Character build help: Con-based Monkbarian

[Morph Bark]

In our campaigns it is pretty standard fare to play LA+1 races or with an LA+1 template for free (it basically counts as LA+0). My next character so far is a Dragonborn Arctic Mongrelfolk, so I am looking for LA+1 templates that give major boosts to Con, preferably +6 or more. Lolth-Touched is sadly out due to her being Chaotic Good.

EDIT: Changed the thread title to expand the topic of discussion. The character is to be Con-based. The ability score distribution so far is: Str 15, Dex 12, Con 16, Int 10, Wis 11, Cha 9. This is prior to racial adjustments. I want to make her a Monk/Barbarian, utilizing a mix of Pounce and breath weapons. I'm also going for Pious Templar 1 due to Mettle, and Monk 2 gives me evasion, with Steadfast Determination taking Wis off Will saves and basing them off Con instead.

[Aegis013]

I know of a good one that gives +2 con... (Feral Creature, savage species)
I don't know any good +1 LA templates with better con mod than that, though.

[Shadowknight12]

Was Mineral Warrior +1 LA?

[The-Mage-King]

Was Mineral Warrior +1 LA?

Yes.

Yes, it is. (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20031003e)

...


Only +4 Con, though.

[FMArthur]

With that much constitution already, you will see significantly greater returns out of the sweet damage reduction 8/adamantine from Mineral Warrior (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20031003e) than more constitution. Well, it also adds 4 constitution as well. Feral for the fast healing would follow naturally if you wanted another.

Also, Arctic is not a template at all. It is just a category of races which are listed under it. Even if you did manage to finagle it in as a template, all you would get without being one of those listed races is the Cold Endurance racial trait that is declared beforehand to be their 'general' trait. Everything after that is specifics for individual races.

[Urpriest]

With that much constitution already, you will see significantly greater returns out of the sweet damage reduction 8/adamantine from Mineral Warrior (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20031003e) than more constitution. Well, it also adds 4 constitution as well. Feral for the fast healing would follow naturally if you wanted another.

Also, Arctic is not a template at all. It is just a category of races which are listed under it. Even if you did manage to finagle it in as a template, all you would get without being one of those listed races is the Cold Endurance racial trait that is declared beforehand to be their 'general' trait. Everything after that is specifics for individual races.

Arctic was published as a template in Dragon, IIRC.

[Morph Bark]

With that much constitution already, you will see significantly greater returns out of the sweet damage reduction 8/adamantine from Mineral Warrior (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20031003e) than more constitution. Well, it also adds 4 constitution as well. Feral for the fast healing would follow naturally if you wanted another.

Also, Arctic is not a template at all. It is just a category of races which are listed under it. Even if you did manage to finagle it in as a template, all you would get without being one of those listed races is the Cold Endurance racial trait that is declared beforehand to be their 'general' trait. Everything after that is specifics for individual races.

As Ur-Priest referred to, Arctic is also a template, LA+0, published in Dragon magazine #304, alongside Magic-Blooded and other similar templates.

I am considering Mineral Warrior, but will likely need to change Mongrelfolk to something else then, as the additional -2 Int will make it so I have too few skill points left to still get into my desired PrCs.

The character is going to be a Monk/Barbarian/Warblade/Pious Templar/somethingsomething (either Squire of Legend or Champion of Gwynharwyf, with the Dragonborn template giving a breath weapon).

[Morph Bark]

Changed the thread title to reflect the change/expansion in topic.

Severely considering changing Mongrelfolk to Human and taking Mineral Warrior, since it is acquired through a ritual and can be done after Dragonborn. One big problem I am now faced with is that I don't have a Dex bonus to AC, nor a Wis bonus to AC. If I don't go into Fist of the Forest, I can wear armour, but with FotF I can get a higher AC bonus thanks to high Con, even more if I rage (I won't take Whirling Frenzy since it isn't necessary thanks to Flurry of Blows). I guess that means my AC will suck pretty bad.

If I go into Champion of Gwynharwyf I get some nice stuff for rage, including prepped divine casting, which means Sanctified spells as well. Problem is that if I want that, I will need to switch Endurance and Steadfast Determination to CoG's entry feats (Knight of Stars and Righteous Fury, IIRC) or ditch either FotF or Pious Templar.

[Rubik]

Human dragonborn lose their skills and feats.

Try warforged. They keep everything but the slam and the armor, and can get both back with feats if they want.

[Morph Bark]

Human dragonborn lose their skills and feats.

Try warforged. They keep everything but the slam and the armor, and can get both back with feats if they want.

Drat, you're right.

Warforged doesn't really work for my character concept and couldn't have the Arctic template (fluff-wise) either.

[Rubik]

Drat, you're right.

Warforged doesn't really work for my character concept and couldn't have the Arctic template (fluff-wise) either.Fluff is what you make of it. Even warforged can be fluffed.

[Morph Bark]

Fluff is what you make of it. Even warforged can be fluffed.

True, but even then they don't work with my character concept. There is also the problem that they are not allowed in the current campaign.

[Rubik]

True, but even then they don't work with my character concept. There is also the problem that they are not allowed in the current campaign.The latter might just prove a bit of an issue, yes.

What about dwarves? Another race with +2 Con, and they work well with the rest of it.

Are there any +2 Con dwarves with 30' movement rates?

[Lord Ruby34]

You could try a dwarf of some kind as the base race, most of them get a Con bonus and I remember some nice Dwarf based PRC that had to deal with Con.

[Morph Bark]

What about dwarves? Another race with +2 Con, and they work well with the rest of it.

Are there any +2 Con dwarves with 30' movement rates?

You could try a dwarf of some kind as the base race, most of them get a Con bonus and I remember some nice Dwarf based PRC that had to deal with Con.

After seeing the Deepwarden in races of stone giving Con to AC in place of Dex at level 2, I indeed tried to find a Dwarf with base movement speed of 30 ft and just use that in place of Mongrelfolk. Nothing so far though.

Though if I switch over to Deepwarden, then I will likely ditch FotF altogether, as well as Monk and just take Rogue 2 or find another way to get Evasion at low level. I will need to take up a weapon rather than focus on Unarmed Strike though, which I would have preferred to not do. It's a shame Swordsages don't get Evasion, that would have been perfect.

[Morph Bark]

Came across something awesome: Goliath Rogue substitution level gives Mettle and +4 Fort in place of Evasion. Taking that, ditching Pious Templar and Warblade. Goliaths are AWESOME Dragonborns and this makes them even better. Plus, now I can also take Mountain Rage as well.

So:


Mineral Warrior Dragonborn Arctic Goliath
Goliath Wilderness Feat Rogue 2/Chaos Monk of the Overpowering Way 2/Lion Totem Goliath Barbarian 2/Fist of the Forest 2

Mettle, Evasion, Improved Uncanny Dodge and uber high Con.


Now I have a new question though. In my searching I came across a feat or class ability of some kind that said it allowed you to still distinguish friend from foe during rage. I can't for the life of me find where or what it was again though. Anyone know of such things? And would they allow me, if I took Frenzied Berzerker, to frenzy without slaughtering my allies? I think my Will save is high enough to make sure I won't involuntarily Frenzy that much.

[Little Brother]

Be a Feral Dragonborn Arctic Dwarf. Go Chaos Monk/Barbarian/Deepwarden/Fist of the Forest. +8 con or so, with all the templates you can add, and you'll get 2Con+Wis to AC.

[The Underlord]

Assuming mongerlfolks arent huamiod(I think thats the prerequisete), you could go into the stoneblesssed PrC to count as a dwarf to then enter deepwarden.

[Urpriest]

You're thinking of Righteous Wrath (BoED). And whether it applies or not to Frenzy is somewhat contentious.

[Morph Bark]

Be a Feral Dragonborn Arctic Dwarf. Go Chaos Monk/Barbarian/Deepwarden/Fist of the Forest. +8 con or so, with all the templates you can add, and you'll get 2Con+Wis to AC.

Wisdom bonus, sadly, is +0. Not sure if Feral is allowed, the heavy hit to Int wears on my skill points.


Assuming mongerlfolks arent huamiod(I think thats the prerequisete), you could go into the stoneblesssed PrC to count as a dwarf to then enter deepwarden.

Mongrelfolk are humanoid. I think they can enter Stoneblessed though, but that would really cut into my levels. :smallfrown:


You're thinking of Righteous Wrath (BoED). And whether it applies or not to Frenzy is somewhat contentious.

I see. Yeah, reading it, I suppose it might be wobbly.

Hmmm... if I take the Knockback feat and take some Dungeoncrasher Fighter levels, I could be very mean. Are there feats that allow you to move along with an enemy when it moves, or it is moved by Knockback? Sadly, you don't move along with the target when you use Knockback, otherwise Dungeoncrasher Fighter would be totally killer...

[Cog]

As Ur-Priest referred to, Arctic is also a template, LA+0, published in Dragon magazine #304, alongside Magic-Blooded and other similar templates.
The introductory text restricts those templates to PHB races only. Human and standard Dwarf is fine, but the other suggestions are out.

[Randomguy]

Now I have a new question though. In my searching I came across a feat or class ability of some kind that said it allowed you to still distinguish friend from foe during rage. I can't for the life of me find where or what it was again though. Anyone know of such things? And would they allow me, if I took Frenzied Berzerker, to frenzy without slaughtering my allies? I think my Will save is high enough to make sure I won't involuntarily Frenzy that much.

You could buy a party member a wand of calm emotions.

[Little Brother]

Dwarf

Ranger 3/Monk 2/Fist of the Forest 1/Deepwarden 2/Kensai 5

or

Warblade X/Fist of the Forest 1/Deepwarden 2

Ranger provides the Endurance feat and Skill pre-reqs for Fist of the Forest and Deepwarden. But you can swap it out for Dwarf Paragon or Factotum or various other base classes, as long as you can cobble together what you need.

Monk provides Evasion and Improved Unarmed Strike (pre-req for FotF). But you can swap this out as well.

Fist of the Forest grants you your Con to AC while unarmored.

Deepwarden grants you your Con to AC (replacing Dex).

The Steadfast Determination feat (requires Endurance) lets you replace your Wis with Con for Will Saves.

Along with various other buffs, Kensai lets you replace Reflex Saves with Concentration checks.

Warblade can replace any Save with a Concentration check if you have the right manuevers. But be mindful that they're Immediate Actions, so you can only do so once per turn, and once per encounter (until you re-fill your manuevers). He can also get his Con to damage (twice!) with Greater Insightful Strike (once per encounter until you re-charge your manuevers).

If your DM lets you use 3.0 sources, be sure to buy a Hammer of Earth for Con to damage. But with full-ish BAB and Power Attack, you won't need it.

It's also worth mentioning that the Totemist (Magic of Incarnum) gets powers based on Con, in case you want a Con SAD build.

Put them together, and you get one heck of a Tank. Your AC (including your Touch AC) should be pretty ridiculous. Your Saves should be equally ridiculous, and it's not that hard to get Evasion (and Mettle, if you really care, but it's rarely useful).Found this. Seems to be exactly what you're looking for.

[Gwendol]

Why is not moving with the target a problem? It could be a source for provoking a bunch of AoO's. Besides, the idea is to bull rush them into solid objects or into other enemies (using Shocktrooper) and trip them. Then leap attack whatever is left of them into a pulp.

[Morph Bark]

Found this. Seems to be exactly what you're looking for.

I get more out of the other classes than I'd get out of Ranger, and Kensai is likely a no-go since we use altered magic item creation rules, which would mean I either can't take Kensai at all or it would be very expensive. (Kensai is awesome though, especially for unarmed attackers.) Plus there's the problem that you cannot make Concentration checks while raging.


Why is not moving with the target a problem? It could be a source for provoking a bunch of AoO's. Besides, the idea is to bull rush them into solid objects or into other enemies (using Shocktrooper) and trip them. Then leap attack whatever is left of them into a pulp.

My idea was to Bull Rush an enemy into a wall with each strike, thus invoking the Dungeoncrasher boost every single time.

...thinking about it, I am going to ask my DM if he allows ACF chaining, trading my second level Feat Rogue feat for Dungeoncrashing. But that all depends on finding something that allows moving along with an enemy when they are Bull Rushed with the Knockback feat.

[Gwendol]

Ah, you mean when charge/full attacking! You'll still be provoking plenty of AoO's (at least as DM I'd make sure you'd do).

[kardar233]

I just looked at Dungeonscape and there's nothing saying that you need to be moving with the enemy to get your Dungeoncrasher damage. It only says "...when making a bull rush. If you force an opponent into a wall or other solid object...." so Knockback should work.

Consider going Hood (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19872838/Little_Red_Raiding_Hood:_A_Tale_of_38;_Guide_to_th e_3.5_Dragoon) and smacking them straight down into the ground.

[Morph Bark]

Ah, you mean when charge/full attacking! You'll still be provoking plenty of AoO's (at least as DM I'd make sure you'd do).

Hence why I will be taking Skill Tricks that help with charging (like doing it over difficult terrain or making a 90 degree turn). :smallwink:


I just looked at Dungeonscape and there's nothing saying that you need to be moving with the enemy to get your Dungeoncrasher damage. It only says "...when making a bull rush. If you force an opponent into a wall or other solid object...." so Knockback should work.

I know it works. I simply wanted to move along so that they wouldn't fly out of my reach, so I could continue to pummel them. I doubt I'd be allowed to Bull Rush them into the ground...


I think I will just go with things as they are now and not try to pursue a method of moving along with them. With being Large during Rage, I might not even need that. I thought of trying to get Slippery Mind to cover my Will saves some since my Mettle is only for Fort saves, but it comes too late in classes and the ones that do get it often get Evasion, Uncanny Dodge or Mettle, so I ditched that idea.

Currently just need to wait for my DM to answer the questions I emailed to him.

[kardar233]

Well, you bull rush them away from you, right? If you use Battle Jump, jump way above them, fall down on them and smack them with Knockback, they should go pretty much straight down into the ground. If they go away from your landing spot, use your Shock Trooper adjustment to keep them in your range. Use a Spiked Chain for reach and threaten adjacent.

Rampaging Bull Rush will leave them prone once you bull rush them. You can qualify since you're a Goliath.

If you go War Hulk after you'll be able to hit everything in your reach on every one of your attacks, assuming they survived your sky-leaping-doom-pain-attack. You could also go Warblade for Adamantine Hurricane instead.

The Circle Mower (http://www.google.ca/url?q=http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19871834/Circle_Mower:_Deadliest_Warrior_Without_Magic_Item s%26post_num%3D2&sa=U&ei=BA_dTrCZCqOjiAKQoXw&ved=0CA8QFjAA&usg=AFQjCNGi9wD-6pJQnp5TnX9J_xBHjgWgrQ)is a good reference.

[FMArthur]

Oh, I didn't know about the Arctic template in Dragon... does it let you apply it to the UA Arctic races, by chance? I love making builds with obfuscating names. :smallbiggrin:

[ericgrau]

draconic 2 str con cha, +1 AC for 1 LA
Poisonous (DR350) is only 2 con for 3 LA but you get a strong poison bite with a con based save DC
stonbeboned (DR350) str +4, dex -4, con +4, 2 LA, also grants powerful build
voidmind (MM3) con +2 and a *million* other goodies for 3 LA, including a scaling high damage + stunning acid cone with a con based save DC.
lolth-touched (MM4), con+6 str +6, 1 LA, PC and player must be non-good. But if you're already a mineral warrior...


Deepwarden con to AC is capped by max dex to AC since it replaces dex, both by common sense and the FAQ clarification. Might as well pick something else and wear full plate unless you need light armor for some reason.

[Rubik]

draconic 2 str con cha, +1 AC for 1 LA
Poisonous (DR350) is only 2 con for 3 LA but you get a strong poison bite with a con based save DC
stonbeboned (DR350) str +4, dex -4, con +4, 2 LA, also grants powerful build
voidmind (MM3) con +2 and a *million* other goodies for 3 LA, including a scaling high damage + stunning acid cone with a con based save DC.
lolth-touched (MM4), con+6 str +6, 1 LA, PC and player must be non-good. But if you're already a mineral warrior...


Deepwarden con to AC is capped by max dex to AC since it replaces dex, both by common sense and the FAQ clarification. Might as well pick something else and wear full plate unless you need light armor for some reason.Or you have a low Strength (not likely in this case) or want movement skills/casting/mobility, though the second can be fixed via divine magic or psionics, and the last can be ejected via mount use.

[Morph Bark]

Another player in the same campaign just reminded me of Goliath being LA+1 and us being allowed only up to LA+1.

:smallfrown:

I considered switching to Dwarf and taking Deepwarden, but stopped halfway as it is such an incredible hassle with the skill points. I will draft up a build for her starting in Ranger like LittleBrother posted about, but since that will take away the Powerful Build and with it the Knockback, Mountain Rage, Bull Rush bonuses and everything, it will really change up the playstyle from "handing BBEGs an aggressive beatdown they will never forget" to "immovable mountain fortress".

I'll just remove the Mineral Warrior template from her... the ironic part is that doing that increases her Int to allow her enough skill points to get into Deepwarden, if it weren't for the fact that she's not a Dwarf. Though if we ever get this campaign far, I may just end up going for Stoneblessed -> Deepwarden if I don't go into Champion of Gwynharwyf instead.


On a rather unrelated note: can you charge while flying? (As in, with a fly speed.) If not, are there any good items that basically grant air walk or something similar for a decent amount of time?