. Send a trained poodle to savage him, triggering any contingencies, then let him cast MoP (or not) to go first. Unless he runs away at that point, then you can just, on your first full action, d-door next to him (free action), change (revert) into a dragon(move action), pin him with a crush attack, and then activate a belt of battle to coup de grace. Not a perfect plan, but it's not like you can't try it again if it doesn't work.

Simply making multiple attempts on life per day will wear down his spells pretty quick. Remember, as an adventuring wizard, he may not have the option of simply going away and coming back tomorrow.
An adventuring encounter needs a reason to be there. "You fight this guy because I said so" is a stupid reason for an encounter, especially if that guy has spent time trapping the place and preparing an ambush.
The wizard's contingencies won't trigger on a poodle, because that's not a threat. Even if they're poorly worded and do pop, he's now got a bunch of buffs up, spends an insignificant action on blowing your poodle up and then when you try to attack him, he uses an immediate action to blow you up, too - because he's still fully buffed. Also, a dimension door ends your turn, so that won't work - and if he has Anticipate Teleport up, you're screwed as well.


He's sacrificing an 8th level spell for every encounter, before he can evaluate whether it's a proper threat or not. The chances are high he'll either run out of castings, or not use it in every fight.
MoP lasts hours/level, so he just casts it ahead of time. Yes, that might mean he needs four of these a day, but that's not that many spells compared to all the ones he's got left.


Pretty sure celerity still gives him an immediate action after that.

I think our best bet is to get a custom golem, and either awaken it, or send it on a mission to kill the wizard. someone wearing golem Armour might also suffice.
Sure, he could just blast through the floor, but that is what hit-die are for.
I reckon a mithral golem would work best, what with moving and full-attacking.
Celerity gives him a standard action, not an immediate. The immediate he has even without the spell.

As for Golems, they're only immune to SR:Yes spells. Many of the best spells are SR:No, including Disjunction, which can be used to basically delete your "golem armour" thing. In order to get real spell immunity you have to go into Epic monster territory, and those are kind of ridiculous.

[Togo]

The wizard's contingencies won't trigger on a poodle, because that's not a threat.

? How does an evocation spell evaluate a threat? Contingencies must be clear-cut, or they simply fail. If it triggers on an attack, it triggers on an attack, be that from a dragon or a thrown milk jug.


Even if they're poorly worded and do pop, he's now got a bunch of buffs up, spends an insignificant action on blowing your poodle up and then when you try to attack him, he uses an immediate action to blow you up, too - because he's still fully buffed.

I don't think you can reliably take out a 20th level master of many forms with a single spell. Feel free to example otherwise, since I'm sure there are some cheesy combos out there.


Also, a dimension door ends your turn, so that won't work

That restriction doesn't apply to blink dogs.


- and if he has Anticipate Teleport up, you're screwed as well.

Yeah, that might work. Well your arrival is delayed. You can just leave again, if the situation is unfavourable.

If teleport is out, you could maybe get a minion to grant you a move, and simply walk up to the wizard instead....

However, it may be better to soften the target up with a few targetted greater dispel magics first. (turn into a sakrith(MM2) and assume supernatural ability (SS))



MoP lasts hours/level, so he just casts it ahead of time. Yes, that might mean he needs four of these a day, but that's not that many spells compared to all the ones he's got left.

It's more than he gets as per the scenario given.

20th level mage gets roughly 7 spells per level, maybe 8 if he's a specialist. Half his resources are gone, so that's 3-4 a level, and only half his spells are on defence, so that's 1-2 a level.

That's why I generally go for tough flexible mage slayers rather than trying to play rocket tag. It's much easier to get the mage to waste a round than it is to win initiative. And the resulting fight is more fun too.

[TheOasysMaster]

The problem with that idea is that someone still has to make the hit. And an apprentice, by definition, is a less-good wizard.
Stab him in his sleep?
Hand him the wrong spell component?
Replace his chamber-pot with a polymorphed balor?
There are all kinds of things that can be done.


Armies? Armies are pointless, because an army can never be as mobile as an individual high-level spellcaster.
See-right there.
You said a high-level spellcaster is more mobile.
You didn't argue the wizard would simply kill the entire army.
That's infeasible. The wizard would just leave.
That's a predictable response.
Predictable responses lead to traps.
Traps make dead wizards.


As for the spells, so far nobody's come up with a way of penetrating the basic couple of spells every wizard should have, so saying "there must be a way" is just pointless optimism.
"What every wizard should have" is not what the PC will choose to create for their wizard.
Sure, the wizard can have 24-overland flight, and fire immunity.
But will the PC prepare that spell as part of their daily defenses?
They can only defend from so much, and the defenses they choose relate to specific responses.
I'm saying that rather than relying on a class or a 'build', the NPC can make use of the D&D game system and conventions of the fantasy setting to pull a victory based on research, time and the sheer will to get the job done.
Yes, a single spell can prevent a lot of damage.
But once the wizard sinks into a routine of daily spell cast, that's something that can be exploited.

Make a spell list. Build a fortress. Hire hirelings, monsters, cast spells.
Recruit followers, make deals, collect items, etc.

At the end of the day, the winner, wizard or no, will be the person who remains unseen, knows more about the other and is simply better at bringing their plan to bear.

If the OP needs a build, create a character like Lex Luthor.
Limitless power and wealth at his fingertips, but the heroes can barely touch him because they can't prove what he's actually doing without incurring the wrath of whatever Contingencies that he's got, as well as any the world may have.
Sure, the wizard can Scry and die, by Teleporting to his house and Disentegrating him, but there, that's predictable.
If the NPC is genre-savvy, he'll have a stooge.
Or maybe he'll play on alignment-if the NPC dies, a 1000 innocents die as well all over the world.
There are limitless ways to protect and act.

Magic is just an extra, if powerful and useful piece on the board.
But it's the strategies that the player's employ that assure victory.
And if the NPCs idea of victory is stabbing you in the heart, then moving your pieces to get a checkmate, that's a win.

[olentu]

Stab him in his sleep?
Hand him the wrong spell component?
Replace his chamber-pot with a polymorphed balor?
There are all kinds of things that can be done.


See-right there.
You said a high-level spellcaster is more mobile.
You didn't argue the wizard would simply kill the entire army.
That's infeasible. The wizard would just leave.
That's a predictable response.
Predictable responses lead to traps.
Traps make dead wizards.


"What every wizard should have" is not what the PC will choose to create for their wizard.
Sure, the wizard can have 24-overland flight, and fire immunity.
But will the PC prepare that spell as part of their daily defenses?
They can only defend from so much, and the defenses they choose relate to specific responses.
I'm saying that rather than relying on a class or a 'build', the NPC can make use of the D&D game system and conventions of the fantasy setting to pull a victory based on research, time and the sheer will to get the job done.
Yes, a single spell can prevent a lot of damage.
But once the wizard sinks into a routine of daily spell cast, that's something that can be exploited.

Make a spell list. Build a fortress. Hire hirelings, monsters, cast spells.
Recruit followers, make deals, collect items, etc.

At the end of the day, the winner, wizard or no, will be the person who remains unseen, knows more about the other and is simply better at bringing their plan to bear.

If the OP needs a build, create a character like Lex Luthor.
Limitless power and wealth at his fingertips, but the heroes can barely touch him because they can't prove what he's actually doing without incurring the wrath of whatever Contingencies that he's got, as well as any the world may have.
Sure, the wizard can Scry and die, by Teleporting to his house and Disentegrating him, but there, that's predictable.
If the NPC is genre-savvy, he'll have a stooge.
Or maybe he'll play on alignment-if the NPC dies, a 1000 innocents die as well all over the world.
There are limitless ways to protect and act.

Magic is just an extra, if powerful and useful piece on the board.
But it's the strategies that the player's employ that assure victory.
And if the NPCs idea of victory is stabbing you in the heart, then moving your pieces to get a checkmate, that's a win.

You know it might help if you say actually went into detail about how you hope to accomplish your plans.

[TheOasysMaster]

You know it might help if you say actually went into detail about how you hope to accomplish your plans.
See, it doesn't work that way.
I'd need a wizard to kill.
I'd need the wizard's stats, and everything about him to be written down, from the spell he casts in the morning to the kind of flowers he's got in his garden.
If he even has a garden.
I'd need the PC to determine what his favourite drink is or whether the wizard prefers opera to fine art.
From there, the NPC makes a plan.

Having a plan before having a target is like aiming before the bullseye is setup.

I can't say, "I'll just do this."
Because then the wizard-supporter will just say, "And I'll just do this!"
That leads to circles.
No.
Fill out a spellbook, roll abilities, assign skill points and purchase items.
The wizard's got a lot of spells, but he doesn't have all of them and he can't use all of them.

[olentu]

See, it doesn't work that way.
I'd need a wizard to kill.
I'd need the wizard's stats, and everything about him to be written down, from the spell he casts in the morning to the kind of flowers he's got in his garden.
If he even has a garden.
I'd need the PC to determine what his favourite drink is or whether the wizard prefers opera to fine art.
From there, the NPC makes a plan.

Having a plan before having a target is like aiming before the bullseye is setup.

I can't say, "I'll just do this."
Because then the wizard-supporter will just say, "And I'll just do this!"
That leads to circles.
No.
Fill out a spellbook, roll abilities, assign skill points and purchase items.
The wizard's got a lot of spells, but he doesn't have all of them and he can't use all of them.

I believe the request was for a character that can kill more than one person. Actually it sounds like the character needs to kill up to 8 people from the 4 backup characters mentioned in the opening post. So first off I can not necessarily give you the relevant stats as I am not a player in the game. In fact from a later post it seems that the builds of the characters may not even be known until after the NPC is built. Second I am probably not going to roll up 8 possibly completely different high OP level 20 characters. Maybe 1 but probably not 8.

And even if I was your NPC should not need to already have complete knowledge of the wizard(s) in question for absolutely no reason before hand. You see that is why I said you are leaving out steps. Say for example how did the NPC gain intimate knowledge of absolutely everything that the wizard has ever done, is doing, and will ever do. If the NPC can not get the knowledge necessary to even start formulating a plan well then the build has failed.

[TheOasysMaster]

So first off I can not necessarily give you the relevant stats as I am not a player in the game.
Neither am I.
I was explaining why I can't say what my NPC is going to do.

The NPC is reacting to the PC.
Not the other way around.


Second I am probably not going to roll up 8 possibly completely different high OP level 20 characters. Maybe 1 but probably not 8.
lol me neither


And even if I was your NPC should not need to already have complete knowledge of the wizard(s) in question for absolutely no reason before hand.
Not the NPC, me, the Dungeon Master.
The DM would need to know everything about the PC, so in the case of putting a trap door under the wizard's doormat, the wizard would need to have some sort of flight spell cast, a magic item, and in active use to counter, and this would all be found in stats.
Not freely countered in hypotheticals.
Because remember, only two rings-the wizard can have a ring of feather falling or prepare the spell.
So, that's one ring slot or one spell slot.
Check, that's one less Fireball with wizard can cast or ring of three wishes he leaves at home.


Say for example how did the NPC gain intimate knowledge of absolutely everything that the wizard has ever done, is doing, and will ever do. If the NPC can not get the knowledge necessary to even start formulating a plan well then the build has failed.
Assuming the NPC is 20th level...
They use RAW to put ranks in Gather Information, Bluff, Diplomacy, Appraise, Disguise, etc.
Skill monkey, with emphasis on Gather Information.

A 20th-level character has history; with between 140 to 240 adventures under their belt by the time they reach the big two-oh.
They're famous and well-known.
They've saved people, killed people, made friends and enemies.
And purchased items, scrolls and traded spellbooks.
And here's where there's a good start.
Assuming RAW and WBL, the PC will have have a certain amount of gold to purchase items as well as extra spells or scrolls.
Unless they're paying an extra cost as a bribe for 'keep your mouth shut' on every item since 1st level, there are twenty-levels of purchases and back story for the NPC to exploit.
There are enemies the NPC can recruit and friends and family the NPC can take hostage, on top of getting a general understanding of what items the wizard may have.
AND, even if the wizard makes the items himself, Gather Information can still reveal where he got the materials to pay for the magical laboratory, the components, etc.
Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaand, even if the wizard uses spells and slots to erase the memories or threaten into silence every background character who's ever met them, those are all spell slots and spellbook pages and gold and potential allies the wizard can no longer use on Fireballs, another layer of stone for his house or informants.

That's where I'd start.
NPC Gathers Information.
Hires Sages, spies and the like to get a profile.
From there, he divises a plan based on what he learns.
I'm also assuming that the NPC has the same WBL, but minimally uses it on items and the like.
Instead, NPC uses Profession, Appraise and business ventures to generate limitless wealth and prestige, making himself a public figure, but working to kill the NPC through a face.



I think a real-life example of this would be US Presidents.
They have the wealth of one of the most powerful nations at their back.
That nations armies, healthcare, food, infrastructure...
Security guards.
But all it takes is one man(or two) with guns, and the most powerful man on earth isn't so powerful.
Now, I know a President isn't a wizard with the powers to change reality and a madman with a gun isn't exactly a fantasy version of Lex Luthor bent on murder.
But the scales are the same.
It's all about who's got the better plan and is more informed.

[olentu]

Neither am I.
I was explaining why I can't say what my NPC is going to do.

The NPC is reacting to the PC.
Not the other way around.


lol me neither


Not the NPC, me, the Dungeon Master.
The DM would need to know everything about the PC, so in the case of putting a trap door under the wizard's doormat, the wizard would need to have some sort of flight spell cast, a magic item, and in active use to counter, and this would all be found in stats.
Not freely countered in hypotheticals.
Because remember, only two rings-the wizard can have a ring of feather falling or prepare the spell.
So, that's one ring slot or one spell slot.
Check, that's one less Fireball with wizard can cast or ring of three wishes he leaves at home.


Assuming the NPC is 20th level...
They use RAW to put ranks in Gather Information, Bluff, Diplomacy, Appraise, Disguise, etc.
Skill monkey, with emphasis on Gather Information.

A 20th-level character has history; with between 140 to 240 adventures under their belt by the time they reach the big two-oh.
They're famous and well-known.
They've saved people, killed people, made friends and enemies.
And purchased items, scrolls and traded spellbooks.
And here's where there's a good start.
Assuming RAW and WBL, the PC will have have a certain amount of gold to purchase items as well as extra spells or scrolls.
Unless they're paying an extra cost as a bribe for 'keep your mouth shut' on every item since 1st level, there are twenty-levels of purchases and back story for the NPC to exploit.
There are enemies the NPC can recruit and friends and family the NPC can take hostage, on top of getting a general understanding of what items the wizard may have.
AND, even if the wizard makes the items himself, Gather Information can still reveal where he got the materials to pay for the magical laboratory, the components, etc.
Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaand, even if the wizard uses spells and slots to erase the memories or threaten into silence every background character who's ever met them, those are all spell slots and spellbook pages and gold and potential allies the wizard can no longer use on Fireballs, another layer of stone for his house or informants.

That's where I'd start.
NPC Gathers Information.
Hires Sages, spies and the like to get a profile.
From there, he divises a plan based on what he learns.
I'm also assuming that the NPC has the same WBL, but minimally uses it on items and the like.
Instead, NPC uses Profession, Appraise and business ventures to generate limitless wealth and prestige, making himself a public figure, but working to kill the NPC through a face.



I think a real-life example of this would be US Presidents.
They have the wealth of one of the most powerful nations at their back.
That nations armies, healthcare, food, infrastructure...
Security guards.
But all it takes is one man(or two) with guns, and the most powerful man on earth isn't so powerful.
Now, I know a President isn't a wizard with the powers to change reality and a madman with a gun isn't exactly a fantasy version of Lex Luthor bent on murder.
But the scales are the same.
It's all about who's got the better plan and is more informed.

Ah now we are actually getting a bit somewhere. Good job with providing at the least a few more details. Well that was all I was asking for so I am satisfied on that account.


Though I would say your analogy is flawed since the wizard is assumed to be paranoid. The president is a very public person who does not generally run around with high tech weapons and armor killing people (well unless it is that one game). a paranoid adventuring wizard is more like the latter but in obscure locations and gaining valuable treasure.

[TheOasysMaster]

Though I would say your analogy is flawed since the wizard is assumed to be paranoid. The president is a very public person who does not generally run around with high tech weapons and armor killing people (well unless it is that one game). a paranoid adventuring wizard is more like the latter but in obscure locations and gaining valuable treasure.
I know the president and a paranoid wizard are a little different, but when considering raw power, they're quite similar in their respective worlds.
By dint of political and magical power, they're 'untouchable' until someone decides they really really really want to prove otherwise.

[Togo]

Though I would say your analogy is flawed since the wizard is assumed to be paranoid. The president is a very public person who does not generally run around with high tech weapons and armor killing people (well unless it is that one game). a paranoid adventuring wizard is more like the latter but in obscure locations and gaining valuable treasure.

The wizard doesn't necessarily get to choose how obscure the locations are. That's very much a feature of the campaign he's in. 20th level characters often deal with fairly major stuff - planar adventures, national conquests, the end of the world, and so on. You only gain levels through exposure to risk.

[olentu]

I know the president and a paranoid wizard are a little different, but when considering raw power, they're quite similar in their respective worlds.
By dint of political and magical power, they're 'untouchable' until someone decides they really really really want to prove otherwise.

Well I suppose if you are only making the base analogy of the wizard being a powerful person and leaving out all the other things that come with being the president that an adventurer can ignore if they want to then yes the wizard is like the president. But if that is the case then you could just as easily replace the president with numerous other people that fit the bill much better since they do not have to run a country, make speeches, live in a safe house with a known location, etc.

So sure it is ok if you ignore all the parts that make the president vastly more vulnerable and less powerful then a paranoid adventuring wizard but that rather means ignoring a lot of stuff.


The wizard doesn't necessarily get to choose how obscure the locations are. That's very much a feature of the campaign he's in. 20th level characters often deal with fairly major stuff - planar adventures, national conquests, the end of the world, and so on. You only gain levels through exposure to risk.

While it is true that the party does not easily get to choose their locations in the case of an end of all creation level plot or something equally inevitably deadly to them with one and only one way to stop it. Otherwise technically they can leave if they want, one generally does not to avoid derailing the campaign but that is a metagame concern and not applicable to an analogy regarding completely in game power.

[TheOasysMaster]

So sure it is ok if you ignore all the parts that make the president vastly more vulnerable and less powerful then a paranoid adventuring wizard but that rather means ignoring a lot of stuff.
It was a general analogy.
If you have a better one, please, go ahead.
:smallannoyed:

[olentu]

It was a general analogy.
If you have a better one, please, go ahead.
:smallannoyed:

Say a hobo with superpowers. Although that basically describes most adventurers so probably add on paranoid as well

[Togo]

While it is true that the party does not easily get to choose their locations in the case of an end of all creation level plot or something equally inevitably deadly to them with one and only one way to stop it. Otherwise technically they can leave if they want, one generally does not to avoid derailing the campaign but that is a metagame concern and not applicable to an analogy regarding completely in game power.

Of course it's applicable. The one indisputable fact about typical 20th level adventurers is that they are the kind of people of would go on enough adventures to reach 20th level. We need not design adventures, or adventure encounters, for people who do not turn up to adventures.

[olentu]

Of course it's applicable. The one indisputable fact about typical 20th level adventurers is that they are the kind of people of would go on enough adventures to reach 20th level. We need not design adventures, or adventure encounters, for people who do not turn up to adventures.

Well ok I will admit that if you restrict the analogy to only those situations where the DM forces the PCs out of secrecy because they want to then well the analogy still does not hold since the president chose, presumably without being forced by a controlling player, to enter into said situation. So bringing metagame concerns into consideration makes the analogy less viable unless you believe that presidents are controlled by entities outside this reality in some sort of a game. It might be correct but is not something that I would consider as an obvious assumption.

[Togo]

Well ok I will admit that if you restrict the analogy to only those situations where the DM forces the PCs out of secrecy because they want to then well the analogy still does not hold since the president chose, presumably without being forced by a controlling player, to enter into said situation. So bringing metagame concerns into consideration makes the analogy less viable unless you believe that presidents are controlled by entities outside this reality in some sort of a game. It might be correct but is not something that I would consider as an obvious assumption.

No, but it's a reason to regard said wizard as a public and famous figure like an ex-president, rather than a hobo with superpowers. 20th level characters are famous and public for the same reason that ex-presidents are - because becoming so is a pre-condition of them being who they are.

[olentu]

No, but it's a reason to regard said wizard as a public and famous figure like an ex-president, rather than a hobo with superpowers. 20th level characters are famous and public for the same reason that ex-presidents are - because becoming so is a pre-condition of them being who they are.

The wizard is even less like the president and more like a hobo with superpowers that does things because the squid fish from outside the universe are controlling his brain. The multiple brain controlling entities from outside reality fits more with a crazy hobo with superpowers and less with the president.

And remember this is only those level 20 characters that are forced to be public. There have been numerous level 20 or higher characters that have been perhaps famous but not in any way public.

[Coidzor]

All the protections in the world are of no use if the NPC manages to convince the mistreated apprentice that betraying his Master's trust is a good idea.

What mistreated apprentice? :smallconfused: This is a paranoid PC wizard we're talking about here. They never have those.

[The Gilded Duke]

I think two hunters would be better then one for this exercise.

The Sniper:
Elf Rogue or other Sneak Attacker with
Craven
Zen Archer
Many Shot
Greater Many Shot
Spot as high as possible
Other Archery buffs to taste

In your bow, put a wand chamber with a wand of Sniper's Shot, to let you sneak attack at any range.

Rough run down on spot bonuses:
23 Ranks, +13 Wisdom (36 Wisdom), +3 Skill Focus, +10 Competence (Third Eye of Aware), +9 Enhancement (Crystal Mask of Insightful Detection), +2 Circumstance (MW Tool), +2 Racial

That gives you a +62 on spot, letting you see people 620 feet or more away. If you beat the spot dc by 20 or more you can pinpoint the location of an invisible character.

Start out 420 feet away, start firing on the party, unless they can hit DC 42 spot checks they will not be able to see you so each arrow shot will be a sneak attack with craven bonuses. You probably will not be able to take down the wizard, but this will at the very least be able to distract them for the blender.

The Blender:
Human Swordsage 2 / Warblade / Bloodstorm Blade
Feats:
Able Learner (to max hide and move silently)
Darkstalker
Boomerang Daze
Power Attack
Improved Sunder

Equipment:
Githyanki Silver Sword with Binding, Aptitude Weapon etc
Continuous Collar of Umbral Metamorphosis
Belt of Battle
Boots of Speed
All equipment treated with Magic Aura prior to battle

The Blender sneaks into the center of the group while they are distracted by the Sniper. His Silver Sword counts as a boomerang for the purpose of boomerang daze. If the party is using astral projection, he attempts to Sunder all of their silver cords, effectively killing them. If not, he uses bladestorm to attack all of the party, their familiars, their animal companions and any hirelings with his Silver Sword. If they are hit, all of them need to make a fort save vs daze. Daze is one of the hardest effects to remove or be immune to in the game. With the collar he hides in plain sight. Swordsage teleports should help throw off any attempted retaliation.

While there are some weaknesses, the combo should work against many groups, and helps defeat the whole astral projection strategy.

[Gavinfoxx]

Isn't there a way for weapons to dispel magic on hits? Characters will DEFINITELY need something like that... Dispelling, Greater Dispelling, some psionic stuff, spellstoring items, anything?

[TheOasysMaster]

What mistreated apprentice? This is a paranoid PC wizard we're talking about here. They never have those.
You have completely missed the point.

No class, no prestige class and no 'build', official or homebrew, has any advantage over a well-prepared wizard-it is a character that brings about a wizard's defeat, with or without spellcasting ability, because they manage to use information, resources and abilities in a manner that is better than said wizard.

[Togo]

If you're going with an archer build, use seeker, bloodseeker and ghost touch enchancements. One allows you to ignore cover, the other concealment, and between them the arrow will find it's way around obstacles to hit it's target. Combined with ghost touch, this should allow the arrows to go through solid objects, allowing you to avoid solid fog and similar by taking a route through the ground.

Rather than an elf, use a pixie firing sleep arrows. The mage will almost certainly make his save, if not be immune, but on the off chance he isn't, 8 or so saves a round has the potential to really spoil his day. This also gives you greater invis at will, and an ambusher who does not sleep.

For increasing spot - a good tactic - I'd recommend raptor's sight, a first level ranger spell. It's worth noting that all competance bonuses stack, so any spell that grants one stacks with the others. If you're going with Master of Many Forms, then Hawk's vision is surprisingly good - +8 to spot, halves range increments, can't be dispelled.

For tag team you may also want to consider the Sakrith from Fiend Foilio. The Spelleater gets greater dispel at will, the Thrall gets an extra move action a round and antimagic shell, and they're designed to kill spellcasters.

But the biggest point is situational. You need to set things up so that the PCs can't just leave. Either they're guarding something, or they're trying to catch a moment when the stars are right, or some other event that will going on at this location, and which they'll miss if they leave to rest and heal.

Then it's a question of whether you want a climatic fight, or a war of attrition. Attackers that attack once, triggering contingencies and buffs, and then simply leave for an hour or so before returning, play to the weaknesses of a character that relies on a limited number of time-limited effects to reach maximum cheesitude. This allows you to drain spells and contingent effects, but it may be less fun as an encounter.

[kulosle]

PLOT: the characters are all a member of a guild that tried to take over the material plane. They failed and now are being hunted to extinction. There are only 20 surviving members, each of the 5 characters of a party of 4. They start out as just the four of them and they have to find their other characters. If they're lucky, they wont be but this is the thought the characters have, they can gather all of them and stand strong against the world. There will only be 4 characters at a time in the party. The group will be pressed for time and probably unable to sleep outside of a rope trick room that they will probably have to teleport out of, if they know whats good for them.

This character will hit a caster hard when he is weak and then run for it. He will do this multiple times if he survives. Whats the best teleporting item? he'd need that to get away. So far I like sniper. There just isn't enough ways to optimize death attack. He'll sneak up while their in combat and ready an action. What should the conditions of his readied action be? When the caster comes out of shapechange sounds like a good idea (assuming he knows their in a fight against someone who could dispel it, which he would), or when he cast contingency. These sound like the best options, any other ideas?

[TheOasysMaster]

The group will be pressed for time and probably unable to sleep outside of a rope trick room that they will probably have to teleport out of, if they know whats good for them.
Two questions: Why? And how? Outside of DM's Fiat, how are you going to make sure of this?


This character will hit a caster hard when he is weak and then run for it.
Same questions. How will he make the caster weak, be able to hit them and be able to run away?


These sound like the best options, any other ideas?
Your character won't last the first encounter, and most certainly not a second round, if he's sending himself to do this job.


Whats the best teleporting item?
Just make one.
Use RAW to make a ring of quickened teleportation or something. It's possible, the character just has to pay for it.


He'll sneak up while their in combat and ready an action.
Same two questions of why and how...
How will the casters be in combat?
What's to stop them from simply leaving?
How will the character know, find and be able to enter the combat?
What's stopping a random combatant from squishing him as he's sneaking about the fight?

[Rubik]

What you do is you have the assassin unleash all of the elder evils on The Outlands simultaneously.

If they manage to destroy the center of The Great Wheel, all characters in the multiverse will die (or worse), including the assassin's targets.

Not sure anything else is going to cut it for a mundane build.

[kulosle]

This is a high pressured game. Time is of the essense

This character will be well informed by the lex luther character who is a wizard who is also interested in slaying other spellcasters. This character plans to betray lex luther in the end but finds him useful for now.

Also this character is primarily to embarrass the party for dying to such a character. If he dies, then he dies, but I know who ever he ends up killing will flip his lid.